Suns vs Wiz (3/16/13)

[thamadkant]

In my opinion (again)

Dragic is a player just a tad below Kyle Lowry. And Kyle Lowry is not an all-star, but a fringe one. If Ty Lawson isn’t an All-Star out west, then Dragic is much more so NOT an all-star. He is a starting calibre PG, a less frustrating Calderon and entertaining to watch.


Gortat is same tier as a healthy Hawes, good for 10-12 points from the center position, 9-10 rebounds too. He showed some very good shot blocking consistency at the start of the season but faded back to his “norm”. Basically he is a double double big man, adequate starter center. But his defense is inferior to other big men who doesn’t put up double doubles. And offensively he is soft…. Ideal 4th best player on a playoff team.

Scola is passed his prime but a couple of seasons ago he was beasting. Sadly he is just a backup PF now, ideally for a good team looking for a smart, hard working PF off the bench.

Dudley is an ideal coach’s pet “role” player. Very good IQ, good executor of Xs and Os from coach’s playbook. Limited athletically and “star” talent but more than adequate to satisfy coaching plays. His IQ and serviceable traits make him ideal first player off the bench.
Defensively he is capable, but lack of length, lateral speed and mediocre athleticism limits him strictly as a “cerebral” defender, meaning he can read the offense and can put a lot of effort to get to defensive spots. But limitations make his impact 50/50 most of the time.

Wesley Johnson, Markieff Morris, Marcus Morris… have yet to show any consistency (20+ games) of contribution to be more than role players. I was high on Markieff too… but he either needs to beef up to be able to be more effective as a PF.
Wesley Johnson’s athleticism and physical traits make him a potential “above average to good” defender….


No “likely” all-stars… in my opinion…..

[phrazbit]

The tanking question has nothing to do with this conversation, you accused me of ignoring facts in your posts during this convo, what did I ignore?

You spelled out with more detail what this team can do to look better offensively, but that does not answer the question of what you think think their strengths should be, and its still the same things you can say about any struggling team. Yes, ball movement is an awesome thing have, but your chances of being able to run a system based on ball movement and cutting when you have players who are selfish, lazy, and low basketball IQ and we have several (yes, I understand, that is my opinion of those players). IMO, we also do not have a quality distributor. Dragic is good in transition but really struggles in the half court. Is that the fault of coaching? Maybe, but I think after a point in a players career you have to accept them for what they are.

Goran, Gortat, Scola, they are decent players, guys who can do things on a good team, I agree. But if those are the BEST players on a team, then there is a serious lack of talent on the roster.

And I didnt mean for you to go through roster by roster the lotto teams in the league, I was just hoping for a general idea of where you think our talent ranks.

[RunDogGun]

The facts comment was CLEARLY referring to our constant back an forth. I'm sorry you misread that, and somehow applied that to something else. I think if you reread what I wrote you would be able to see that.

I think it's tough to compare our team with other teams that have been in the lotto for more years than us, and not close to the playoffs like we were. Sure they have a few number one picks or top five picks that would make one think they have a better future. Some of those top picks have gone through some injuries, some multiple. Some of those teams have better coaches, or multiple years within the system that coach is running. But those teams are still not doing much.

If you have noticed we have played those selfish players less. And I admitted that we've had lazy play, not sure why that is getting thrown back at me. Overall, we have more unselfish players than not.

Oh well, I get it, you think we suck, with no hope. Cool!

[RunDogGun]

In my opinion (again)

Dragic is a player just a tad below Kyle Lowry. And Kyle Lowry is not an all-star, but a fringe one. If Ty Lawson isn’t an All-Star out west, then Dragic is much more so NOT an all-star. He is a starting calibre PG, a less frustrating Calderon and entertaining to watch.


Gortat is same tier as a healthy Hawes, good for 10-12 points from the center position, 9-10 rebounds too. He showed some very good shot blocking consistency at the start of the season but faded back to his “norm”. Basically he is a double double big man, adequate starter center. But his defense is inferior to other big men who doesn’t put up double doubles. And offensively he is soft…. Ideal 4th best player on a playoff team.

Scola is passed his prime but a couple of seasons ago he was beasting. Sadly he is just a backup PF now, ideally for a good team looking for a smart, hard working PF off the bench.

Dudley is an ideal coach’s pet “role” player. Very good IQ, good executor of Xs and Os from coach’s playbook. Limited athletically and “star” talent but more than adequate to satisfy coaching plays. His IQ and serviceable traits make him ideal first player off the bench.
Defensively he is capable, but lack of length, lateral speed and mediocre athleticism limits him strictly as a “cerebral” defender, meaning he can read the offense and can put a lot of effort to get to defensive spots. But limitations make his impact 50/50 most of the time.

Wesley Johnson, Markieff Morris, Marcus Morris… have yet to show any consistency (20+ games) of contribution to be more than role players. I was high on Markieff too… but he either needs to beef up to be able to be more effective as a PF.
Wesley Johnson’s athleticism and physical traits make him a potential “above average to good” defender….


No “likely” all-stars… in my opinion…..

Not sure how Dragic gets a rating below Lowry, when he is playing better than Lowry.

Scola's stats are almost the same as last season save fg%, all while playing five minutes less per game.

I can accept the rest. Gortat is a bit interesting though. His use was often strange, especially that game where he gets thirteen points in the third, and sees none of the fourth.

I still feel that coaching has had more affect on some of our players.

[phrazbit]

I'm not trying to throw their laziness back at you, I mentioned it because its part of the problem with the roster. I believe that effort is contageous, and I also believe that when you bring in low effort players that also rubs off on teammates. Its a part of the several reasons why I think we stink.

And I dont think we have no hope for the future, if the front office (or whoever replaces them) handles stuff well franchise can turn around quickly, we have picks, our cap situation next summer is not thrilling but it gets better afterwards. But I absolutely think this current team stinks, and it stunk from day one. And, in my opinion, an important part of improving the team is recognizing its many shortcomings.

[RunDogGun]

I totally agree about effort being contagious, it was one of the main reasons I like Lou, and felt that his effort rubbed off on the 2010 team. Another reason I don't credit our coaching staff for that season, but that is another argument.

Also another reason I like Hunter. He demands that the team puts in that effort. Our old coaching staff didn't, and often kept rewarding that bad behavior with more minutes. It's a strange circle. It reminds me of playing in a band in clubs. We would have a better show, the more the crowd got into it, but it's tough for them to get into it, unless we played well.

We have a terrible crowd. Our home games seem more like away games against most playoff teams. Our coaching staff was weak (might still be, the jury is still out), and before Hunter our practices were a joke. So to me, we had a poor environment for players to be in. Then add two questionable characters in Brown and Beasley, and put them into the starting lineup(s), and what message are we sending to the young or new players?

To me, we won't get out of this cycle by firing more GMs, coaches, and so on. The turnover on this team's ridiculous. It's like we continue to try and build a house without putting down the proper foundation. Most of this has nothing to do with the players' talent. We have a poor culture, then get mad when players don't excell in that culture.

Maybe I just see the bigger picture, maybe I've been watching this team for a super long time, or maybe I'm seeing something that isn't there. But this constant turnover isn't helping our players. And it seems like the only players that can do well in our system are those that have been in the league for a long time.

I'm just going to chalk this up as an agree to disagree, and hope you had a good St Patty's Day.

[phrazbit]

I absolutely hated the Beasley signing, even letting him out of his warmups sends a bad message, but that was a front office mistake, a horrible evaluation of talent and personality and dumb contract to-boot.

I know we have beaten the GM question into the ground in previous threads, we disagree, and we wont find common ground there until the franchise moves farther one way or the other. There is a chance I could be talked into letting Lon Babby stick around, at least he SAYS things that I agree with and while we have not hit a home run via trade he hasnt royally screwed up anything (except the Brooks trade). But Lance Blanks is just horrible. Our talent evaluation under him has been stomach churning.

As for the crowd's silence and many empty seats. Its not only a bad team but a dull one, which lacks even the excitement of young player to have high hopes for... which goes full circle to my distaste of the current regime.

But agree to disagree, hope you had a good St Pat's too.

[RunDogGun]

The home crowd has been terrible for years. The empty seats are equal to the fans that sit on their hands all game.

I'm not saying the GMs are great, or even good, just the turnover sucks. I also dislike the hire from within crap.

I never thought we'd sign Beasley, or even trade for him, which a few wanted us to here last year. I just never thought he had the character that this team usually grabs. But besides the signing, we still played him too often early, and starting was silly, mainly when the stats showed that everyone he played with was worse with him on the court.

Didn't get to do much tonight but take care of my one month old. I didn't even get to have a Guinness.

[Jarlaxle0204]

Didn't get to do much tonight but take care of my one month old. I didn't even get to have a Guinness.

Welcome to fatherhood. lol

[RunDogGun]

Didn't get to do much tonight but take care of my one month old. I didn't even get to have a Guinness.

Welcome to fatherhood. lol

Thanks, but we already have a two year old as well. He is just as challenging, but going through his trying twos, is the hardest so far.