We have no identity

[BurningHeart]

Four out with this group only works in spurts. The consistency of the shooters is just not there. Nash and Dudley are our only truly reliable three point shooters. Frye and Dragic are not as consistent, Pietrus is WILDLY inconsistent, and Carter/Childress/Hill are much, MUCH better suited to play inside the 3pt line.

[JohnVancouver]

Four out with this group only works in spurts. The consistency of the shooters is just not there. Nash and Dudley are our only truly reliable three point shooters. Frye and Dragic are not as consistent, Pietrus is WILDLY inconsistent, and Carter/Childress/Hill are much, MUCH better suited to play inside the 3pt line.

Fair enough, but Carter, Frye and Pietrus are all shooters that have to be respected by the defense, which is a good start. All three are able to go on dangerous streaks - dangerous to the opponent, and dangerous to us when they're cold.

but we've mostly lived and died by the three for how long?

[BurningHeart]

Four out with this group only works in spurts. The consistency of the shooters is just not there. Nash and Dudley are our only truly reliable three point shooters. Frye and Dragic are not as consistent, Pietrus is WILDLY inconsistent, and Carter/Childress/Hill are much, MUCH better suited to play inside the 3pt line.

Fair enough, but Carter, Frye and Pietrus are all shooters that have to be respected by the defense, which is a good start. All three are able to go on dangerous streaks - dangerous to the opponent, and dangerous to us when they're cold.

but we've mostly lived and died by the three for how long?

Very true.

[Azsports77]

This is due to us not having a power forward position and so Alvin has played Channing Frye at the position most of the time and Gortat a little. Last season Frye played the and created spacing by hitting threes he forced the opposition to spread its self and thus created space and getting resigned. Sarver the genius decided that he wasn't going to resign Amare to a max contract had failed to come up with a replacement plan for that position but knew he had to do something to shore it up . He brilliantly knew that if he brought in a new Gm then he might have to actually pay for some talent to come in no reason why he couldn't so he signed two average free agents that no one wanted and trade for a below average player except when on the magic. All the while failing to realize that getting a decent power forward would be fatal to the team and Saver proved just how little brain mass he truly has. Now we are getting closer to the trade deadline and this team isn't going to make the playoffs but all he has to do is get a decent Power forward which would slide Frye back to where he is most effective and this team will be radically different but Does Saver get that or is he the worlds biggest jackass only the trade deadline well tell!

[Wannabe MEP]

Four out with this group only works in spurts. The consistency of the shooters is just not there. Nash and Dudley are our only truly reliable three point shooters. Frye and Dragic are not as consistent, Pietrus is WILDLY inconsistent, and Carter/Childress/Hill are much, MUCH better suited to play inside the 3pt line.

Career 3-point %:

Pietrus: 36.0%
Carter: 37.5%
Frye: 40.0%

40% from three = 60% from two.

All shoot higher percentages when they are consistently getting open looks, which happens regularly in a four-out offense with some offensive spark (even without Nash or Amare, as last year's second team showed).

For example:
Carter made 108 threes on 42.5% in 2004-2005 playing in an open system with Kidd and RJ.
Pietrus made 116 threes on 37.9% in 2009-2010 playing in Orlando's open system.
Frye made 172 threes on 43.9% in 2009-2010 playing in Phoenix's open system.

Gentlemen, that is incredibly efficient basketball, not just because of the eFG%, but also because of the yin yang value of inside-outside-inside-outside-inside-outside-inside-outside...

[JohnVancouver]

This is due to us not having a power forward position and so Alvin has played Channing Frye at the position most of the time and Gortat a little. Last season Frye played the and created spacing by hitting threes he forced the opposition to spread its self and thus created space and getting resigned. Sarver the genius decided that he wasn't going to resign Amare to a max contract had failed to come up with a replacement plan for that position but knew he had to do something to shore it up . He brilliantly knew that if he brought in a new Gm then he might have to actually pay for some talent to come in no reason why he couldn't so he signed two average free agents that no one wanted and trade for a below average player except when on the magic. All the while failing to realize that getting a decent power forward would be fatal to the team and Saver proved just how little brain mass he truly has. Now we are getting closer to the trade deadline and this team isn't going to make the playoffs but all he has to do is get a decent Power forward which would slide Frye back to where he is most effective and this team will be radically different but Does Saver get that or is he the worlds biggest jackass only the trade deadline well tell!

that's an intimidating block of text - easier to read if you separate into paragraphs

[JohnVancouver]

Four out with this group only works in spurts. The consistency of the shooters is just not there. Nash and Dudley are our only truly reliable three point shooters. Frye and Dragic are not as consistent, Pietrus is WILDLY inconsistent, and Carter/Childress/Hill are much, MUCH better suited to play inside the 3pt line.

Career 3-point %:

Pietrus: 36.0%
Carter: 37.5%
Frye: 40.0%

40% from three = 60% from two.

All shoot higher percentages when they are consistently getting open looks, which happens regularly in a four-out offense with some offensive spark (even without Nash or Amare, as last year's second team showed).

For example:
Carter made 108 threes on 42.5% in 2004-2005 playing in an open system with Kidd and RJ.
Pietrus made 116 threes on 37.9% in 2009-2010 playing in Orlando's open system.
Frye made 172 threes on 43.9% in 2009-2010 playing in Phoenix's open system.

Gentlemen, that is incredibly efficient basketball, not just because of the eFG%, but also because of the yin yang value of inside-outside-inside-outside-inside-outside-inside-outside...

LS - as a fellow ink-stained wretch, I forwarded your proposal/theory to PCoro with suggestion he run it by Alvin G. Thought he might get a story out of it and told him how to contact you either through me or the mods
hope that's okay by you -

[Wannabe MEP]

LS - as a fellow ink-stained wretch, I forwarded your proposal/theory to PCoro with suggestion he run it by Alvin G. Thought he might get a story out of it and told him how to contact you either through me or the mods
hope that's okay by you -

Wow. I mean, yours doesn't sound like a sarcastic comment. Your other posts usually aren't. I'm trying to decide whether I believe that you have a captive audience in PCoro, or that he has a captive audience in Gentry...

I was 100% certain that everything on these forums was completely irrelevant. But hey, worth a shot. Be interesting if Coro wrote about it. And absolutely it's ok.

[Miklo]

The question isn't whether JohnVC has ties to them, it's whether they have ties to him. He's big stuff in the league.

[Frank Lee]

The question isn't whether JohnVC has ties to them, it's whether they have ties to him. He's big stuff in the league.

Yup, an office of rich mahogany

[Kerrsed]

Im starting to believe that JohnVC is really Gordon Gekko.

The question isn't whether JohnVC has ties to them, it's whether they have ties to him. He's big stuff in the league.

Yup, an office of rich mahogany

Mahogany....... and Marble.

[Wannabe MEP]

I divided last year's per unit adj. +/- data (no one seems to be looking at the per unit data--I guess it's too foreign a concept??) and compared units based on how many 3-point shooters were on the court. Interesting, yes?

Four 3-point shooters
2009-2010 reg. season (30 minute minimum)
+23.12
+15.34
+14.90
+10.61
+5.71
+1.92
-0.43

2010 playoffs (15 minute minimum)
+9.85
+5.09
+4.78
+4.35

Three 3-point shooters
2009-2010 reg. season (30 minute minimum)
+25.72
+15.34
+11.95
+5.90
+5.58
+3.90
+0.30
-0.30
-5.54
-8.65
-10.75
-10.84
-15.43

2010 playoffs (15 minute minimum)
+7.12
-0.60
-10.85

Two 3-point shooters
2009-2010 reg. season (30 minute minimum)
+9.96
-2.82
-4.03
-6.68

2010 playoffs (15 minute minimum)
-3.92
-7.92

[Wannabe MEP]

So...huge caveat after last night's game. I still think our #1 identity is: run-n-gun, four-out with four three point shooters, SSOL, etc.

But I was very impressed last night with our ability to match up and exchange blows with the Blazers in a slower game at times. Hill, Carter, Lopez, Frye, Warrick, and Gortat all made plays that were more Laker-esque than I'm used to seeing from the Suns. I was very impressed with Hill , definitely because he nailed two threes , but also because the team didn't look as bad as it has in recent weeks (years?) playing more conventionally.

Hill has bothered me immensely because he's dragged down SSOL, and we've just been so mediocre (if not awful) playing Hill's style. But a big part of it is that he's really been the only Sun who was clearly better suited for conventional ball than for SSOL.

Carter and Gortat may have changed that. I think either can play SSOL effectively, but they're similarly effective in a more conventional style. Iso-Hill-midrange by itself is a pretty pathetic plan, but iso-Hill-midrange + iso-Carter-midrange + high-low bigs has significantly more potential.

I still believe we are at our absolute best playing D'Antoni-ball when we have guys like Nash, Frye, and Dudley. But what about this: instead of half-assing SSOL, what if we played two completely different styles within each game?

SSOL/D'Antoni/Nash-style (Four 3-point shooters)

Nash/Dragic
Pietrus
Dudley
Childress/Warrick
Frye

(mix in Carter, Frotat, and Gorpez depending on matchups; play Dragic at the two sometimes; play some 2-3 zone; go small when Frye is out)

Conventional/Phil Jackson/Hill-style (Two 3-point shooters)

Nash/Dragic
Carter
Hill
Frotat
Gorpez

(again, mix in other players when appropriate; NEVER play 2-3 zone with Frotat and Gorpez in together)

Alter-ego?!?

[Miklo]

Interesting stuff LS, I can see the advantages of either system but the numbers you gave kind of reinforce the gut feeling I've had that things just start to feel forced when we don't have enough shooters out there.

I do also agree that from the ORL trade we are a little better suited to also run a more conventional style in some situations than we were before.

[JohnVancouver]

LS - as a fellow ink-stained wretch, I forwarded your proposal/theory to PCoro with suggestion he run it by Alvin G. Thought he might get a story out of it and told him how to contact you either through me or the mods
hope that's okay by you -

Wow. I mean, yours doesn't sound like a sarcastic comment. Your other posts usually aren't. I'm trying to decide whether I believe that you have a captive audience in PCoro, or that he has a captive audience in Gentry...

I was 100% certain that everything on these forums was completely irrelevant. But hey, worth a shot. Be interesting if Coro wrote about it. And absolutely it's ok.

No sarcasm at all - it's a valid, well-researched and argued theory and worth a serious look. I've been a pro writer for 20 years, 15 as reporter/editor at the Vancouver Sun and I know from experience that beat writers *always* need material. I simply mailed him through the paper, said Soles is a knowledgeable basketball guy and here's what he came up with - maybe it would make a nice piece, see what Alvin says -

worth a shot.

In the meantime I sit here in my $3,500 Executive Recliner, nubile interns bringing me sweetmeats and choice wine, and watch it all unfold through hooded eyes. Like a snake on a rock ......

[Wannabe MEP]

In the meantime I sit here in my $3,500 Executive Recliner, nubile interns bringing me sweetmeats and choice wine, and watch it all unfold through hooded eyes. Like a snake on a rock ......

OK, OK. I see the writing chops...

[Wannabe MEP]

Interesting stuff LS, I can see the advantages of either system but the numbers you gave kind of reinforce the gut feeling I've had that things just start to feel forced when we don't have enough shooters out there.

You know where I stand; the problem is Hill. Not that he's bad. It's that he's good. Just bench the guy or trade him if it was, say, Warrick who didn't fit the style.

But it's Grant Hill. Good player on a good contract. Veteran leader. Great character. Near legend of the game. Wonderful story of overcoming obstacles. Pillar of the community. Nash's close friend.

He is a stabilizing force. When things are bad, he makes them slightly less bad. When the offense has no flow, he gets off a decent shot anyway. When the defense is collapsing, he keeps working. But for the reasons I've spelled out repeatedly, when things are good, he makes them slightly less good. Because he limits our ability to overwhelm teams with SSOL.

Ergo: Intentionally play two completely different styles.

1) Fly all over teams with speed and shooting. Build a big lead.
2) Then protect that lead by slowing it down with Hill and the grind-it-out crew.

[JohnVancouver]

Im starting to believe that JohnVC is really Gordon Gekko.

The question isn't whether JohnVC has ties to them, it's whether they have ties to him. He's big stuff in the league.

Yup, an office of rich mahogany

Mahogany....... and Marble.

Close - it's made of mahogany and we play marbles there.

Serious marbles .....