Good article: Channing is the key to our offense

[Wannabe MEP]

Did ya'll notice what happened last night? Because it was exactly what happened last season.

When Frye moved to the bench, it wasn't that the first unit improved...it was that the bench improved. Dramatically.

Nash-JRich-Hill-Stat-Frye was actually quite a bit better than
Nash-JRich-Hill-Stat-Fropez

But Dragic-Barbosa-Dudley-Lou-Frye (and variations) quickly became the best second unit in the league. According to adj +/-, that unit was actually better than Nash-JRich-Hill-Stat-Fropez, and it's not even close. Same thing in the playoffs.

Now if we look at playoff units with a minimum of 50 minutes on the court together, the two best units (and the only two units with positive adj +/-) are:
1) Nash-JRich-Dudley-Stat-Frye
2) Dragic-Barbosa-Dudley-Lou-Frye

Do you see? The common themes?
1) Frye
2) Dudley
3) FOUR OUT WITH FOUR THREE-POINT SHOOTERS ON THE COURT TOGETHER

Last night, the Suns were ahead 18-14 when Frye and Dudley checked in together. For one of the first times all season--perhaps the first time all season--the Suns had a solid defensive team that included Frye, Dudley, and FOUR OUT WITH FOUR THREE-POINT SHOOTERS ON THE COURT TOGETHER.

They proceeded to demolish the Pistons, 32-14 over the next 10 minutes.

[Wannabe MEP]

Yes, I know spacing is important, especially to Nash's game... but I am growing weary of watching him dribble around and around while 3 guys camp outside the arc, and our center sets a high pick.

Nash has had very few minutes playing four out with four three-point shooters. Yeah, we're playing four out, but one of the players camped on the perimeter doesn't shoot threes. That kills the spacing, because that player's man sags into the paint. So Nash has to deal with his own defender, his PnR partner's defender, and another help defender.

Out of the eight units Nash has played with this year that have enough minutes to log an adj +/- score, only one has four out with four three-point shooters: Nash-JRich-Dudley-Warrick-Frye. That unit has an offensive rating of 127.66 and a defensive rating of 100.00.

Nash's top three units (which, not coincidentally, are the top three units overall for the Suns) include Frye and Dudley.

[Wannabe MEP]

Do you remember at the beginning of the season when everyone was up on Dragic's nuts, saying he was playing better than Nash and sh*t like that? What happened since then?

Frye moved to the starting unit, Dragic lost his spacing, and the second unit has looked horrendous ever since.

Until last night, that is.

[Sundamental]

You know I agree with you Soles on this issue but your stretching to attribute last nights performance to just this one change. Gortat's calling out of the defense had just as big of an effect if not more. Don't forget that last year's second unit fed off of there defense. It got them going and their offense benefited. Notice how last night at times the second unit was playing full court defense. Dragic even stole a pass at half court and went in for a lay-up. Overall, the second unit just had better tempo.

[Wannabe MEP]

You know I agree with you Soles on this issue but your stretching to attribute last nights performance to just this one change. Gortat's calling out of the defense had just as big of an effect if not more. Don't forget that last year's second unit fed off of there defense. It got them going and their offense benefited. Notice how last night at times the second unit was playing full court defense. Dragic even stole a pass at half court and went in for a lay-up. Overall, the second unit just had better tempo.

Yeah...there's some truth to that, although I heavily doubt you can pin so much on "Gortat's calling out of the defense." Everybody was pretty much on the same page after giving up 123 to the 76ers, not just Gortat. The team focused on D and simplified the defensive sets, which makes even more sense while incorporating new guys.

But isn't this also just the inevitable success of the defensive upgrade through trade? Bring in three defensive-minded players, and the defense gets better (given a little time to transition, of course)? How important is that, Sundamental?

[swe_suns]

You know I agree with you Soles on this issue but your stretching to attribute last nights performance to just this one change. Gortat's calling out of the defense had just as big of an effect if not more. Don't forget that last year's second unit fed off of there defense. It got them going and their offense benefited. Notice how last night at times the second unit was playing full court defense. Dragic even stole a pass at half court and went in for a lay-up. Overall, the second unit just had better tempo.

I think you nailed it. The 2nd unit's focus should lie on minimizing the the opponents scoring. But at the same time it should contain a lot of 3pt shooters (for spacing). Some nights when the shots are falling the 2nd unit will blow out the opponents 2nd unit and other nights they will tie which isn't bad at all. Something along Dragic/Pietrus/Dudley/Gortat/Frye or replace Pietrus with VC because VC can create his own shot.

One way to play VC together with Dragic and to start him is to do something like this

First 6 minutes you go Nash/VC. Then you sub in Dragic for VC, let VC rest 3-4 minutes and then sub in VC for Nash and Play Dragic/VC in the backcourt. I think some1 already proposed this idea in some other threads.

[Sundamental]

You know I agree with you Soles on this issue but your stretching to attribute last nights performance to just this one change. Gortat's calling out of the defense had just as big of an effect if not more. Don't forget that last year's second unit fed off of there defense. It got them going and their offense benefited. Notice how last night at times the second unit was playing full court defense. Dragic even stole a pass at half court and went in for a lay-up. Overall, the second unit just had better tempo.

Yeah...there's some truth to that, although I heavily doubt you can pin so much on "Gortat's calling out of the defense." Everybody was pretty much on the same page after giving up 123 to the 76ers, not just Gortat. The team focused on D and simplified the defensive sets, which makes even more sense while incorporating new guys.

But isn't this also just the inevitable success of the defensive upgrade through trade? Bring in three defensive-minded players, and the defense gets better (given a little time to transition, of course)? How important is that, Sundamental?

Right, it wasn't just Gortat. everybody got behind it but I think his words had to have been heard quite loudly. especially by Gentry. In fact, I think he heard them the clearest.

I liked what I saw last night. I know it was against the Pistons but we played a bad team and beat them like we should beat a bad team. That's a start. I hope you're right about the defense. You know I don't like the trade but I've bitched enough about it. I'll stop. I don't think a trade should have been needed to get this team to play better but if that's what it takes, so be it. It'd be nice to see a continuation of this play against Sacramento.

[Sundamental]

You know I agree with you Soles on this issue but your stretching to attribute last nights performance to just this one change. Gortat's calling out of the defense had just as big of an effect if not more. Don't forget that last year's second unit fed off of there defense. It got them going and their offense benefited. Notice how last night at times the second unit was playing full court defense. Dragic even stole a pass at half court and went in for a lay-up. Overall, the second unit just had better tempo.

I think you nailed it. The 2nd unit's focus should lie on minimizing the the opponents scoring. But at the same time it should contain a lot of 3pt shooters (for spacing). Some nights when the shots are falling the 2nd unit will blow out the opponents 2nd unit and other nights they will tie which isn't bad at all. Something along Dragic/Pietrus/Dudley/Gortat/Frye or replace Pietrus with VC because VC can create his own shot.

One way to play VC together with Dragic and to start him is to do something like this

First 6 minutes you go Nash/VC. Then you sub in Dragic for VC, let VC rest 3-4 minutes and then sub in VC for Nash and Play Dragic/VC in the backcourt. I think some1 already proposed this idea in some other threads.

Very good point re: VC. This exactly what SVG is doing with Turk in Orlando. Play 6 or 7 minutes then sit the rest of the first quarter. Then he plays the second quarter to help run the second unit. I think this would work well with VC.

[dantian]

If Channing **** Frye is the KEY to our offense, we're screwed. We should not depend on a streaky role player.

My thought exactly!

[rsavaj]

Did ya'll notice what happened last night? Because it was exactly what happened last season.

When Frye moved to the bench, it wasn't that the first unit improved...it was that the bench improved. Dramatically.

Nash-JRich-Hill-Stat-Frye was actually quite a bit better than
Nash-JRich-Hill-Stat-Fropez

But Dragic-Barbosa-Dudley-Lou-Frye (and variations) quickly became the best second unit in the league. According to adj +/-, that unit was actually better than Nash-JRich-Hill-Stat-Fropez, and it's not even close. Same thing in the playoffs.

Now if we look at playoff units with a minimum of 50 minutes on the court together, the two best units (and the only two units with positive adj +/-) are:
1) Nash-JRich-Dudley-Stat-Frye
2) Dragic-Barbosa-Dudley-Lou-Frye

Do you see? The common themes?
1) Frye
2) Dudley
3) FOUR OUT WITH FOUR THREE-POINT SHOOTERS ON THE COURT TOGETHER

Last night, the Suns were ahead 18-14 when Frye and Dudley checked in together. For one of the first times all season--perhaps the first time all season--the Suns had a solid defensive team that included Frye, Dudley, and FOUR OUT WITH FOUR THREE-POINT SHOOTERS ON THE COURT TOGETHER.

They proceeded to demolish the Pistons, 32-14 over the next 10 minutes.

Excellent post

[Wannabe MEP]

By the way, the Suns best net defensive ratings (min 200 minutes with Suns) are:
1) Dudley
2) Frye
3) Warrick
4) Nash
5) Childress

Frye is a good defender. The defensive struggles are not his fault.

Amazing how you use statistics. You defend Frye using statistics that are clearly flawed. Anyone who's watched the Suns this year knows Warrick is god awful at defense. And Nash is not far behind. So how relevant are they. I'm not saying Frye is a poor defender. I think he's adequate and improving but I'm not basing that on some arcane stat.

I guess I missed this response.

These are almost exactly what I would have expected. Is Warrick a great defender? Hell no. But we have had almost no frontcourt for most of the season. He was a massive upgrade defensively over Hedo. Frye is a good defender, but he was even more important defensively with Fropez injured. It's these two or...Barron? Siler? Turk? This is not rocket science.

Dudley and Childress are good/great defenders, and Nash is severely underrated defensively. As I've said time and again, Nash has played his entire career alongside a poor defensive frontcourt. The frontcourt anchors the defense.

[Wannabe MEP]

Did ya'll notice what happened last night? Because it was exactly what happened last season.

When Frye moved to the bench, it wasn't that the first unit improved...it was that the bench improved. Dramatically.

Nash-JRich-Hill-Stat-Frye was actually quite a bit better than
Nash-JRich-Hill-Stat-Fropez

But Dragic-Barbosa-Dudley-Lou-Frye (and variations) quickly became the best second unit in the league. According to adj +/-, that unit was actually better than Nash-JRich-Hill-Stat-Fropez, and it's not even close. Same thing in the playoffs.

Now if we look at playoff units with a minimum of 50 minutes on the court together, the two best units (and the only two units with positive adj +/-) are:
1) Nash-JRich-Dudley-Stat-Frye
2) Dragic-Barbosa-Dudley-Lou-Frye

Do you see? The common themes?
1) Frye
2) Dudley
3) FOUR OUT WITH FOUR THREE-POINT SHOOTERS ON THE COURT TOGETHER

Last night, the Suns were ahead 18-14 when Frye and Dudley checked in together. For one of the first times all season--perhaps the first time all season--the Suns had a solid defensive team that included Frye, Dudley, and FOUR OUT WITH FOUR THREE-POINT SHOOTERS ON THE COURT TOGETHER.

They proceeded to demolish the Pistons, 32-14 over the next 10 minutes.

Excellent post

Thank you.

[Frank Lee]

When you say 'Four Out' are you referring to 4 guys at the arc?

Also, I did not see the game last night.... was Gortat playing PF ? there has been some reference to that here and there.

After giving Frye his shot at PF, I think , and it looks like it from last night, that his true spot of effectiveness is back up C. He isnt quick enough to handle athletic PFs, and not strong enough to handle the beasts. But he is long enough to defend most centers, especially second stringers.

[Wannabe MEP]

When you say 'Four Out' are you referring to 4 guys at the arc?

Yes.

Also, I did not see the game last night.... was Gortat playing PF ? there has been some reference to that here and there.

pf vs c is arbitrary.

When Frye and Gortat play together, Frye spaces the floor on offense, while Gortat plays down low. Then they each guard the guy that makes most sense according to the matchup.

[Sundamental]

By the way, the Suns best net defensive ratings (min 200 minutes with Suns) are:
1) Dudley
2) Frye
3) Warrick
4) Nash
5) Childress

Frye is a good defender. The defensive struggles are not his fault.

Amazing how you use statistics. You defend Frye using statistics that are clearly flawed. Anyone who's watched the Suns this year knows Warrick is god awful at defense. And Nash is not far behind. So how relevant are they. I'm not saying Frye is a poor defender. I think he's adequate and improving but I'm not basing that on some arcane stat.

I guess I missed this response.

These are almost exactly what I would have expected. Is Warrick a great defender? Hell no. But we have had almost no frontcourt for most of the season. He was a massive upgrade defensively over Hedo. Frye is a good defender, but he was even more important defensively with Fropez injured. It's these two or...Barron? Siler? Turk? This is not rocket science.

Dudley and Childress are good/great defenders, and Nash is severely underrated defensively. As I've said time and again, Nash has played his entire career alongside a poor defensive frontcourt. The frontcourt anchors the defense.

If you think that Warrick is massively better than Turk as a defender I guess we'll just have to disagree. Go watch the Orlando games where Turk did an excellent job on Dirk, Josh Smith and Paul Pierce. Don't believe me and don't want to watch, go read what people said about it. On his best days, Warrick couldn't begin to do that. I'm sorry, but this is the type of thinking that forced the Suns to make this trade. No one understood his value on the offensive or the defensive end (and I don't mean on some internet forum. I mean within the organization.) I think time will show this point to be correct.

As to my original point about your use of stats to defend Frye, I 'll stand by my original point. The stats are flawed. Hell, Hill isn't even listed in our top five defenders so how am I to put faith in a stat that reaches that conclusion?

[Wannabe MEP]

About Turk:
1) We're talking about frontcourt defense. I'm pretty sure we're all unanimous about the fact that Turk was a horrendous defender at the four.
2) He's slow and lazy, but that's hidden much better on the Magic. The frontcourt anchors the defense, and Turk's defensive flaws don't matter so much with Howard and Bass behind him. He was simply a poor fit with the Suns. You're the only one who doesn't see that.

About Hill:
1) I've said all along that defensive rating is limited, just like every other stat. The limitation in this case is that defensive rating and net defensive rating are heavily tied to the players you play with and/or your backup. In this case, Hill is probably dragged down significantly by playing alongside JRich and Turk.
2) I think Hill is a good defender, but I have made no secret of the fact that I think he's overrated--particularly on offense, but somewhat on defense as well. He's old. I think Dudley, Childress, and Pietrus are better defenders. The stats agree (although there is limited data to make that call--Dudley is the only one beyond doubt).