Phoenix Suns vs Denver Nuggets [Game 61]

[tsherkin]

Re: Kurt Thomas; I have been a fan of KT since he was in Miami, you don't need to sell me on KT. The man's been a great defender and mid-range shooter for... ever, really. And a good passer and decent rebounder, too.

[mkot]

That's why they pay me the big bucks.

And while I agree that the adjustment period with Sheed would be minor or negligible, it'd basically be a zero-sum game or a loss for Phoenix because they'd be getting WORSE on the glass

He can box out though. Shawn can box out better (or has better instinct) than Amare does, but most of his rebounds comes by out-jumping people. Having a box out big (like what Shaq's doing right now, and like what KT did when he was here) would make a difference on the glass.

they'd still be getting merc'd by perimeter scorers because Sheed can't guard anything that isn't a 4 or a 5, so you'd be right back where you are now.

That's one thing I hate about dealing Shawn. While I thought any Marion deal without us getting a good big man would be a waste, we're going to miss his perimeter D no matter how, unless we get a servicable wing defender in return. We could've AK and while he's a bit better post defender, it's a lateral move at best. Shawn was that giant defensive band-aid for this team, and we were relying too much on him covering the other guys' mistakes. That's why I always hate the stupid switching defense we used to like to use...we rely Shawn's activity way too much.

And I think it's dumb

Tell me about it. Like I said, it drives me crazy that Mike prefers the pick and roll over post ups. When we run the ball up court and we don't score, we're already in the half court setting and most times a post up is more reliable than the pick and roll. I don't mind if we run pick and roll to get a switch and then get the ball inside, but most times we run for jumpers.

The Suns rely TOO MUCH on that one play.

And we've come to rely TOO much on Nash. We have guys capable of making plays without needing Nash to set them up. We need to really mix it up and run some plays, rather than just rely on pick and rolls. I've said this even before Shaq came here.

But really, what they NEED is an assistant coach for D'Antoni who knows what he's doing with a big man and that should be fine.

It bugs me that all our coach and assistants are guard...

[Mr. Sun]

Re: Kurt Thomas; I have been a fan of KT since he was in Miami, you don't need to sell me on KT. The man's been a great defender and mid-range shooter for... ever, really. And a good passer and decent rebounder, too.

You forgot a GREAT guy too!

[tsherkin]

You forgot a GREAT guy too!

I forgot nothing; that's implicit, it's like saying "Dikembe Mutombo, philanthropist," or "Shaquille O'neal, big-time joker" or something.

He can box out though. Shawn can box out better (or has better instinct) than Amare does, but most of his rebounds comes by out-jumping people. Having a box out big (like what Shaq's doing right now, and like what KT did when he was here) would make a difference on the glass.

Amare just DOESN'T box out, one of the many reasons I want to beat him with a stick.

But I don't see the point you're making; Shaq does what Sheed would do only he's ALSO grabbing a good 3-4 more rebounds per game in 4-6 fewer minutes per game and can sometimes explode for ~ 20 rebounds, the way Sheed almost never does.

You won't win in a war about the relative efficacy of Wallace vs. Shaq on team rebounding.

That's one thing I hate about dealing Shawn. While I thought any Marion deal without us getting a good big man would be a waste, we're going to miss his perimeter D no matter how, unless we get a servicable wing defender in return. We could've AK and while he's a bit better post defender, it's a lateral move at best. Shawn was that giant defensive band-aid for this team, and we were relying too much on him covering the other guys' mistakes. That's why I always hate the stupid switching defense we used to like to use...we rely Shawn's activity way too much.

Really though, you just need to use your bench more. It won't be a full make-up for what Marion brought (he was a legit top-2 candidate for DPOY last year), but it can be manageable. And yes, Marion was a big-time band-aid player for Phoenix and D'Antoni's policy of switching is exceedingly irritating.

Tell me about it. Like I said, it drives me crazy that Mike prefers the pick and roll over post ups. When we run the ball up court and we don't score, we're already in the half court setting and most times a post up is more reliable than the pick and roll. I don't mind if we run pick and roll to get a switch and then get the ball inside, but most times we run for jumpers.

Don't get me wrong; a pick-and-roll is a fantastic core to your offense, but you need diversity and he doesn't coach that. And yes, I agree with your comment about screens for switches and then looking for mismatches. Or even a cross-screen like the Spurs used to run for D-Rob.

He'd fill the center lane, then downscreen for someone and end up in the mid-post, then flare back out to the wing and take a screen across the top of the key to get a switch for a mismatch on the low opposite block (picture him running centerline, downscreening left side, flaring to the left elbow, then taking the cross screen into the low block on the right side).

He'd get a crapload of quick short jumpers or simple drives, spins and hop-steps into the lane for easy buckets. Amare should be doing that all the time, in both directions.

And we've come to rely TOO much on Nash. We have guys capable of making plays without needing Nash to set them up. We need to really mix it up and run some plays, rather than just rely on pick and rolls. I've said this even before Shaq came here.

This is correct, no questions. This is part of why I was so jazzed at the idea of Brent Barry or even using DJ Strawberry, maybe moving Diaw for a point-forward-ish player, putting Grant Hill back in that role, etc.

It bugs me that all our coach and assistants are guard...

Yeah, even a forward would be nice, you know? Someone like Phil Jackson was a mediocre to solid bench player but a really great mind who saw how guys like Red Holzman used their bigs. Pat Riley, too, though he was better than Phil Jackson.

Anyway yeah, some big-oriented assistants would be nice.

[mkot]

Amare just DOESN'T box out, one of the many reasons I want to beat him with a stick.

That's not in his instinct. You could easily see it when he's playing with Shaq or even KT. When the ball goes up, Shaq quickly finds his man and box out. Amare just chases after the ball.

You won't win in a war about the relative efficacy of Wallace vs. Shaq on team rebounding.

I guess we can't agreed on everything regarding who's the better fit for this team with the same coaching. I think of Sheed kinda a rich-man Tim Thomas with defense. Those kind of players can easily adapt our system and excel. Shaq, not so much.

Don't get me wrong; a pick-and-roll is a fantastic core to your offense, but you need diversity and he doesn't coach that.

Yeah, the ball needs to be spread around more. That's really the thing. The pick and roll should still be our bread and butter play, but you can't run it the whole damn game. It shouldn't be Nash dribbling around like a mad cow trying to create everything. We have Shaq in the low post, we have Hill who's also a good distributor. And then we have Amare to play high-low. We have options. Swing the ball around and let some other guys make some plays, re-balance the floor and try and make the defense really work and move side to side.

I think it should work once they figure out who is going to be where at what time. That seems to be what Nash is trying to figure out, at least from his comments. This team was great at moving the ball before Shaq got here, it wasn't JUST Nash creating...he would start alot of things, but everybody was moving and cutting. They should still be able to do that even with Shaq just with different angles.

[tsherkin]

That's not in his instinct. You could easily see it when he's playing with Shaq or even KT. When the ball goes up, Shaq quickly finds his man and box out. Amare just chases after the ball.

Right, it's because he relies on athleticism as opposed to positioning to get his rebounds, which is detrimental and will hurt him later in his career.

I guess we can't agreed on everything regarding who's the better fit for this team with the same coaching. I think of Sheed kinda a rich-man Tim Thomas with defense. Those kind of players can easily adapt our system and excel. Shaq, not so much.

A rich man's Tim Thomas with defense wouldn't help this team. Again, you'd have the same defensive problems you're having now with less efficient offensive production and less rebounding; I don't see how that'd help. Rasheed Wallace fits the system but cures none of what ails it.

Now, if you'd said Tayshaun Prince... but then you lose rebounding and have trouble against stronger perimeter players. Ultimately, Camby is the best of the choices presented; he's not a huge help offensively but as a ridiculously talented help defender, he can cover for the weakened perimeter defense while rebounding better than Shaq, passing well and even keeping up with the pace of the team (Denver's the fastest team in the league or near to it and has been for a while).

Yeah, the ball needs to be spread around more. That's really the thing. The pick and roll should still be our bread and butter play, but you can't run it the whole damn game. It shouldn't be Nash dribbling around like a mad cow trying to create everything. We have Shaq in the low post, we have Hill who's also a good distributor. And then we have Amare to play high-low. We have options. Swing the ball around and let some other guys make some plays, re-balance the floor and try and make the defense really work and move side to side.

All excellent ideas.

I think it should work once they figure out who is going to be where at what time. That seems to be what Nash is trying to figure out, at least from his comments. This team was great at moving the ball before Shaq got here, it wasn't JUST Nash creating...he would start alot of things, but everybody was moving and cutting. They should still be able to do that even with Shaq just with different angles.

And many of the same angles, really, they're just flustered and don't have any support from the coaching staff to ease the transition.

[Nash to Amare]

5 Shaq Turnovers
5 Nash Turnovers
5 Stoudemarie Turnovers

15 Turnovers by the 3 BEST players on the team....HORRIBLE.

Its hard to find ways to go up against all the arguments right now but with the turnovers the three players you listed are the three players that have the ball in there hands the most.