2015-16 German Bundesliga Discussion Thread

[Det the Threat]

Frankfurt scores another one and thanks to it we're not at last place anymore.
At least till tomorrow.

And Zorniger will be in trouble fast given that his system doesn't include defending at all.

[postup]

Good win for Köln. Crazy second half.

[Kaiser30]

Wow, Dante not even in the lineup when no other CB is available. Bernat comes in.

I'm not that convinced this is a good move against a solid team like Leverkusen and a forward like Kießling upfront. Especially because games against Leverkusen have been one of the toughest in Bundesliga recently.

[Foye]

Wow, Dante not even in the lineup when no other CB is available. Bernat comes in.

I'm not that convinced this is a good move against a solid team like Leverkusen and a forward like Kießling upfront. Especially because games against Leverkusen have been one of the toughest in Bundesliga recently.

Dante's headed to Wolfsburg.

And Zorniger will be in trouble fast given that his system doesn't include defending at all.

Well, if you have to start Adam Hlousek at CB I wouldn't give a damn about defending either. The dude is a terrible left winger who they tried at left back last season a lot. Turned out he is a terrible left back, too. And now they were forced to play this dude at CB because the management was too incompetent to bring in a replacement for Rüdiger in time for the new season.

The result: 3 games, 3 losses, 10 goals conceeded.

[MaliBrah]

Lol pep isn't even bothering with centre backs sheesh. leverkusen's CFs should be ashamed lol

[Foye]

Lol pep isn't even bothering with centre backs sheesh. leverkusen's CFs should be ashamed lol

Because they have none available. Dante leaving, Benatia, Badstuber injured, Boateng sent off last week & Martinez not ready.

Sent from my GT-I9001 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[postup]

Stöger admitting that he would not have given that penalty against HSV.

[truth18]

How is Kuba? It seems we are interested in him.

If he's fit he's still going to run a ton, press emphatically, do pretty well at taking guys on on the flanks and deliver some solid crosses...if he's fit. More often than not now he's playing injured or is still working his way back into form from an injury. But he's a player I really like for his good two-way game and versatility (as he's played RB before and I think he'd make a good box to box midfielder)...even if injuries have taken their toll and he may not be as sharp in tight spaces as Tuchel wants his wide players to be.

Missed this sorry, Massi. Great summation CGF, I'll add that he will fit in well with Gala mentally. Dude is a **** warrior.

[Kaiser30]

Dante's headed to Wolfsburg.

Nothing imminent so far though, so it is a major hint that Pep doesn't trust Dante anymore. If he's not a starter when basically every other CB is not available, he should really look out for a move on Monday.
Although Dante has regressed a bit, I'm not that convinced it is the right move to sell him without buying another quality CB. Only having Boateng + 3 heavily injury prone true CB options is too risky in my opinion.

However, I have to admit that it worked really well against Leverkusen. Alaba was massive having 90 touches, winning more than 80% of his duels and also completing more than 90% of his passes. Another mastermind move by Pep relying on Alaba and Alonso against Leverkusen's heavy press. Leverkusen didn't even get into positions where they could have exposed Bayern's lack of size and strength at CB.

Well, if you have to start Adam Hlousek at CB I wouldn't give a damn about defending either. The dude is a terrible left winger who they tried at left back last season a lot. Turned out he is a terrible left back, too. And now they were forced to play this dude at CB because the management was too incompetent to bring in a replacement for Rüdiger in time for the new season.

The result: 3 games, 3 losses, 10 goals conceeded.

Did you see Dutt in Sport1 Doppelpass last Sunday?
The guests were also criticizing their CB pairing, especially Hlousek. Then Dutt answered that they were looking for a left-footed CB who is strong in duels both in the air and on the ground and also solid regarding build-up play. They came to the solution that those players are extremely rare and that they already have one in Hlousek.

Stöger admitting that he would not have given that penalty against HSV.

As much as I dislike Spahic, I also don't think it was a penalty and most definitely not a red card. Modeste was already out of rhythm and the chance basically over when Spahic slightly pushed him. So there was some contact, but in my opinion not enough to call a penalty.

[cgf]

The things Pep is doing with Alaba have massively changed my opinion of him. Alaba playing as a box-to-boxer from the LCB position in a back 3 has been simply brilliant.

[postup]

Agreed.
I thought the whole game plan was brilliant from the outset and stymied Leverkusen's ability to rely on counters.

[truth18]

The things Pep is doing with Alaba have massively changed my opinion of him. Alaba playing as a box-to-boxer from the LCB position in a back 3 has been simply brilliant.

Agreed.
I thought the whole game plan was brilliant from the outset and stymied Leverkusen's ability to rely on counters.

Oh yeah, what a genius mind it took to figure out that might work well. And its not like they were playing an elite team. Bayer had trouble with a horrid looking Lazio for christ's sake.

Can we please stop with all the continuing Pep worship? Someone please explain to me in as much detail possible (Foye/CGF/Det, I'm looking at you), how he has improved the club more than Mourhino or hell, even a Simeone or Rodgers/AVB (super annoying person, but if he had the money and squad Pep inherited, would he really do worse?) could?

Yes I am being a bit hyperbolic, but that's because everyone told me right before Pep came to our league that my predictions of a slight downturn due to general misdirection of the squad/the culture they had at the time and selling/buying of the wrong type of players was entirely wrong. That Bayern was a special squad in its "prime" that wouldn't become less special with his influence. Some people even said he would win the CL because of Pep's "talents".

Bayern's core was so talented that they haven't crumbled in any sense, but they are winning in spite of management, and arguably, Jupp did better during his last run with the team. Way more legitimate competition in the league compared to the past two years, and he knew not to **** with things too much.

Pep is overrated. He is Wenger/Scolari level overrated. I really don't understand why you guys don't see this still. I expect that once again, few will agree with me here, but perhaps one or two Bundesliga fans here have seen the light. To those that don't, again: I want to here what good exactly he has done for the club. Can't wait for him to actually straight up fail in his next position. Mediocre manager with liquid gold luck.



Edit: oh, and yeah, CGF, I PMed you regarding our lysergic discussion the other day.

Postup:

What club do your support in the league (if any)? I see you are primarily a Spurs fan, but the way you have talked about things, I assume you follow a club in the Bundesliga as well?

[postup]

The things Pep is doing with Alaba have massively changed my opinion of him. Alaba playing as a box-to-boxer from the LCB position in a back 3 has been simply brilliant.

Agreed.
I thought the whole game plan was brilliant from the outset and stymied Leverkusen's ability to rely on counters.

Oh yeah, what a genius mind it took to figure out that might work well. And its not like they were playing an elite team. Bayer had trouble with a horrid looking Lazio for christ's sake.

Can we please stop with all the continuing Pep worship? Someone please explain to me in as much detail possible (Foye/CGF/Det, I'm looking at you), how he has improved the club more than Mourhino or hell, even a Simeone or Rodgers/AVB (super annoying person, but if he had the money and squad Pep inherited, would he really do worse?) could?

Yes I am being a bit hyperbolic, but that's because everyone told me right before Pep came to our league that my predictions of a slight downturn due to general misdirection of the squad/the culture they had at the time and selling/buying of the wrong type of players was entirely wrong. That Bayern was a special squad in its "prime" that wouldn't become less special with his influence. Some people even said he would win the CL because of Pep's "talents".

Bayern's core was so talented that they haven't crumbled in any sense, but they are winning in spite of management, and arguably, Jupp did better during his last run with the team. Way more legitimate competition in the league compared to the past two years, and he knew not to **** with things too much.

Pep is overrated. He is Wenger/Scolari level overrated. I really don't understand why you guys don't see this still. I expect that once again, few will agree with me here, but perhaps one or two Bundesliga fans here have seen the light. To those that don't, again: I want to here what good exactly he has done for the club. Can't wait for him to actually straight up fail in his next position. Mediocre manager with liquid gold luck.



Edit: oh, and yeah, CGF, I PMed you regarding our lysergic discussion the other day.

Postup:

What club do your support in the league (if any)? I see you are primarily a Spurs fan, but the way you have talked about things, I assume you follow a club in the Bundesliga as well?

Alright, easy there. All I said was that the game plan was a good one; perhaps "brilliant" was leaning towards hyperbole on my end, as well. Semantics aside, I do think it might show some development/evolution in terms of tactics.

Aside from that, I don't even disagree that strongly with much of what you have to say. In fact, I would argue that the entire Dr. Muller-Wohlfahrt affair was indicative of a culture crumble. The fact that management's public support ("If he moves on we'll be OK" - forgot who said it and I'm too lazy right now to dig up the Kicker issue) was lukewarm at best also spoke volumes. And I still have the feeling that Klopp's sabbatical is more than coincidental...

At the end of last season I would not have been surprised if there had been a parting of ways. This is the make-it-or-break-it year and a Bundesliga Meisterschaft alone won't cut it. As you pointed out, the BL competition leaves much to be desired.

Having said all of that, perhaps Pep has learnt some lessons. In many ways this must have been a bit of a sobering experience for Pep himself, too. But I'd pick him over Scolari any time of day...

Re. your question about myself: 1. FC Köln through and through (which is ironic given that I grew up an hour outside of Munich). I had to list Spurs as they are my favourite EPL team and RealGM never updated their BL teams last season, meaning that Köln, as a recent Aufsteiger last year, wasn't even listed as an option. And trust me, I've messaged the powers-that-be at RealGM plenty of times about it. I should check if this year's BL teams list has been updated.

[postup]

Just checked the Profile page and Preferences options still not updated for BL. Now two years out-of-date, which is good news for Braunschweig and Nurnberg fans, but not for Koln, Ingolstadt, etc.

Sent another email but not holding my breath...

[cgf]

Kewl Beans, I'll try and answer your pm sometime soon.

As for the Pep:
I think it is important to not just look at the last year of Jupp's time there when judging the team that Pep took over as almost the exact same core who won the treble had twice failed to even win the league before that final season of glory. That treble side was going to win err'thing in sight that season even if they had to go through a time warp that saw them facing all of the greatest teams in history. You can't just look at that level of dedication, focus and drive; and then expect that type of magical season to be repeated year after year. Especially since that success meant that for many in the core some of that hunger that have driven them to that incredible season had been satiated. So they were going to need to make some changes to keep everyone fully focused and motivated.

These are the reason why we haven't seen a club repeating as champions of europe for a long time; but for Bayern they were amplified because that victory came so heavily influence by the heartbreak that came the season before. That's why early in the season it was clear that Bayern were not going to be stopped...Not that they were favorites, or even heavy favorites...but that they just would not allow themselves to be stopped that year. And that takes a special set of circumstances to create in a team with as many egos as FC Hollywood. Then there's the simple fact that they've been dealing with unreal amounts of injuries the past two years, last season their injured list could go to toe-to-toe with yours and Schalkes, yet they once again waltz'd to teh league and the CL semifinal.

Now that you have the "excuses"...which again it seems silly to say that a man who has won back to back league titles while making it to the CL SF and adding a domestic crown needs to make for his first two seasons at a club; especially a club that had lost the title two of the previous three seasons...I'm just impressed by the creativity with which he solves the fear with which teams face bayern. I love Tuchel and Favre and rate them over Pep, but as a BVB fan you've seen how different it is when everyone parks the bus against you versus when teams will come out and play with you. Most teams haven't come out and played against Bayern in ages, so as a coach of that team he has to even more emphasis finding attacking solutions to solve any degree of defending than Favre does coaching a Gladbach side who can defend deeply and lure teams out if their possession game isn't piercing the bus that they face.

As for his specific decisions I don't want to re-hash Lahm at the 6 for the billionth time but that was a move I agreed with and had been championing before Pep was even on the scene. So to me that was an impressive creative decision that Mourinho would never have the courage to make. Similarly him moving Alaba into positions were he can have even more influence over the match than he does stuck out at LB; first at the 8 like I had been championing and where he plays for his NT, and now as that box-to-box CB he is using him as that I didn't think would work as spectacularly as it has.

A fit Robben is still the guy for that team who can most dominate a game, and a healthy Thiago is spectacular as well, while Lewy is the msot complete striker in the sport; but Alaba is the most special and interesting talent that they have to me. I've been arguing that he's every bit as gifted a young #8 as Pogba, Veratti and Ilkay since Ilkay was still the best one of that trio; so the Pep's use of Alaba is something that has swayed me significantly after having my doubts...only every seeing his Barca sides in the CL because I didn't watch La Liga at that time.

I have no idea what this season will bring, but I think Pep managed to take over a veteran core coming off of a magical season that wasn't going to be repeated, and rode out the transitional period very successfully and now has a younger core that I think can accomplish even more brilliant heights than the core that Jupp won with could've. Shame that Javi seems to be built from similar material to Badstuber, Ribery, Robben and Schweini. If he could stay fit that would be huge for them achieving the success that they need to for Pep's era to be a true success, but he's impressed with many of his details and decisions.

Not even getting into just how much I appreciate his courage to mold his tactics to best utilize the talents he has to achieve his strategic goals. You don't see that kind of genuine creativity from Mourinho/Klopp/Jupp/Ancelotti. And I think that is something that does this sport on the whole a great deal of good. As so many in this game are so cowardly about adopting new tactics/philosophies until they have seen them implemented by a top side, because so many lack the ability to envision what can/will work, leaving them to rely on what has worked.

So there's why I have become a "Pep fan" or apologist, depending on your perspective...still more impressed by Favre and Tuchel; but the spaniard has won me over. I'm not entirely sober, tired and trying not to wake someone up before we need to start getting ready to go; so I apologize for the run-on sentences and repetitive syntax. May fix in the morning if it turns out to be worse than I think it is atm.

[truth18]

The things Pep is doing with Alaba have massively changed my opinion of him. Alaba playing as a box-to-boxer from the LCB position in a back 3 has been simply brilliant.

Agreed.
I thought the whole game plan was brilliant from the outset and stymied Leverkusen's ability to rely on counters.

Oh yeah, what a genius mind it took to figure out that might work well. And its not like they were playing an elite team. Bayer had trouble with a horrid looking Lazio for christ's sake.

---

---

Postup:

What club do your support in the league (if any)? I see you are primarily a Spurs fan, but the way you have talked about things, I assume you follow a club in the Bundesliga as well?

Alright, easy there. All I said was that the game plan was a good one; perhaps "brilliant" was leaning towards hyperbole on my end, as well. Semantics aside, I do think it might show some development/evolution in terms of tactics.

Aside from that, I don't even disagree that strongly with much of what you have to say. In fact, I would argue that the entire Dr. Muller-Wohlfahrt affair was indicative of a culture crumble. The fact that management's public support ("If he moves on we'll be OK" - forgot who said it and I'm too lazy right now to dig up the Kicker issue) was lukewarm at best also spoke volumes. And I still have the feeling that Klopp's sabbatical is more than coincidental...

At the end of last season I would not have been surprised if there had been a parting of ways. This is the make-it-or-break-it year and a Bundesliga Meisterschaft alone won't cut it. As you pointed out, the BL competition leaves much to be desired.

Having said all of that, perhaps Pep has learnt some lessons. In many ways this must have been a bit of a sobering experience for Pep himself, too. But I'd pick him over Scolari any time of day...

Re. your question about myself: 1. FC Köln through and through (which is ironic given that I grew up an hour outside of Munich). I had to list Spurs as they are my favourite EPL team and RealGM never updated their BL teams last season, meaning that Köln, as a recent Aufsteiger last year, wasn't even listed as an option. And trust me, I've messaged the powers-that-be at RealGM plenty of times about it. I should check if this year's BL teams list has been updated.

Haha, NP, was mostly talking about the Buli regulars in this thread and other realgmsoccer posters giving him way too much praise when he joined Bayern. I like you anyone who can admit that about Pep is alright with me.

Agree fully with the bold. I don't think Klopp expected Pep to make stuff worse there either, I think he really meant it when he said Dortmund/Germany is where his heart is, but at some point, was approached by Bayern and had to accept the "offer". Idk, probably tin foil hat ****, but he didn't seem the type to take a year off to me.

Man, that's some bs about Koln. Hope they updated it, if not, hope they do soon.

Edit: I checked. Still not there

[truth18]

Kewl Beans, I'll try and answer your pm sometime soon.

So there's why I have become a "Pep fan" or apologist, depending on your perspective...still more impressed by Favre and Tuchel; but the spaniard has won me over. I'm not entirely sober, tired and trying not to wake someone up before we need to start getting ready to go; so I apologize for the run-on sentences and repetitive syntax. May fix in the morning if it turns out to be worse than I think it is atm.

Lol, I'm an editor/I work in the writing/publishing industry. Your posts (including the one above) are far past the normal message board level of grammar, coherency and organization. Likely better than most of mine too, haha. You don't need to worry about that, man, all your stuff reads well (in fact, the soccer board seems to have an overall high understanding of how to write effectively. Perhaps, as Turco has insinuated before, this is due to many here not speaking English as a first language, or growing up with multiple languages. Foye, Det, etc are also nice to read.

As far as your response:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Bonus:

Spoiler:

Yeah, I'll write a real response tomorrow, pretty intoxicated atm. You make some good points, but I still feel he is just a lucky person who made the best of it. Give him the Spurs/Gunners/AM of the past five years and he doesn't win anything.

But yeah just read the pm whenever, its super short, won't take long to respond, just a question.

[Foye]

Did you see Dutt in Sport1 Doppelpass last Sunday?
The guests were also criticizing their CB pairing, especially Hlousek. Then Dutt answered that they were looking for a left-footed CB who is strong in duels both in the air and on the ground and also solid regarding build-up play. They came to the solution that those players are extremely rare and that they already have one in Hlousek.

Unfortunately, I have missed the one time Doppelpass guests have offered competent analysis then haha.

Seriously, starting Hlousek at CB (who is not even Bundesliga caliber at his best position in my opinion) is ridiculous.

[Kaiser30]

Unfortunately, I have missed the one time Doppelpass guests have offered competent analysis then haha.

Seriously, starting Hlousek at CB (who is not even Bundesliga caliber at his best position in my opinion) is ridiculous.

Yeah I agree. I haven't seen that much of Zorniger's highly criticized defensive tactics yet, but the individual quality of their whole defense alone is very questionable IMO. And I think Tyton has not provided any stability so far, he looks like a below average GK, not only because of the red card yesterday. Neither is he some magician with incredible reflexes nor is he very good at clearing crosses, distributing the ball, etc. Unfortunately, Langerak who had some good games for Dortmund has had bad luck with injuries so far because he should be their clear-cut No. 1 option.

However, Dutt also argued that they decided to sell Rüdiger because they believe in Baumgartl and his possibly even superior potential. In my opinion, they could have easily played together and Rüdiger would surely be their best CB. I'm not that convinced Timo Baumgartl is anything special or even has that much potential. Rüdiger is incredibly athletic, a rare ability which is only matched by someone like Boateng. This kid has SERIOUS potential and is deservedfully a part of the - let's say - "pool" of German national team players.
One of the journalists - I think he works at "Die Welt" and had good some good points and insights on several topics - then added that Rüdiger has some bad habits and his standing within the team was more or less non-existent. That seems to be a much proper reason why they decided to sell him because they could really use his qualities and Roma's offer was not even that good, not the level of Son to Spurs where you simply have no choice but to accept.

[Foye]

Unfortunately, I have missed the one time Doppelpass guests have offered competent analysis then haha.

Seriously, starting Hlousek at CB (who is not even Bundesliga caliber at his best position in my opinion) is ridiculous.

Yeah I agree. I haven't seen that much of Zorniger's highly criticized defensive tactics yet, but the individual quality of their whole defense alone is very questionable IMO. And I think Tyton has not provided any stability so far, he looks like a below average GK, not only because of the red card yesterday. Neither is he some magician with incredible reflexes nor is he very good at clearing crosses, distributing the ball, etc. Unfortunately, Langerak who had some good games for Dortmund has had bad luck with injuries so far because he should be their clear-cut No. 1 option.

However, Dutt also argued that they decided to sell Rüdiger because they believe in Baumgartl and his possibly even superior potential. In my opinion, they could have easily played together and Rüdiger would surely be their best CB. I'm not that convinced Timo Baumgartl is anything special or even has that much potential. Rüdiger is incredibly athletic, a rare ability which is only matched by someone like Boateng. This kid has SERIOUS potential and is deservedfully a part of the - let's say - "pool" of German national team players.
One of the journalists - I think he works at "Die Welt" and had good some good points and insights on several topics - then added that Rüdiger has some bad habits and his standing within the team was more or less non-existent. That seems to be a much proper reason why they decided to sell him because they could really use his qualities and Roma's offer was not even that good, not the level of Son to Spurs where you simply have no choice but to accept.

Actually, that red card for Tyton might be a blessing in disguise. I never understood why for all these years now Vlachodimos never got a chance despite mediocre Ulreich. Vlachodimos has played in Germany's under NTs for a couple years in a row. He can't be that bad but he is rotting on Stuttgart 2nd team and bench for years. Now he'll at least get the Hertha game to show himself.

Baumgartl is pretty terrible right now. He was involved in multiple goals yesterday just like Hlousek.
Worst one was the 1-4. First, he plays a terrible pass right to an Eintracht player. Then he moves out trying to correct his mistake, making an even bigger mistake (than the bad pass) by leaving his man Castaignos completely alone. Then he even regained momentum (as Castaignos did a poor job going at the goal) but is afraid of making a serious tackle in the box.
You hardly see such a chain of mistakes from a single player in a row on Kreisliga level.

Man of the match was Harnik, though. I'd tell him to go find himself a new club or play for 2nd team the remainder of the season after yesterdays performance. Misses repeatedly from inside the goalkeepers area and doesn't bother to even jog back (right, normally you would sprint back - but he didn't even start jogging) when losing the ball at the halfway line.

It seems like Wolfsburg will not only grab Dante but also Praet from Anderlecht. I like him but I don't know why they didn't go for Tielemans, too.