Bryan Colangelo

[Seattlesun]

I gotta disagree on some of this. Getting ANYTHING for googs was good, and the sign and trade for Penny was a great move at the time, not knowing he would have the injury issue. The Suns gave up nothing but money there and got it all back by moving him and Steph to get them Nash - a move made by Bryan Colangelo.

The good thing about BC is that he was trained by his father who did things the right way. In sports, nothing is guaranteed, you build a team and you hope it works. As long as you do things the right way with a goal towards winning, you have a chance. Ultimately, BC will be successful in Toronto if he stays there. I wish he was still in Phx.[/quote]

Yeah I disagree with a couple of these

Googs was out of the picture long before we shipped him. He willingly gave Amar'e his starting spot and his minutes. Getting cap relief was a bonus.

Q for Kurt Thomas was a great trade. Thomas was one of those guys we would STILL like to have around. A piece like that puts a good team in contention.

You can't really call the Penny deal a bad deal either

And Seattlesun, I agree with your comments about BC...I wish we still had him as well and see him being successful.[/quote]

and i disagree with most of this:

the ONE thing BC was good at was bailing himself out of STUPID moves he made himself.

1.) he traded Kidd for Marbury. the reason behind it was stupid at the time, and it is stupid now. Kidd is a HOF, while Marbury.....well Marbury is Marbury
2.) he traded 2 Firsts, 2 Seconds, and Wesley Person for McDyess. There was no security in trading for an expiring rookie contract at the time, and he proceeded to walk right back to denver after one season.
3.) he traded a first round pick for freaking Luc Longley
4.) he resigned Marbury.....but was able to unload him.
5.) he traded for Penny. YES this was a bad deal. Penny was obvious damanged goods from the start. he had missed 23, 61 and 32 games the previous three years before the deal. AND it cost us 2 first round picks to get him.
6.) traded #7 pick for a future first....who ended up being nate robinson....who then turned into nothing (i know it wasnt BC though)
7.) he traded Googs and 2 first rounders for cap space. i know this was a move to sell the team....but it was HORRIBLE
8.) drafted and then traded Gortat to the Magic for nothing

there have been many things he HASNT done that he should have also. but i'm done nameing[/quote]

This is awful. you focus only on the bad moves made at a time the Suns sucked. All these moves you think were bad preceded the moves that led to the Suns making two consecutive WCF. I met Bryan here in Seattle for a game in 2005 when they were like 32-5 or something, and thanked him for the team. Its easy to point out the negatives because it takes less energy. But the Suns stunk for the moves you point out and all he did was take them from bad/mediocre to contender. That's his job.

Give me a person that looks only at the negatives of a person and I'll give you a person that will amount to nothing.

[lilfishi22]

I wouldn't say Bosh is part the problem, in the same way I wouldn't say Wade is part the problem in Miami. I think Bosh's versatility and scoring ability allows him to be the go-to guy for a championship team. Obviously, he's not in the same league in terms of scoring, as guys like Wade, Kobe, Lebron or Melo but he can still be the best player on a championship team. If you look at the shots that are assisted, Bosh is in line with one of the top scorers in the NBA, Kevin Durant, both at 51%, so if Durant can be the best player on a contender, so can Bosh.

But of course, he can't do it by himself. Who BC surrounds his best player with pretty much determines how good of a GM he is. In that respect, I think BC has been a disappointment. Bosh is kind of like Amare, they both need a strong defensive/rebounding presence next to them and BC has not delivered that. BC has also failed to provide with a 2nd scorer Bosh so desperately needs, the last 20ppg scorer he played with was Mike James ffs. If Bosh leaves, the Raps might be able to get some young players and picks for him but they still have 30year old Hedo in their books for another 4-5 seasons and Calderon and Bargnani for another 3-4 seasons. Hedo is a bad signing no matter how you look at it, he's not a particularly good fit for them and he's overpaid.

From my point of view, I just can't see how the Raptor's roster is put together very well. Outside of Bosh, they got big money committed to role players who can't really carry a team. There's just no way the are a better team without Bosh, in the same way people say we're not a better team without Amare, long or short term. We are basically in the same situation as they are in, except we have less long-term money committed but if we lose Amare, we're looking at a fringe playoff team at best for the next 3-5 seasons. I'd love to see Amare resigned and then make some moves once we get some cap space next off-season.

[Hobo Gonzolez]

His Q-rich move cost the suns 4 picks overall.

[lilfishi22]

All the while Presti collected 3 first round picks for a 38year old KT.

[Frank Lee]

Who here would take BC over Kerr-plunk ? While I do not think BC has truly GM of the yr talent... I think hiring Kerr was a step sideways and back some. BCs rapid exit was a tell tale sign displaying Knobert's penchant for yes men. Plus, the Colonjellos unloaded alot of cash and made suspect trades with their domino style dealing... Knobert, I think , just had enough, and figured he and Kerr-plunk couldn't do worse....

I really dont miss BC... or JC for that matter. Its just easy to think that due to their replacements (D'Ant included). Good luck to you raptor fans, as BC is no golden boy GM.

[lilfishi22]

I would actually prefer BC over Kerr. While BC has made some questionable moves both with the Suns and with the Raptors, he knew the moves he was going to make will have a big impact of the team and he knew where he wants to team to be.

With Kerr, I seriously don't think he has any idea where he wants to take us. It just seems like he hasn't planned more than 2 weeks ahead and he's making decisions as they come. If I had the choice between BC and Kerr, I'd take the one that has a clear idea of where he wants to team to be.

[tsherkin]

b-ball and Orange_Blooded both brought up some fair points. Colangelo is far from a terrible GM, to be sure. He's active, he's got big stones and he's got a vision.

I HATE his vision because it's stupid and flawed, but he's got a vision and he has been able in the past to cobble together some teams that have been reasonably competitive. Sometimes, when he makes concessions to the need for more "American" style elements, the teams are even pretty good.

The best players on the Raptors of the last few years have been Bosh, TJ Ford, Jarrett Jack and Amir Johnson, mostly. Naturally, there have been moments for guys like Calderon, Garbajosa, even times when Bargs looks like a viable piece. Rasho was a good pick. Anthony Parker is technically American but honed his game and his usefulness overseas. Etc, etc, etc.

There's definitely some positive aspects of his choices; we emphasize ball movement and shooting, so even though we don't have really great iso scorers, we're still a top-5 offense because we'll burn the Hell out of you from every position. The corollary is that we don't have iso scorers, so when the jumpers aren't falling, we aren't nearly as good, but we make sound use of screens and what-not.

Toronto, when healthy (whatever that means, since injuries hit pretty much every team eventually), the Raptors are pretty solidly locked into a 40- to 45-win talent level. And that's cool, I mean, it's better than a lot of what we've had before. BC has given us half of our playoff appearances, a division title and a return to relevance, which is more than can be said of, for example, Rob Babcock (unless you count being the laughing stock of the league being "relevant," though I believe it to miss the point).

Look at Toronto's roster and tell me the pieces aren't there to compete in the East. For whatever reason the team hasn't clicked. maybe its the coach, maybe its chemistry but I think as far as the roster is concerned Toronto BC has done a solid job.

100%, "the pieces aren't there to compete in the East."

There's nothing about Toronto's roster that can compete with Atlanta, Boston, Cleveland or Orlando in a 7-game series. Period. We'd get killed on the glass, killed on D at the point, the wing and the center position and we flat-out do not have the consistency in our offense to really damage those teams over a playoff matchup. Toronto isn't a team that's competitive for anything other than a one-and-done.

Bargnani was a solid selection, he has developed into a very good player, may be an allstar if Bosh bolts. If they had to do it over again I'm sure they would have picked Aldridge Roy or Gay but Bargnani has not been a bust at all. Especially considering all the busts that were drafted in the top 10 that year.

Bargnani was a bad selection. Maybe not necessarily because of the player, since there were plenty of questions about all of the top picks and the draft class as a whole hasn't been spectacular, but the manner in which BC approached it (making EVERYONE aware he was taking Bargs) precluded any kind of interesting deals. Setting aside for the moment that, which is technically conjecture and therefore not so reliable, selecting Bargs was redundant with our team, didn't address any of our needs and didn't even have the quality of being a BPA pick, since there was no consensus BPA.

In 06, the top 10 picks were:

Bargs, Aldridge, Morrison, Tyrus Thomas, Shelden Williams, Brandon Roy, Randy Foye, Rudy Gay, Patrick O'Bryant and Saer Sene.

Of those, Sene, POB, Williams and Morrison are spectacularly useless. Morrison was a guy with giant question marks all over him because all he could do was shoot and was terrifically unathletic, kind of like a taller Redick. POB was interesting because of his size, but had motor issues and an absence of skill aside from a righty hook and the ability to spin baseline for a lob pass and dunk. Thomas was interesting because of his athleticism, but was red-flagged for character issues and an absence of real skill and basketball IQ. He's since proven to be a decent rebounder, a good defender and to have some offensive ability but isn't a lot better than he was as a rookie. Rudy Gay has been very good. Roy obviously shook off the concerns over his knee and has played particularly well, clearly the best player on that list. Bargs has been OK. Aldridge is kind of like Bargs, a perimeter-oriented big man. Better post moves, slightly better rebounding, better defense. Would have been a more interesting player to have... but like Bargs, he sort of conflicts with Bosh because he's a natural PF.

Clearly, the answer here was to chase one of the guards or wings, because they were at least as talented as the guys in the frontcourt (who didn't evidence the things that give value to big men, traditionally speaking) and were of more pressing importance to our team.

Bargs was a poor choice. I can understand not drafting for need if you're going BPA, but Bargs was very much not the BPA, and I don't mean that retrospectively; there was nothing suggesting he was the best player available at the time of the draft, only that BC had a history of scouting him and Italian roots and whatever excuse you prefer that predisposed him towards drafting Andrea (but even if he'd taken Aldridge, I'd probably be moaning because many of the same issues would remain).

The jury's still out on DeRozan.. he has a ton of potential but maybe Jennings should have been the pick here. Although he seemed like quite the knuckle head so I don't blame BC for that one. Collison wouldn't have been bad either but everyone seemed to underrate him.

Hypothetically, Jennings would have been the better pick but for me, the idea that BC went out of his way to draft an athletic American 2-guard (a position of need) is actually a sign that he pays attention to the needs of the team. We aren't using DeRozan as a scorer and he has evidenced noticeable improvement on D, which has been pretty valuable (especially because he's a good rebounder for his position). We couldn't have really known what Jennings would be up to; in any case, he continues to defend well (Jennings), shoot the 3 pretty well and pass in a manner consistent with his position. He's been very good. Much beyond that though, and this draft has been a big bust so far (obviously Blair has been good, but there's only so much you can expect, right? Especially after the Kapono-for-Evans trade).

Anyway, DeRozan has been good; he hasn't been played like other top picks have, hasn't really had the opportunity. He's young, he's got some shot selection issues and isn't a great ball-handler but he could develop. Not a bad pick for the slot he was in, and we missed the draft position we needed to plumb this draft class anyhow.

Garbajosa was a great singing, unfortunately he got hurt then went back to Europe. Belinelli was a good trade. Delfino trade was a good trade, Marion Trade was a good trade for Toronto as he was the most valuable asset in the deal. Turkigklu was a good singing even if he hasn't exactly thrived there. Other good signings include Moon, Kapono and Jack among others.

Garbo was a great signing, just like Anthony Parker. He fit in really well and helped key our defense with his rotations. Good piece offensively, too, even if he shot a little too often. Belinelli was a good trade in principle; hasn't worked out super well but it was basically a something-for-nothing move, so that was good.

Delfino was an OK trade, nothing special. Mediocre offensive player, decent defender and good rebounder.

The Marion trade was great; the JO trade was stupid... but the JO trade was also a move that again showed that BC was either a) throwing a bone to conventional basketball or more optimistically b) clearly seeing the VOID in the middle for Toronto and trying to plug it. JO was too old, too broken and too bad to be of use. He has never been good as a C, he's a natural PF.

The Marion trade was an excellent SALVAGE of that trade, even if it robbed us of Ford (who had some issues with his role that shouldn't be ignored, of course). Marion fit in well; we would have been better if we'd found a way to keep him here, because the Turkoglu move was stupid as hell. Hedo doesn't rebound, doesn't assert himself as a scorer, is a bad man defender and has a big contract. Not a good move.

Overall I think BC's tenure in Toronto has been a success. I think the raptors were summed up really well by Michael Wilbon today on PTI when he said "the parts are greater than the whole in Toronto, They got enough Talent... They got nice Parts there.. they're under achieving."

We're a LITTLE better than we are now, sure. We're a 45-win team who could reasonably compete for the 5th seed if we could stay healthy. But if one guy gets hurt for an extended period, we're screwed and that's a sign of poor depth, chemistry and roster composition.

I would be careful about "success" as far as describing his term here. He's been somewhere between mediocre and marginally above average. He's tried stuff, he's succeeded a little, he's screwed up more, he's corrected his mistakes, he's tried to inject convention into his unconventional plan... And the end result is that we've been out of the playoffs as often as in and we have one season worth mentioning, the 47-win season, which is tied for the best season in franchise history (though not the best postseason success).

That's... OK, but given our future prospects (provided he doesn't shake things up and get us back on track, which is possible) and our continual mediocrity, "success" doesn't accurately describe his time as our GM.

Time for a proven Coach... If they can re-sign Bosh.[/quote]