Good Zach Lowe piece: "Sorting through the drama in Phoenix"

[AtheJ415]

I liked this part: "That is true, but look again that 2013-14 Suns roster and ask yourself what cornerstone young players the Suns have forsaken to build their current mishmash team. Marcus Morris is the only candidate. He'd be the Suns' best small forward now, but Marcus Morris alone is not determining the fate of any franchise. The Suns did not destroy a young team destined to grow into a contender."

I don't think the surprise year messed things up the way many do. We ended up getting young talent that is good regardless of the pick. We didn't trade for vets at the expense of anyone.

Although I think he's mischaracterizing Marcus being the best SF on this team. TJ is way better imo, particularly when you factor in the attitude aspect.

The solution is pretty easy to me:

Trade the dead weight: That means Tucker, Markieff, Chandler, and Price
Shore up the rotations: Stop going all offense or all defense and making mindblowing decisions to put guys in scenarios that they have proven to suck at.
Get the team, and Knight in particular, to buy in: Guys have roles changed all the time. Coaches are able to make this work with other teams all the time. Hornacek needs to get him to buy into the role he needs him to play on both ends of the court. And for all the discussion of offensive tension between Knight and Bledsoe, their offensive numbers are really good. It's their defense that has been a problem.

I used to really not understand why Price played at all. But after watching Knight continue to get the ball taken right out of his hands, or just lose the dribble, I now understand why Price is needed. I mean I wish we had Ennis or like you mentioned McConnell, and in that case, I'd be fine dumping Price, but since the goal still seems to be playoffs, we cannot have no decent ballhandler out there running the offense, particularly while Bledsoe is out.

Now if the approach was to tank (and it probably should be), I'd be fine getting rid of Price. But I think guys like Warren and Booker might even develop more quickly if they played with Price than Knight, because he would likely get them more involved.

Totally fine dumping the other guys though regardless.

Price is probably more of a PG and has better court vision than Knight.

His numbers are much worse though. And I'd rather play the 24 year old who has a hope of helping us long term than the 32 year old who can't. Knight is a 2 guard, but I'd still rather him be on the court as much as possible as opposed to Price. Let him struggle and learn from it. He has played the 1 before and nearly made the all star game doing it, despite playing it like a 2 guard.

[Revived]

I used to really not understand why Price played at all. But after watching Knight continue to get the ball taken right out of his hands, or just lose the dribble, I now understand why Price is needed. I mean I wish we had Ennis or like you mentioned McConnell, and in that case, I'd be fine dumping Price, but since the goal still seems to be playoffs, we cannot have no decent ballhandler out there running the offense, particularly while Bledsoe is out.

Now if the approach was to tank (and it probably should be), I'd be fine getting rid of Price. But I think guys like Warren and Booker might even develop more quickly if they played with Price than Knight, because he would likely get them more involved.

Totally fine dumping the other guys though regardless.

Price is probably more of a PG and has better court vision than Knight.

His numbers are much worse though. And I'd rather play the 24 year old who has a hope of helping us long term than the 32 year old who can't. Knight is a 2 guard, but I'd still rather him be on the court as much as possible as opposed to Price. Let him struggle and learn from it. He has played the 1 before and nearly made the all star game doing it, despite playing it like a 2 guard.

Knight has actually played a lot of minutes and he's struggled plenty but I'm not sure he's learned from it. The same very complaints that Pistons and Bucks fans had about him are the complaints that Suns fans had about him. Knight may be 24 but he's definitely played more minutes in his NBA career than probably the average 24 year old in the NBA. This is a guy that's played a TON of minutes for various teams throughout his NBA career before his rookie contract even ended.

I remember at the trade time a Bucks fan on their forum me that Knight is the type of guy who will put up ELITE superstar type numbers on the statbook but if you actually watch him play, you want him off the team. Called Knight the perfect example and definition of empty stats guy that people accuse guys like Kevin Love etc of. Said most of their fans who don't watch the games (and lets face it Wisconsin cares much about their Packers than they do Bucks) loved Knight because of the stats and even bought his jerseys but for their die hard fans who actually watch the games, its how they differentiated between fans who watch games and fans who just read the box scores.

I would be fine with Knight if he wasn't such a blackhole. His vision is a concern. I quite frankly don't care much for his stats, I care more so about the type of decisions he makes in regards to whether or not passing when you are heavily contested or taking a contested jumper (like Lowe mentions in his article) or if he's taking those god awful worst shot in basketball long 2s with his foot on the line etc. I'm hoping for the best and that he improves.

He wants to be the sole PG so badly according to Lowe, here's chance lets see what he's got.

[bwgood77]

His numbers are much worse though. And I'd rather play the 24 year old who has a hope of helping us long term than the 32 year old who can't. Knight is a 2 guard, but I'd still rather him be on the court as much as possible as opposed to Price. Let him struggle and learn from it. He has played the 1 before and nearly made the all star game doing it, despite playing it like a 2 guard.

I agree, but Price is going to have to play some, because Knight can't play 48 minutes, and I will understand when he does. I certainly don't want Goodwin running the point.

[RunDogGun]

I always thought Hornacek wanted the two PG system and that McD was giving him the PGs for it.

If McD is the one forcing the two PGs on to Hornacek then that changes everything in my opinion.

I've seen you say that. I don't think McD would really allow a coach to dictate his moves. I don't know that McD planned on it from day one, and guessing he was originally planning on trading Dragic sooner in year one, but after things worked as well as they did, he thought Hornacek style made them tough to stop, so gave him those players.

I think Hornacek would rather have a two guard more in the mold of himself, who has a good handle, but is more of a traditional SG, or at least become one. I mean KJ was DEFINITELY the primary PG with him, as was Stockton. If you end up with two guys who are unhappy as SGs, that's always going to be a problem.

I think Jeff is always searching for that KJ/Hornacek combo, where it doesn't really matter who brings up the ball, or initiates the offense. Our problem is Knight hasn't gotten used to be the secondary ball handler at times. Bledsoe has a similar problem, so when they are in together they can waste too much of the clock getting things going, or chuck up a shot when no one is anywhere near in position to rebound. Sometimes they are on, and those shots work. I'd like to see better plays to free up Knight on shots. We don't get guys catching the ball in rhythm, which may mean they just aren't used to each other fully. I think Keiffs lack of effort in many games screwed up the flow. Maybe the attitude is bringing everyone down, who knows? And I think we'd all love Bledsoe to turn into a KJ type point guard. A guy that can average around 20/8-10. But Bledsoe needs to watch a ton of film, and get used to the comfort zones of players.

[saintEscaton]

"Phoenix would be near the top of the league in shoulder shrugs and pointed fingers, especially when younger players are in the game. Can we get the SportVU cameras to track that stuff?" That quote is gold and sums up the current state of things

[bwgood77]

I've been waiting for Lowe's take on the squad for a while, and he delivered a solid take(IMO):
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14451352/the-suns-belief-competitive-building-future-taken-toll

What do you guys think?

it's true... all of it. the injuries, the towels, the trades. they're real.

OK Han, thanks for your take. But nice reference.

[AtheJ415]

I always thought Hornacek wanted the two PG system and that McD was giving him the PGs for it.

If McD is the one forcing the two PGs on to Hornacek then that changes everything in my opinion.

I've seen you say that. I don't think McD would really allow a coach to dictate his moves. I don't know that McD planned on it from day one, and guessing he was originally planning on trading Dragic sooner in year one, but after things worked as well as they did, he thought Hornacek style made them tough to stop, so gave him those players.

I think Hornacek would rather have a two guard more in the mold of himself, who has a good handle, but is more of a traditional SG, or at least become one. I mean KJ was DEFINITELY the primary PG with him, as was Stockton. If you end up with two guys who are unhappy as SGs, that's always going to be a problem.

I think Jeff is always searching for that KJ/Hornacek combo, where it doesn't really matter who brings up the ball, or initiates the offense. Our problem is Knight hasn't gotten used to be the secondary ball handler at times. Bledsoe has a similar problem, so when they are in together they can waste too much of the clock getting things going, or chuck up a shot when no one is anywhere near in position to rebound. Sometimes they are on, and those shots work. I'd like to see better plays to free up Knight on shots. We don't get guys catching the ball in rhythm, which may mean they just aren't used to each other fully. I think Keiffs lack of effort in many games screwed up the flow. Maybe the attitude is bringing everyone down, who knows? And I think we'd all love Bledsoe to turn into a KJ type point guard. A guy that can average around 20/8-10. But Bledsoe needs to watch a ton of film, and get used to the comfort zones of players.

They need to get Knight to buy into his role. Hell, they need to get everyone to buy into their roles. Aside from Bledsoe, I'm not sure that's clear for anyone on this roster.

And they need to get the entire team to buy into playing hard on defense.

All of the other issues we have are symptoms of this and other broader problems imo.

[bwgood77]

I've seen you say that. I don't think McD would really allow a coach to dictate his moves. I don't know that McD planned on it from day one, and guessing he was originally planning on trading Dragic sooner in year one, but after things worked as well as they did, he thought Hornacek style made them tough to stop, so gave him those players.

I think Hornacek would rather have a two guard more in the mold of himself, who has a good handle, but is more of a traditional SG, or at least become one. I mean KJ was DEFINITELY the primary PG with him, as was Stockton. If you end up with two guys who are unhappy as SGs, that's always going to be a problem.

I think Jeff is always searching for that KJ/Hornacek combo, where it doesn't really matter who brings up the ball, or initiates the offense. Our problem is Knight hasn't gotten used to be the secondary ball handler at times. Bledsoe has a similar problem, so when they are in together they can waste too much of the clock getting things going, or chuck up a shot when no one is anywhere near in position to rebound. Sometimes they are on, and those shots work. I'd like to see better plays to free up Knight on shots. We don't get guys catching the ball in rhythm, which may mean they just aren't used to each other fully. I think Keiffs lack of effort in many games screwed up the flow. Maybe the attitude is bringing everyone down, who knows? And I think we'd all love Bledsoe to turn into a KJ type point guard. A guy that can average around 20/8-10. But Bledsoe needs to watch a ton of film, and get used to the comfort zones of players.

They need to get Knight to buy into his role. Hell, they need to get everyone to buy into their roles. Aside from Bledsoe, I'm not sure that's clear for anyone on this roster.

And they need to get the entire team to buy into playing hard on defense.

All of the other issues we have are symptoms of this and other broader problems imo.

I think Leuer has, Warren has, Len has, Booker has, PJ has, Price has, Tyson has....sure, Booker and Warren need to play better defense but it typically takes a while to develop into quality nba defenders. I think Knight is the major factor. Kieff even knows his role if he wasn't a headcase. I think Telly has too. I think Bledsoe AND Knight need to initiate the offense more and try to become pass first. I don't mind them both taking shots, but would like them to take them more off of passes from one another instead of playing iso.

Honestly I think part of the reason is these guys grew up idolizing Kobe, where they should have studied guys like KJ, Nash, Kidd, LeBron, etc.

[AtheJ415]

I think Jeff is always searching for that KJ/Hornacek combo, where it doesn't really matter who brings up the ball, or initiates the offense. Our problem is Knight hasn't gotten used to be the secondary ball handler at times. Bledsoe has a similar problem, so when they are in together they can waste too much of the clock getting things going, or chuck up a shot when no one is anywhere near in position to rebound. Sometimes they are on, and those shots work. I'd like to see better plays to free up Knight on shots. We don't get guys catching the ball in rhythm, which may mean they just aren't used to each other fully. I think Keiffs lack of effort in many games screwed up the flow. Maybe the attitude is bringing everyone down, who knows? And I think we'd all love Bledsoe to turn into a KJ type point guard. A guy that can average around 20/8-10. But Bledsoe needs to watch a ton of film, and get used to the comfort zones of players.

They need to get Knight to buy into his role. Hell, they need to get everyone to buy into their roles. Aside from Bledsoe, I'm not sure that's clear for anyone on this roster.

And they need to get the entire team to buy into playing hard on defense.

All of the other issues we have are symptoms of this and other broader problems imo.

I think Leuer has, Warren has, Len has, Booker has, PJ has, Price has, Tyson has....sure, Booker and Warren need to play better defense but it typically takes a while to develop into quality nba defenders. I think Knight is the major factor. Kieff even knows his role if he wasn't a headcase. I think Telly has too. I think Bledsoe AND Knight need to initiate the offense more and try to become pass first. I don't mind them both taking shots, but would like them to take them more off of passes from one another instead of playing iso.

Honestly I think part of the reason is these guys grew up idolizing Kobe, where they should have studied guys like KJ, Nash, Kidd, LeBron, etc.

I think of that group, Leuer has. The others, particularly Tyson, I don't see as having done that. Particularly when you are moving from the bench to starter to sometimes playing 30+ minutes to randomly playing 15 despite starting, I don't know how you could say the youngsters have. Their role as starter and even then the minutes they play are never consistent.

[bwgood77]

Fair enough.

[jcsunsfan]

I agree with Lowe. I don't think firing Horny is going to help anything. I wonder what those assistant coaches said that got them fired.

I have no problem with a two point guard offense, IF they are truly pg's. Our problem is that we have two self-perceived LEAD guards who think about their own shot first.

It has to start with Bledsoe. But since he is now out, Knight is going to get a chance to show he is a pg.


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[Revived]

They need to get Knight to buy into his role. Hell, they need to get everyone to buy into their roles. Aside from Bledsoe, I'm not sure that's clear for anyone on this roster.

And they need to get the entire team to buy into playing hard on defense.

All of the other issues we have are symptoms of this and other broader problems imo.

I think Leuer has, Warren has, Len has, Booker has, PJ has, Price has, Tyson has....sure, Booker and Warren need to play better defense but it typically takes a while to develop into quality nba defenders. I think Knight is the major factor. Kieff even knows his role if he wasn't a headcase. I think Telly has too. I think Bledsoe AND Knight need to initiate the offense more and try to become pass first. I don't mind them both taking shots, but would like them to take them more off of passes from one another instead of playing iso.

Honestly I think part of the reason is these guys grew up idolizing Kobe, where they should have studied guys like KJ, Nash, Kidd, LeBron, etc.

I think of that group, Leuer has. The others, particularly Tyson, I don't see as having done that. Particularly when you are moving from the bench to starter to sometimes playing 30+ minutes to randomly playing 15 despite starting, I don't know how you could say the youngsters have. Their role as starter and even then the minutes they play are never consistent.

Amen. In the 3 years that Hornacek has been coach, I can't remember one time when the Suns actually had a consistent rotation. Nobody knew when they would play or if they would even play other than the few obvious starters.