European Super League (Indefinitely Suspended)

[HIF]

If Duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA, Arizona did something similar, it would certainly create a ton of it.

College teams/universities have the same type of tribalism among fans in the States, that Football clubs have throughout Europe.

I think that would be self-destructive for them, so that's why they are not even thinking about it. NCAA would suffer a little in the short term, and those universities will lose a ton of money.

Ok, let's compare it to the NBA. Imagine the NBA reduced the playoff spots to 4 for each conference where the 3 richest teams had a guaranteed spot in the Playoffs EVERY YEAR and the other 12 Teams had to fight for the remaining spot. Besides that, the Teams with a guaranteed spot would have no salary cap, could spent as much as they want to and had no roster spot restrictions. Of course, revenue sharing would also be changed so that only the playoff teams would share the cake by themselves with the other teams getting peanuts. THAT'S THE SUPER LEAGUE!!! It would ruin everything. The rich would get richer while the others would have no chances of surviving.

Nice explanation.

[wco81]

Thank god Bayern Munich made it official to no participate in the super league, i was allready exploring a new favorite professional team to root for and came to a closure of having close to thirty years of support ripped out of my identity.

Bayern's hierarchy is full of people with a background in the game of football who understand the moral implications of a walled garden league. Many of these so-called big 12 clubs are run by carpetbaggers, investment bankers and oil fascists.

Is that a definite no or are they still considering it?

[Baphomet]

Firstly, I'll preface this by saying that I find the concept of the ESL abhorrent and am staunchly opposed to it. I'm bitterly disappointed that Spurs are involved in this, and I don't know a single fan who thinks that we belong in such a league, even conceptually.

However, I'm finding it hard to sympathise with the moral indignity of some organisations and members of the press. Sky suddenly has the nerve to say that they oppose this, despite stoking the fires of this "big 6" nonsense in the Premier League for ages? You butter these clubs up for decades then act surprised that they think they're better than they are? Sky can go **** themselves too.

As for Leipzig...

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Anybody else enjoying the irony of kommerzverein like Leipzig suddenly taking a moral stance about sporting competition?

UEFA had to have known this was coming. When you allow the likes of Abramovich, Sheikh Mansour, etc. to financially dope their clubs beyond recognition, and to run amok in various competitions unsanctioned with absolute impunity, you surely cannot be surprised when they want to take their ball and go home? I have no sympathy for this farce of an organisation.

[Baphomet]

Thank god Bayern Munich made it official to no participate in the super league, i was allready exploring a new favorite professional team to root for and came to a closure of having close to thirty years of support ripped out of my identity.

Bayern's hierarchy is full of people with a background in the game of football who understand the moral implications of a walled garden league. Many of these so-called big 12 clubs are run by carpetbaggers, investment bankers and oil fascists.

Is that a definite no or are they still considering it?

I was under the impression that they and other German clubs were strongly opposed to the ESL. They've released statements indicating as much.

However, if they still end up joining feel free to disregard what I said.

[Drax]

Thank god Bayern Munich made it official to no participate in the super league, i was allready exploring a new favorite professional team to root for and came to a closure of having close to thirty years of support ripped out of my identity.

Bayern's hierarchy is full of people with a background in the game of football who understand the moral implications of a walled garden league. Many of these so-called big 12 clubs are run by carpetbaggers, investment bankers and oil fascists.

Is that a definite no or are they still considering it?

Its a no. The headline on FC Bayern's official website: FC Bayern sagt Nein zur Super League.

Translation: FC Bayern says no to the super league.

https://fcbayern.com/en/news/2021/04/european-super-league-statements-by-hainer-and-rummenigge

[Sedale Threatt]

I remember how some American Friends of mine had a hard time understanding why English sports had "draws" (that's ties for you North Americans) in all of their sports. Culturally they couldn't understand that for us winning wasn't the point of sport, only a target and not having a winner even after 5 days - like in Test Match Cricket - was not a problem for us.

In the states has there been a movement to get soccer to have extra time until a winner is found in each match?

This will happen at some point lol. The NHL (Hockey) made this change, in which ties (draws) use to be a thing. But now there's a 5 minute OT period, followed by a Shootout to determine a winner.

It's very true. Americans hate ties in their sports. Culturally, it's very un-American.

It’s actually the exact opposite, at least in MLS. They started out with shootouts to settle all draws, including regular season matches, but they scrapped it within 3-4 years because of fan backlash. They — correctly — viewed it as a gimmick and wanted something closer to the real thing. You hear rumblings about bringing it back every now and then but for the most part fans seem very satisfied with the current 3/1/0 format used everywhere else in the world.

[Rasho Brezec]

Bayern's hierarchy is full of people with a background in the game of football who understand the moral implications of a walled garden league. Many of these so-called big 12 clubs are run by carpetbaggers, investment bankers and oil fascists.

Is that a definite no or are they still considering it?

I was under the impression that they and other German clubs were strongly opposed to the ESL. They've released statements indicating as much.

However, if they still end up joining feel free to disregard what I said.

Why would they join? It's a free path to winning Bundesliga and Champions League every season.

[Sedale Threatt]

Tottenham just fixed their problem: Mourinho. I think they will be fine.
Arsenal need to get their act together and fix their recruiting and probably a better manager. The player recruitment will be a bit easier since they will always play in the top competition.
For Arsenal in particular I think it's better to be 15th in SL, than to be in Europa League every year.
In the long run they will need a salary cap and a CBA similar to NBA, but for now the 12-15 founding members are in similar size markets(except for London and Paris).

As an Arsenal fan, I'm actually looking at it from a totally different perspective. That's just more money for Stan Kroenke (net worth: 8.2 billion) to not spend on players, so why the hell would I care?

Or to put in his pocket.

Exactly.

[Foye]

Firstly, I'll preface this by saying that I find the concept of the ESL abhorrent and am staunchly opposed to it. I'm bitterly disappointed that Spurs are involved in this, and I don't know a single fan who thinks that we belong in such a league, even conceptually.

However, I'm finding it hard to sympathise with the moral indignity of some organisations and members of the press. Sky suddenly has the nerve to say that they oppose this, despite stoking the fires of this "big 6" nonsense in the Premier League for ages? You butter these clubs up for decades then act surprised that they think they're better than they are? Sky can go **** themselves too.

As for Leipzig...

Read on Twitter

Anybody else enjoying the irony of kommerzverein like Leipzig suddenly taking a moral stance about sporting competition?

UEFA had to have known this was coming. When you allow the likes of Abramovich, Sheikh Mansour, etc. to financially dope their clubs beyond recognition, and to run amok in various competitions unsanctioned with absolute impunity, you surely cannot be surprised when they want to take their ball and go home? I have no sympathy for this farce of an organisation.

Leipzig fairplay here. If Mateschitz really became serious all the other owners would have no chance in their own Super League.
Dude is wealthier than all the Abramovichs and Mansours.

[Mamba81p]

If Duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA, Arizona did something similar, it would certainly create a ton of it.

College teams/universities have the same type of tribalism among fans in the States, that Football clubs have throughout Europe.

I think that would be self-destructive for them, so that's why they are not even thinking about it. NCAA would suffer a little in the short term, and those universities will lose a ton of money.

Ok, let's compare it to the NBA. Imagine the NBA reduced the playoff spots to 4 for each conference where the 3 richest teams had a guaranteed spot in the Playoffs EVERY YEAR and the other 12 Teams had to fight for the remaining spot. Besides that, the Teams with a guaranteed spot would have no salary cap, could spent as much as they want to and had no roster spot restrictions. Of course, revenue sharing would also be changed so that only the playoff teams would share the cake by themselves with the other teams getting peanuts. THAT'S THE SUPER LEAGUE!!! It would ruin everything. The rich would get richer while the others would have no chances of surviving.

That is just a horrible example. You guys keep accusing us of not understanding, even though we do, and not knowing what are we talking about, but give examples like this
NBA in it's entirety is the super league, not your example, and according to you the soccer "purists" the NBA is the bad guy: elitist, anti-competitive etc.

- NBA needs a super majority in order to make changes, so that cannot happen
- what you are saying is equivalent to contraction, that is a tragedy for any major league in the US. League generally expand, and add more teams, not fewer.
- NBA shares it's revenue, because they need the small markets to be successful, because in the end that generates MONEY for them. They are just as "greedy" as the super league owners in that regard.
- in your example those rich franchises will LOSE money, and that is the difference. super league wants to make money, not to lose them. that's how we got here, they are losing money.

[Mamba81p]

It wouldn't make sense financially for them, so they won't do it. It all comes down to money. The reason why people are outraged of the SuperLeague is that would be very successful and take that money away from everybody else. The NCAA tournament would be just as popular without those few universities. We just had a tournament without Duke and Kentucky.

If they would do that in the basketball tournament they would shoot themselves in the foot, and people would simply stop watching, and continue to watch the NCAA tournament. There is already an elite league where the best play, it's called NBA. Americans don't like to watch multiple league that do the same thing. NBA is for elite players, NCAA is for amateurs. They are 2 different things.

Another thing is NCAA is self sustaining, they don't need money from NBA to survive. The problem in Europe is that a lot of leagues are not self sustaining, and they need the money from UEFA/ local authorities to survive, and that where I breakaway. If you are not self sustaining, you should not exist, simple economics. If a local team is so popular, then the fans can sustain it. Buy the tickets, buy the merchandise, in other words, put your money where your mouth is. There are a lot of teams begging for money from the authorities. They don't have a sewer system, but they put money into football, it's crazy.

Not at all. At least not for the fans.

Nobody besides the fans of those 12 clubs is against the Super League. Our problem is that they want to continue playing in their national championships without having any sporting interest and eliminate the international competitions. Our problem is that they want to enlargen the gap between them and the rest of Europe. If they wanted to leave the UEFA and create their own League I could care less. Of course I'd miss the old Liverpool and the old Man Utd but it wouldn't be a tragedy.

You're wasting your time the guy is incapable of understanding the problem as we see it.

I can say the same about you. See how it goes? It's a two way street. Seems like you don't like debates, maybe you should not be on a forum.

[The_Brecht]

You can't compare football with NBA, NFL or whatever closed system in the US.
Football comes from within the communities. Clubs were build by people, some of them working class, some of the more upper class.
When a football club plays, life in the city/town/village stands still. It's all about the result. People are delighted when their club wins, devestated when their club loses. The fear of relegation, the suspense of a possible promotion, ... it's something special.

This is just such a shame.

[Mamba81p]

So what would the outrage be if the big college teams would just do a "Super March Madness League" and only allow a select few other universities to occassionally take part in it?

It wouldn't make sense financially for them, so they won't do it. It all comes down to money. The reason why people are outraged of the SuperLeague is that would be very successful and take that money away from everybody else. The NCAA tournament would be just as popular without those few universities. We just had a tournament without Duke and Kentucky.

If they would do that in the basketball tournament they would shoot themselves in the foot, and people would simply stop watching, and continue to watch the NCAA tournament. There is already an elite league where the best play, it's called NBA. Americans don't like to watch multiple league that do the same thing. NBA is for elite players, NCAA is for amateurs. They are 2 different things.

Another thing is NCAA is self sustaining, they don't need money from NBA to survive. The problem in Europe is that a lot of leagues are not self sustaining, and they need the money from UEFA/ local authorities to survive, and that where I breakaway. If you are not self sustaining, you should not exist, simple economics. If a local team is so popular, then the fans can sustain it. Buy the tickets, buy the merchandise, in other words, put your money where your mouth is. There are a lot of teams begging for money from the authorities. They don't have a sewer system, but they put money into football, it's crazy.

Not at all. At least not for the fans.

Nobody besides the fans of those 12 clubs is against the Super League. Our problem is that they want to continue playing in their national championships without having any sporting interest and eliminate the international competitions. Our problem is that they want to enlargen the gap between them and the rest of Europe. If they wanted to leave the UEFA and create their own League I could care less. Of course I'd miss the old Liverpool and the old Man Utd but it wouldn't be a tragedy.

I understand that how much money the premier league makes doesn't matter for fans, and it shouldn't. They don't get anything from that pie.

But the other clubs I think they are aware of the money they are going to lose by kicking those teams out. Otherwise they would have no issue to kick them out. If they know the super league is going to be a disaster financially, and that people will continue to watch only CL and PL, they would kick them out today, with no reservations.

As Pep said today, everyone thinks only about themselves. All this "greater good" is mostly pr talk. If Everton and Leicester and West Ham would think that PL and CL would generate roughly the same revenue, and even a 10-20% reduction they would sign for it, but I think they know that won't be the case.
We have the example in Scotland and what happened there once Rangers were removed from the PFL. What would have happened if both Celtics and Rangers were removed?

[Baphomet]

Leipzig fairplay here. If Mateschitz really became serious all the other owners would have no chance in their own Super League.
Dude is wealthier than all the Abramovichs and Mansours.

I agree completely on this point, and I suppose Red Bull is a huge sporting dynasty at this point and their funding is spread across a number of different sports and projects. I actually enjoy how Leipzig play and build through youth, but their rise through the domestic leagues can't really be called organic or in the interest of sporting competition.

[Jack Dempsey]

That is just a horrible example. You guys keep accusing us of not understanding, even though we do, and not knowing what are we talking about, but give examples like this
NBA in it's entirety is the super league, not your example, and according to you the soccer "purists" the NBA is the bad guy: elitist, anti-competitive etc.

See, you don't understand it. Are the Lakers playing in an Californian Basketball League besides the NBA? Are the Rockets playing in a Texan League? No, they are not. But those Super League bastards want to continue playing in their national Leagues besides their SL. I could care less if they just want to leave the UEFA and form their own League but I'm not ok with making the traditional competitions meaningless and enlargening the gap between them and the rest of Europe. You are acting like we're pissed because they don't want to play with the other Teams anymore which is bull. Gary Neville, Sir Alex Ferguson, Stan Collimore, the german Bundesliga said it straight out - KICK THEM OUT!!! And if they want to come back, let them start at the bottom again.

- NBA needs a super majority in order to make changes, so that cannot happen

And in Europe the majority is against this concept starting with the UEFA, national Associations, national goverments, fans, media, former and active players, EVEN BOARD MEMBERS OF THAT 12 TEAMS!!! It's basically just the 10 or 12 greedy owners of those Teams and a couple of Vultures that support this idea.

- what you are saying is equivalent to contraction, that is a tragedy for any major league in the US. League generally expand, and add more teams, not fewer.

Exactly!!! And that is what is happening in Europe. They are basically ruining everything outside of those 12 Clubs. What's the point in a meaningless competition?

- NBA shares it's revenue, because they need the small markets to be successful, because in the end that generates MONEY for them. They are just as "greedy" as the super league owners in that regard.

Yes and in Europe the big 12 are trying to eliminate all the other Teams and take the money for themselves. The Premier League won't work with 6 Teams playing Friendly games all season long.

- in your example those rich franchises will LOSE money, and that is the difference. super league wants to make money, not to lose them. that's how we got here, they are losing money.

They are losing money because of bad management. Real Madrid spent €355 mil in the Summer of '19. MONEY THEY DIDN'T HAVE!!! And now Perez is telling us his club is in huge debts? I'm shocked.

[LondonCeltics]

Absolutely outrageous not just the premise of this but the way this has been 'announced'. Completely lacking in good faith by not consulting/co-operating with the domestic leagues, UEFA and FIFA and a complete disregard for the effects it would have on the thousands of other professional football clubs in Europe and the entire football pyramids/institutions and even grass-root levels of the game here in Europe.

This is nothing more than a unilateral closed shop, determined by money/brand power and not merit to increase profit for the richest clubs in the world, and therefore, mostly foreign owners. This is not saving the game, this is not taking it to the next level. Out of the six clubs in question in England, Tottenham and Arsenal are not even in the top 6 of the table currently! I am not being xenophobic by saying this, it's just the reality of what this is. Shouldn't be a shock that foreign oligarchs and American outfits would do this, so many of them have invested to make money. Sports clubs are not regular businesses, they are pillars of local communities and that sentiment and history is I am afraid, rare in places like the US. Not only would this adversely affect all the other thousands of clubs but the real fans of these clubs just won't want this.

By the way, I am not trying to make this an anti-US/you don't get it rant. I'm sure many Americans would be just as irked if something like this happened there. One of the reasons I love American sports is that they are designed to avoid this sort of thing through salary caps, trading players not buying them and the way the drafts work. Imagine if the Lakers, Celtics, Nets and Clippers (despite their complete lack of historic success) and Miami Heat decided they would create a new basketball league, expect to stay in the NBA but perhaps play less games and in their new league (which no other clubs can join) be free of salary caps. Would that go down well?

One thing I am buoyed by though is the united front in Europe against this. Loads of clubs here in Britain today have condemned this, tonnes of legends of the games have condemned it and the local fans of some of these clubs (i.e. not the arm chair fans who don't support their local clubs and just watch football through a tele) have turned up to protest.

I reckon this probably won't go ahead and is just a power play linked to frustrations over CL reform. They're going to have to get passed national governments taking legal action to block it (as Bo Jo has said he would), UEFA and FIFA's legal options which include banning players involved from playing internationally, their own players also speaking out against it and all their local based fans (who actually turn up at the ground) being pissed off.

Again, outrageous and a slap in the face of a British institution that formed in 1885 and includes 92 professional teams. As I've typed this, sounds like it's kicking off a bit outside Stamford Bridge with Fulham Road blocked up by 500 fans or so.

[Speadge]

It started ...

Chelsea set to pull out of European Super League!
This is huge news. Our Chelsea correspondent, Jacob Steinberg, reports that Chelsea are preparing a communication to the European Super League to tell them they are withdrawing. That will surely be the beginning of the end of the ESL proposals. Chelsea fans have begun to disperse so perhaps Cech really was relating news that the club were going to pull out.

Source: https://www.theguardian.com

[LondonCeltics]

Man City apparently pulling out too. This is brilliant. Power to the people!

[Mamba81p]

By the way, I am not trying to make this an anti-US/you don't get it rant. I'm sure many Americans would be just as irked if something like this happened there. One of the reasons I love American sports is that they are designed to avoid this sort of thing through salary caps, trading players not buying them and the way the drafts work. Imagine if the Lakers, Celtics, Nets and Clippers (despite their complete lack of historic success) and Miami Heat decided they would create a new basketball league, expect to stay in the NBA but perhaps play less games and in their new league (which no other clubs can join) be free of salary caps. Would that go down well?

The difference is NBA is maximizing their revenues/profits. UEFA is not doing that for the clubs.
There is no need for Lakers to go on a separate root, when staying with the NBA is the best possible way for their business. There is a reason why the NBA/NFL are stable financially, and the european clubs are on the brinks of bankruptcy: salary cap.

You cannot do a salary cap in UEFA. You need a CBA and a professional league to do that. You can do it in the Premier League, but every league would need to do it, to have an effect. Financial fair-play stopped the madness for a short time, but I don't think it's enough
Now there is a race to the top in terms of players salaries/prices, and I don't see that stopping. With the way the pandemic goes in Europe, probably they will not have full stadiums for another year, and the financial disaster will be there for everyone to see.

[Speadge]

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