Trade up?

Zelaznyrules · Post #21 » by **Zelaznyrules** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:53 am

cosmofizzo wrote:
SunsFanSSOL wrote:I'm not high on Gordon. Some people see Blake Griffin 2.0 but I see Derrick Williams with less of a jumper.

I see Shawn Marion without the shooting ability. Or a softer Dennis Rodman.

I see Shawn Marion without the shooting ability and minus the incredible second jump but with slightly better handles. Or a kinder, saner Dennis Rodman. Any way you cut it, he's a project. If he's there I'd give serious consideration to taking him and then I'd give him a year off to work with a private shooting coach.

Notanoob · Post #22 » by **Notanoob** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:56 am

He's tough to make direct comparisons to. He can defend both forward positions at an NBA level. In fact, he's got the perfect body to check LeBron. He's got insane hops which allows him to be very effective around the rim, and he's also an excellent passer. But he's just so absurdly bad at shooting, and he isn't a good ball handler. Usually you expect guys to improve, but when you're shooting under 50% from the line, you don't become "good" at shooting. I think that at 8 he's good value, just don't ask him to score outside of cleaning up missed shots or ally-oops.

NaturalBuns · Post #23 » by **NaturalBuns** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:28 am

I'm all for drafting gordon he is a solid prospect.
This system fits his game

Post #24 » by **bwgood77** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:07 am

I'm an AZ fan and I'm not that high on Gordon. I love most of his game and instincts, but he can't shoot and is horrible at free throws. He would strictly be a glue guy. You'd have to surround him with a bunch of outside shooters and/or good scorers on the inside.

I think of AZ's 5 starters to start the season he was probably the most expendable to the team. I even like RHJ better as a long term player.

He is a high energy guy with good passing instincts, but is not a go to player offensively at all. I"d love him with like the 17th pick, but I wouldn't want to trade our pick and Washington's pick to move up and get him. He's not worth that much.

Brandon Ashley is probably a better comp to Marion.

DirtyDez · Post #25 » by **DirtyDez** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:26 am

Ashley can't touch Marion/Gordon's athleticism ^^

Aaron Gordon is 18 years old and he's a freak of nature. His attitude/motor will allow him to reach his ceiling. The question is what his ceiling is...

As raw as Gordon is he's still more advanced than Marion at the same age and Shawn is a multiple all-star with borderline HOF numbers... I don't think it's a lock that Gordon declares but he's not dropping past #10 if he does. Teams will fall in love with his personality and work-ethic which is similar to Oladipo's.

Frank Lee · Post #26 » by **Frank Lee** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:03 pm

Don't we already have a Young great athlete who can't shoot ???

Draft fever is setting in, and with 3 picks, its going to be quite contagious. 8-)

I would not be surprised at all if we keep all of our picks. I look for the first two selections to be very athletic bpa's and the last one to be a stash-able euro. Cheap rookie deals will allow maximum cap space for Free Agency. We are set up nicely with role players and a few would be stars. We add 2 more 1st timers and we will have more than half this roster on rookie deals.

NotTraxxe · Post #27 » by **NotTraxxe** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:26 pm

I had a thought after the Piston's trade talk here.

Taking a look at the last 12 years in 2 instances would I want the #8 pick over the #14/#17/#29. Versus 6 times where I'd prefer the group picks. The number 29th pick is a relative graveyard. If we can trade that, the #14, and our second round pick then I'd do it. Leaving us with #8 and #17.

But the bulk picks pans out better than not in recent history: Josh Smith, Danny Granger, Roy Hibbert, Al Thornton, Jrue Holiday

Versus #8 where the standouts are: Rudy Gay, Jamal Crawford, and (maybe) Terrence Ross.

Even then in 2012 I might take the #14/#17/#29 combo instead.

Jamal Crawford

Josh Howard

Josh Smith

Danny Granger

Rudy Gay

Al Thornton

Roy Hibbert

Jrue Holiday

I think what we learn here is if you can trade all the picks for a package with a star. You do it.

nevetsov · Post #28 » by **nevetsov** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:40 am

Agreed, at this juncture we need quality over quantity. The higher up you pick, the more options you have.

Zelaznyrules · Post #29 » by **Zelaznyrules** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:05 pm

nevetsov wrote:Agreed, at this juncture we need quality over quantity. The higher up you pick, the more options you have.

When you consider that more often than not the draft is more of a gamble than a science, I'd rather have 3 chances to hit that jackpot than 1 pick with slightly higher payoff odds. In almost every draft there are 1 to 4 players that are considered sure things and even some of them fail. Once you drop out of those "safe" spots though, it's just a case of doing your due diligence and crossing your fingers. Since there's no way we're going to move into one of the top spots (barring incredible lottery luck) I see no reason to even consider tanking.

LukasBMW · Post #30 » by **LukasBMW** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:59 am

Zelaznyrules wrote:
nevetsov wrote:Agreed, at this juncture we need quality over quantity. The higher up you pick, the more options you have.

When you consider that more often than not the draft is more of a gamble than a science, I'd rather have 3 chances to hit that jackpot than 1 pick with slightly higher payoff odds. In almost every draft there are 1 to 4 players that are considered sure things and even some of them fail. Once you drop out of those "safe" spots though, it's just a case of doing your due diligence and crossing your fingers. Since there's no way we're going to move into one of the top spots (barring incredible lottery luck) I see no reason to even consider tanking.

This is very true. Of the prize possessions (Wiggins, Parker, Randle, Embiid, Exum) odds are 2 or 3 will flop.

Plus with Kansas and Duke getting knocked, it is possible 2 or 3 of the above guys stay for another year.

Wouldn't it be funny if Parker, Wiggins, and maybe even Embiid stay in school? All that taking for nothing (Sorry Philly, Orlando, and LAL!) If that happens, I bet Randle goes #1.

nevetsov · Post #31 » by **nevetsov** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:22 am

It's more than that though - rooks will only be as good as their playing time allows. We already had 2 this year that couldn't get consistent PT. I cannot see how adding another 3 will help that. No way we can give PT to all of them. Without PT, rooks become busts.

Better to get one high potential guy and give him PT, than to get 3 chances and let them all rot on the bench IMO.

LukasBMW · Post #32 » by **LukasBMW** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:38 am

Plus we don't need any more guards. We need one solid PF or C just in case Len turns out to be a bust and Plumlee stops improving

NaturalBuns · Post #33 » by **NaturalBuns** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:09 am

nevetsov wrote:It's more than that though - rooks will only be as good as their playing time allows. We already had 2 this year that couldn't get consistent PT. I cannot see how adding another 3 will help that. No way we can give PT to all of them. Without PT, rooks become busts.

Better to get one high potential guy and give him PT, than to get 3 chances and let them all rot on the bench IMO.

Basically this.
But if we do cash In All the picks for 1 pick have to be 100% safe pick...
I'd rather package for a star. Maybe even lance Stephenson we have been playing small
Ball lately

Post #34 » by **bwgood77** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:10 am

I still don't think it's worth trading up because there are no big men that will be taken 8-12 that are THAT much better than you can get at 14 and 17.

Now if we make the playoffs and have 17 and 21 or something like that, then I'd possibly be more inclined to move up depending on how far we could move up and who we could get. It will depend on who comes out too. If some of the top guys go back to school I don't think moving up will be quite as valuable. I don't think with those two picks we could move up much higher than like 13 or so anyway.

Post #35 » by **bwgood77** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:15 am

NaturalBuns wrote:
nevetsov wrote:It's more than that though - rooks will only be as good as their playing time allows. We already had 2 this year that couldn't get consistent PT. I cannot see how adding another 3 will help that. No way we can give PT to all of them. Without PT, rooks become busts.

Better to get one high potential guy and give him PT, than to get 3 chances and let them all rot on the bench IMO.

Basically this.
But if we do cash In All the picks for 1 pick have to be 100% safe pick...
I'd rather package for a star. Maybe even lance Stephenson we have been playing small
Ball lately

Guys will develop in practice and/or the d league. With the d league, more and more teams are going to draft guys with potential and put them in the d league for awhile. Like OKC did with Grant Jerrett. Their rookies didn't get much playing time either. Lamb barely played last year and Adams barely played this year, but they have other guys developing. We could draft a guy to develop oversees too like Chicago did with Mirotic.

We can't really expect to get a star at the 10-12 range. You could, but it's kind of a crapshoot there and the chances are not THAT much better than guys 13-20. It's still a crapshoot, but you have two guys, you have a better chance than getting one guy that was drafted a little bit higher.

But of course it depends on how much McD values certain guys. If there is ONE guy he is targeting, and moving up helps him get that guy, I trust him, but to do it just for the sake of hoping to get a better guy a few spots higher isn't worth it.

We have to see how things play out with the lottery, where our draft picks are, who declares for the draft, etc.

GetYourPHX · Post #36 » by **GetYourPHX** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:28 pm

bwgood77 wrote:I still don't think it's worth trading up because there are no big men that will be taken 8-12 that are THAT much better than you can get at 14 and 17.

Hmmmmm, what big men do you think will still be available at 14 and 17?

I'm pretty sure Capela, Nurkic, and Cauley-Stein will all be gone by then.

Post #37 » by **bwgood77** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:12 pm

GetYourPHX wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:I still don't think it's worth trading up because there are no big men that will be taken 8-12 that are THAT much better than you can get at 14 and 17.

Hmmmmm, what big men do you think will still be available at 14 and 17?

I'm pretty sure Capela, Nurkic, and Cauley-Stein will all be gone by then.

Are you talking center? Probably none, but I don't know if any of those guys are traditional centers anyway. Montrezl Harrell and Adreain Payne should be available and I think at least one of the guys you mention will be there at 14. Dario Saric might as well.

There should be a bunch of SF's available too.

gaspar · Post #38 » by **gaspar** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:45 pm

cosmofizzo wrote:
SunsFanSSOL wrote:I'm not high on Gordon. Some people see Blake Griffin 2.0 but I see Derrick Williams with less of a jumper.

I see Shawn Marion without the shooting ability. Or a softer Dennis Rodman.

AK47

GetYourPHX · Post #39 » by **GetYourPHX** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:42 pm

bwgood77 wrote:Are you talking center? Probably none, but I don't know if any of those guys are traditional centers anyway. Montrezl Harrell and Adreain Payne should be available and I think at least one of the guys you mention will be there at 14. Dario Saric might as well.
There should be a bunch of SF's available too.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Harrell or Payne for the Suns. Harrell projects to be a Faried type player, and I don't think there's room for 4's who can't shoot on this Suns team. Payne is going to be 24 by the time next season starts, and I think his play this season might be a little bit inflated by the Shabazz effect of being a literal man amongst boys.

I like Payne's game but I wouldn't hesitate giving up that our first two picks(Payne and a SF) to grab one of the centers I mentioned.

Post #40 » by **bwgood77** » Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:29 am

GetYourPHX wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:Are you talking center? Probably none, but I don't know if any of those guys are traditional centers anyway. Montrezl Harrell and Adreain Payne should be available and I think at least one of the guys you mention will be there at 14. Dario Saric might as well.
There should be a bunch of SF's available too.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Harrell or Payne for the Suns. Harrell projects to be a Faried type player, and I don't think there's room for 4's who can't shoot on this Suns team. Payne is going to be 24 by the time next season starts, and I think his play this season might be a little bit inflated by the Shabazz effect of being a literal man amongst boys.

I like Payne's game but I wouldn't hesitate giving up that our first two picks(Payne and a SF) to grab one of the centers I mentioned.

Yeah, I feel kind of the same as you do about Harrell. I like Payne, but if we keep Frye along with the twins, he is kind of superfluous (though he could possibly move into a backup role if Kieff becomes a starter and we move on from Frye). I'm guessing Frye could possibly stick around for less in a backup role too (if Kieff starts). Then again, it's possible we need Frye or the twins involved if we try and make a trade for Love.

I think the 3 is our biggest need though, so I don't know that I'd trade two picks for one to move up for another raw center. We may need to find a defensive center in free agency.