PJ Tucker vs. Archie Goodwin

[Revived]

>implying this team is good enough to be an 8th seed
>implying this team will be 5 games over .500 in December
>implying Gerald Green and Miles Plumlee will even be able to contribute anything worthwhile to the team
>implying the Morris brothers will be able to produce more than their inconsistent play
>implying Frye will be in shape to contribute
>implying PJ Tucker will be more than a hustle player
>implying this team won't get blown out every other night
>implying Dragic will continue to improve (he's too old, man)

I think you are overrating the Suns, man. Playoffs aren't even a remote possibility.

Are you being sarcastic?

Obviously. Seeing how all those implications have come true thus far.

as for the other thread which Kerrsed locked as I hit respond...what does a single man do with his hand("girlfriend")? And petroleum engineering-nice! I assume your actual degree is in chemical engineering?

Haha nice, I didn't think of the hand one. That's a good one.

And no my degree is actually in petroleum engineering. I could have done chemical and still became one but that stuff isn't my thing. I might pursue higher education in relation to Geology in the future because I know they travel more and I would love that.

[Revived]

I walk away for a bit, and it gets locked? Oh well, it just seems easier to put him back on the ignore list. I took him off after he pm'd me, thinking he may be back on the right dosage. But lately.....

Oh well it was fun watching the back and forth.

Mooch you need to post more often.

Your now back on my ignore list as well bud!

[Qwigglez]

Nobody saw the 09/10 team making the Conference Finals... but low and behold, that did just that, and were a lucky rebound away from a likely championship.

Nope, I did...

[Ring_Wanted]

My two cents on this Archie vs Tucker.

One of the things I am loving so far from Horny (among so many) is that Archie is playing almost on every game, even if it is just a few minutes. It shows the team wants to develop have plans for him, tho he may not be ready right now (which in my opinion is the case, as he is too raw and nervous, but we have seen flashes and the potential is clearly there).

Since Archie vs Tucker inherently brings the issue of winning now vs future, I'll also say that I think the way things are being carried so far is exactly what you need to do when you have the second youngest player in the NBA (right? Also, check out that freak of Antetokounmpo) on a roster that is surprising everybody and contending for the playoffs after twenty something games.

I think it will (should) end up being Archie vs Green in terms of minutes. No matter how you look at it, Tucker is playing too well to cut down his time and gives us something in shorter supply than Green's shooting, given Marcus' emergence.

[thamadkant]

By the time Archie is ready to start... Tucker, Green and Dragic would be declined and playing off the bench.
I don't think he should even be compared to them anymore... I think Goodwin if he must play minutes doesn't have to be to the detriment of Tucker, Green and Dragic anyways....

But at the end of the day, Hornacek has plans for Archie and he and McD seems to be genuinely high on Archie.

[Ring_Wanted]

Being ready to start. I don't know how much will it take him, but I hope it's way before Dragic and Tucker are past their peaks.

Dragic is a late bloomer and PJ has played basically just one NBA season. I don't doubt we'll see meaningful contributions from Archie during the next two-three seasons.

[Phystic]

Third, and lastly, us fighting for the 8th seed really doesn't nothing for us. Regardless of how good this team IS or how good some people think we are, we are not good enough to make a deep playoff run and certainly not good enough to win a championship.

>implying this team is good enough to be an 8th seed
>implying this team will be 5 games over .500 in December
>implying Gerald Green and Miles Plumlee will even be able to contribute anything worthwhile to the team
>implying the Morris brothers will be able to produce more than their inconsistent play
>implying Frye will be in shape to contribute
>implying PJ Tucker will be more than a hustle player
>implying this team won't get blown out every other night
>implying Dragic will continue to improve (he's too old, man)

I think you are overrating the Suns, man. Playoffs aren't even a remote possibility.

Guess I missed the green font?

[Phystic]

......... we are not good enough to make a deep playoff run and certainly not good enough to win a championship.

...........

I think you are overrating the Suns, man. Playoffs aren't even a remote possibility.

make that comment around these guys, ya peewees

You're right, because it happened once 40 years ago means it'll totally happen again. If you want to put the chances of us winning a championship up against the chances of us getting a high draft pick, I'll take the draft chance every time. This squad has talent and definitely works hard. But we can not compete with Thunder, Spurs, Heat, Pacers(potentially a couple more teams in here) in a 7 game series.

[Phystic]

Fixed!

Second. No way on God's green is this team ever going to be a bottom four team. Wish all you want but Santa isn't putting a top three draft pick under the XMAS tree for you this year.

I'm trying to find where I say we will be a bottom four team? I said we need to do what we can to get them. First off, it's a lottery for a reason. Routinely teams in the 5-8 range move up.

Your implication was clear. You wanted to see the Suns "stop winning" and land a potential top 3 pick (Wiggin/Parker/Randall). Even if the Suns went after your unholy desires and starting losing there is no possible way they would be worse than the cellar dwellers in the Leastern conference. They have a death grip on the 2014 lottery and will not be letting go anytime soon. Which means being in the 5-8 range is fricking impossible.

Third, and lastly, us fighting for the 8th seed really doesn't nothing for us. Regardless of how good this team IS or how good some people think we are, we are not good enough to make a deep playoff run and certainly not good enough to win a championship.

Take a moment and think about about what an eighth seed does for us:

1) Gives our already young team playoff experience. Trust me, you don't win a championship without playoff experience.
2) Gives our team a taste of the playoffs and makes our team even hungrier next year.
3) Promotes a winning culture.
4) Let's your veteran players know you are committed to winning
5) Attracts big name free agents who want to help make the push from a playoff team to championship-level team.
6) A long shot chance that our team goes on a hot streak during the playoffs (yes it has happened before) and competes for the championship
7) Winning makes your players more valuable as trade assets

-or-

we can go with your poor assumption that the eight seed does nothing for us and go after

1) a roll-of-the-dice that a 19-year-old player might help you get into the playoffs in three-or-four years.

For those of you with Lottery Fever repeat after me! The tank is DEAD!

My implication was clear? Well you misread it. I never said a bottom 4 team, I said a high draft pick. Which does mean we would need to lose and have luck in the lottery. I'm well aware of that.


1. Agreed. But that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be this year.
2. Hungrier? This is a vague idea that really shouldn't be talked about. Because nobody outside of that locker room knows what the players feel. You could just as easily say that players getting crushed in the playoffs would kill their spirits, or piss them off and make them unhappy to remain on the team. All just total random shots into their mindsets.
3. Promotes a winning culture is an interesting idea. But fits into both 1 and 2.
4. What veteran players exactly? Dragic? He is already signed and could potentially be out the door if a good offer comes in. Frye? He is born and raised here and wants to stay here, us missing the playoffs wouldn't change that. What other "veterans" do we have exactly?
5. Yes us making the 8th seed and losing to the Thunder would totally bring in big name free agent. A potential superstar rookie plus our young core isn't nearly as enticing as a 1st round exit. Deron Williams wanted to go to NJ despite them winning 12 games the year before he went there. Knicks won 29 games the year before Melo went there. Everyone knows the Clippers history before Chris Paul. I realize those were "trades" but those players demanded to be sent there. There are other examples but I'm too lazy to look into anything further back. But it doesn't matter, my main point is an 8th seed finish is not going to be a selling point to a big free agent, or at least not any more than a big time rookie coming in.
6. Seriously? It's nearly impossible for this to happen in the NBA due to the length of a series. NFL yes( IE Cardinals Super Bowl run) but in a 7 game series it's so unlikely for a team to get "hot" and win 3-4 7 game series against better teams.
7. No idea what logic is being used here. Since when does a team winning make assets more desirable? STATS make them desirable. Why was everyone trying to get Bledsoe since he's been in the league despite playing on the Clippers? If you want to say their attitude/mind set makes them more desirable then that's a fair point but a teams success not so much(depending on the playing style).

Poor assumption? Yup because everyone knows high draft picks(ie sought after rookies) never work out. Sure they aren't a guarantee there are a good number of cases of top picks not working out(Greg Oden, Michael Beasley, Andre Bargnani,Kwame Brown,Michael Olowokandi) but then there are players that completely turn around orginzations(Lebron, Durant, Melo, Rose, Irving, Paul, Howard). I'd rather take a chance on the top 5-7 in this draft being/becoming a difference making player for us than an 8th seed and hoping for a miracle run.

I have no issues with that being your belief but just because some disagrees with your opinion doesn't make theirs any less valid.

[Phystic]

Nobody saw the 09/10 team making the Conference Finals... but low and behold, that did just that, and were a lucky rebound away from a likely championship.

Wait a LIKELY championship? How so? We still would of needed to finish off the Lakers. And then go up against a Boston Celtic team that still had plenty left in the tank. Not sure how that is so likely. And comparing that Suns team to this one is a bit of a stretch.

[grumpysaddle]

Nobody saw the 09/10 team making the Conference Finals... but low and behold, that did just that, and were a lucky rebound away from a likely championship.

Wait a LIKELY championship? How so? We still would of needed to finish off the Lakers. And then go up against a Boston Celtic team that still had plenty left in the tank. Not sure how that is so likely. And comparing that Suns team to this one is a bit of a stretch.

It's widely agreed, here and other places, that had the Suns not gotten unlucky with that Kobe airball into Artest's hands, they would have been the favorites to win the championship that year. They were outplaying everyone. With two chances to shut down the Lakers, I'd have given them odds for heavy favorites. The Celtics were not what they were the year before, and if I recall correctly the Suns handled them fairly easily in the regular season match-ups that year. I know from being on this board and others, that the Suns would have been the heavy favorite in a Boston/Phoenix finals.

I also don't understand how comparing this team to the 09/10 team is a bit of a stretch... No one expected that team to do much, and they made it to the Conference Finals. No one thought they'd make it past the first round, if they even made the playoffs. No one expected this team to win like they have been. Both teams have excelled through off-the-charts chemistry. Both teams had a so-called "lack of talent", according to the 'experts'. IMO, there's a lot of similarities (the biggest difference being average age of players).

[RunDogGun]

I'm not sure if we were the favorites, if we had beaten LAL. We really only killed Boston, when both Garnett and Pierce were out that season.

But we should have beaten LAL. We had too many guys blow it in those first two games. Stat only grabbing three rebounds in that first game was a joke. Game five was closer than it needed to be when we missed nine free throws, two from each Nash, Stat, and JRich. It's an odd occurrence when Nash misses even one free throw, let alone two.

Oh well, I'm not sure what this has to do with Archie and/or Tucker, but it's fun to pull off five year old scabs.

[Ring_Wanted]

The feeling this year is certainly similar to 2010, at least to me. The 2010 team had less new faces and its core already had tasted success, but there are some paralelisms. There are new role players who work hard and are making the most out of their chance, likable vets and coach with a mostly perfect match between system and the blend of players we have and a bench mob. Right now we have a much better assets portfolio and a much more cap flexibility.

[Phystic]

Nobody saw the 09/10 team making the Conference Finals... but low and behold, that did just that, and were a lucky rebound away from a likely championship.

Wait a LIKELY championship? How so? We still would of needed to finish off the Lakers. And then go up against a Boston Celtic team that still had plenty left in the tank. Not sure how that is so likely. And comparing that Suns team to this one is a bit of a stretch.

It's widely agreed, here and other places, that had the Suns not gotten unlucky with that Kobe airball into Artest's hands, they would have been the favorites to win the championship that year. They were outplaying everyone. With two chances to shut down the Lakers, I'd have given them odds for heavy favorites. The Celtics were not what they were the year before, and if I recall correctly the Suns handled them fairly easily in the regular season match-ups that year. I know from being on this board and others, that the Suns would have been the heavy favorite in a Boston/Phoenix finals.

I also don't understand how comparing this team to the 09/10 team is a bit of a stretch... No one expected that team to do much, and they made it to the Conference Finals. No one thought they'd make it past the first round, if they even made the playoffs. No one expected this team to win like they have been. Both teams have excelled through off-the-charts chemistry. Both teams had a so-called "lack of talent", according to the 'experts'. IMO, there's a lot of similarities (the biggest difference being average age of players).

Well, I see absolutely no proof or solid reasoning to think we would be the favorites had we got that rebound. If I remember correctly, the series was tied 2-2 then Artest stole that game due to our incompetence. Making it 3-2 Lakers lead, we then got dominated on our HOME COURT in game SIX to lose the series. If we were the better team we would of AT LEAST forced a game seven back in LA. But we didn't. Because we were playing over our heads. Then Boston who, despite not being the team they were the year before, was still a very very good/dangerous team. Sure we beat them both times in the regular season. First game was at the beginning of the season and the second they were without Pierce AND Garnett. And we all know what happens in the regular season completely translates into playoff victories, right?

Completely different teams! That's why. We had players that had already gone to that level, knew how to play with each other. We had a 2 time MVP. We had a pereniall all-star/all-nba PF/C(who was also a better scorer than anyone currently on our roster). We had a consistently dominant 6th man(LB), we had VETERAN wing players who could explode offensively(Jrich) or do anything you ask of him(Hill). If you want to compaire a 25 game stint of Plumlee, Tucker and the Morri to those players than go ahead. But the two teams are very different despite your "fact" that neither were considered capable of making the playoffs(that 2010 was definitely in the hunt for the playoffs. We were considered a lock for the playoffs coming in and the only reason expectations were stunted was because of Amare's health. Are you getting the 2010 team confused with the 2006 team?

Either way like RDG said, this really has nothing to do with the Goodwin vs Tucker topic. So, I won't continue with this and derail this thread any further.


Tucker should start if we want to keep winning, with Goodwin getting more PT as the season progresses. He is just too young and raw at the moment to get serious PT unless we simply don't care about wins.

[grumpysaddle]

Ring_Wanted put down my feelings regarding the similarities between this team and 09/10s team. And yeah, back to the topic at hand...

[BurningHeart]

The likeliest championship was 2007. *sigh*

[LV-Suns]

Does Goodwins game starting reminiscing anyone of our good old DJ Strawberry? Hopefully he pans out better than he did.

[thamadkant]

Did DJ Strawberry get into the paint with ease?

With Goodwin, let's say the suns were really bad and the rookies were allowed to do what ever they wanted to and play heavy minutes...
Goodwin as combo PG/SG would be putting up 15 points 5 assists on 40% FG... And he would be shooting free throws a lot.... Basically Goodwin would be relatively productive, show plenty of highlights but would be very inefficient. That's just my estimation... Of course suns would lose many many games and he'd average 3.5 TOs.


DJ Strawberry wasn't as talented as Goodwin.... Nor as athletic.... Goodwin is one of the fastest players in the league. Barbosa-esque.

[phrazbit]

I think you're overestimating his production. Right now he is averaging 1 assist for every three turnovers, its hard to picture him flipping that script entirely with an increase in minutes. I also think his shooting percentages would decline sharply if he were out there for 30 minutes and allowed to gun it at will. With starters minutes I think he'd probably shoot between 35-40% and might lead the league in turnovers.

And I am not trying to rip him, I like Goodwin and think he has a lot of potential. But he is really really raw right now.

One more note. I dont think he is or will be a PG. He was a terrible passer in college, early on here its more of the same. I hope he works on his outside shooting and his finishing around the rim... and his D. IMO the best bet for his future as a pro is as a slasher/3 and D wing player.