OT: Political discussion thread

[aIvin adams]

^very well put

This is just an example of what annoys me in NZ:
I was really good at English during High School, i got in the top 4% of the country and went for the English scholarship, I got 88% which was 2nd in the school behind a guy who got 92%. A friend of mine had a grandmother who was half Maori, so he was 1/16 Maori I believe. As I missed out on the top scholarship for $10,000, I looked everywhere and couldn't find any others I could go for as the school only offered one for English. My friend got 80% and used his Maori 'heritage' to get an $8,000 scholarship. He and I both knew he had the right to go for the scholarship - it wasn't his fault they're so lenient with their 'terms', but I was FURIOUS I beat him by that much, got 2nd by so little, and received NO financial help for University.

And now an MP is trying to waive the standards to get into College/University for Maori students - so they don't even have to pass high school to get in. what a joke

I'm getting mad so will stop now. Good day

i hope its a radical MP and not a mainstream one! that is crazy. that is activism gone amok!

i am facing a similar issue right now. i have the academic record/scores to be competitive to get into the school i want to attend... but im a little below average for a white person. if i were black or hispanic, i'd be a shoe-in. of course, the whole point of affirmative action (and whatever you call what you guys do over there) is to address inequality. and here, one's academic record/scores is statistically predictable by race. however, the more statistically significant factor is socio-economic status (SES - which obv his awfully correlated w ethnicity here and elsewhere). i wish that affirmative action took this into account. although there is still some racism here, a black student with my financial/social resources shouldnt be given much of a boost over me IMO. ive read that wealthy black/hispanic students score as well on the SAT as white students of the same SES.

anyway im ambivalent. i do think racial inequality should be addressed, and i do think there is institutitonalized hurdles that have (Please Use More Appropriate Word) blacks/hispanics' ability to accumulate wealth (housing discrimination comes to mind, among countless others), but its REALLY annoying when i want to go to school!!

anybody follow the new haven firefighter case? pretty interesting stuff.

[aIvin adams]

Why would ANYONE trust their personal health to government bureaucracy?

yah bc the corporate bureaucracy is so much better.

[ALERT WELFARE-HATERS AVERT EYES] when i was on public health insurance it was the best insurance experience of my life. i have blue cross blue shield now and its been a much bigger hassle for me even though i pay a LOT aaaand they 'unilaterally' raised my deductible w/out notice a couple months ago [/ALERT]

[Traxxe]

Someone, please explain to me why we are the only industrialized nation not to have a universal healthcare program?

Did I miss something, because I haven't heard Obama say he wanted to start a single payer program, which is the equivalent to socialism. But don't fear for all of you out there that feel healthcare is a luxury not a right. Healthcare and drug companies make far too much money, and contribute to both Dems and Reps for there to be any change worth getting excited about.

So, we as consumers will continue to get taken out back and worked over by Healthcare Corporations so that CEO's and other fat cats can continue to prosper; and lest we forget, with inflated healthcare costs, all goods and services are inflated as well.

Also, navysully, you have mentioned how WWII was prosperous to our economy; what are your thoughts on the tax tables at the time and for the decade after the war. FYI, those who currently pay 35% paid 85% under Eisenhower.

If we want to live in a society worth celebrating and embracing, then we should all be willing to make the necessary sacrifices for that to become a reality.

One of the reason's I'm not happy with Obama is because he isn't pushing for universal healthcare. People call him a socialist but he is far from it. I'm not happy with what he has done thus far.

Republicans have fallen back to calling him the anti-christ. To saying he is a socialist. They have altogether stopped fighting the issues and have radicalized their party. There are some very intelligent Republicans whom offer incredible opinions and debate. It's just getting through the nutter woodwork now to talk with them is increasingly impossible.

Navysully, in your post you said, "Blood is thicker than Kool-Aid." I'm sure you are quoting blindly and ignorantly but do you care about how racist that statement is? If you said that in front of my family you would have serious issues.

And no, not violently... My family members are all educated and we would sit you down and explain to you calmly and rationally how that sort of racism is sad it perpetuates a sense of worthlessness and opression against the recipients.

I'm guessing you ignorant to the fact that Kool-Aid is racially used as an African American slur in statements like that. It came about because poor communities could not afford soda and kool-aid was an alternative and consumed in large quantities in impovershed communities. It became respresntative of hidden racist language when worded in contexts like you have stated above.

[BurningHeart]

ACTUALLY....it's racist that you were even construing it as such.

Kool-Aid is what someone drinks when they're blinded by something. People have been drinking the Obama Kool-Aid since even before the guy started running for office, and it became worse and worse and worse.

It has nothing to do with that stereotype.

[BurningHeart]

Why would ANYONE trust their personal health to government bureaucracy?

yah bc the corporate bureaucracy is so much better.

[ALERT WELFARE-HATERS AVERT EYES] when i was on public health insurance it was the best insurance experience of my life. i have blue cross blue shield now and its been a much bigger hassle for me even though i pay a LOT aaaand they 'unilaterally' raised my deductible w/out notice a couple months ago [/ALERT]

The government has **** up so many things, that placing my personal well-being is something that I'm just not willing to take the chance on. Not to mention the severe constraints on the system itself.

[Traxxe]

ACTUALLY....it's racist that you were even construing it as such.

Kool-Aid is what someone drinks when they're blinded by something. People have been drinking the Obama Kool-Aid since even before the guy started running for office, and it became worse and worse and worse.

It has nothing to do with that stereotype.

I know what you are discussing but read the quote I provided. He said, "Blood is thicker than Kool-Aid."

That's an old saying that was used in the deep south when people would target and beat blacks. They would joke, "Blood is thicker thank Kool-Aid." Using the word Kool-Aid for being stupid is one thing. Identifying that sentence which is a historical racial slang involved in lynching and beating is another.

I'm sure it's just ignorance and not being aware of this. I studied and teach history at the college level so I probably have more access to that statement than most and it had fallen out of use for a long time. It's a late 50's/60's slang statement used for terrible references.

"Blood is thicker than water"

In the past this statement originated in two ways. The first is not at issue here. Blood brothers being the act of cutting your hand and mixing it to make an oath.

This is what you need to understand:

The even older biblical tradition of "blood is thicker than water" is an oath as well. Parties would cut an animal in half and stand in its blood, swearing their oath while delclaring that the ties of blood is thicker than water.

Now, imagine that above animal scenario in the context of racism. Standing in a pool of African American blood, swearing an oath. "Blood is thicker than Kool Aid." It was a terrible racial saying back when people were incredibly ethically corrup.

[BurningHeart]

I've never heard that statement used by any of my professors or anything.

[Traxxe]

I've never heard that statement used by any of my professors or anything.

I guess its obscure enough then. I wasn't finished with the post and added more to the history of it for your benefit then. It wasn't widely used and wasn't a slogan. It was a racial joke used by whites to instill a measure of fear in African-Americans.

The Civil Rights Act came to and it was dropped. This was the first time I've heard the term used outside of coming across it historically while writing my thesis.

[Dr Manute]

Why would ANYONE trust their personal health to government bureaucracy?

I work for the government and I completely agree. DMV merged with CIGNA - what a horror story!

[Dr Manute]

The similarities between the state of our government and the Suns are uncanny.

Government:
Some people upset with Bush (Iraq war ~ no WoMDs found, economy bad) and want change – Here you go here’s Obama.

Suns:
Some people upset with Colangelo (Barkley trade, Kidd for Marbury) and want change – Here you go here’s $arver/Kerr.

Government:
Economy has gotten much worse. Unemployment is higher then ever. Federal Debt is ridiculously high. Government gives billions to banks and auto industry - More me - 1st, country - 2nd politics. – Change for the worse!

Suns:
Team has gotten much worse. Assets have been traded or lost. Team is in the Lottery with no pick next year. Suns give millions to Banks and sell draft picks. More me/$$ - 1st, team/winning - 2nd management. – Change for the worse!

Government:
Were on the edge of a cliff looking down. If this government run health care reform passes, I think we won’t be talking about years till recovery but decades.

Suns:
Were on the edge of a cliff looking down. If we lose Amare or Nash and don’t receive substantial basketball value in return, I think we won’t be talking about years till recovery but decades.

[BurningHeart]

That's one of the best things ever.

And the most important one of all? Kerr had absofreakinlutely NO experience to run a professional sports franchise, much like Barack Obama had NO experience to run the greatest country in the world.

[navysully]

Ok, a few people responded to what I said on social medicine.

Having lived in England for 3 years and having been through their system, I feel I can speak on it quite well.

Walking into a hospital in England is like taking a step 20 years into the past. All of the machinery is ancient and the hospitals while not in disrepair are by no means modern. The hospitals don't even have MRI's. What happens is in a cost cutting measure (you see this A LOT in government health) they moved all MRI's and CT's into mobile stations that go from hospital to hospital. I read a study in 2002 which stated that the waiting list in England and Wales for an MRI was well over half a million. Plus they struggle from a lack of radiologists to even read the reports. A lot of emergency situations require immidiate access to CT's and MRI's for diagnosis that saves lives. You can't get that in England. They play the best guess game.

I woke up one morning while during my training to head to Iraq. The previous day I was given an Anthrax innoculation. Upon waking I threw up and was wet from sweat. I continued throwing up. I took my own temperature which read 104. I couldn't stand, so I crawled out of my barracks room and knocked on the room next to me, and passed out there. I was rushed to the ER by the next door neighbor. I was helped into the ER and explained that I had a temp of 104 in farenheit and if it got any higher my brain would shut down. I was told, "please sit down". MY buddy brought me some water as I continued throwing up. I waited and waited and waited. 4 hours later I was seen. I had burst blood vessels in my face from throwing up so hard. The doctor that saw me didn't seem concerned at all. Also, the doctor didn't seem to speak much English at all... afterall, this doctor was from India (yet another cost cutting measure). I was eventually given an IV, nausea medicine, and had my blood tested for Anthrax, and stayed overnight. No nurses checked on me, I'm guessing due to understaffing. I had to hobble my own way to the bathroom. I was released the next day and not given any further instructions.

That is the kind of servie you can expect in social (government ran) medicine.

BUt wait... there's MORE!

People in England tout the fact that they don't have to pay for medicine. They think it is amazing.. and the ignorance almost makes me smile. I mentioned the VAT tax they have on every consumable there (17.5%), their gas is taxed extrememly hard, there is a TV tax in which you pay 200 pounds per year for every TV you have in the house and they even have trucks that come around and can see if you have them in your house or not, they have a screen tax in which you pay 100 pounds a year if you wish to have screens on your windows, you pay a road tax if you drive a car, and all of that is over the near equivilant of taxes we have here. They have taxes on everything there. It is stifiling. If you look at how much they pay in taxes - and how much of that goes to the NHS - we pay FAR LESS for insurance for healthcare.

And don't forget the fact that the healthcare we have is by far the best in the world. We have the best doctors in the world. People from all around the world come HERE if they need a life saving surgery. The reason we are behind other countries is because some people cant afford insurance. And there inlies the problem.

In my opinion fixing healthcare is soooooo much more simple than the Obama administration wants to make it. Here is the answer.

Cap frivilous malpractice suits.

The cost of medical care has sky rocketed, and why? Because doctors insurance has skyrocketed to protect them from these malpractice suits. Sure, if something goes grossly wrong you should get something. But $3 million because the doctor accidently left some gauze in you? Give me an f'n break.

Do this and insurance goes down. Isurance goes down and costs across the board go down. We then see that savings in cheaper health insurance!

Regardless, I have seen first hand the horrors of social medicine. We don't want it, I promise.

[walkingart]

Malpractice is not the only issue. You talked about how illegals take advantage of the system in an earlier post; what about the 30+ million American citizens who don't have healthcare. When they get sick, who do you think pays the bill. We already have a system in place that insures everyone is treated; but in doing so, people have their lives ruined by mounting debt they will never be able to repay. Thus rising the costs of services for everyone.

Mandating healthcare and giving people a Universal plan that is affordable is the only fair thing to do. If everyone had affordable and good healthcare, we could use preventive care to treat people before illnesses became to costly to treat.

I, for one, haven't been to a doctor in nearly 7 years. Why? Cause my healthcare plan sucks and I didn't have the money to buy a better plan. I am self employed, and have to purchase my own healthcare. Because, I am 6 feet tall and weigh over 200 lbs, I can't even switch companies now that I could afford a better plan. My wife is also self employed, and has seen her monthly insurance cost increase by over $200/month in the last 3 years. Why? Cause she got sick. And if she switches companies they won't cover any preexisting conditions for a year. HMM...I have these cancer cells, I am sure they won't need any treatment for the next year, so F it, I think I will switch companies.

England is a single payer system, which will never exist here. But why can't we give people the option of Universal healthcare, to accompany private healthcare. If there was a large healthcare plan that we could all by into, it would decrease the costs for everyone. And you are right, maybe a lot of services would have wait lists and some hospitals would be restricted to private healthcare customers. But atleast then, you would have a choice. Right now, I pay 5k a year to have a combined 10k deductable, thus, I am 15k in the whole if I were to get in a car accident or something, that is, if my insurance company lives up to there end of the bargain and actually pays there share; which they are known not to do.

Everyone's perception of the issue is dependent on their individual experiences; up until I hit 22 and came off my mom's union negotiated insurance plan that cost her nothing and gave her the world, I didn't think there was anything wrong with the healthcare system. 9 years later, and my perception has drastically changed. Try going on Cobra, if you have $1200/month to pay for it. Trying getting medicare if you get layed off, but still have money anywhere. And I mean anywhere, 401K, mutual funds, IRA's, savings, checking accounts. Dissolve all your assets, and wait three months, that is what I was told. But three months later I had a new job, but you don't get benefits till you are at a job for 3 months. So, in short, cross your fingers and hope you don't get sick or in an accident for the next 6 months.

Sign me up for an increase in taxes if it gives me Universal healthcare, hell, I would even take the UK version at this point.

[Traxxe]

Funny, I lived in four countries with universal healthcare and loved it in each.

Just because you have one bad experience does not mean the systems is bad. I hate when people take a case study and denounce the rest for it.

Health insurance is run for profit. In any system run for profit well-being is a secondary concern. When money comes first people suffer. Malpractive suit caps will not solve the fact that health insurance companies drop people from their roles without justification. People with existing health conditions cannot get new coverage and are left to suffer because their new insurance providers don't want to lose money.

Capping malpractice lowers expenses and the cost of insurance for professionals is absolutely crazy so I agree with you on that.

The whole problem is much more systemic than malpratice caps though.

45 million people do not have health insurance in America. That's a huge number and is unacceptable. Insurance companies are terrible and they do injustices to humanity every minute for the sake of dollars.

[Frank Lee]

We already have a form of nationalized health care..... Its called the VA

[navysully]

The VA is more than just nationalized healthcare.... you had to have actually done someting for it.. instead of just sitting on your ass and collecting a check. I took a mortar for my VA claims. You?

[Frank Lee]

Don't get it (VA) ... but your response is as predictable as day after night.

Your service is appreciated, but the fact remains that a certain segment of our population does not have to worry about their health care coverage because their employer (in this case the US gov) provides it... forever, at the expense of the US taxpayer. The VA is a system set up much like a socialized medical program....Is it not ?

The healthcare and pension plans of government employees are far superior to the regular working class, who foot the bill. They (the gov), just mask it as fair and just compensation.

Now go ahead and slam me for being a bad American, or convince me otherwise.

[navysully]

No. The VA sucks. For the most part is it military doctors and they are not top of the line. I needed back surgery and couldn't get it in DC as all the Orthopedic Suregeons were deployed. They wouldn't refer me out. It's "free" sure... but top of the line it is not.

I am now a US government employee. My insurance is blue cross blue shield and I pay for my insurance just like everyone else. So I don't get how you can say that US Gov employees have it so much better?

[Sun Scorched]

If you socialize healthcare this is a guaranteed:

All of the great doctors will go offshore and open up clinics in places like the Grand Caymans and the Bahamas. There will essentially be a black market for good healthcare with only the ultra rich being able to fly down and afford the best medical attention available.

This is called "brain drain" and it's a well catalouged phenomena. Essentially, once you regulate an industry to death all of the really smart and talented people fly to a new industry or local that isn't regulated.

Take mutual funds for example; it used to be the case that very talented folks ran mutual funds, something we can all invest in and benefit from. When the government started regulating mutual funds heavily, all of the really good money managers went on to private equity shops, venture capital firms and hedge funds... things common people cannot invest in.

Because of government interference, the average American lost access to one of the best sources of capital preservation and growth. There was a massive shift of knowledge out of the public realm and into the exclusive private realm.

Just like we were left with average money managers, so too will we be left with average doctors.

Also, when people don't have to pay the actual costs of healthcare, they tend to take it for granted.

[rsavaj]

If you socialize healthcare this is a guaranteed:

All of the great doctors will go offshore and open up clinics in places like the Grand Caymans and the Bahamas. There will essentially be a black market for good healthcare with only the ultra rich being able to fly down and afford the best medical attention available..

I don't think that's true; a lot of the countries ahead of us in the WHO rankings have socialized healthcare systems and their doctors are extremely qualified.