Game 32: Memphis Grizzlies (22-11) @ Phoenix Suns (15-16) | Dec 31 | 7:00PM

[sunsbg]

Between NBA basketball turning into no defense, 3PT shooting contest and this garbage team, only betting on MVP, champion, etc. keeps me interested in this league honestly. Won't invest more time in the team other than watch 9 min YT game recap and Dunn highlights until something drastically changes. Just hope they don't do something stupid and trade the later for another past his prime player.

[dremill24]

Spoiler:

I said I'd give us till about January to judge this team. I think we aren't as bad as our record. But we aren't so much better than it that it's worth continuing this experiment any longer. 30 games this year is a decent sample size given that the same core of players more or less was here last season, so the sample size is actually quite larger than 30.

Also uh...I think Kevin Durant might (emphasis on might) be kind of falling off. This season he is not a truly elite player.

Funny we'd expect defense to be the thing that goes but actually his defensive metrics and box score are all sort of around the same place. As players age its common for them to take defensive possessions off, hustle less, etc., that result in an apparent decline in steals and blocks but KD's steals and blocks have remained about the same since he tore his achilles at 30-31 years. His D-DPM and D-LEBRON are about where they are (can't access historical D-EPM it's paywalled). Also his average speed and miles on defense is about the same since 2016 (lol!).

His offense however has dipped on all major metrics. O-DPM, O-LEBRON, O-EPM all down quite significantly that you can see it in a graph. It's just something to keep an eye on. Also his free throw shooting dropped last year from his career 88% to 85%, and now down to 84% this year. So that's gone for whatever reason (age-related fatigue? just throwing that out there).

Just a little more ammunition I guess for the rebuild train. But in any case it's just sort of "hmm" when we look at Kevin's production and age this year. Much of it could be simply because of Tyus Jones taking assists from Durant but Durant's actual usage rate hasn't changed. But if I had to put money on what's going on, sure, a little bit of both age and Tyus, but I think the decline to non-elite player has started.

DEPM:
2021: +0.4
2022: +0.8
2023: +1.8
2024: +0.6
2025: +0.2

Thanks. Also I accidentally said D-Lebron was about where it has been but that was actually wrong and it's dipped into the negative since being about neutral.
2021: -0.44
2022: -0.22
2023: +0.27
2024: -0.13
2025: -0.68(!!)

Looks like he's trending down defensively slightly. But the offensive impact is still falling off to a much greater degree.

We're still dealing with small sample sizes but fun fact: the Suns offense has actually been better with KD off the floor than on this year.

[Bogyo]

Spoiler:

DEPM:
2021: +0.4
2022: +0.8
2023: +1.8
2024: +0.6
2025: +0.2

Thanks. Also I accidentally said D-Lebron was about where it has been but that was actually wrong and it's dipped into the negative since being about neutral.
2021: -0.44
2022: -0.22
2023: +0.27
2024: -0.13
2025: -0.68(!!)

Looks like he's trending down defensively slightly. But the offensive impact is still falling off to a much greater degree.

We're still dealing with small sample sizes but fun fact: the Suns offense has actually been better with KD off the floor than on this year.

I was just referring to this without actually knowing this in the season thread! Thanks for bringing the numbers behind my eye-test.

[dremill24]

No Royce/Allen/Nurkic has meant a lot of PT with Dunn, Okogie, and a big...not so great for the offense. Couldnt score jack in the halfcourt. End of the day, I'd say just one of a couple more rebounds or a couple less TOs or a couple more made shots from Booker gets a win. Couldnt get just one of those...Sad times.

[dremill24]

Spoiler:

Thanks. Also I accidentally said D-Lebron was about where it has been but that was actually wrong and it's dipped into the negative since being about neutral.
2021: -0.44
2022: -0.22
2023: +0.27
2024: -0.13
2025: -0.68(!!)

Looks like he's trending down defensively slightly. But the offensive impact is still falling off to a much greater degree.

We're still dealing with small sample sizes but fun fact: the Suns offense has actually been better with KD off the floor than on this year.

I was just referring to this without actually knowing this in the season thread! Thanks for bringing the numbers behind my eye-test.

My overly simplified summary is that he's a stupidly talented offensive player that makes the shots he takes as well as anyone ever but doesnt necessarily drive good team offense on his own (at least the last couple years), if that makes sense.

[Saberestar]

****, another **** loss. Book probably needed more time to be back, he played a terrible game.

[ChuckS]

Spoiler:

We're still dealing with small sample sizes but fun fact: the Suns offense has actually been better with KD off the floor than on this year.

I was just referring to this without actually knowing this in the season thread! Thanks for bringing the numbers behind my eye-test.

My overly simplified summary is that he's a stupidly talented offensive player that makes the shots he takes as well as anyone ever but doesnt necessarily drive good team offense on his own (at least the last couple years), if that makes sense.

I've admitted my bias, so blame that if I disagree with your obvious knowledge of the game. And I ignore most who imply that Durant could be a team problem because he is old and beyond his prime. Arguing would be useless. Old yes, but beyond his prime seems ludicrous. He is leading the team with 27.7 PPG (5th in the league), great efficiency, second in rebounds at 6.5, 3d in assists at 3.8, and 1st in blocks at 1.3. I would never call your studied opinion simplistic, because "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". But I think our records with him in or out of the line up speak for themself. Last year he had the second best on/off court numbers (strangely behind Nurkic). And I doubt that anyone noticed that, absent Booker, our horrible third quarters ended with Bud playing KD the whole period. I, also, doubt that any coach in the league would agree with just what he can do "alone". The defensive attention is beyond obvious. I won't address "stupidly talented", because I'm unsure what that means.

You might have a point saying he hasn't driven a good team offense on his own with this team. But I'll let everyone decide, on their own, just how much sense that makes. Our recent (sometimes close) losses have come with the absences of Booker, Allen, Beal, and recently Royce, and even Nurkic. The rest of the squad consists mostly of 7 players averaging less than 5 PPG, and 11 under double figure scoring. I differentiate between "on his own" and sometimes all we have.

[bwgood77]

As I've often said over the years, when the ball moves and everyone is involved, we are not only more fun to watch, but everyone seems to play better. Seeing that we are better on offense with KD off the floor is surprising, but although his effortless beautiful shooting is nice to watch, I hate when he stands at the top of the key holding the ball behind him for 15 seconds as the shotclock goes down and he decides what he is going to do. If he doesn't shoot it, he will often suddenly pass it to someone with like 4 seconds on the shot clock and they are often forced to put up a bad shot.

Book has gotten a little better at ball movement which is good since his shooting has dropped like a rock. It hurts the Royce and Allen are out, because ball movement and their 3 pt shooting is our best offense. If our best 3 pt shooters can hit near 40% on 3s, we should be able to beat people. But when we have others taking the 3s it hurts. I thought Book came out looking good. Nailed a 3 early, hit a shorter shot, and someone must have nicked his hand while shooting a 3, causing him to fall down, giving him 3 free throws...then he got to the line another time shortly after that.

But then he missed almost all his shots after that. After hitting 2 of his first shots, ended up 4-20.

That Beal fall on his hip looked painful. Hopefully he isn't out for too long.

[mkot]

I'm not surprise our offense is better when KD is off the floor, during one of championship run with the Warriors, in the post game he said something like "ball movement is cute but iso ball win games" so he just doesn't seem like someone who believes in "team" ball.

[dremill24]

I was just referring to this without actually knowing this in the season thread! Thanks for bringing the numbers behind my eye-test.

My overly simplified summary is that he's a stupidly talented offensive player that makes the shots he takes as well as anyone ever but doesnt necessarily drive good team offense on his own (at least the last couple years), if that makes sense.

I've admitted my bias, so blame that if I disagree with your obvious knowledge of the game. And I ignore most who imply that Durant could be a team problem because he is old and beyond his prime. Arguing would be useless. Old yes, but beyond his prime seems ludicrous. He is leading the team with 27.7 PPG (5th in the league), great efficiency, second in rebounds at 6.5, 3d in assists at 3.8, and 1st in blocks at 1.3. I would never call your studied opinion simplistic, because "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". But I think our records with him in or out of the line up speak for themself. Last year he had the second best on/off court numbers (strangely behind Nurkic). And I doubt that anyone noticed that, absent Booker, our horrible third quarters ended with Bud playing KD the whole period. I, also, doubt that any coach in the league would agree with just what he can do "alone". The defensive attention is beyond obvious. I won't address "stupidly talented", because I'm unsure what that means.

You might have a point saying he hasn't driven a good team offense on his own with this team. But I'll let everyone decide, on their own, just how much sense that makes. Our recent (sometimes close) losses have come with the absences of Booker, Allen, Beal, and recently Royce, and even Nurkic. The rest of the squad consists mostly of 7 players averaging less than 5 PPG, and 11 under double figure scoring. I differentiate between "on his own" and sometimes all we have.

I dont mean to say hes "the problem" at all; far from it. Any team that has him on it is better than they would be without him. Btw, "stupidly talented" was just meant to be a colorful adverb as a compliment, similar to "ridiculously talented" or "immensely talented." I just used "stupidly" to try to convey how talented (in a good way).

To me its more about how the roster is set up and how the offense is set up on the floor. There seems to be this idea that you can just plop him on a roster and roll the ball out and your offense will be killing it. And when he goes out and drops 27ppg on great efficiency, it seems like may be thats the case. Im just saying it may not be that simple, there are only a couple of players in the world who can so that regardless of surrounding context.

I guess the more nuanced version of what I was trying to say was a response to some narratives that say things like "look at his numbers, theres no way the team should be this bad" or "hes been the only good one out there, get him some help." I think that onlookers (and at times himself) need to recognize both his individual brilliance and his limitations. He makes like every shot he puts up, but what does it take to get there? Spending 15 seconds of the shot clock to get him the ball at the nail against a set defense with his back to the basket is only so likely to yield a good shot. Hes making tough turnaround fadeaways like few others in history but thats not making his team overly difficult to defend, in many cases. His ball handling is amazing for someone his size but not quite good enough to avoid high levels of turnovers. He needs to have good enough playmakers around him on the roster and good enough sets/movement to create advantages before or right on the catch to account for the things that arent perfect (which is fine, no player is).

I just think the team (and him/fans sometimes) overestimates how well his individual brilliance drives sustainable offense overall. Of course hes a monster shot maker. Theres sometimes a lack of willingness to acknowledge that there are improvements that could be made to how hes set up for success with his supporting cast, how hes set up for success with scheme on the floor, and yes, at times the decisions he makes himself. Just because he makes shots the way he does, doesnt necessarily mean the way he is used or the way he decides to play is absolved of any responsibility.

In short, he cant do it himself...having him out there doesnt automatically mean the offense is elite.

Just as an example, NOT to pit them against each other, but take some splits compared to Booker.

2023-24
Booker OffRtg: 121.4
Durant OffRtg: 119.3
Booker on/Durant off OffRtg: 122.0
Durant on/Booker off OffRtg: 116.3

2024-25
Booker OffRtg: 115.8
Durant OffRtg: 114.1
Booker on/Durant off OffRtg: 114.7
Durant on/Booker off OffRtg: 110.3

Defense is another story. They dont score too well without Booker but dont defend too well without Durant.

They need both. Records say the same. KD w/ no Book: 1-4. Book w/ no KD: 1-9. Record w/ both: 13-4

[ChuckS]

My overly simplified summary is that he's a stupidly talented offensive player that makes the shots he takes as well as anyone ever but doesnt necessarily drive good team offense on his own (at least the last couple years), if that makes sense.

I've admitted my bias, so blame that if I disagree with your obvious knowledge of the game. And I ignore most who imply that Durant could be a team problem because he is old and beyond his prime. Arguing would be useless. Old yes, but beyond his prime seems ludicrous. He is leading the team with 27.7 PPG (5th in the league), great efficiency, second in rebounds at 6.5, 3d in assists at 3.8, and 1st in blocks at 1.3. I would never call your studied opinion simplistic, because "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". But I think our records with him in or out of the line up speak for themself. Last year he had the second best on/off court numbers (strangely behind Nurkic). And I doubt that anyone noticed that, absent Booker, our horrible third quarters ended with Bud playing KD the whole period. I, also, doubt that any coach in the league would agree with just what he can do "alone". The defensive attention is beyond obvious. I won't address "stupidly talented", because I'm unsure what that means.

You might have a point saying he hasn't driven a good team offense on his own with this team. But I'll let everyone decide, on their own, just how much sense that makes. Our recent (sometimes close) losses have come with the absences of Booker, Allen, Beal, and recently Royce, and even Nurkic. The rest of the squad consists mostly of 7 players averaging less than 5 PPG, and 11 under double figure scoring. I differentiate between "on his own" and sometimes all we have.

I dont mean to say hes "the problem" at all; far from it. Any team that has him on it is better than they would be without him. Btw, "stupidly talented" was just meant to be a colorful adverb as a compliment, similar to "ridiculously talented" or "immensely talented." I just used "stupidly" to try to convey how talented (in a good way).

To me its more about how the roster is set up and how the offense is set up on the floor. There seems to be this idea that you can just plop him on a roster and roll the ball out and your offense will be killing it. And when he goes out and drops 27ppg on great efficiency, it seems like may be thats the case. Im just saying it may not be that simple, there are only a couple of players in the world who can so that regardless of surrounding context.

I guess the more nuanced version of what I was trying to say was a response to some narratives that say things like "look at his numbers, theres no way the team should be this bad" or "hes been the only good one out there, get him some help." I think that onlookers (and at times himself) need to recognize both his individual brilliance and his limitations. He makes like every shot he puts up, but what does it take to get there? Spending 15 seconds of the shot clock to get him the ball at the nail against a set defense with his back to the basket is only so likely to yield a good shot. Hes making tough turnaround fadeaways like few others in history but thats not making his team overly difficult to defend, in many cases. His ball handling is amazing for someone his size but not quite good enough to avoid high levels of turnovers. He needs to have good enough playmakers around him on the roster and good enough sets/movement to create advantages before or right on the catch to account for the things that arent perfect (which is fine, no player is).

I just think the team (and him/fans sometimes) overestimates how well his individual brilliance drives sustainable offense overall. Of course hes a monster shot maker. Theres sometimes a lack of willingness to acknowledge that there are improvements that could be made to how hes set up for success with his supporting cast, how hes set up for success with scheme on the floor, and yes, at times the decisions he makes himself. Just because he makes shots the way he does, doesnt necessarily mean the way he is used or the way he decides to play is absolved of any responsibility.

In short, he cant do it himself...having him out there doesnt automatically mean the offense is elite.

Just as an example, NOT to pit them against each other, but take some splits compared to Booker.

2023-24
Booker OffRtg: 121.4
Durant OffRtg: 119.3
Booker on/Durant off OffRtg: 122.0
Durant on/Booker off OffRtg: 116.3

2024-25
Booker OffRtg: 115.8
Durant OffRtg: 114.1
Booker on/Durant off OffRtg: 114.7
Durant on/Booker off OffRtg: 110.3

Defense is another story. They dont score too well without Booker but dont defend too well without Durant.

They need both. Records say the same. KD w/ no Book: 1-4. Book w/ no KD: 1-9. Record w/ both: 13-4

Great post. Thanks for the response.

I've just never seen the nice things said about him that you mentioned, on this board, except from Saber. So some of my posts are an attempt to add balance, hoping not to appear too fawning. I have heard them from most color commentators/former players, and previously posted some from Coach Pop, Kerr, Curry, Thompson, and Green. I tell myself that he doesn't need me and to just have his detractors read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Durant. But I have little will power.

I'm surprised that someone on a board that idolizes Charles Barkley (with reason) could complain about KD using up clock on comparatively rarer occasions, and since shooting 52/40% it has worked more than it failed. I followed the Round Mound for years on what became my once home team. I thought how awesome it was that he could seemingly always score by backing someone down from usually the left key area. But found it to be boring offense which used up the whole clock and was ISOing gone amuck.

I agree that a good offense needs balance and a good example was KD on the Warriors. I'm still convinced that his career 3.2 turnover average is better than that of most big contemporaries, but with that team he averaged 2.7 so you do make a good point.

I'm less impressed with offensive and defensive ratings, but I'm sure they must be helpful to some. I don't use advanced stats to evaluate, however. I think by nature they are flawed, or as more nicely put have noise. I have particular problems when I see that Booker is 118th, Lillard 123d, and KD 131st -- particularly when I see the number of offensive mediocrities ahead of them.

One other minor point. They do not score well without Durant either, regardless of where he is rated, and I definitely agree we need both.

[bwgood77]

I've admitted my bias, so blame that if I disagree with your obvious knowledge of the game. And I ignore most who imply that Durant could be a team problem because he is old and beyond his prime. Arguing would be useless. Old yes, but beyond his prime seems ludicrous. He is leading the team with 27.7 PPG (5th in the league), great efficiency, second in rebounds at 6.5, 3d in assists at 3.8, and 1st in blocks at 1.3. I would never call your studied opinion simplistic, because "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". But I think our records with him in or out of the line up speak for themself. Last year he had the second best on/off court numbers (strangely behind Nurkic). And I doubt that anyone noticed that, absent Booker, our horrible third quarters ended with Bud playing KD the whole period. I, also, doubt that any coach in the league would agree with just what he can do "alone". The defensive attention is beyond obvious. I won't address "stupidly talented", because I'm unsure what that means.

You might have a point saying he hasn't driven a good team offense on his own with this team. But I'll let everyone decide, on their own, just how much sense that makes. Our recent (sometimes close) losses have come with the absences of Booker, Allen, Beal, and recently Royce, and even Nurkic. The rest of the squad consists mostly of 7 players averaging less than 5 PPG, and 11 under double figure scoring. I differentiate between "on his own" and sometimes all we have.

I dont mean to say hes "the problem" at all; far from it. Any team that has him on it is better than they would be without him. Btw, "stupidly talented" was just meant to be a colorful adverb as a compliment, similar to "ridiculously talented" or "immensely talented." I just used "stupidly" to try to convey how talented (in a good way).

To me its more about how the roster is set up and how the offense is set up on the floor. There seems to be this idea that you can just plop him on a roster and roll the ball out and your offense will be killing it. And when he goes out and drops 27ppg on great efficiency, it seems like may be thats the case. Im just saying it may not be that simple, there are only a couple of players in the world who can so that regardless of surrounding context.

I guess the more nuanced version of what I was trying to say was a response to some narratives that say things like "look at his numbers, theres no way the team should be this bad" or "hes been the only good one out there, get him some help." I think that onlookers (and at times himself) need to recognize both his individual brilliance and his limitations. He makes like every shot he puts up, but what does it take to get there? Spending 15 seconds of the shot clock to get him the ball at the nail against a set defense with his back to the basket is only so likely to yield a good shot. Hes making tough turnaround fadeaways like few others in history but thats not making his team overly difficult to defend, in many cases. His ball handling is amazing for someone his size but not quite good enough to avoid high levels of turnovers. He needs to have good enough playmakers around him on the roster and good enough sets/movement to create advantages before or right on the catch to account for the things that arent perfect (which is fine, no player is).

I just think the team (and him/fans sometimes) overestimates how well his individual brilliance drives sustainable offense overall. Of course hes a monster shot maker. Theres sometimes a lack of willingness to acknowledge that there are improvements that could be made to how hes set up for success with his supporting cast, how hes set up for success with scheme on the floor, and yes, at times the decisions he makes himself. Just because he makes shots the way he does, doesnt necessarily mean the way he is used or the way he decides to play is absolved of any responsibility.

In short, he cant do it himself...having him out there doesnt automatically mean the offense is elite.

Just as an example, NOT to pit them against each other, but take some splits compared to Booker.

2023-24
Booker OffRtg: 121.4
Durant OffRtg: 119.3
Booker on/Durant off OffRtg: 122.0
Durant on/Booker off OffRtg: 116.3

2024-25
Booker OffRtg: 115.8
Durant OffRtg: 114.1
Booker on/Durant off OffRtg: 114.7
Durant on/Booker off OffRtg: 110.3

Defense is another story. They dont score too well without Booker but dont defend too well without Durant.

They need both. Records say the same. KD w/ no Book: 1-4. Book w/ no KD: 1-9. Record w/ both: 13-4

Great post. Thanks for the response.

I've just never seen the nice things said about him that you mentioned, on this board, except from Saber. So some of my posts are an attempt to add balance, hoping not to appear too fawning. I have heard them from most color commentators/former players, and previously posted some from Coach Pop, Kerr, Curry, Thompson, and Green. I tell myself that he doesn't need me and to just have his detractors read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Durant. But I have little will power.

I'm surprised that someone on a board that idolizes Charles Barkley (with reason) could complain about KD using up clock on comparatively rarer occasions, and since shooting 52/40% it has worked more than it failed. I followed the Round Mound for years on what became my once home team. I thought how awesome it was that he could seemingly always score by backing someone down from usually the left key area. But found it to be boring offense which used up the whole clock and was ISOing gone amuck.

I agree that a good offense needs balance and a good example was KD on the Warriors. I'm still convinced that his career 3.2 turnover average is better than that of most big contemporaries, but with that team he averaged 2.7 so you do make a good point.

I'm less impressed with offensive and defensive ratings, but I'm sure they must be helpful to some. I don't use advanced stats to evaluate, however. I think by nature they are flawed, or as more nicely put have noise. I have particular problems when I see that Booker is 118th, Lillard 123d, and KD 131st -- particularly when I see the number of offensive mediocrities ahead of them.

One other minor point. They do not score well without Durant either, regardless of where he is rated, and I definitely agree we need both.

I thought dremill made great points, but I will address you talking about not seeing good things mentioned about KD. I think KD is a great player. Barkley was a great player as well. KD is obviously the better scorer of the 2. KD is one of the best scorers ever, best shooters ever, and can do anything, handle, rebound, pass and is a solid defender.

My point, if you were responding at all to my point, was, I like ball movement and quick shots. Some (or many) here may remember seeing me post before about how I didn't like when Barkley came to the Suns how he became a ball stopper on offense when KJ was running the show in a fast paced scoring offense. Now the team, at the time, after KJ, as a 2nd year and 3rd year player took a 28 win team to the WCF 2 consecutive years, had still put up 54-55 win seasons the next two years, yet but didn't make it as far in the playoffs, felt they needed to make a change and add toughness, so they traded for Barkley, which was exciting, and we outlast the Sonics in an epic WCF to make our second finals.

However, it did feel like at times we were not as fun to watch because he would be a ball stopper at times. However, we did still have the #1 rated offense. Interestingly enough, our defensive rating got worse each year Barkley was with the Suns, and we never even made it past the 2nd round after his first year.

Back to KD, I'd love if we played the way Bud likes to play and just moved the ball all the time and kind of used the .5 rule Monty liked to use (shot, drive or pass within .5 seconds) or the way D'Antoni played to get a shot up in 7 seconds or less. We have such great 3 pt and mid range scorers that if we had a team on it's heels the whole game, not allowing them to set up their defense, I think we would have an elite offense.

I know some may say then you are not utilizing all the tools that KD, Book or Beal have if you don't let them iso. I think there may be some time for iso, but I think kind of what dremill's point was, that I also try to make is that even if KD holds it for 15 seconds and then does his iso and scores, and shoots 52%, and 40% from 3, and scores a lot of points on insane efficiency like that, that the rest of the team might not run as smoothly on offense, because they don't really know what to expect on possessions, and they stand around and watch on some of them, so they get taken out of their offense. I used to say the same thing a lot about Book but I think over the last couple of years he has become quicker at making decisions, and not putting himself in as many scenarios where he may turn it over, while increasing his assists...and taking quicker shots. I am unsure why his fg% is down this year though but maybe because he playing Bud's offense he is shooting the 3 more, about 42% of his shots where he normally would only take around 31% of his shots from 3.

In general, I think when the ball starts moving a lot and people are encouraged to shoot it, their confidence goes up and their %s go up. There was talk about how when D'Antoni was here in our SSOL days about how he wouldn't get mad ever if you took a 3 but would get mad if you passed an open one up, and that he made people embrace it so much they always shot their career best from 3 when he was here. It seems we see that often in Bud's offense when our ball starts moving with guys like Royce, Tyus, and sometimes Dunn and Allen get hot, etc. Even Okogie at times.

But KD and Book are more set in their ways so it's tough. Changing the way they play, their efficiency might go down, like it has with Book as he has tried to shoot more 3s. KD has only take about 31% of his shots from 3, which is a bit higher than usual, but he ranges between like 26-33% of his shots from 3 over the years.

Those offense and defensive ratings #s are interesting, but in general I think those are hard to take a ton from when players miss games, play against different opponents, sometimes play with more or less of a depleted lineup (ours or opponents), and maybe most importantly, play more with bench players against bench units. It's hard because you are never close to comparing apples to apples really.

In general, I just prefer a lot of ball movement and quick open shots.

But I think the main reason we are losing is hustle, defense, interior defense, interior easy baskets at or near the rim, and we are bad in things like ORB rate and forcing turnovers. We rank 27th in Defensive turnover % and 24th in off reb %. Although we rank middle of the pack in DRB%, it feels like we give up a lot of offensive rebounds. Maybe it is moreso just lately or maybe because of the fact we are so low in the pack in offensive rebounds, just seeing opponents almost always be better at getting offensive rebounds probably makes it feel like we are terrible at defensive rebounding (or worse than we are).

[ChuckS]

Back to KD, I'd love if we played the way Bud likes to play and just moved the ball all the time and kind of used the .5 rule Monty liked to use (shot, drive or pass within .5 seconds) or the way D'Antoni played to get a shot up in 7 seconds or less. We have such great 3 pt and mid range scorers that if we had a team on it's heels the whole game, not allowing them to set up their defense, I think we would have an elite offense.

I apologize for pulling only this out of your post, but it is the only section that confuses me, and I do not even disagree. Except that I just have not seen what you and dremill seem to be implying. That is that KD stops, slows, hurts, or prevents good ball movement.

I worried because I'm old and forming cataracts, so I double checked to see if I was missing something. But NBA.com has him 42d in the league for touches, at 3.46 seconds per touch, and 66th for time of possession at 3.8 seconds. I think that is great for a scorer of his caliber. He's also third best on the team to Tyus and Book for assists and passes the ball much more often without assists. I think Monty and D'Antoni would be elated with him, as have been every other coach he has had. It seems to me that the majority of his shots are threes or other catch and shoots, or his step back (or not) jumpers. Even his ISOs rarely exceed three dribbles, usually two on his patented baseline jumper.

I didn't quote that section, but I also generally agree with your reasons for our losses. I would just add that I think much of our problem is a general lack of size. And it's great to emphasize threes, but when we have had to go to our bench, absent Beal and Allen, the results have been underwhelming. But I think the biggest reason is something dremill mentioned. Compare our record with Durant and Booker, to that with either of them, particularly Durant, absent.

[bwgood77]

Back to KD, I'd love if we played the way Bud likes to play and just moved the ball all the time and kind of used the .5 rule Monty liked to use (shot, drive or pass within .5 seconds) or the way D'Antoni played to get a shot up in 7 seconds or less. We have such great 3 pt and mid range scorers that if we had a team on it's heels the whole game, not allowing them to set up their defense, I think we would have an elite offense.

I apologize for pulling only this out of your post, but it is the only section that confuses me, and I do not even disagree. Except that I just have not seen what you and dremill seem to be implying. That is that KD stops, slows, hurts, or prevents good ball movement.

I worried because I'm old and forming cataracts, so I double checked to see if I was missing something. But NBA.com has him 42d in the league for touches, at 3.46 seconds per touch, and 66th for time of possession at 3.8 seconds. I think that is great for a scorer of his caliber. He's also third best on the team to Tyus and Book for assists and passes the ball much more often without assists. I think Monty and D'Antoni would be elated with him, as have been every other coach he has had. It seems to me that the majority of his shots are threes or other catch and shoots, or his step back (or not) jumpers. Even his ISOs rarely exceed three dribbles, usually two on his patented baseline jumper.

I didn't quote that section, but I also generally agree with your reasons for our losses. I would just add that I think much of our problem is a general lack of size. And it's great to emphasize threes, but when we have had to go to our bench, absent Beal and Allen, the results have been underwhelming. But I think the biggest reason is something dremill mentioned. Compare our record with Durant and Booker, to that with either of them, particularly Durant, absent.

I think a lot of the time he does play the way I like, but on occasion he will stand at the top of the key and hold the ball and slow it down. It's just those parts I don't like as much. When he moves it, I think everything flows better. It's not something that happens all the time and I don't hate the way he plays overall. I just think when he holds it too long, which happens on occasion, it takes others out of the offense, lets the defense set, and then when he decides to do his iso thing, he does often score, but if he tries to dribble too much into traffic he often turns it over. And sometimes when he does pass it at after holding it so long, there is little time on the shot clock.

But overall, he's obviously a great player and we are a better team overall with him. Overall though, for a PF, I still think 42nd in seconds per touch and holding it that long is a bit too much on average. Unless you are a primary ball handler with a great ast/to ratio, I'd rather you not be in the top 50 or so. Obviously many elite players that are not thought of as primary ball handlers are higher, but I'd prefer it move a bit more quickly all the time.

[Saberestar]

Back to KD, I'd love if we played the way Bud likes to play and just moved the ball all the time and kind of used the .5 rule Monty liked to use (shot, drive or pass within .5 seconds) or the way D'Antoni played to get a shot up in 7 seconds or less. We have such great 3 pt and mid range scorers that if we had a team on it's heels the whole game, not allowing them to set up their defense, I think we would have an elite offense.

I apologize for pulling only this out of your post, but it is the only section that confuses me, and I do not even disagree. Except that I just have not seen what you and dremill seem to be implying. That is that KD stops, slows, hurts, or prevents good ball movement.

I worried because I'm old and forming cataracts, so I double checked to see if I was missing something. But NBA.com has him 42d in the league for touches, at 3.46 seconds per touch, and 66th for time of possession at 3.8 seconds. I think that is great for a scorer of his caliber. He's also third best on the team to Tyus and Book for assists and passes the ball much more often without assists. I think Monty and D'Antoni would be elated with him, as have been every other coach he has had. It seems to me that the majority of his shots are threes or other catch and shoots, or his step back (or not) jumpers. Even his ISOs rarely exceed three dribbles, usually two on his patented baseline jumper.

I didn't quote that section, but I also generally agree with your reasons for our losses. I would just add that I think much of our problem is a general lack of size. And it's great to emphasize threes, but when we have had to go to our bench, absent Beal and Allen, the results have been underwhelming. But I think the biggest reason is something dremill mentioned. Compare our record with Durant and Booker, to that with either of them, particularly Durant, absent.

I think a lot of the time he does play the way I like, but on occasion he will stand at the top of the key and hold the ball and slow it down. It's just those parts I don't like as much. When he moves it, I think everything flows better. It's not something that happens all the time and I don't hate the way he plays overall. I just think when he holds it too long, which happens on occasion, it takes others out of the offense, lets the defense set, and then when he decides to do his iso thing, he does often score, but if he tries to dribble too much into traffic he often turns it over. And sometimes when he does pass it at after holding it so long, there is little time on the shot clock.

But overall, he's obviously a great player and we are a better team overall with him. Overall though, for a PF, I still think 42nd in seconds per touch and holding it that long is a bit too much on average. Unless you are a primary ball handler with a great ast/to ratio, I'd rather you not be in the top 50 or so. Obviously many elite players that are not thought of as primary ball handlers are higher, but I'd prefer it move a bit more quickly all the time.

42nd in seconds per touch is ridiculously low for the 5th best scorer (.626 TS) in the league.

He is KD. He isn't your typical PF because he plays in the perimeter and he is walking mismatch... obviously is gonna have a higher usage than any other role player at that position.

[dremill24]

I didn't mean to start a KD bash-fest lol.

I don't see much issue with how long he has the ball (except when he's trying to run PnR too much). I think it takes too long to get him the ball a lot cause they're too singularly focused. The defense knows exactly what's coming, we don't have a lot of creativity in getting him to his spots at times, and we don't have great counters to their counters. So when he does get it where he wants, he tends to put the ball in the hole, but all the other possessions that aren't logged in his box score can suffer sometimes.

This is also why Booker needs to be out there (on nights where he's not making the same amount of shots I would ).

FWIW, other than a few outlier stinkers, I thought he was solid at least making sure he was screening instead of just standing at the nail in this game.

To be clear, he's a beast. I think he could be used better, you can't just roll the ball out and think because he's dropping 27 on good efficiency that the offense is humming without other context, but he tears it up for the most part.