The Suns and Steve Nash WERE like the Cavs with Mark Price

[Double Helix]

If you didn't outright dismiss my sensationalist subject line, you probably came in here to disagree with me. The Suns like the Cavs before Lebron? Are you kidding me? The Cavs were a joke, right?

Wrong... Many of you were probably too young to remember the Cleveland Cavaliers regular season dominance in the early 90s and with good reason. They never won anything significant. They qualified the playoffs for 8 straight seasons, including three 50-win seasons, and had one of the best, most fundamentally sound offensive PGs in the league in Mark Price. Their offence was high-octane and they could really shoot the ball, but because of one of the league's best players at the time (of all time), Michael Jordan, they were routinely tossed aside in the playoffs.

If any of this seems familiar it should. Steve Nash is a better version of Mark Price, playing in a different era but under similar circumstances. He and his high-scoring team are all the rage during the regular season but they've routinely been beat in the playoffs by the league's best (who happen to be bigs during this post Jordan era).

Andrei Kirelenko wouldn't have brought you a championship. Joe Prizzbilla or Charlie Villanueuva wouldn't have either. Post defence in the playoffs is about more than just regular season blocked shot statistics; it's about positioning, size, strength, wisdom and respect from the officials and Shaquille O'neal brings all of those attributes to the table.

This move allows Diaw, Stoudamire, Barbosa, Hill and Bell a little more breathing room in the offence and will allow Steve to slow it down a little when he feels it's needed. D'antoni will get the most out of the big fella and rest him when needed. Let's face it... A 30-something Barkley brought you close; why can't a 30-something Shaq bring you further? He doesn't need to play 35 minutes a game in the playoffs to be effective. He'll play him when needed and rest him when he wants to go small and fast.

If Steve Nash wouldn't have won back-to-back MVPs he was dangerously close to become this generation's Mark Price; one of the greatest PGs of all time but easily forgotten a decade later. As a long-time basketball fan from the outside, looking in, I'm really pleased to know that's not going to happen to Steve. He deserves better than that and so do you guys, the basketball fans of Phoenix.

[Biff]

Thanks man. The similarities are definitely there. I too think Shaq is going to bring us a ring.

[Double Helix]

57 win season - Conference Finalist

Mark Price

19.6 ppg
9.1 assists per game
1.6 steals per game
3.4 rebounds per game

Shooting Percentages
FG - 46% (his next year was .500)
3 point percentage - 40%
Free throw percentage - 88% (his career average was 90%)

Larry Nance

16.5 ppg
8.7 rebounds per game
3 assists per game
2.6 blocks per game

Shooting percentages
FG - 55%
Free throw percentage - 82%

Brad Daugherty

20ppg
10 rebounds per game
4.2 assists per game

Shooting percentages
FG - 57%
Free throw percentage - 80%


--------------------------------------------------


Basically, they had one of the best offensive floor generals in the league that could really stroke the 3 ball when hot (he did win the 3 point shoot out twice) and was just behind Stockton in assists, and 2 tremendously versatile power players. They scored a lot of points in the regular season and were great fantasy players but it takes more than that to win championships.

[DEEP3CL]

DH you should be praised here on this board for that info. It's good to see somebody on RGM remember the good days of pro ball. I too remember those Cav teams that didn't win nothing.

Not to mention they had remarkable talent on that squad, like Larry Nance( I wonder if these kids here even knew he balled for the Suns in the early 80's) also Kevin Johnson started his career in Cleveland.

But like you and I both know they lacked a true big man for a good while until they got Brad Daughtery, but by then we know who took their hearts on one shot.

Good post it's refreshing to read something with knowledge for a change.Even though I'm a Laker fan I'm also an NBA fan.

[Double Helix]

The thing is... When you're in an era with an extremely dominant player (in this case Duncan and everybody that plays off of him) you really do need something or somebody to match that.

I honestly believe a team like the Cavs or the Suns could have taken down Michael's Bulls for at least one season HAD they had a defensive wing on their pre-existing team like a Joe Dumars or someone of that ilk.

With the Suns, it's been clear for awhile now that the run-and-gun game can be slowed down and taken away from them in the playoffs so maybe, just maybe... a presence like Shaq is what was needed.

Who else is big enough to hold back Duncan?

Yao - But he's not going anywhere.
Big Z - I don't even think the Cavs would have taken Marion for him given their team's makeup.
Kaman - He's one of the league's best up-and-coming bigs.


It's not everday as a GM that somebody calls you offering you Shaq and I really believe that it was Miami that probably got this started. And with Marion's off the court issues of late, it sounds like they were worried they wouldn't get a better offer for a bigger need than Shaq down the road.

They probably could have aquired more wings for him but that wouldn't have helped matters much for them anyway.

[eastsidecrossover]

Good take, and I think you are right on. I remember the old days with mark price running the show. I loved watching Nacy as a kid in the 80's, and even went to a few games back in the old days at the mad house on mcdowell.

I think shaq can help the others raise their game and bring a ring home.

[b-ball forever]

Andrei Kirelenko wouldn't have brought you a championship. Joe Prizzbilla or Charlie Villanueuva wouldn't have either. Post defence in the playoffs is about more than just regular season blocked shot statistics; it's about positioning, size, strength, wisdom and respect from the officials and Shaquille O'neal brings all of those attributes to the table.

What? Positioning n Shaq in the same sentence?
We aren't in the Lakers 3-peat days anymore, Shaq's mobilty is a joke now, anybody who saw him play over the past 2 seasons knows that.

It's not like he's sum sorta lockdown inside presence either he's a *solid* post defender, Kurt Thomas-like solid, nothin more.
Shaq isn't a better inside defender then AK47

Of course when he isn't injured he'll be helpin us out on the offensive end more then KT did but we didn't trade Shaq for KT, it's the Matrix we traded away for him.

No doubt Shaq will help us out in sum of our weak areas, but the only way he's gonna be makin this trade worth it is by beatin down Marion's production, and that's a heck of hole 2 fill in.

It's like if the early 90s Cavs traded Brad Daugherty away for the current Shaq, that prolly wudn't have been an upgrade either

[Phoenix1977]

To the OP...I doubt Nash will be forgotten in 10 years. How many MVP's did Price have? The 2 Nash pulled in will always group him with the best that have ever played the position. I don't think Price really fits that mold. Sure, he was a quality PG...but he's more like a KJ. A great career with a few awesome years...but never quite put it all together to speak of them as the best of all time. Nash is in that group.

[dm17415]

To the OP...I doubt Nash will be forgotten in 10 years. How many MVP's did Price have? The 2 Nash pulled in will always group him with the best that have ever played the position. I don't think Price really fits that mold. Sure, he was a quality PG...but he's more like a KJ. A great career with a few awesome years...but never quite put it all together to speak of them as the best of all time. Nash is in that group.

KJ was better then Price, if we are to look at current/recent comparison it would be Cassell.

[JohnVancouver]

[quote="Double Helix"]If you didn't outright dismiss my sensationalist subject line, you probably came in here to disagree with me. The Suns like the Cavs before Lebron? Are you kidding me? The Cavs were a joke, right?

Wrong... Many of you were probably too young to remember the Cleveland Cavaliers regular season dominance in the early 90s and with good reason. They never won anything significant. They qualified the playoffs for 8 straight seasons, including three 50-win seasons, and had one of the best, most fundamentally sound offensive PGs in the league in Mark Price. Their offence was high-octane and they could really shoot the ball, but because of one of the league's best players at the time (of all time), Michael Jordan, they were routinely tossed aside in the playoffs.

(snip)

Nice one - great analogy.
After the initial WTF?, I've got real hopes for this experiment. The league had caught up to and onto the Suns, people knew how to play them, we were looking at regular bloodbaths in the western play-offs with an undersized inside game and I just don't believe they could have made it out of the west without a solid big. Even now, greatly diminished, Shaq is nothing if not solid. 300-plus pounds of meat and smarts in the middle will make a huge difference offensively and defensively.

Going back further, Jerry West was one of the greatest guards of all time and a monster in the play-offs but he couldn't get a ring until the Lakers added Wilt, also in the waning years of his career. Like Wilt, Shaq seems ready to buy in to the idea of filling a role - clog the middle, rebound, ignite the break and generally be a presence.

I'm excited

[Double Helix]

To the OP...I doubt Nash will be forgotten in 10 years. How many MVP's did Price have? The 2 Nash pulled in will always group him with the best that have ever played the position. I don't think Price really fits that mold. Sure, he was a quality PG...but he's more like a KJ. A great career with a few awesome years...but never quite put it all together to speak of them as the best of all time. Nash is in that group.

I think you probably skimmed my original post and if so, I don't blame you. I did, however, mention that IF Steve Nash hadn't been universally recognized with 2 MVPs he had the potential of becoming this generation's Mark Price. See below for my original quote:

If Steve Nash wouldn't have won back-to-back MVPs he was dangerously close to become this generation's Mark Price; one of the greatest PGs of all time but easily forgotten a decade later. As a long-time basketball fan from the outside, looking in, I'm really pleased to know that's not going to happen to Steve. He deserves better than that and so do you guys, the basketball fans of Phoenix.

And just to respond to bballforever's post:

There's no doubt that AK47 is a tremendous shot blocker and a good defender but do you really think he could have handled Tim Duncan's size? I sure don't. And that rightthere was my entire reason for posting here. Tim Duncan, one of this generation's greatest players, is in your way of winning an NBA championship. Sure, Dirk's done it before too but Tim's been there more often.

It's for this reason that I disagree with your main point that Shaq had to match Marion's production. It's not about stats. You shouldn't measure this trade based on statistical comparisons. This trade wasn't made with fantasy basketball in mind, it was made with NBA playoff basketball in mind and I believe that Shaq will have a larger presence in getting you guys over that hump than Marion would have.

This isn't about Marion's stats; the man's a stat freak... But you have to think that somewhere... guys like Barbosa, Diaw and Bell are smiling because ALL OF THOSE GUYS are going to get more burn now. All of those guys COLLECTIVELY have the potential to fill Shawn's void statistically. If they hold up that bargain, and Shaq can slow down Timmy D a little... I think Steve Nash finds a way to command the series and get past the Spurs.

Who'll be waiting in the East? Boston? Possibly... But won't it be great to get there and find out?

[DBurks2818]

Shaq's defense was great before he started missing games in late December. You'll be surprised when he gets fully healthy.

Pourous perimeter defense was what hurt him, and with Bell and Hill that won't be as much of a problem in PHX.

[Phoenix1977]

Haha...actually I read your entire post...twice actually. My reading comprehension obviously just isn't up to par. LOL. Oh well.

[KJ7]

DH you should be praised here on this board for that info. It's good to see somebody on RGM remember the good days of pro ball. I too remember those Cav teams that didn't win nothing.

Not to mention they had remarkable talent on that squad, like Larry Nance( I wonder if these kids here even knew he balled for the Suns in the early 80's) also Kevin Johnson started his career in Cleveland.

But like you and I both know they lacked a true big man for a good while until they got Brad Daughtery, but by then we know who took their hearts on one shot.

Good post it's refreshing to read something with knowledge for a change.Even though I'm a Laker fan I'm also an NBA fan.

I guess you could make comparisons b/w Ehlo and Bell too (defensive swingmen who were good shooters).

Never really thought of us and the Cavs of that era as similar but I guess you could make a lot of comparisons. I think the main reason why I didn't think of them that way is because they used to post up Daugherty a lot where as we only post up after a switch, the rest is PnR.

Cavs had some very under-rated players on that team. Nance was one of my fave players (even tho he brought us my undisputed favourite player in KJ).

Good write-up OP. Not sure I agree with everything in regards to bringing Shaq here but I understand where you're coming from.

[b-ball forever]

-= original quote snipped =-


There's no doubt that AK47 is a tremendous shot blocker and a good defender but do you really think he could have handled Tim Duncan's size? I sure don't. And that rightthere was my entire reason for posting here. Tim Duncan, one of this generation's greatest players, is in your way of winning an NBA championship. Sure, Dirk's done it before too but Tim's been there more often.

Yeah AK47 isn't gonna stop Duncan, but Shaq isn't gonna do that either. Again, Shaq is nothin more then solid on the defensive end.
Ya know that we had Kurt Thomas on TD in the playoffs last year and we still got lit up inside right?
Shaq isn't a beta post defender then KT. Sure he's a better shot-blocker, but as far defensive positionin, mobilty, and pick n roll cloggage he's WAY behind

It's for this reason that I disagree with your main point that Shaq had to match Marion's production. It's not about stats. You shouldn't measure this trade based on statistical comparisons. This trade wasn't made with fantasy basketball in mind, it was made with NBA playoff basketball in mind and I believe that Shaq will have a larger presence in getting you guys over that hump than Marion would have.

This isn't about Marion's stats; the man's a stat freak... But you have to think that somewhere... guys like Barbosa, Diaw and Bell are smiling because ALL OF THOSE GUYS are going to get more burn now. All of those guys COLLECTIVELY have the potential to fill Shawn's void statistically. If they hold up that bargain, and Shaq can slow down Timmy D a little... I think Steve Nash finds a way to command the series and get past the Spurs.

Of course this isn't bout stats, it's bout overall production and contribution 2 the team's play.
Lets just imagine that Shaq is healthy in the playoffs, and he magically does a beta job then KT n makes sure that TD doesn't PWN us as bad as he did last year...
A'ite, now who the heck is gonna defend the perimeter with Marion gone? Manu n Parker will be totally assasinatin us now.
There are double the dangerous smallmen then dangerous bigmen in the league, n our defense is just gonna get that much worse.

Who'll be waiting in the East? Boston? Possibly... But won't it be great to get there and find out?

Sure, of course it'd be great 2 get back up there again, that's why I don't like the trade, don't see how it's supposed 2 make us better at all
(I already put up all the reasons why at the bottom of this page : http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic. ... &start=432)
Last year we were already the clear cut 2nd best team in the NBA and even cuda maybe beat the Spurs if it wasn't fo BS suspensions, and as of before the trade we had the top record in the western conf, I'm not buying into all the hype until I see us actually play better with Shaq then we were with the Matrix

[pidi]

i hope that we could compare this suns team in the summer to an european soccer team: AC Milan. they are so damn old like we, but if it

[b-ball forever]

Yeah, AC Milan's an awesomely well run sports team that always competes at elite level and has executives that seem 2 know howda make the right decisions.

That's why you'll never see em pull of sum bonehead move like trade Gattuso for Beckham, or sell away every young prospect they got for cash.

Unlike sum sports managers out there the AC Milan executives know that
winnin trophies >>>>>> marketing and $$$$

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Well, I see the analogy but the Suns have been way more successful than the Cavs.
Lat year they were real conteders, the year before too if healthy and in 2005 it was their first year with Nash when the lack of experience got exposed (they still did good enough, though).
The Cavs were really never that good, that was their only real problem.