ImageImageImage

Game 9: Houston(4-3)@Phoenix(6-2)

Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22

User avatar
lilfishi22
Forum Mod - Suns
Forum Mod - Suns
Posts: 36,173
And1: 24,521
Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Location: Australia

Re: Game 9: Houston(4-3)@Phoenix(6-2) 

Post#161 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:40 pm

mkot wrote:The problem is that Shaq isn't out of the game enough. He is getting too many minutes, for too long of stretches. He should be in for 6-7 minutes and then sit. And when he sits, we should run like hell. This is one of my main beefs with Porter right now, is that he plays everybody for too long of stretches. We've seen him going with a lineup of Dragic-LB-Hill-Boris-Lopez/Amundson for almost the whole quarter. Yes our starters need rest but you can't take them out too long and expect them to step right in and light it up. And then add that the 2nd unit usually gives up lead and couldn't score, it's very frustrating to see.

Right now our offensive strategy minimizes the talents of several of our players who used to be effective under MikeD's system: Nash, Raja, Hill, LB, maybe even Barnes. It's a decent offense for Shaq and Amare and even then Amare isn't getting enough touches often. Basically we are a confused team, and have looked like it for a few games now. They don't know how to run anymore. In the half-court, they dump the ball to Shaq way too much. The spacing isn't there. We don't know how to play the pick and roll anymore because everyone is in the wrong place! Basically, the spacing is very horrible. And that's another reason why no one can complete a pass resulting our high TO rates. Everyone just stand and watch. No one is moving. No one is cutting. Teams are collapsing in the lane because our guys ain't active when Nash is dribbling.

Again, this offense shouldn't focus on Shaq THIS much. We are wasting our offensive talent on our roster. The offense now is focused too much on Shaq to the point where everyone else isn't involved. Again, there has to be variation. When MikeD is here, people said we played too much pick and roll that made us too predictable. Well, with Porter's new offense, our offense looks even more stale and predictable...We need balance. We can run, we can play slow, we can run the "used-to-be-so-deadly" Nash-Amare pick and roll, and we can dump to Shaq. Mix it up!!!

Porter's rigid rotations annoy me every game, win or lose. He has to be willing to play guys at spots other than their natural position....there's a reason we used to crush Houston pre-Porter. We could've do some damage with a lineup of Amare-Boris-Barnes/Hill-Raja-Nash. We didn't. We played into their hands. Boris was the 9th guy off the bench tonight...and again, who's our sixth guy? He hasn't figure out yet! Frustrating.

You can see players are frustrated as well....Nash's frustration really came out tonight. He was jacking up jumpers he wouldn't usually take, he was pushing and shoving in that brawl...

I know it's early, it's a transition period, but I'm worried.


I'd have to agree with everything you said here. Like I said before if we want to be a top team we're going to have to play in a system that suits Nash and Amare not Shaq.

-SDU- wrote:^ dont kid yourself - amundson and lopez would never see the court in our system with dantoni

dantoni would be great for regular season, but thats not what we are after


Dragic wouldn't get PT either. MD would most likely play Barbs again at the point when Nash is out and have Barnes at the 2.


Through these last few games I feel that we're 6-3 purely on the fact that we have vets on our team who know how to run a good offense because they were so good at playing MD's system. Porter just seems to be trying to fix something that isn't broken. Nash just isn't built for this slow half-court game. Maybe if it was back 6-7seasons ago, he would've made the transition quite easily, but right now, his body just can't handle this grind it out play for 82games. He needs help in the form of a scoring 2 or 3 who can get his own shot and pass out when he needs to.
blackjays
Freshman
Posts: 83
And1: 0
Joined: Aug 01, 2008

Re: Game 9: Houston(4-3)@Phoenix(6-2) 

Post#162 » by blackjays » Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:20 pm

lol Nash doesn't go from all-star numbers to bench numbers in 5 months ok. It's the Porter's system thats screwing him up and it may take 3 games, it may take half the season to get into to rhythm, Nash is gonna have these types of nights probably often.

As for the fight, it looks like T-Mac came in to break it up, then Nash just flies in and elbows Alston! He got slapped by Rafer after lol.
User avatar
rsavaj
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 24,863
And1: 2,767
Joined: May 09, 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Re: Game 9: Houston(4-3)@Phoenix(6-2) 

Post#163 » by rsavaj » Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:28 pm

mkot wrote:The problem is that Shaq isn't out of the game enough. He is getting too many minutes, for too long of stretches. He should be in for 6-7 minutes and then sit. And when he sits, we should run like hell. This is one of my main beefs with Porter right now, is that he plays everybody for too long of stretches. We've seen him going with a lineup of Dragic-LB-Hill-Boris-Lopez/Amundson for almost the whole quarter. Yes our starters need rest but you can't take them out too long and expect them to step right in and light it up. And then add that the 2nd unit usually gives up lead and couldn't score, it's very frustrating to see.

Right now our offensive strategy minimizes the talents of several of our players who used to be effective under MikeD's system: Nash, Raja, Hill, LB, maybe even Barnes. It's a decent offense for Shaq and Amare and even then Amare isn't getting enough touches often. Basically we are a confused team, and have looked like it for a few games now. They don't know how to run anymore. In the half-court, they dump the ball to Shaq way too much. The spacing isn't there. We don't know how to play the pick and roll anymore because everyone is in the wrong place! Basically, the spacing is very horrible. And that's another reason why no one can complete a pass resulting our high TO rates. Everyone just stand and watch. No one is moving. No one is cutting. Teams are collapsing in the lane because our guys ain't active when Nash is dribbling.

Again, this offense shouldn't focus on Shaq THIS much. We are wasting our offensive talent on our roster. The offense now is focused too much on Shaq to the point where everyone else isn't involved. Again, there has to be variation. When MikeD is here, people said we played too much pick and roll that made us too predictable. Well, with Porter's new offense, our offense looks even more stale and predictable...We need balance. We can run, we can play slow, we can run the "used-to-be-so-deadly" Nash-Amare pick and roll, and we can dump to Shaq. Mix it up!!!

Porter's rigid rotations annoy me every game, win or lose. He has to be willing to play guys at spots other than their natural position....there's a reason we used to crush Houston pre-Porter. We could've do some damage with a lineup of Amare-Boris-Barnes/Hill-Raja-Nash. We didn't. We played into their hands. Boris was the 9th guy off the bench tonight...and again, who's our sixth guy? He hasn't figure out yet! Frustrating.

You can see players are frustrated as well....Nash's frustration really came out tonight. He was jacking up jumpers he wouldn't usually take, he was pushing and shoving in that brawl...

I know it's early, it's a transition period, but I'm worried.


+1, and it saddens me to know that we can't even run an effective pick and roll/fastbreak anymore because they don't practice it. Nash was making terrible reads on the pick and roll, and NOBODY except Nash is running up the court. Sad day.
tsherkin
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 92,102
And1: 31,678
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: Game 9: Houston(4-3)@Phoenix(6-2) 

Post#164 » by tsherkin » Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:02 pm

The mistake people are making is blaming this on the number of touches Shaq is receiving.

That is NOT the problem.

The problem is that when Shaq kicks the ball out, the Suns aren't doing anything intelligent.

The problem is that Nash is turning the ball over on basic plays, like the hallowed pick-and-roll with Amare.

The problem was (seems fixed) that they weren't getting the ball over the timeline quickly enough.

The problem is that we still have a defensive hole at the 1.

The problem is that Barbosa isn't a terribly good passer and hangs onto the ball way too long.

The problem is that the Suns don't have a scoring 2 (Rudy, Rudy, Rudy...).

The problem is that Porter has not yet addressed all the things he can fix (but it's early, so that's not a problem yet so much as an issue at hand).

The problem is that they aren't playing fast enough when Shaq isn't in the game.

Dumping the ball into Shaq has never stagnated a good offense; the only time it's ever bombed out is so far in Phoenix and post-title Miami. Phoenix has more talent but is playing just as badly... because they don't know how.

They don't realize that when they kick it in to Shaq and he coughs back up to the post-entry passer that they can swing, work the high SnR and attack that way. They don't realize that they can get a base cross out of Shaq when he doesn't have the ball and they can work pin down.

The team is disjointed in general; the emphasis on Shaq's offense is not a negative factor here, certainly not with the way Shaq is handling his possessions.

Orlando, L.A. and Miami have all done successful things with him in both up-tempo and slow-down offenses, working alongside snappy scoring wings and with his various roleplayers.

The problem is that Nash is a pick-and-roll player; it's what he's done since he got into the league. His success in Dallas AND Phoenix has been predicated on the pick and roll, first with Dirk and then with Amare... and obviously, the transition game plays to his strengths. He's not a terribly good player in the half-court, or rather, not a dominant player in that scenario. Why? Because it's like putting Shaq in the pick-and-roll and asking him to shoot jumpers, it's not what he's been doing for the last decade plus (decade and a half plus for Shaq... jeez...).

We're seeing Nash produce statistically like his first couple of years in Dallas... why? Not as many opportunities to create assists, more unfamiliar half-court crap means more turnovers.

Nash needs to adjust. I'd worry more about Amare than Nash, personally. Worry about getting him more touches. Baseline and elbow isolations, action off of pin downs and then involvement in PnRs. Do all of that after Shaq gets a first touch, and maybe a repost, run more when Shaq's sitting, and BOOM, Phoenix is amazing on offense again... consistently.
User avatar
mkot
RealGM
Posts: 11,360
And1: 3,051
Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Location: Eyes On The Bottom Line
 

Re: Game 9: Houston(4-3)@Phoenix(6-2) 

Post#165 » by mkot » Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:06 pm

I don't mind throwing the ball to Shaq more if we're moving and cutting. We aren't going that. Shaq is getting too many touches to the point where everyone else isn't involved. Like I said, everyone just standing and watching. The offense is stale and predictable. Basically, there's not much offense. Last night is especially obvious. It was scary to see how we were throwing the ball to Shaq every single time down the floor. That's just...absurd. Maybe Porter figures he has no other use offensively and would just in the way, so we might as well throw the ball into him. I don't know. I don't like his strategy at all. It really makes us deliberate and takes the pressure off the rest of the defense because guys are standing around watching because there's no actual motion in our offense. We just have Nash brings the ball up, throws it to Shaq, and he either scores or kicks it out for a 3-pt attempt. What if they run us off the line? What if we're missing those 3s, or Shaq is missing his inside shots. There's no 3rd or 4th move within the offense.

We should've sit Shaq longer and earlier. We should've gone small. We didn't. We played into their hands. I'm fine if Porter has different rotation based on matchups, but at least get it right. Amundson could've helped against a guy like Scola or Landry. Singletary might have slowed Brooks. Amare or Boris could've drawn Yao out of the lane and made him play some perimeter D and then outrun him on the break. He was winded in the 2nd quarter but we didn't take advantage. How disappointing.

This game is on Porter, and players' frustration really came out last night. I know it's still early, and I still have faith in Porter and think things will shake out, but he better start working on that fast break stuff and throw some smaller, faster lineups out there. It's not about exciting and fun basketball, I could careless. Its about taking advantage of our strengths during the games and we're clearly not doing that as of yet.
Image
The 2005-06 Suns will always have a special place in my heart
tsherkin
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 92,102
And1: 31,678
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: Game 9: Houston(4-3)@Phoenix(6-2) 

Post#166 » by tsherkin » Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:31 pm

I disagree, I think it's more about just making sure that the other Suns aren't stationary WHILE Shaq has the ball. Shaq is a capable and willing passer, which he's shown consistently since the end of his time in Orlando (and he's only improved since then).

If there was more off-ball action, then the passes would come and guys would be involved. It's like I said, dump it in, let Shaq see what's what, MOVE while he's working, and then when he kicks it out, you'll be in position to go into something else.

This is Offense with a Big Man 101.

What do you think the triangle does? Why didn't EVERY team Shaq played on suffer this problem? Answer: they did, until the coach stepped up and bitch-slapped Shaq's teammates into an offensive system that obliged them to move while the big guy had the ball.

That's not a problem with throwing the ball into Shaq, it's a problem with everyone standing around and watching. That's more on Porter's shoulders than on the idea of dumping it into Shaq a lot.
tsherkin
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 92,102
And1: 31,678
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: Game 9: Houston(4-3)@Phoenix(6-2) 

Post#167 » by tsherkin » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:05 am

I must say this, though; I miss the way Coach D used Amare when Shaq was on the floor. I loved when Amare would come off pin down when Shaq had the ball in the post, then the kickout swing pass and Amare was on the elbow for a J or an iso.

That was pretty much unguardable.

That and the Nash/Amare pick-and-roll.

It's not the touches Shaq's getting, it's what is not happening when he gets the ball. The Suns need to work on moving without the ball a lot more. They're too used to running up and down and popping off quick 3s in transition, that sort of thing. And yeah, some of the roster is mismatched to this style, so it's taking time to adjust.
User avatar
mkot
RealGM
Posts: 11,360
And1: 3,051
Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Location: Eyes On The Bottom Line
 

Re: Game 9: Houston(4-3)@Phoenix(6-2) 

Post#168 » by mkot » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:14 am

What part you disagree with me? tsherkin.

If other guys are moving and cutting, I said I don't mind dumping in to Shaq more.

However, Porter doesn't install any motion in this offense. Its almost as if there's no point to the sets. There's almost no 3rd or 4th move in the set. That's the problem right now. It almost seems like Porter has no clue how to work an offense, might as well throw the ball to Shaq. And I understand how effective he was in the triangle, but this is not the same Shaq that won those teams championships. He's getting old, he is big, heavy, and easy to get injured. If we don't have Amare and Boris, I wouldn't complain about his heavy minutes and duty. It's good that he played great for us so far, but how long will it last? It's still early in the season, save some gas for the playoffs (if we get there).
Image
The 2005-06 Suns will always have a special place in my heart
User avatar
mkot
RealGM
Posts: 11,360
And1: 3,051
Joined: Feb 07, 2006
Location: Eyes On The Bottom Line
 

Re: Game 9: Houston(4-3)@Phoenix(6-2) 

Post#169 » by mkot » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:18 am

tsherkin wrote:I must say this, though; I miss the way Coach D used Amare when Shaq was on the floor. I loved when Amare would come off pin down when Shaq had the ball in the post, then the kickout swing pass and Amare was on the elbow for a J or an iso.

That was pretty much unguardable.

That and the Nash/Amare pick-and-roll.

It's not the touches Shaq's getting, it's what is not happening when he gets the ball. The Suns need to work on moving without the ball a lot more.


Right from the first possession in last night game, we made several passes, Amare ended up with it at the end of the shotclock at the midpoint on the lane, with shaq about 5 feet from him and tried to put it on the floor only to have it knocked away. Our spacing is just terrible right now. Everyone is in the wrong place at the wrong time. There's no space for Nash to dribble drive, there's no space to work the pick and roll, and there's no space for the big guys to work the inside game. If we want Shaq and Amare on the floor together, they have to be far enough away from each other where Shaq can operate in the paint or Amare can drive from the perimeter one on one, and not into 2 or 3 defenders.
Image
The 2005-06 Suns will always have a special place in my heart
dantian
Starter
Posts: 2,015
And1: 27
Joined: Jun 23, 2005

Re: Game 9: Houston(4-3)@Phoenix(6-2) 

Post#170 » by dantian » Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:01 am

tsherkin wrote:The mistake people are making is blaming this on the number of touches Shaq is receiving.

That is NOT the problem.

The problem is that when Shaq kicks the ball out, the Suns aren't doing anything intelligent.

The problem is that Nash is turning the ball over on basic plays, like the hallowed pick-and-roll with Amare.

The problem was (seems fixed) that they weren't getting the ball over the timeline quickly enough.

The problem is that we still have a defensive hole at the 1.

The problem is that Barbosa isn't a terribly good passer and hangs onto the ball way too long.

The problem is that the Suns don't have a scoring 2 (Rudy, Rudy, Rudy...).

The problem is that Porter has not yet addressed all the things he can fix (but it's early, so that's not a problem yet so much as an issue at hand).

The problem is that they aren't playing fast enough when Shaq isn't in the game.

Dumping the ball into Shaq has never stagnated a good offense; the only time it's ever bombed out is so far in Phoenix and post-title Miami. Phoenix has more talent but is playing just as badly... because they don't know how.

They don't realize that when they kick it in to Shaq and he coughs back up to the post-entry passer that they can swing, work the high SnR and attack that way. They don't realize that they can get a base cross out of Shaq when he doesn't have the ball and they can work pin down.

The team is disjointed in general; the emphasis on Shaq's offense is not a negative factor here, certainly not with the way Shaq is handling his possessions.

Orlando, L.A. and Miami have all done successful things with him in both up-tempo and slow-down offenses, working alongside snappy scoring wings and with his various roleplayers.

The problem is that Nash is a pick-and-roll player; it's what he's done since he got into the league. His success in Dallas AND Phoenix has been predicated on the pick and roll, first with Dirk and then with Amare... and obviously, the transition game plays to his strengths. He's not a terribly good player in the half-court, or rather, not a dominant player in that scenario. Why? Because it's like putting Shaq in the pick-and-roll and asking him to shoot jumpers, it's not what he's been doing for the last decade plus (decade and a half plus for Shaq... jeez...).

We're seeing Nash produce statistically like his first couple of years in Dallas... why? Not as many opportunities to create assists, more unfamiliar half-court crap means more turnovers.

Nash needs to adjust. I'd worry more about Amare than Nash, personally. Worry about getting him more touches. Baseline and elbow isolations, action off of pin downs and then involvement in PnRs. Do all of that after Shaq gets a first touch, and maybe a repost, run more when Shaq's sitting, and BOOM, Phoenix is amazing on offense again... consistently.


excellent analysis.
as to solution, there is a catchy one: make Nash play like Stockton and Amare like Malone. Stockton always dumped it to the big fella first as long as the latter was offering himself and dribbled only when pushed to. i believe this'd solve the main problem and also helps to set everybody's mind to playing halfcourt Dream's Rox style or Malone's Utah.
tsherkin
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 92,102
And1: 31,678
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: Game 9: Houston(4-3)@Phoenix(6-2) 

Post#171 » by tsherkin » Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:56 am

mkot wrote:What part you disagree with me? tsherkin.

If other guys are moving and cutting, I said I don't mind dumping in to Shaq more.


Must've glazed over that; I'll blame it on sleep debt, but my bad.

However, Porter doesn't install any motion in this offense. Its almost as if there's no point to the sets. There's almost no 3rd or 4th move in the set. That's the problem right now.


I concur wholeheartedly, the lack of motion after the post entry pass is a HUGE problem.

And I understand how effective he was in the triangle, but this is not the same Shaq that won those teams championships. He's getting old, he is big, heavy, and easy to get injured.


My point wasn't to say "give him 18-20 shots a game," it was to point out that he had considerable efficacy (even in '04 when he was getting fewer shots) working with guys who cut and move off-ball. He shared the ball with Kobe, Payton and Malone effectively. He worked with Wade in Miami in a different, non-triangle system. He worked fine in Orlando, etc. My point is that Shaq's game is conducive to involving others... it was so in his prime and is only MORESO now.

If we don't have Amare and Boris, I wouldn't complain about his heavy minutes and duty. It's good that he played great for us so far, but how long will it last? It's still early in the season, save some gas for the playoffs (if we get there).


Surely, Amare should be shooting a LOT more frequently, without hesitation.
tsherkin
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 92,102
And1: 31,678
Joined: Oct 14, 2003
 

Re: Game 9: Houston(4-3)@Phoenix(6-2) 

Post#172 » by tsherkin » Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:57 am

mkot wrote:
Right from the first possession in last night game, we made several passes, Amare ended up with it at the end of the shotclock at the midpoint on the lane, with shaq about 5 feet from him and tried to put it on the floor only to have it knocked away. Our spacing is just terrible right now. Everyone is in the wrong place at the wrong time. There's no space for Nash to dribble drive, there's no space to work the pick and roll, and there's no space for the big guys to work the inside game. If we want Shaq and Amare on the floor together, they have to be far enough away from each other where Shaq can operate in the paint or Amare can drive from the perimeter one on one, and not into 2 or 3 defenders.


Yeah, Shaq and Amare should always be on opposite sides of the key, no question. Spacing is definitely a Porter issue.

Return to Phoenix Suns