Kieff #15 in RPM

[lilfishi22]

Maybe it's just my eyes but Kieff probably puts up some of the quietest points on the board for any PF in the league. Other than that Cavs game where he was totally in the zone and a couple of big 3's from other games sprinkled in, I don't really notice his contribution.

There just doesn't seem to have many games where he's been fed the ball consistently and carried the team. He doesn't really jump out defensively and offensively, a lot of his points are from jumpers. Not saying he's not a decent player, he just doesn't seem to impact the game much visually when he's on.

[phrazbit]

Collision started zero games last year, he was a sub himself, not someone who had crappy subs for him. Maybe he was a bad example?

Semantics. The point is Collison looked incredible compared to the other guys playing his position on the roster, and as a result RMP showed him as being one of the best players in the entire league. Its a stat based almost entirely on how dude's team preforms when he is on and off the court, which makes it virtually worthless IMO for comparing across rosters. Its a great tool for evaluating dudes across their own roster, but not for much else.

[MrMiyagi]

Collision started zero games last year, he was a sub himself, not someone who had crappy subs for him. Maybe he was a bad example?

Semantics. The point is Collison looked incredible compared to the other guys playing his position on the roster, and as a result RMP showed him as being one of the best players in the entire league. Its a stat based almost entirely on how dude's team preforms when he is on and off the court, which makes it virtually worthless IMO for comparing across rosters. Its a great tool for evaluating dudes across their own roster, but not for much else.

So would you consider Blake Griffin to be overrated by this stat too because he's got Spencer Hawes or Glen Davis coming in for him? Or Chris Paul for having Jordan Farmar coming in for him?

This is just me trying to investigate other "traditional" stats, but is it really that hard to say that Kieff isn't that far off from Blake?

Blake's FG% is 49.6%, 3pt% is 42.1% (on .5 attempts per game, though), 2pt% is 49.8% and FT% is 72.2%.
Kieff's is 49.2%, 33.3% (on 2.5 attempts), 53% and 80%.

Their rebounding numbers this season is actually closer than you might expect, but I'll give rebounding to Blake because of past production and Blake is a really good passer. Yeah, Kieff doesn't do as much as Blake, but we don't need him to do that much. And when you take into account contracts, I really like Kieff.

[RunDogGun]

Collision started zero games last year, he was a sub himself, not someone who had crappy subs for him. Maybe he was a bad example?

Semantics. The point is Collison looked incredible compared to the other guys playing his position on the roster, and as a result RMP showed him as being one of the best players in the entire league. Its a stat based almost entirely on how dude's team preforms when he is on and off the court, which makes it virtually worthless IMO for comparing across rosters. Its a great tool for evaluating dudes across their own roster, but not for much else.

I don't think anyone was using to rate players against each other per se. But evaluating players within a system is important, no? The right guy in the right system can appear to overachieve, while really they could just be maximized. As Los pointed out, the off/def differential shows that we are a better team with Markieff on the court, and Griffin is slightly less.

One thing we both know though, the refs give a lot more to Griffin than Markieff, and that doesn't show up it stats either. So while Griffin has what appears the better ability, maybe he is allowed to do more by the league because he is a star, where other players who are not, don't.

So "useless stat" or not is also semantics. It could be quite useful to the right person evaluating, just like Collison appearing to be one of the best players at doing his job( spot minutes being the first big off the bench on one of the best teams in the league, well at least last season. ).

[phrazbit]

Collision started zero games last year, he was a sub himself, not someone who had crappy subs for him. Maybe he was a bad example?

Semantics. The point is Collison looked incredible compared to the other guys playing his position on the roster, and as a result RMP showed him as being one of the best players in the entire league. Its a stat based almost entirely on how dude's team preforms when he is on and off the court, which makes it virtually worthless IMO for comparing across rosters. Its a great tool for evaluating dudes across their own roster, but not for much else.

I don't think anyone was using to rate players against each other per se. But evaluating players within a system is important, no? The right guy in the right system can appear to overachieve, while really they could just be maximized. As Los pointed out, the off/def differential shows that we are a better team with Markieff on the court, and Griffin is slightly less.
...

So "useless stat" or not is also semantics. It could be quite useful to the right person evaluating, just like Collison appearing to be one of the best players at doing his job( spot minutes being the first big off the bench on one of the best teams in the league, well at least last season. ).

As I said in my post, its GREAT for comparing guys within their own roster. It shows, accurately in my opinion, that Markieff has been probably the most important factor to the Suns success so far. I don't think he is our best player, but given how deep we are at guard and how thin we are up front, Markieff is probably our most important.

One thing we both know though, the refs give a lot more to Griffin than Markieff, and that doesn't show up it stats either. So while Griffin has what appears the better ability, maybe he is allowed to do more by the league because he is a star, where other players who are not, don't.

Markieff is primarily a jump shooter, while Blake is one of the most physical guys in the league, especially when attacking the basket, the refs give him more fouls because he earns a lot more fouls.

So would you consider Blake Griffin to be overrated by this stat too because he's got Spencer Hawes or Glen Davis coming in for him? Or Chris Paul for having Jordan Farmar coming in for him?

This is just me trying to investigate other "traditional" stats, but is it really that hard to say that Kieff isn't that far off from Blake?

Blake's FG% is 49.6%, 3pt% is 42.1% (on .5 attempts per game, though), 2pt% is 49.8% and FT% is 72.2%.
Kieff's is 49.2%, 33.3% (on 2.5 attempts), 53% and 80%.

Their rebounding numbers this season is actually closer than you might expect, but I'll give rebounding to Blake because of past production and Blake is a really good passer. Yeah, Kieff doesn't do as much as Blake, but we don't need him to do that much. And when you take into account contracts, I really like Kieff.

Spencer Hawes and Glen Davis are better reserve options than what the Suns have, which would hurt Griffin's rating, not help it. And its beside the point, I'm not saying the stat means Griffin or Markieff are underrated or overrated, all the stat is showing is one player compared to the backups on his own roster. Its useful for a team when evaluating their own talent, but its useless if you're trying to use it to compare players on different rosters.

As for an actual comparison between Blake and Kieff, I don't really see how anyone can think its close. Kieff is not a bad player, he is a solid starter who has nights when, offensively, he is very good, but he is really inconsistent a below average rebounder, a poor passer and a poor defender. Griffin on the other hand, despite having the worst rebounding year of his career, is still a superior rebounder, one of the best passing bigs in the NBA and an absolute monster offensively that forces mismatches and foul trouble for the opposition on a nightly basis. I think one would have to be an outrageous homer to think Kieff is even close to Griffin's level.

[MrMiyagi]

Hawes and Davis are better options than Marcus or Plumlee (can't say Wright yet because of sample size)or even one of our guards checking in for Kieff? Have you seen their numbers this year? Have you seen them play this year? The Clippers are almost D'Antoni era Suns right now. Their bench is Jamaal Crawford.

[phrazbit]

Hawes and Davis are better options than Marcus or Plumlee (can't say Wright yet because of sample size)or even one of our guards checking in for Kieff? Have you seen their numbers this year? Have you seen them play this year? The Clippers are almost D'Antoni era Suns right now. Their bench is Jamaal Crawford.

For much of the year Tolliver was Kieff's backup and he is rubbish. Hawes and Davis are not stars... or even good, but for the sake of this statistic you're comparing them to Tolliver, Plumlee and a bunch of guys who should not be playing PF or C... but do because of our roster situation.

And I don't even know why I am bothering with that end of the argument... because its pointless. I don't care what the Clippers bench is, I don't care what the Suns is. The fact is RPM is a stat weighted entirely on one player against his own roster. Its completely useless for comparison across leagues.

If you're having trouble believing that then remember what I brought up earlier, this stat showed Nick Colison as being a top 10 player in the entire league last season, which obviously is absurd, but when you look at the stats of the alternatives for OKC last year all of the sudden you see why this stat is beyond flawed for comparison across rosters.

And Colison is not an isolated case, you can look up and down the names across every position and find multiple guys who are rated highly entirely because other guys on their team are terrible.

[MrMiyagi]

Hawes and Davis are better options than Marcus or Plumlee (can't say Wright yet because of sample size)or even one of our guards checking in for Kieff? Have you seen their numbers this year? Have you seen them play this year? The Clippers are almost D'Antoni era Suns right now. Their bench is Jamaal Crawford.

For much of the year Tolliver was Kieff's backup and he is rubbish. Hawes and Davis are not stars... or even good, but for the sake of this statistic you're comparing them to Tolliver, Plumlee and a bunch of guys who should not be playing PF or C... but do because of our roster situation.

And I don't even know why I am bothering with that end of the argument... because its pointless. I don't care what the Clippers bench is, I don't care what the Suns is. The fact is RPM is a stat weighted entirely on one player against his own roster. Its completely useless for comparison across leagues.

If you're having trouble believing that then remember what I brought up earlier, this stat showed Nick Colison as being a top 10 player in the entire league last season, which obviously is absurd, but when you look at the stats of the alternatives for OKC last year all of the sudden you see why this stat is beyond flawed for comparison across rosters.

And Colison is not an isolated case, you can look up and down the names across every position and find multiple guys who are rated highly entirely because other guys on their team are terrible.

Tolliver played a whopping 7 games with more than 12 minutes for us. TJ has had 5 such games. You really going to tell me Tolliver was Kieff's backup?

For sake of statistics, we're comparing Marcus, Plumlee and even Len to Hawes and Davis. I'd say Kieff has much better backups than Blake.

And according to your understanding, shouldn't Collison been compared with Serge Ibaka? Or can we agree that it isn't comparing starters vs. backups already, because none of the things you are suggesting make sense.

[phrazbit]

Tolliver played a whopping 7 games with more than 12 minutes for us. TJ has had 5 such games. You really going to tell me Tolliver was Kieff's backup?

For sake of statistics, we're comparing Marcus, Plumlee and even Len to Hawes and Davis. I'd say Kieff has much better backups than Blake.

And according to your understanding, shouldn't Collison been compared with Serge Ibaka? Or can we agree that it isn't comparing starters vs. backups already, because none of the things you are suggesting make sense.

We're comparing guys to the alternatives who play the same position on the roster. When Collison was not in the game then far more often than not it was Perkins or Thabeet who were in. Tolliver was used almost exclusively as Markieff's backup, you can't just pretend his minutes didn't happen because it does not fit your argument. Tolliver played just over 270 horrible minutes as Markieff's backup, also in the comparison is Marcus Morris, who should not play PF but does and is lousy in the role. And even so, Hawes is still better than any of the players were discussing as a big man. Plumlee is the one who should not be in the conversation because we're comparing Markieff, the guy who mostly plays PF, and Plumlee has virtually no minutes at PF.

And on top of all that... it does not even matter, the RPM is what is. Blake could have crap reserves, he could have a star behind him, it still would not make RPM a good gauge when comparing him to Morris... because they are not on the same team and its a stat that is based entirely on how one guy effects his team weighted against his own teams alternatives. It does absolutely nothing to show if one player is better than another on opposing rosters.

And Nick Collison is not the only name on there that makes you wonder "WTF is wrong with this stat?"

This stat currently shows Jusuf Nurkic as being better than Marc Gasol, Draymond Green as the best SF in the entire league, Jared Dudley as the 5th best SG in basketball, three spots behind Kyle Korver. And good thing we got Brandon Wright, he is the 2nd best offensive PF in basketball!

If you still think its useful for comparing across rosters then I don't know what to say.

[RunDogGun]

Thabeat played 192 minutes last year. Hardly enough to be added to the conversation.

As far as Blake and fouls, I wasn't talking on the offensive end, although he gets away with much more there as well. The refs are less likely to call offensive fouls on him, than say Keiff. And because Blake attacks the hoop more he often uses his off arm to push defenders away. I've seen a few as highlights to show how great he is, yet all it really shows is offensive fouls are ok for a star. So much so, that they are shown as highlights.

I've watched Blake get bumped to the ground after making an offensive foul, sit on a player, refuse to get off, and when the other player shoves him off, that player gets the foul, not Blake. I've seen him reach out and grab a player (after he fell again) and no call on him. Meanwhile he b*tches far more than many other PFs, yet doesn't get the techs that Markieff gets.

All of this is important, for fouls and techs usually dictates how much floor time a player gets, whether they can get into a groove, and how aggressive a player will be on defense (let's say in the final minutes of a quarter with x amount of fouls).

None of this shows up in the stats line, yet does play a role in honestly evaluating a player.

Oh well, no need to get in a back and forth. I like Collison, and I am very glad that OKC started Perkins or Adams ahead of him, because Collison always plays well against us. The dude is all hustle.

I like Kieff as well, he really has improved, and hopefully he can make a commitment to rebounding.

Blake I don't like. Dude has talent, but is a complete b*tch, gets away with fouls that often affect the outcome of games, and just doesn't seem like a nice guy. Some of his commercials are funny, but he doesn't write them.

[Wannabe MEP]

I can count the number of true SFs ranked in the top 40 on one hand. Weakest position in the league right now?

I think this is a function of style of play: I think this has mostly to do with the fact that it's such a pick-and-roll league right now. The most important players in the league tend to be directly involved in a lot of pick-and-rolls -- both offensively and defensively -- and that's not usually SFs.

The best Offensive RPM players are pick-and-roll ballhandlers:

• Harden
• Curry
• CP3
• Lowry
• Lillard

And the best Defensive RPM players are the bigs patrolling the paint against the pick-and-roll (hedging-and-recovering, switching, helping wall-off the PG drive, etc.):

• Duncan
• Draymond Green
• Bogut
• Ibaka
• Cousins