Is Hornacek the problem?

[oddity]

I'm kind of torn when it comes to this issue.

Many have pointed to the lack of leadership in the locker room as a major weakness for Horny, and I think it's a valid argument. One can retort that he was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, when the FO brought in Isaiah and personalities clashed over minutes and starts, but I still think it's a valid critique. When you have to institute high school type coaching methods and benching your guys because you can't stop them from getting techs otherwise, that's a bad sign. It's proven that a major major factor into how good teams (especially ones with odd lineups like our 2 pg system) succeed is a buying in from every teammate. Even notoriously huge egos like the ones of MJ and Kobe had to be wrestled into the mold of the team. I'm not saying that it has to be the responsibility of the coach - it takes a buying in from all sides - but the best coaches and teams get it done and clearly we're not doing that. Horny deserves at least some criticism for that.

At the same time, he is a young and relatively inexperienced coach, and we as fans are quick to forget that coaches learn and improve as well. But this leads me another point about Suns fandom in general.
Lately we've been clinging to idea of mysticism and intrigue as an excuse for short term mediocrity. "Oh, it's ok that Archie can't even crack the rotation for consistent minutes despite moving 3 guards in the middle of his third year in the NBA - he's a prooooject." While it's fun and great for fans to speculate about some of their young players' potential (and then shake their collective fist at Hornacek for his compacted lineups), there's a thin line between projecting a ceiling and just wishful thinking. If a rookie isn't making a lineup, it's because the coach (and the FO), with playoff goals, don't want to risk playing raw talent over experience. If the raw talent is good enough (see Alex Len/now to a lesser extent TJ Warren) he'll get his playing time, but winning now is clearly the priority. I can't say I really blame Horny for that. And while I'm talking about improvement, don't expect Hornacek himself to improve in dramatic fashion either. While I do think coaches benefit from experience immensely, I highly doubt ours could ever become a SVG in the locker room because of that added experience. This is a big weakness and I don't see it completely going away overnight or maybe ever.

But in the end the most important aspect of a coach is his on-court impact; how the offense and defense is run. From an offensive perspective, I actually like Hornacek's coaching. He runs an offense based off of the drive-and-kick and drive again. Lots of Horns (ironically) and middle P&R define most of his playcalling, where a quick guard like Bledsoe can worm his way into the paint and kick to another threat. He runs loops from one PG to the other with plenty of options along the way, and makes liberal use of screens to either get a 3pt shot or even better iso positioning. This explains how in 13-14 our offense ranked 4th in 3pt attempts, and 9th in Ft attempts. Unfortunately, the reliance on a ball-handler turns this offense stagnant much of the time. in 13-14 (and I'm using this year as a metric because the first half of last year featured a third PG and the latter half had only one for the most part) we were ranked 29th in the entire league in Assists. This is unacceptable and the biggest weakness in Hornacek's offense. Another gripe is that we turned the ball over a high rate (5th), but that can also be attributed to the high pace we ran at. Overall, though, I see a strong foundational offense that can accommodate the 2 pgs we have. I think it's the best place for a Brandon Knight, but only if he buys into his role like what Dragic didn't do.
On defense, we were actually better than advertised. In 13-14 opponents shot the 2ed lowest percentage from 3 in the league and we ranked 13th in Hollinger's defensive efficiency stat. Our defense dipped quite a bit the next year with the notable addition of Isaiah Thomas being a notable subtraction on that end. But after trading IT and Dragic, we somehow imporved to the 10th ranked defense in the NBA, despite the decent defending Brandon Knight only playing 11 games for us. I think with the additions of Tyson Chandler and Brandon Knight we could be an upper echelon team on that end as well.

To wrap this ridiculously long post up, I think Jeff Hornacek is a decent coach for us, at least where it matters the most. That's not to say, though, that his weakness in the locker room can't be a deal-breaker for us. If the problem with players continues to persist, I can totally see him booted out of town. If it gets to that point, though, and if we live in a perfect world, I'd love to see him move down to assistant coach while a better coach takes the big boy chair. It would probably never happen, or even work, but I'd love to see Hornacek's offensive yin to Thibodeau's defensive yang.

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

I'm kind of torn when it comes to this issue.

Many have pointed to the lack of leadership in the locker room as a major weakness for Horny, and I think it's a valid argument. One can retort that he was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, when the FO brought in Isaiah and personalities clashed over minutes and starts, but I still think it's a valid critique. When you have to institute high school type coaching methods and benching your guys because you can't stop them from getting techs otherwise, that's a bad sign. It's proven that a major major factor into how good teams (especially ones with odd lineups like our 2 pg system) succeed is a buying in from every teammate. Even notoriously huge egos like the ones of MJ and Kobe had to be wrestled into the mold of the team. I'm not saying that it has to the responsibility of the coach - it takes a buying in from all sides - but the best coaches and teams get it done and clearly we're not doing that. Horny deserves at least some criticism for that.

At the same time, he is a young and relatively inexperienced coach, and we as fans are quick to forget that coaches learn and improve as well. But this leads me another point about Suns fandom in general.
Lately we've been clinging to idea of mysticism and intrigue as an excuse for short term mediocrity. "Oh, it's ok that Archie can't even crack the rotation for consistent minutes despite moving 3 guards in the middle of his third year in the NBA - he's a prooooject." While it's fun and great for fans to speculate about some of their young players' potential (and then shake their collective fist at Hornacek for his compacted lineups), there's a thin line between projecting a ceiling and just wishful thinking. If a rookie isn't making a lineup, it's because the coach (and the FO), with playoff goals, don't want to risk playing raw talent over experience. If the raw talent is good enough (see Alex Len/now to a lesser extent TJ Warren) he'll get his playing time, but winning now is clearly the priority. I can't say I really blame Horny for that. And while I'm talking about improvement, don't expect Hornacek himself to improve in dramatic fashion either. While I do think coaches benefit from experience immensely, I highly doubt ours could ever become a SVG in the locker room because of that added experience. This is a big weakness and I don't see it completely going away overnight or maybe ever.

But in the end the most important aspect of a coach is his on-court impact; how the offense and defense is run. From an offensive perspective, I actually like Hornacek's coaching. He runs an offense based off of the drive-and-kick and drive again. Lots of Horns (ironically) and middle P&R define most of his playcalling, where a quick guard like Bledsoe can worm his way into the paint and kick to another threat. He runs loops from one PG to the other with plenty of options along the way, and makes liberal use of screens to either get a 3pt shot or even better iso positioning. This explains how in 13-14 our offense ranked 4th in 3pt attempts, and 9th in Ft attempts. Unfortunately, the reliance on a ball-handler turns this offense stagnant much of the time. in 13-14 (and I'm using this year as a metric because the first half of last year featured a third PG and the latter half had only one for the most part) we were ranked 29th in the entire league in Assists. This is unacceptable and the biggest weakness in Hornacek's offense. Another gripe is that we turned the ball over a high rate (5th), but that can also be attributed to the high pace we ran at. Overall, though, I see a strong foundational offense that can accommodate the 2 pgs we have. I think it's the best place for a Brandon Knight, but only if he buys into his role like what Dragic didn't do.
On defense, we were actually better than advertised. In 13-14 opponents shot the 2ed lowest percentage from 3 in the league and we ranked 13th in Hollinger's defensive efficiency stat. Our defense dipped quite a bit the next with the notable addition of Isaiah Thomas being a notable subtraction on that end. But after trading IT and Dragic, we somehow imporved to the 10th ranked defense in the NBA, despite the decent defending Brandon Knight only playing 11 games for us. I think with the additions of Tyson Chandler and Brandon Knight we could be an upper echelon team on that end as well.

To wrap this ridiculously long post up, I think Jeff Hornacek is a decent coach for us, at least where it matters the most. That's not say, though, that his weakness in the locker room can't be a deal-breaker for us. If the problem with players continues to persist, I can totally see him booted out of town. If it gets to that point, though, and if we live in a perfect world, I'd love to see him move down to assistant coach while a better coach takes the big boy chair. It would probably never happen, or even work, but I'd love to see Hornacek's offensive yin to Thibodeau's defensive yang.

I think the majority of the players really like playing for Hornacek. I don't know if the twins did and they obviously didn't get along at times, but I don't have a terrible amount of respect for the twins, especially Marcus. I think Hornacek coached guys to some of their best seasons his first year. The problems with the team this past year, I can't see how some people put so much blame on Hornacek when McD assembled a roster lacking chemistry and had three starting caliber point guards. The moves from last summer clearly impacted the feelings and actions of players on the team and he had a tough job last year.

I think this coming year we have FAR more professional players, especially if Kieff leaves....high character guys like Chandler and Knight, and Booker seems high character, are going to completely change the feel and chemistry on the team and Hornacek's job with be MUCH easier. Hornacek is a smart guy, who players like (from anything I've read other than a little about perhaps the twins and him not getting along...but that might have been Gambo).

It doesn't mean that the top of the WC is going to be easy to crack since our talent is a tier or two below those guys, but we have some depth.

It's too bad Markieff has to be an ass, but I'll wait and see how it plays out.

Having said all that, I agree with most of the rest of your post.

[saintEscaton]

I'm kind of torn when it comes to this issue.

Many have pointed to the lack of leadership in the locker room as a major weakness for Horny, and I think it's a valid argument. One can retort that he was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, when the FO brought in Isaiah and personalities clashed over minutes and starts, but I still think it's a valid critique. When you have to institute high school type coaching methods and benching your guys because you can't stop them from getting techs otherwise, that's a bad sign. It's proven that a major major factor into how good teams (especially ones with odd lineups like our 2 pg system) succeed is a buying in from every teammate. Even notoriously huge egos like the ones of MJ and Kobe had to be wrestled into the mold of the team. I'm not saying that it has to the responsibility of the coach - it takes a buying in from all sides - but the best coaches and teams get it done and clearly we're not doing that. Horny deserves at least some criticism for that.

At the same time, he is a young and relatively inexperienced coach, and we as fans are quick to forget that coaches learn and improve as well. But this leads me another point about Suns fandom in general.
Lately we've been clinging to idea of mysticism and intrigue as an excuse for short term mediocrity. "Oh, it's ok that Archie can't even crack the rotation for consistent minutes despite moving 3 guards in the middle of his third year in the NBA - he's a prooooject." While it's fun and great for fans to speculate about some of their young players' potential (and then shake their collective fist at Hornacek for his compacted lineups), there's a thin line between projecting a ceiling and just wishful thinking. If a rookie isn't making a lineup, it's because the coach (and the FO), with playoff goals, don't want to risk playing raw talent over experience. If the raw talent is good enough (see Alex Len/now to a lesser extent TJ Warren) he'll get his playing time, but winning now is clearly the priority. I can't say I really blame Horny for that. And while I'm talking about improvement, don't expect Hornacek himself to improve in dramatic fashion either. While I do think coaches benefit from experience immensely, I highly doubt ours could ever become a SVG in the locker room because of that added experience. This is a big weakness and I don't see it completely going away overnight or maybe ever.

But in the end the most important aspect of a coach is his on-court impact; how the offense and defense is run. From an offensive perspective, I actually like Hornacek's coaching. He runs an offense based off of the drive-and-kick and drive again. Lots of Horns (ironically) and middle P&R define most of his playcalling, where a quick guard like Bledsoe can worm his way into the paint and kick to another threat. He runs loops from one PG to the other with plenty of options along the way, and makes liberal use of screens to either get a 3pt shot or even better iso positioning. This explains how in 13-14 our offense ranked 4th in 3pt attempts, and 9th in Ft attempts. Unfortunately, the reliance on a ball-handler turns this offense stagnant much of the time. in 13-14 (and I'm using this year as a metric because the first half of last year featured a third PG and the latter half had only one for the most part) we were ranked 29th in the entire league in Assists. This is unacceptable and the biggest weakness in Hornacek's offense. Another gripe is that we turned the ball over a high rate (5th), but that can also be attributed to the high pace we ran at. Overall, though, I see a strong foundational offense that can accommodate the 2 pgs we have. I think it's the best place for a Brandon Knight, but only if he buys into his role like what Dragic didn't do.
On defense, we were actually better than advertised. In 13-14 opponents shot the 2ed lowest percentage from 3 in the league and we ranked 13th in Hollinger's defensive efficiency stat. Our defense dipped quite a bit the next year with the notable addition of Isaiah Thomas being a notable subtraction on that end. But after trading IT and Dragic, we somehow imporved to the 10th ranked defense in the NBA, despite the decent defending Brandon Knight only playing 11 games for us. I think with the additions of Tyson Chandler and Brandon Knight we could be an upper echelon team on that end as well.

To wrap this ridiculously long post up, I think Jeff Hornacek is a decent coach for us, at least where it matters the most. That's not to say, though, that his weakness in the locker room can't be a deal-breaker for us. If the problem with players continues to persist, I can totally see him booted out of town. If it gets to that point, though, and if we live in a perfect world, I'd love to see him move down to assistant coach while a better coach takes the big boy chair. It would probably never happen, or even work, but I'd love to see Hornacek's offensive yin to Thibodeau's defensive yang.

Solid points and analysis. I'm just a little more down on him than you are . Keep up the quality posting!

[oddity]

Spoiler:

I'm kind of torn when it comes to this issue.

Many have pointed to the lack of leadership in the locker room as a major weakness for Horny, and I think it's a valid argument. One can retort that he was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, when the FO brought in Isaiah and personalities clashed over minutes and starts, but I still think it's a valid critique. When you have to institute high school type coaching methods and benching your guys because you can't stop them from getting techs otherwise, that's a bad sign. It's proven that a major major factor into how good teams (especially ones with odd lineups like our 2 pg system) succeed is a buying in from every teammate. Even notoriously huge egos like the ones of MJ and Kobe had to be wrestled into the mold of the team. I'm not saying that it has to the responsibility of the coach - it takes a buying in from all sides - but the best coaches and teams get it done and clearly we're not doing that. Horny deserves at least some criticism for that.

At the same time, he is a young and relatively inexperienced coach, and we as fans are quick to forget that coaches learn and improve as well. But this leads me another point about Suns fandom in general.
Lately we've been clinging to idea of mysticism and intrigue as an excuse for short term mediocrity. "Oh, it's ok that Archie can't even crack the rotation for consistent minutes despite moving 3 guards in the middle of his third year in the NBA - he's a prooooject." While it's fun and great for fans to speculate about some of their young players' potential (and then shake their collective fist at Hornacek for his compacted lineups), there's a thin line between projecting a ceiling and just wishful thinking. If a rookie isn't making a lineup, it's because the coach (and the FO), with playoff goals, don't want to risk playing raw talent over experience. If the raw talent is good enough (see Alex Len/now to a lesser extent TJ Warren) he'll get his playing time, but winning now is clearly the priority. I can't say I really blame Horny for that. And while I'm talking about improvement, don't expect Hornacek himself to improve in dramatic fashion either. While I do think coaches benefit from experience immensely, I highly doubt ours could ever become a SVG in the locker room because of that added experience. This is a big weakness and I don't see it completely going away overnight or maybe ever.

But in the end the most important aspect of a coach is his on-court impact; how the offense and defense is run. From an offensive perspective, I actually like Hornacek's coaching. He runs an offense based off of the drive-and-kick and drive again. Lots of Horns (ironically) and middle P&R define most of his playcalling, where a quick guard like Bledsoe can worm his way into the paint and kick to another threat. He runs loops from one PG to the other with plenty of options along the way, and makes liberal use of screens to either get a 3pt shot or even better iso positioning. This explains how in 13-14 our offense ranked 4th in 3pt attempts, and 9th in Ft attempts. Unfortunately, the reliance on a ball-handler turns this offense stagnant much of the time. in 13-14 (and I'm using this year as a metric because the first half of last year featured a third PG and the latter half had only one for the most part) we were ranked 29th in the entire league in Assists. This is unacceptable and the biggest weakness in Hornacek's offense. Another gripe is that we turned the ball over a high rate (5th), but that can also be attributed to the high pace we ran at. Overall, though, I see a strong foundational offense that can accommodate the 2 pgs we have. I think it's the best place for a Brandon Knight, but only if he buys into his role like what Dragic didn't do.
On defense, we were actually better than advertised. In 13-14 opponents shot the 2ed lowest percentage from 3 in the league and we ranked 13th in Hollinger's defensive efficiency stat. Our defense dipped quite a bit the next with the notable addition of Isaiah Thomas being a notable subtraction on that end. But after trading IT and Dragic, we somehow imporved to the 10th ranked defense in the NBA, despite the decent defending Brandon Knight only playing 11 games for us. I think with the additions of Tyson Chandler and Brandon Knight we could be an upper echelon team on that end as well.

To wrap this ridiculously long post up, I think Jeff Hornacek is a decent coach for us, at least where it matters the most. That's not say, though, that his weakness in the locker room can't be a deal-breaker for us. If the problem with players continues to persist, I can totally see him booted out of town. If it gets to that point, though, and if we live in a perfect world, I'd love to see him move down to assistant coach while a better coach takes the big boy chair. It would probably never happen, or even work, but I'd love to see Hornacek's offensive yin to Thibodeau's defensive yang.

I think the majority of the players really like playing for Hornacek. I don't know if the twins did and they obviously didn't get along at times, but I don't have a terrible amount of respect for the twins, especially Marcus. I think Hornacek coached guys to some of their best seasons his first year. The problems with the team this past year, I can't see how some people put so much blame on Hornacek when McD assembled a roster lacking chemistry and had three starting caliber point guards. The moves from last summer clearly impact the feelings and actions of players on the team and he had a tough job last year. I think this coming year we have FAR more professional players, especially if Kieff leaves....high character guys like Chandler and Knight, and Booker seems high character, are going to completely change the feel and chemistry on the team and Hornacek's job with be MUCH easier. Hornacek is a smart guy, who players like (from anything I've read other than a little about perhaps the twins and him not getting along...but that might have been Gambo).

I agree with that. What I love about Hornacek is his demeanor and near constant smile on his face. Seems like a genuine great guy and I can see how players can bond with a coach like that, especially young guys. The question I have is does he have enough bark in him to take the "bad cop" role if necessary. The tech situation last year leads me to a no, but last year was f***ed up in all sorts of ways.

Solid points and analysis. I'm just a little more down on him than you are . Keep up the quality posting!

Thanks man! I'm a bit more of an optimist myself but I see the point you make too. I live for the analysis schtick

[Cutter]

I could have sworn that I read somewhere very recently that the twins both really like Hornacek. Yeah, Suns have shipped Marcus' ass out of here and he had his meltdown on national TV where he verbally attacked Coach, but that doesn't mean they didn't like or respect him. I just think someone who was in the running for coach of the year his first season as a coach, followed by a tough season last year somehow means he needs to be replaced. This conclusion that he is responsible for the Suns woes last year seem completely reactionary. The comments that he needs to be fired are out right silly.

[JacobHoward]

I could have sworn that I read somewhere very recently that the twins both really like Hornacek. Yeah, Suns have shipped Marcus' ass out of here and he had his meltdown on national TV where he verbally attacked Coach, but that doesn't mean they didn't like or respect him. I just think someone who was in the running for coach of the year his first season as a coach, followed by a tough season last year somehow means he needs to be replaced. This conclusion that he is responsible for the Suns woes last year seem completely reactionary. The comments that he needs to be fired are out right silly.

I read the same thing. I believe Keef said that in the same article where he demanded to be traded. From what he said, it appears the twins only problem is with Suns management.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Moochthemonkey]

I could have sworn that I read somewhere very recently that the twins both really like Hornacek. Yeah, Suns have shipped Marcus' ass out of here and he had his meltdown on national TV where he verbally attacked Coach, but that doesn't mean they didn't like or respect him. I just think someone who was in the running for coach of the year his first season as a coach, followed by a tough season last year somehow means he needs to be replaced. This conclusion that he is responsible for the Suns woes last year seem completely reactionary. The comments that he needs to be fired are out right silly.

yep. Hornacek has plenty of flaws, but the woes of last year can be placed on everyone from the FO to the players. Excluding the 1st and 2nd year players of course.

The Morris brothers are knuckleheads, especially Marcus, but people will still conjure some false drivel as if they need to further validate their wishes for them to be gone and personal vendetta's against the brothers.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/MookMorris2/status/619877004108693504[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/MookMorris2/status/553057590461337602[/tweet]

[Moochthemonkey]

We will see how we are doing around Christmas time. I do not have high hopes.

If we are losing and still playing the same style ball that we did last year, with the ongoing personnel problems, I can't wait for the new excuses.

Hornacek is a boring coach and appears to have had a poor relationship with most of the roster. I don't see that as a recipe for success. How he gets any support from the fans is quite unbelievable. MDA won about 60 wins per year and was run out of town for not being able to turn Steve Nash and Amare into defensive stoppers. Hornacek gets a whole new roster to screw up.

It's too early to fairly compare the two, MDA left after four seasons, after being stubborn to make any defensive or rotation changes. Yeah in hindsight he maybe should have been given another season, but being able to adapt, put faith in assistant coaching staff (a la Steve Kerr-Alvin Gentry, not letting your brother sit on the bench over someone like Tom Thibodeau which was greatly needed) are important qualities. and IMO, coaches on a contending team are on a shorter leash than those on a fringe playoff/rebuilding team.

[Twuan89]

Jeff Hornacek Is A Great Coach.

[Phystic]

We will see how we are doing around Christmas time. I do not have high hopes.

If we are losing and still playing the same style ball that we did last year, with the ongoing personnel problems, I can't wait for the new excuses.

Hornacek is a boring coach and appears to have had a poor relationship with most of the roster. I don't see that as a recipe for success. How he gets any support from the fans is quite unbelievable. MDA won about 60 wins per year and was run out of town for not being able to turn Steve Nash and Amare into defensive stoppers. Hornacek gets a whole new roster to screw up.

McDonough got rid of most all the key players that created 48 wins a couple of years ago, that Hornacek could not coach, with the exception of Bledsoe and Tucker. He did a poor job coaching those guys as well, IMO. Why are they still here?

I will be interested in how he makes the new group into a team. He obviously did a poor job last year. By the way, that is his job. no matter whom the players are.

Life is much better for me when the Suns are winning and fun to watch. I certainly hope Hornacek proves me wrong.

Not even sure how you got to these conclusions. MDA wasn't "run out" because he couldn't turn Nash/Amare into defensive stoppers. He was replaced because he refused to emphasize defense at all. He would rather give up a layup to quickly get the ball back than defend the rim and potentially foul to stop an easy basket. It wasn't a matter of being #1 defensive team, it was a matter of putting a real defensive philosophy in place and holding players accountable. Not to mention D'Antoni cost us any type of long term development plan because he absolutely refused to play young players and ran our starters into the ground. D'Antoni revolutionized modern day NBA with his style of offense. But let's not immortalize the man. There's a reason why he was unsuccessful after leaving Phoenix.

Hornacek was most certainly respected the first year by the entire locker room. And he did a great job getting the team to blend and become a cohesive unit. Which is WHY we won 48 games. Last season he lost control of the Morris brothers which lost him the locker room. He's still a young coach and it's easy to say "Well his job is to control the team regardless" but let's face it that is simply not always possible.

[Puff]

We will see how we are doing around Christmas time. I do not have high hopes.

If we are losing and still playing the same style ball that we did last year, with the ongoing personnel problems, I can't wait for the new excuses.

Hornacek is a boring coach and appears to have had a poor relationship with most of the roster. I don't see that as a recipe for success. How he gets any support from the fans is quite unbelievable. MDA won about 60 wins per year and was run out of town for not being able to turn Steve Nash and Amare into defensive stoppers. Hornacek gets a whole new roster to screw up.

McDonough got rid of most all the key players that created 48 wins a couple of years ago, that Hornacek could not coach, with the exception of Bledsoe and Tucker. He did a poor job coaching those guys as well, IMO. Why are they still here?

I will be interested in how he makes the new group into a team. He obviously did a poor job last year. By the way, that is his job. no matter whom the players are.

Life is much better for me when the Suns are winning and fun to watch. I certainly hope Hornacek proves me wrong.

Not even sure how you got to these conclusions. MDA wasn't "run out" because he couldn't turn Nash/Amare into defensive stoppers. He was replaced because he refused to emphasize defense at all. He would rather give up a layup to quickly get the ball back than defend the rim and potentially foul to stop an easy basket. It wasn't a matter of being #1 defensive team, it was a matter of putting a real defensive philosophy in place and holding players accountable. Not to mention D'Antoni cost us any type of long term development plan because he absolutely refused to play young players and ran our starters into the ground. D'Antoni revolutionized modern day NBA with his style of offense. But let's not immortalize the man. There's a reason why he was unsuccessful after leaving Phoenix.

Hornacek was most certainly respected the first year by the entire locker room. And he did a great job getting the team to blend and become a cohesive unit. Which is WHY we won 48 games. Last season he lost control of the Morris brothers which lost him the locker room. He's still a young coach and it's easy to say "Well his job is to control the team regardless" but let's face it that is simply not always possible.

As most on this board you really have no clue. The suggestion that D'Antoni could not develop any young players shows yours and others absolute ignorance on the situation. It really is not your fault, the media beat that drum, especially guys like Barkley. Unfortunately you guys bought into the garbage. He had no young players worth a crap to develop that were not part of his first seven and so he didn't play them. Give me a name that succeeded with another team that MDA did not play. YOU CAN'T. When he started to develop a young center, Steven Hunter, Sarver would not pay the price to keep him around. Sarver also forced the GM and MDA to pass on several draft picks (Iggy - a really good defender) so they would not go into the luxury tax. MDA agreed with the plan so they could keep the first seven around.

I think Hoarnacek did a horrible job managing the entire season last year. He lost control of the team. He has a complete roster this year with the exception of the Markieff question mark. He has no excuses. If we win less than 30 games this year we will see what excuses you guys make up this year. I hope he proves me wrong and we win 50 or more and go to the playoffs.

The great Steve Kerr stepped into a loaded and balanced roster at Golden State, while coaching basically the style basketball MDA coached. Oh that's right Mike' lead assistant was also Kerr's, hmmmm. If Kerr would have done his job as GM while he was with the Suns we would have won a ring with or without Thibodeau.

Surely MDA made the decision to leave but it was obvious Kerr wanted to be a coach rather than do his primary job. Which as I see is to give the coach a complete roster of players to coach.

[bwgood77]

We will see how we are doing around Christmas time. I do not have high hopes.

If we are losing and still playing the same style ball that we did last year, with the ongoing personnel problems, I can't wait for the new excuses.

Hornacek is a boring coach and appears to have had a poor relationship with most of the roster. I don't see that as a recipe for success. How he gets any support from the fans is quite unbelievable. MDA won about 60 wins per year and was run out of town for not being able to turn Steve Nash and Amare into defensive stoppers. Hornacek gets a whole new roster to screw up.

McDonough got rid of most all the key players that created 48 wins a couple of years ago, that Hornacek could not coach, with the exception of Bledsoe and Tucker. He did a poor job coaching those guys as well, IMO. Why are they still here?

I will be interested in how he makes the new group into a team. He obviously did a poor job last year. By the way, that is his job. no matter whom the players are.

Life is much better for me when the Suns are winning and fun to watch. I certainly hope Hornacek proves me wrong.

Not even sure how you got to these conclusions. MDA wasn't "run out" because he couldn't turn Nash/Amare into defensive stoppers. He was replaced because he refused to emphasize defense at all. He would rather give up a layup to quickly get the ball back than defend the rim and potentially foul to stop an easy basket. It wasn't a matter of being #1 defensive team, it was a matter of putting a real defensive philosophy in place and holding players accountable. Not to mention D'Antoni cost us any type of long term development plan because he absolutely refused to play young players and ran our starters into the ground. D'Antoni revolutionized modern day NBA with his style of offense. But let's not immortalize the man. There's a reason why he was unsuccessful after leaving Phoenix.

Hornacek was most certainly respected the first year by the entire locker room. And he did a great job getting the team to blend and become a cohesive unit. Which is WHY we won 48 games. Last season he lost control of the Morris brothers which lost him the locker room. He's still a young coach and it's easy to say "Well his job is to control the team regardless" but let's face it that is simply not always possible.

As most on this board you really have no clue. The suggestion that D'Antoni could not develop any young players shows yours and others absolute ignorance on the situation. It really is not your fault, the media beat that drum, especially guys like Barkley. Unfortunately you guys bought into the garbage. He had no young players worth a crap to develop that were not part of his first seven and so he didn't play them. Give me a name that succeeded with another team that MDA did not play. YOU CAN'T. When he started to develop a young center, Steven Hunter, Sarver would not pay the price to keep him around. Sarver also forced the GM and MDA to pass on several draft picks (Iggy - a really good defender) so they would not go into the luxury tax. MDA agreed with the plan so they could keep the first seven around.

I think Hoarnacek did a horrible job managing the entire season last year. He lost control of the team. He has a complete roster this year with the exception of the Markieff question mark. He has no excuses. If we win less than 30 games this year we will see what excuses you guys make up this year. I hope he proves me wrong and we win 50 or more and go to the playoffs.

The great Steve Kerr stepped into a loaded and balanced roster at Golden State, while coaching basically the style basketball MDA coached. Oh that's right Mike' lead assistant was also Kerr's, hmmmm. If Kerr would have done his job as GM while he was with the Suns we would have won a ring with or without Thibodeau.

Surely MDA made the decision to leave but it was obvious Kerr wanted to be a coach rather than do his primary job. Which as I see is to give the coach a complete roster of players to coach.

The problem last year wasn't losing the locker room. It was the makeup of the roster. You may disagree but I don't think we had elite talent or a roster makeup that made any sense. And we had a bunch of injuries on top of that.

[Moochthemonkey]

We will see how we are doing around Christmas time. I do not have high hopes.

If we are losing and still playing the same style ball that we did last year, with the ongoing personnel problems, I can't wait for the new excuses.

Hornacek is a boring coach and appears to have had a poor relationship with most of the roster. I don't see that as a recipe for success. How he gets any support from the fans is quite unbelievable. MDA won about 60 wins per year and was run out of town for not being able to turn Steve Nash and Amare into defensive stoppers. Hornacek gets a whole new roster to screw up.

McDonough got rid of most all the key players that created 48 wins a couple of years ago, that Hornacek could not coach, with the exception of Bledsoe and Tucker. He did a poor job coaching those guys as well, IMO. Why are they still here?

I will be interested in how he makes the new group into a team. He obviously did a poor job last year. By the way, that is his job. no matter whom the players are.

Life is much better for me when the Suns are winning and fun to watch. I certainly hope Hornacek proves me wrong.

Not even sure how you got to these conclusions. MDA wasn't "run out" because he couldn't turn Nash/Amare into defensive stoppers. He was replaced because he refused to emphasize defense at all. He would rather give up a layup to quickly get the ball back than defend the rim and potentially foul to stop an easy basket. It wasn't a matter of being #1 defensive team, it was a matter of putting a real defensive philosophy in place and holding players accountable. Not to mention D'Antoni cost us any type of long term development plan because he absolutely refused to play young players and ran our starters into the ground. D'Antoni revolutionized modern day NBA with his style of offense. But let's not immortalize the man. There's a reason why he was unsuccessful after leaving Phoenix.

Hornacek was most certainly respected the first year by the entire locker room. And he did a great job getting the team to blend and become a cohesive unit. Which is WHY we won 48 games. Last season he lost control of the Morris brothers which lost him the locker room. He's still a young coach and it's easy to say "Well his job is to control the team regardless" but let's face it that is simply not always possible.

As most on this board you really have no clue. The suggestion that D'Antoni could not develop any young players shows yours and others absolute ignorance on the situation. It really is not your fault, the media beat that drum, especially guys like Barkley. Unfortunately you guys bought into the garbage. He had no young players worth a crap to develop that were not part of his first seven and so he didn't play them. Give me a name that succeeded with another team that MDA did not play. YOU CAN'T. When he started to develop a young center, Steven Hunter, Sarver would not pay the price to keep him around. Sarver also forced the GM and MDA to pass on several draft picks (Iggy - a really good defender) so they would not go into the luxury tax. MDA agreed with the plan so they could keep the first seven around.

I think Hoarnacek did a horrible job managing the entire season last year. He lost control of the team. He has a complete roster this year with the exception of the Markieff question mark. He has no excuses. If we win less than 30 games this year we will see what excuses you guys make up this year. I hope he proves me wrong and we win 50 or more and go to the playoffs.

The great Steve Kerr stepped into a loaded and balanced roster at Golden State, while coaching basically the style basketball MDA coached. Oh that's right Mike' lead assistant was also Kerr's, hmmmm. If Kerr would have done his job as GM while he was with the Suns we would have won a ring with or without Thibodeau.

Surely MDA made the decision to leave but it was obvious Kerr wanted to be a coach rather than do his primary job. Which as I see is to give the coach a complete roster of players to coach.

You are probably right about D'Antoni not having any decent young players to develop, but that point is mostly irrelevant when the team you coach is vying for a championship. I see you conveniently chose to ignore Phystic's point about D'Antoni being stubborn to instill anything resembling defensive practices. That was moreso the main issue and why the team (unsuccessfully) pursued a more defensive minded coach in Porter.

If the Suns win less than 30 games, barring any major issues, that means the team took a HUGE stepback, why would the fans make any excuses?? Under-performing in your second year, but being a surprisingly good coach in your rookie year is reason enough to allow at least another shot. If a player wins rookie of the year, but isn't as good in his second year, should the team elect not to pick up his player option? Because that's equivocally the same, as coaches cannot be traded.

You're only half correct, Steve Kerr played a hybrid style of Popovich-MDA, they had considerably better defense than any MDA team. Not to mention they went 9-10 players deep in the rotation. Gentry is an offensive minded coach that compliments Kerr. Without Gentry, the Warriors are less likely to have won the championship. The team and coaching staff was BALANCED. All of MDA's staff were offensive minded coaches, maybe that tall guy with glasses (who went on to coach the Clippers or Grizzlies for a year iirc) who's name eludes me was brought in for defense. Thibodeau or not, electing not to pursue him because of some silly nepotic reasons was a bad decision.

Yes, Kerr made some questionable moves. Yes, Hornacek needs to command more respect from his players. But to place the majority of the blame on him is unfair, don't be so quick to use him as a scapegoat when the GM and players themselves are also largely at fault for last year's woes.

[Phystic]

Spoiler:

We will see how we are doing around Christmas time. I do not have high hopes.

If we are losing and still playing the same style ball that we did last year, with the ongoing personnel problems, I can't wait for the new excuses.

Hornacek is a boring coach and appears to have had a poor relationship with most of the roster. I don't see that as a recipe for success. How he gets any support from the fans is quite unbelievable. MDA won about 60 wins per year and was run out of town for not being able to turn Steve Nash and Amare into defensive stoppers. Hornacek gets a whole new roster to screw up.

McDonough got rid of most all the key players that created 48 wins a couple of years ago, that Hornacek could not coach, with the exception of Bledsoe and Tucker. He did a poor job coaching those guys as well, IMO. Why are they still here?

I will be interested in how he makes the new group into a team. He obviously did a poor job last year. By the way, that is his job. no matter whom the players are.

Life is much better for me when the Suns are winning and fun to watch. I certainly hope Hornacek proves me wrong.

Not even sure how you got to these conclusions. MDA wasn't "run out" because he couldn't turn Nash/Amare into defensive stoppers. He was replaced because he refused to emphasize defense at all. He would rather give up a layup to quickly get the ball back than defend the rim and potentially foul to stop an easy basket. It wasn't a matter of being #1 defensive team, it was a matter of putting a real defensive philosophy in place and holding players accountable. Not to mention D'Antoni cost us any type of long term development plan because he absolutely refused to play young players and ran our starters into the ground. D'Antoni revolutionized modern day NBA with his style of offense. But let's not immortalize the man. There's a reason why he was unsuccessful after leaving Phoenix.

Hornacek was most certainly respected the first year by the entire locker room. And he did a great job getting the team to blend and become a cohesive unit. Which is WHY we won 48 games. Last season he lost control of the Morris brothers which lost him the locker room. He's still a young coach and it's easy to say "Well his job is to control the team regardless" but let's face it that is simply not always possible.

As most on this board you really have no clue. The suggestion that D'Antoni could not develop any young players shows yours and others absolute ignorance on the situation. It really is not your fault, the media beat that drum, especially guys like Barkley. Unfortunately you guys bought into the garbage. He had no young players worth a crap to develop that were not part of his first seven and so he didn't play them. Give me a name that succeeded with another team that MDA did not play. YOU CAN'T. When he started to develop a young center, Steven Hunter, Sarver would not pay the price to keep him around. Sarver also forced the GM and MDA to pass on several draft picks (Iggy - a really good defender) so they would not go into the luxury tax. MDA agreed with the plan so they could keep the first seven around.

I think Hoarnacek did a horrible job managing the entire season last year. He lost control of the team. He has a complete roster this year with the exception of the Markieff question mark. He has no excuses. If we win less than 30 games this year we will see what excuses you guys make up this year. I hope he proves me wrong and we win 50 or more and go to the playoffs.

The great Steve Kerr stepped into a loaded and balanced roster at Golden State, while coaching basically the style basketball MDA coached. Oh that's right Mike' lead assistant was also Kerr's, hmmmm. If Kerr would have done his job as GM while he was with the Suns we would have won a ring with or without Thibodeau.

Surely MDA made the decision to leave but it was obvious Kerr wanted to be a coach rather than do his primary job. Which as I see is to give the coach a complete roster of players to coach.

Wow, I don't really know where to begin with such a poor post. Not only do you start by insulting someone for disagreeing with you but you pile on by lumping the majority of the forum. Apparently you are the only Suns fan that knows what he's talking about. Everyone knows the majority is usually wrong. But you don't stop there.... oh no you don't. You follow that up with a flood of stupidity. So I guess I'll reply step by step...

When it comes to the youth, how can you accurately say we had no young talent if MDA didn't ever play them to see what we had? Granted it's easy for people like you to jump on the bandwagon and blame it on Sarver. A lot of picks were traded, but I would say it's at least partly because what the point in paying youth when MDA refused to play anyone outside of a 7 man rotation. He just wouldn't do it. Period. He didn't start to develop Steven Hunter. It was the first year here and we had nobody to put at C. He was the most athletic so he was the starter by default. And that's the only reason. Your Iggy example is ridiculous. We didn't expect Iggy to be available and traded the pick. The salary cap(not luxury tax line) was at 43.87M in 2004-2005(http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/salary_cap) and our combined salary without that pick was at about 44.6M(http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2005.html). Where do you get your claim that we passed on Iggy to avoid the luxury tax? We wouldn't have been close to it.

So wait a second. If we win less than 30 games you prove your point, and if we win more than 50 you'll be proved wrong? That is a gigantic gap. I'm sure you'll think you were justified if we only win 40-45 games. He did lost control of the locker room last year, in fact I said just that. I'm not sure what your point is.

As for your opinion of Kerr, wow. Just ... wow. First, yes he joined a stacked team. A team that wasn't exactly great defensively prior to that season. And yet somehow they were among the best defensive teams in the league. While simultaneously running MDA's offensive style(as you pointed out). Weird how that works huh? Curry may not be as bad as Nash was on defense but I would say he was not a great defensive player prior to this past season. And Gentry, it's weird that when Gentry was the Suns HC(that's Head Coach, just to be clear) the Suns were among the bottom 10 defensive teams. Weird, Gentry's lead ranging from 23rd-25th in the league in defensive rating. Hornacek actually topped that mark last year and the year before but that's not really relevant here. Kerr actually did fairly decent towrds the end of his tenure here. He tried to change the culture of our team. He had quite a mess to clean up after MDA botched our team and then Amare jumped ship. Kerr definitely made his missteps but it wasn't like he phoned it in. And no, the Suns winning a ring was not the fault of Kerr's. If you think that, then you are a lost cause.

Suns(and MDA) actually won 55 games his final year. And lost 4-1 in the 1st round because MDA couldn't put together a defensive plan to prevent Tony Parker from AVERAGING 30 and 7 against us that series.

But clearly you are right and every other Suns fan/media head is wrong