Game 11 vs Minny

[Slim Charless]

The year is 2032 and Ayton is on his 4 team and 7th head coach... people will still be talking about how if he only had a coach who would use him correctly he would dominate.

It's been the same song and dance since his Arizona days. Dude just is who he is, which isn't a bad player just probably not what some believe he can be.



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He's already been a very good player in the playoffs when it matters the most. It's not like people expect much more out of him. Just be more consistent I guess. He should have been pretty good in Arizona as well to warrant a 1st pick in the draft.

The problem is Luka of course. If he wasn't there or if we had the #2 spot and Luka was taken 1st then I guarantee this whole board's perception of Ayton would be wildly different.

Unfortunately that's not the case and no matter what, Ayton was fighting an uphill battle when being compared to someone like Doncic who's put up amazing numbers in his time in the league.

[Jdiddy701]

I might be the only one but when I think of Ayton, I don’t think of missing out on Luka. Tired of him being brought up in every discussion.


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[Slim Charless]

I might be the only one but when I think of Ayton, I don’t think of missing out on Luka. Tired of him being brought up in every discussion.


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Truth hurts.

[WeekapaugGroove]

The year is 2032 and Ayton is on his 4 team and 7th head coach... people will still be talking about how if he only had a coach who would use him correctly he would dominate.

It's been the same song and dance since his Arizona days. Dude just is who he is, which isn't a bad player just probably not what some believe he can be.



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He's already been a very good player in the playoffs when it matters the most. It's not like people expect much more out of him. Just be more consistent I guess. He should have been pretty good in Arizona as well to warrant a 1st pick in the draft.

The problem is Luka of course. If he wasn't there or if we had the #2 spot and Luka was taken 1st then I guarantee this whole board's perception of Ayton would be wildly different.

Unfortunately that's not the case and no matter what, Ayton was fighting an uphill battle when being compared to someone like Doncic who's put up amazing numbers in his time in the league.

Sure that's always a cloud that hangs over him and it's not his fault they took him over Luka. It's especially painful for some suns fans because it wasn't a hindsight is 20/20 thing, like half the fan base wanted Luka at the time of the draft.

But more so I think he's just one of those dudes who you can see the physical talent and touch and envision more than he really is. I brought up the fans blaming coaches because I've heard it since Arizona and if its not the coaches then it's his gaurds.

But he's the common denominator. And again he's a good player and a fine starting C for a contender. I questioned if he was a max guy this summer but I'm absolutely happy he's here and didn't leave for nothing.

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[Slim Charless]

He's already been a very good player in the playoffs when it matters the most. It's not like people expect much more out of him. Just be more consistent I guess. He should have been pretty good in Arizona as well to warrant a 1st pick in the draft.

The problem is Luka of course. If he wasn't there or if we had the #2 spot and Luka was taken 1st then I guarantee this whole board's perception of Ayton would be wildly different.

Unfortunately that's not the case and no matter what, Ayton was fighting an uphill battle when being compared to someone like Doncic who's put up amazing numbers in his time in the league.

Sure that's always a cloud that hangs over him and it's not his fault they took him over Luka. It's especially painful for some suns fans because it wasn't a hindsight is 20/20 thing, like half the fan base wanted Luka at the time of the draft.

But more so I think he's just one of those dudes who you can see the physical talent and touch and envision more than he really is. I brought up the fans blaming coaches because I've heard it since Arizona and if its not the coaches then it's his gaurds.

But he's the common denominator. And again he's a good player and a fine starting C for a contender. I questioned if he was a max guy this summer but I'm absolutely happy he's here and didn't leave for nothing.

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Well see, again that goes back to our system and how we use him. I won't go over my opinion on Monty again but I think Ayton on another team can do numbers.

I wish they'd feature him for a month or so then move him after his value skyrockets. I don't know if they see it that way. Or if they have the ability to look that far ahead.....

[lilfishi22]

Nobody is scared of DA coming back to bite us on another team. He ain’t HIM as the kids say. You trade him for the best deal period.

If he destroys us in the first game back in Phoenix, all power to him but if it's not the right fit, just cut bait and move on. No point dwelling on a lost cause

I just wanna say FTR that I don't think Ayton is a lost cause. This is what I tried to say earlier was happening; the Monty led Suns has no interest in helping Ayton. That BS they fed us earlier about being cool was garbage (I called that) and they most certainly do not see eye to eye. All we needed to know was was known when it was revealed that Monty never talked to DA over the summer. That's all you ever needed to know.

If he was in Indy, I think DA would be crushing it with Haliburton. He's here and he knows that his (dumb) dickbag coach and the always difficult Point God haven't really given him the best support. Booker is no help either and only cares about Booker related things.

That said, it's plainly obvious that the time to move on has come and Ayton needs to be traded.

Until he proves he's the dominant player you think he is and paid to be, he's the Ayton everyone here knows him to be.

[Fo-Real]

Read on Twitter

Guess this confirms Booker doesn't watch game tapes of losses.

Hate, Hate, Hate!!!

[sunsbg]

Read Mavs last game thread. Ugly basketball, happy Luka's 30+ game streak is over, coming from Mavs fans. Ayton will never be a dominant player with 10 shots a game, but at least he's not a black hole either. Just enjoy the winning. There are no perfect players. Odd to have this discussion again after a great game.

[bwgood77]

Guess this confirms Booker doesn't watch game tapes of losses.

We were 4th in assists per game last year and currently we 5th... but who cares about facts?

And where do we rank without CP3 and in losses?

Good job on using stats not relevant to what was said.

Did you know you can't sneeze with your eyes open... but who cares about facts?

Well, since this is a thread for this game, we had no CP3 and had 31 assists. No team averaged over 28.1 ast last year and avg was 25. This year in a smaller sample size no team is averaging 30 and average is 24.6.

The ball may move a bit more overall without CP3 sometimes. I would be interested to see total number of passes in a game like this vs in one with CP3, since he dribbles slowly up the court and there is a lot of dribbling and planning before trying to find a guy or make a play so he can get an assist.

[bwgood77]

The year is 2032 and Ayton is on his 4 team and 7th head coach... people will still be talking about how if he only had a coach who would use him correctly he would dominate.

It's been the same song and dance since his Arizona days. Dude just is who he is, which isn't a bad player just probably not what some believe he can be.



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He's already been a very good player in the playoffs when it matters the most. It's not like people expect much more out of him. Just be more consistent I guess. He should have been pretty good in Arizona as well to warrant a 1st pick in the draft.

I didn't want him in the draft, but he exceeded my expectations in years 2-4. However, I have always said he's more of a finesse player than some dominating dunker who runs around fired up. He's also got a fun loving goofy personality. I saw a comment about him having more fun on the bench than in the game right after he was smiling and cheering on his teammates after a nice play. The funny thing is, if he was doing that while on the court, smiling and laughing, people would complain about that...how he's not taking it seriously.

It doesn't really matter what he does, something will be whined about.

I am not particularly happy with his play so far this year, however coming into tonight if you throw out his 7 and 15 min games, he was averaging like 18.5 and 9.5 or something like that. 15 and 7 or whatever was very deceiving.

Then last night, big win, lots of guys stepping up.

It's been very rare that I've seen after a big convincing win against a team that was expected to be tough, when several guys step up, for everyone to mostly talk about one guy that didn't have an impressive stat line. It was another game where he actually had a decent start/first half and was at like 9pts on 4-6 shooting at the half with I think 4 boards. He missed the rest of his shots...which happens.

Anyone who watched the Wolves game last time should KNOW our Cs are going to struggle playing against two all star Cs, including Gobert, who leads the league in rebounding, and Towns, who is solid himself....and it's a lot tougher to score inside with Gobert, and if he flips outside Towns will be on him.

It's the game where we can exploit our other mismatches because they will have a C on someone else so last time we saw Cam explode and this time Mikal.

But back to the last game, Biyombo started and ended with 8 pts and 4 rebounds in 30 min. Landale had 4 pts and 1 rebound.

Our wings exploited them though as Cam had a huge game with 29 and Mikal had a nice game with 19 on 70% shooting. Booker 18.

Same thing happened this time....the guards/wings stepped up and the Cs had a tougher time. Landale was 1-5 for 4 pts, 4 reb.

[RedIndian]

Landale's outside shooting is a big disappointment. It's going to happen soon that teams will start ignoring him, because he's not hitting anything, and the whole idea of him as a spacing 5 will collapse. Teams haven't figured it out yet, but they will.

[oddity]

People expect more from Ayton because they believe he is capable of more. There is no reason to see these lapses in motor from Ayton. Why do role players like Bizzy and Jock consistently bring more fire and hustle and scrap to their games than Ayton does? Ayton doesn't have to be dunking on everyone, but he can at least fight harder for some boards. Again, I'm not so down on Ayton yet, but Mikal Bridges seems like more of third option for us than Ayton does atm, and that's really disappointing for a number one pick.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Landale's outside shooting is a big disappointment. It's going to happen soon that teams will start ignoring him, because he's not hitting anything, and the whole idea of him as a spacing 5 will collapse. Teams haven't figured it out yet, but they will.

Sure but I also expect if he gets open 3s he should keep firing and the law of averages will even out and some will start to fall.

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[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Nobody is scared of DA coming back to bite us on another team. He ain’t HIM as the kids say. You trade him for the best deal period.

If he destroys us in the first game back in Phoenix, all power to him but if it's not the right fit, just cut bait and move on. No point dwelling on a lost cause

I just wanna say FTR that I don't think Ayton is a lost cause. This is what I tried to say earlier was happening; the Monty led Suns has no interest in helping Ayton. That BS they fed us earlier about being cool was garbage (I called that) and they most certainly do not see eye to eye. All we needed to know was was known when it was revealed that Monty never talked to DA over the summer. That's all you ever needed to know.

If he was in Indy, I think DA would be crushing it with Haliburton. He's here and he knows that his (dumb) dickbag coach and the always difficult Point God haven't really given him the best support. Booker is no help either and only cares about Booker related things.

That said, it's plainly obvious that the time to move on has come and Ayton needs to be traded.

I've been singing that "Ayton doesn't get the ball enough" song for a year or so, but from what I've seen early on, Monty put some wrinkles in to get the ball inside more and gave our guys clear instructions to do so. But I've seen Book yell at Ayton multiple times to fight for position and create space. DA just doesn't respond. You'll notice Jock gets the ball inside plenty when he's out there, because he fights for it. DA doesn't.

I wonder if DA still doesn't want to be a center. I guess we could work with that if he could move laterally on offense. Seems he's working a bit more on utilizing force in the post, which is good to see, but regardless what we're not getting from him, you could characterize all of it under the umbrella of "energy."

I don't think anyone on the team or coaching staff ISN'T doing their best to encourage and motivate Ayton. But he's soft, won't fight, and doesn't care enough. Maybe he just can't do it without the 'roids (or maybe he thinks he can't). It's just so incredibly disappointing and frustrating, which is why so much of this thread is about Ayton and not Mikal's dominant performance, Payne's great game and even Shamet being decent.

Booker's a great leader. Everyone's following his lead - except this f'ing guy. I'll keep wishing he wakes the f' up, but if I had to bet, I'd put money on his next contract being a huge paycut.

[bwgood77]

People expect more from Ayton because they believe he is capable of more. There is no reason to see these lapses in motor from Ayton. Why do role players like Bizzy and Jock consistently bring more fire and hustle and scrap to their games than Ayton does? Ayton doesn't have to be dunking on everyone, but he can at least fight harder for some boards. Again, I'm not so down on Ayton yet, but Mikal Bridges seems like more of third option for us than Ayton does atm, and that's really disappointing for a number one pick.

I think with Bizzy and Jock and McGee last year, etc, it comes down to minutes. It's easier to do that in fewer minutes. but then again, last game vs Minny with Ayton out and Biz playing 30 min, he only got 4 boards along with 8 points, while Jock got 0 boards along with his 4 pts on 2-8 shooting...then Jock this time 1-5 shooting.

I would like to see Ayton improve on his efficiency, rebounding and turnovers though.

I have never been big on someone having to be second option, third option, 4th option and having some pecking order of who is the guy with the 2nd most shots every game, 3rd most, etc.

As long as we are winning, I don't really care who steps up as the 2nd and 3rd or even 1st guys if Book is off or whatever.

I don't know if you see many bigs who plays 28-32 mpg have a lot of hustle and scrap all game. You typically have your go to type Cs, of which there are not a lot of them, your stretch 5s where that's their role, or your strictly interior bigs who rebound a lot, like a Capela, Gobert, etc, who will always appear to hustle more because they don't run around as much on D, but can preserve the energy for rebounding and putbacks and have high efficiency.

Guys like Towns, Embiid and Jokic don't look really appear to be big hustlers or scrappy players. Not saying Ayton is more like them but they do a little more.

Ayton does move around more on offense than most, in part due to his range, and on defense due to his versatility and ability to switch.

It would be nice to see him get 20 and 10 every game (though only 1 C averages those #s), but he will likely vary widely between 6 and 14 rebounds and 10 and 24 points each game with a few outliers and end up around his averages of 16 or 17 and 10 and be our second leading scorer, though Mikal passed him up last game in that department...prior to last game, even with his 7 min and 15 min games he was our 2nd leading scorer on one of the top teams. People won't say much when he comes on the high end of those ranges but surely will when it's the other way.