A Question about Carter

[JohnVancouver]

^Hate to burst your bubble but it's "consensus" and there's no such thing as a Chinese current

yes, the japanese tide - and for full disclosure, I copped that from HS Thompson re: Hubert Humphrey

"A treacherous, gutless old ward-heeler who should be put in a goddamn bottle and sent out with the Japanese Current."

He also said:

"There'll never be another Hubert Humphrey. But he should be castrated anyway just to be on the safe side."


Few had the way with a curse and an insult that the Doc had

[Wannabe MEP]

I still think he's a good player overall. Not as valuable this year with the Suns.

1) His best attribute is creating his own shot, and the Suns are much more efficient with Nash creating everyone's shot. Carter never really learned to play off-the-ball with Nash. With Vince creating, the Suns' efficiency drops, but having his creative abilities as an option would raise the efficiency for a lot of other teams. The Magic were MUCH more efficient with him on the court for the past couple years.

2) The Suns style is so different--so fast--it takes some getting used to. I think Vince is naturally more deliberate in his style of play; he struggled adjusting after the slow pace in Orlando. But it took other players time to adjust to the Suns style as well (JRich, for example).

3) He was, is, and always will be underrated defensively. Not a defensive stat whore and he makes some mistakes, but he pretty much always makes his team better defensively. Nothing too aggressive, but he gets in good position and plays smart defense.

[GrantHill]

3) He was, is, and always will be underrated defensively. Not a defensive stat whore and he makes some mistakes, but he pretty much always makes his team better defensively. Nothing too aggressive, but he gets in good position and plays smart defense.

Have you seen a suns game this year when Carter was in the lineup? He was the worst defensive player on our team.

[Wannabe MEP]

Have you seen a suns game this year when Carter was in the lineup? He was the worst defensive player on our team.

I've never seen a variation of defensive adjusted plus-minus that didn't say:

1) His team plays better defense whenever he's on the court, or
2) He's one of the best defensive guards in the league.

Here he's rated behind only Manu and Iggy in terms of best defensive guards: http://82games.com/ilardi2d.htm#table (five year study ending in 2008)

Here I'm not sure exactly where he ranks, but clearly very high for guards (behind Manu, CP3, and Harden, as well as some others that aren't ranked as highly as Vince overall): http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/4-year-ranking (four year current study)

Here, same thing. One year, current study. This suggests his offensive impact fell with the Suns, but not his defensive impact: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ranking11

Here he rates highly as a small forward in an older study (highly enough that the author pulls out his name to comment on him because perception is that he's a poor defender): http://82games.com/rosenbaum3.htm (three year 2005 study)

And then, basketballvalue.com doesn't split offensive and defensive APM, but it shows unadjusted ratings on each side of the ball, and what I've looked at says teams are better defensively with Vince on the court (this year, last year, last year's playoffs). Also, the best defensive unit (with lots of minutes) the Suns had this year had Carter: that was actually the team's best unit overall. The only units that are even close to that unit defensively were terrible on offense.

[DRK]

3) He was, is, and always will be underrated defensively. Not a defensive stat whore and he makes some mistakes, but he pretty much always makes his team better defensively. Nothing too aggressive, but he gets in good position and plays smart defense.

Have you seen a suns game this year when Carter was in the lineup? He was the worst defensive player on our team.

I agree. His defense against the Lakers in the triple over time games was appaling.... and in another game I saw, against the Hornet, he let Willien Grenn shoot like 12 from 13 from the field. I watched him intently, and he was lazy, and lacked the lateral quickness to stop Willie Green.

Pathetic. Worse perimeter defender on the Suns.

[Stix]

He's a lot like this dolphin...

[gino_giode]

On this topic, when is the deadline to cut Vince?

[GrantHill]

June 30

[Revived]

I feel sad for the fans of whatever team signs him.

We only had to suffer for half the season but they would have to suffer for a whole season, maybe more.

[nevetsov]

I feel sad for the fans of whatever team signs him.

Eh, no need to feel sorry for the Shanghai sharks

[Juan Montoya]

Vince Carter gave the game of Basketball much more then he took away from it. Most consider him the best dunker of all time and the best player during the 2000 Olympic Games. He did alot of charity work and seems to be a nice human beeing. The amount and type of hate he gets is appalling.

[rsavaj]

We don't hate him as a human being. Don't be dramatic.

[BurningHeart]

Vince Carter gave the game of Basketball much more then he took away from it. Most consider him the best dunker of all time and the best player during the 2000 Olympic Games. He did alot of charity work and seems to be a nice human beeing. The amount and type of hate he gets is appalling.

We hate him because he could have probably been a Top 20, 30 player of all time if he had any semblance of a heart. We hate him because he's a wasted talent.

[TASTIC]

The fact that he went from a legit Superstar renowned for his dunking and them became a legit 3 point threat and then basically quit...that's what's frustrating. He was well on the way to becoming a complete player and then he packed a sad and quit, simple as that.

Stars don't quit - Nash could have mailed it in after we lost Amare to injury TWICE, but he didn't...