Marion for Shaq deal?

[second_coming32]

Why would the Suns do this? They are actually losing Points, AND Rebounds,

Marion 15.8 PTS 9.8 REB 1.5 BPG .713 FT% 20.25 PER

Shaq 14.2 PTS 7.8 REB 1.7 BPG .482 FT% 18.17 PER

This trade makes NO SENSE whatsoever. Phoenix just shot themselves in the foot. Don't forget it's also going to take a couple of weeks for Shaq to get used to the system, and get himself into good enough shape where he can run with Suns....if that happens at all. If I'm a Suns fan, I pray this doesn't go down.

[-SDU-]

check the minutes, and then also factor in the extra contributions we will get from diaw playing the 8 or so minutes extra AND the contributions from the extra minutes we will get from amare not being in foul trouble now that shaq takes the other teams big

[chrice]

Why would the Suns do this? They are actually losing Points, AND Rebounds,

Marion 15.8 PTS 9.8 REB 1.5 BPG .713 FT% 20.25 PER

Shaq 14.2 PTS 7.8 REB 1.7 BPG .482 FT% 18.17 PER

This trade makes NO SENSE whatsoever. Phoenix just shot themselves in the foot. Don't forget it's also going to take a couple of weeks for Shaq to get used to the system, and get himself into good enough shape where he can run with Suns....if that happens at all. If I'm a Suns fan, I pray this doesn't go down.

Damn you realgm noobies. Marion plays 35+mpg, Shaq plays <-30mpg. And what the heck does he need to get used to? Every team uses him the same fricking way, post him up in the paint, feed him if he can get to the basket. Only this time, he has one of the best point guards in the league dishing him the ball, and a threat in the paint to draw attention off of him.

[-SDU-]

AND some of the best 3 point shooters in the league, something miami never really fully went with when he was there

[second_coming32]

-= original quote snipped =-



Damn you realgm noobies. Marion plays 35+mpg, Shaq plays <-30mpg. And what the heck does he need to get used to? Every team uses him the same fricking way, post him up in the paint, feed him if he can get to the basket. Only this time, he has one of the best point guards in the league dishing him the ball, and a threat in the paint to draw attention off of him.

Don't get it twisted, just because I've only posted 30 or however many times on this forum doesn't mean that I haven't been following basketball for 20 years.

Marion plays 35+mpg, Shaq plays <-30mpg

Exactly...

Every team uses him the same fricking way, post him up in the paint, feed him if he can get to the basket

But the Suns DON"T play that way....hence....they're going to have to get used to their new toy.

Only this time, he has one of the best point guards in the league dishing him the ball, and a threat in the paint to draw attention off of him

Yeah, Nash isn't going to be able to feed him in transition. Shaq has to be set up in the post to receive the ball. He's always created his own shot in the post, he doens't play without the ball....thats just not his thing. He's not gonna cut to the basket, he can't do it anymore. Once he does it once or twice he's winded. Nash is gonna be pulling his hair out because he's frustrated with the guy. I just don't see how this helps....at all.

[exkonvict]

Shaq is tired of Miami. He already got a Championship there. Hopefully this trade will rejuvenate him.

[chrice]

Don't get it twisted, just because I've only posted 30 or however many times on this forum doesn't mean that I haven't been following basketball for 20 years.

If you've been following basketball for 20 years, then you should know very well there is more to consider in this trade than just stats. Yes, Marion has better production per game, because he plays more minutes. We get that, everyone in the whole universe jumped to point that out when this trade was announced. You can use it as a ground basis, but what is your reasoning aside from that for the Suns shooting ourselves in the foot? If you don't mention that, you're argument is basically a repeat of everything we've heard so far.

You say, Shaq doesn't fit the system. Then I ask, Why is Nash only going to be able to pass to Shaq when he's in transition? Nash has no problem creating plays in a half court offense. Nor does he have problem driving baseline or driving paint to draw a double in order to find a free Amare. I don't see why he can't create something for Shaq.

You say, Shaq has to be set up in the post to receive the ball. I ask, isn't that to be expected? When Amare was injured, Suns didn't have a problem running post offense with Diaw. Shaq has years of experience doing that, as well as above average passing skills for his size.

You say, Shaq has always created his own shot. I agree that, that was one of his strengths in his prime. He is a shell of his former self physically, but he has a complementary team around him. Outside shooters to take the pressure off him in the paint, Amare who is great at playing off the weakside, and the playmaking ability of Nash.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you that the Suns shot themselves in the foot. But I'm trying to keep an open mind about the opposing arguments. I realize Shaq is past prime, but you also have to factor in that this is a whole new team he is surrounded by. I just can't see how people can say that he's failed, when he hasn't been given a shot. When was the last time he's played with an MVP point guard and a power forward as quick and explosive as Amare?

[second_coming32]

If you've been following basketball for 20 years, then you should know very well there is more to consider in this trade than just stats. Yes, Marion has better production per game, because he plays more minutes. We get that, everyone in the whole universe jumped to point that out when this trade was announced. You can use it as a ground basis, but what is your reasoning aside from that for the Suns shooting ourselves in the foot? If you don't mention that, you're argument is basically a repeat of everything we've heard so far.

Actually I believe I made several points, but fair enough...I'll give it a go...

You say, Shaq doesn't fit the system. Then I ask, Why is Nash only going to be able to pass to Shaq when he's in transition? Nash has no problem creating plays in a half court offense. Nor does he have problem driving baseline or driving paint to draw a double in order to find a free Amare. I don't see why he can't create something for Shaq.

I agree with you that Nash has no problem creating offense in the half court. The problem is that in order for Nash to create offense, the players around him have to be committed to moving without the ball. They have to be commited to cutting towards the basket, slashing through the lane, and playing with a high energy level to maximize Nash's talents.

Shaq doesn't do this anymore. Five years ago this wouldn't have been a problem, at all....Shaq had the quickness and the energy to get it done. However his energy level has been on the decline for the last 5 years. He can only do it in spurts now and those spurts are shrinking by the day.

If you place an unmoving cog in an offense that relies on movement, than the offense slows down, the same way an engine stops working when that gunky build up occurs. The only way you get it running smoothly again is by removing the clog. Shaq is going to act as a big clog to the Suns offense. They are losing a ton by getting rid of Marion's athleticism. It's going to be a change of pace for them that is going to take some getting used to.

You say, Shaq has to be set up in the post to receive the ball. I ask, isn't that to be expected? When Amare was injured, Suns didn't have a problem running post offense with Diaw. Shaq has years of experience doing that, as well as above average passing skills for his size.

Diaw is a 6'8 220 PF, Shaq is a 7'1 350 pound mass. Diaw post play was fluid, quick, and with purpose. When Shaq catches down in the post he holds the ball for 5-7 seconds before starting his post move. If he doesn't find a cutter he begins the slow process of backing down the opponent and trying to score on his own. Before he was quick enough to create this way. The problem now is, his offense has completely changed due to the deterioration of his explosiveness that made him so successful. He'll have some success in the post, but not enough to compensate for losing Marion. He's gonna take them right out of their rhythm offensively.

You say, Shaq has always created his own shot. I agree that, that was one of his strengths in his prime. He is a shell of his former self physically, but he has a complementary team around him. Outside shooters to take the pressure off him in the paint, Amare who is great at playing off the weakside, and the playmaking ability of Nash.

Yeah I'll give you that. I'm actually interested to see how it plays out myself. My problem with it is simply this....Marion gave you 35 minutes, Shaq gives you 30 at best. Nash can't prevent penetrators and Shaq is going to pick up a lot of cheap fouls, adding to this is the fact that he's gonna be winded half the time and his defense won't be on point. What are you going to do when he's not on the floor and you don't have Marion to go to? Stoudamire goes back to the 5, Diaw takes the 4 and we're right back at square one.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you that the Suns shot themselves in the foot. But I'm trying to keep an open mind about the opposing arguments. I realize Shaq is past prime, but you also have to factor in that this is a whole new team he is surrounded by. I just can't see how people can say that he's failed, when he hasn't been given a shot. When was the last time he's played with an MVP point guard and a power forward as quick and explosive as Amare?

I agree, and I'm not going to say definitively that this is going to be bad for the suns because I want to see how they look on the court. When Gasol went to the Lakers I thought it was a great move, because you were taking a player who was born to play in the Triangle offense, surrounding him with the right complimentary players who can do the things that he wasn't good at in Memphis. The result is that Gasols play will be enhanced and the Lakers will benefit by the increased production.

The Suns are taking a player that is the complete utter antithesis of what they do and trying to make it work. It has red flags written all over it, and not only that, the Suns are basically all or nothing with this one. Where does this put the Suns if the trade fails? The Lakers trade was little to no risk....enourmous reward; the Suns are taking a huge risk for potentially a huge reward. I'm fascinated to see how it plays out.

[Cash]

AND some of the best 3 point shooters in the league, something miami never really fully went with when he was there

There are only 3 quality 3-point shooters on the Suns' roster.

[sens8tional]

this is a knee jerk reaction by the suns. I think its a big mistake to think that shaq can turn his game around. he is not on the decline he is in the valley. the suns with marion were not going to win a title the suns with shaq will not win a title. it was a move for the sake of making a move.

having shaq will slow your game down which is pheonix calling card as dantoni says "we run, we run and we run some more" well with shaq you will be walking walking and walking some more. offensively i think it will hurt you. defensively shaq could alter and block shots but asking him to step away from the block move his feet to guard someone was asking for trouble. he could never guard the pick and roll and with his age and declining skill set he will be more of detrament than a help.

shaq is a shell of his former self and no longer requires to be double on the offensive end of the floor. he is relatively none existent in the 4th quarter because his free throw shooting is so attrocious

get used to seeing other teams p-r ing you to death