Are the Suns a treadmill team?

[NavLDO]

If we win 54 games, I won't care if we are considered a treadmill team or not, because I'll have to deal with the monkeys flying outta my butt.

Well, are we a 54 win team and 1) the 8th Seed, and drafting 16th, 2) the 9th Seed, drafting 14th, or 3) the 4th Seed, drafting 22nd--because according to this forum, if it's the 1st two, we're treadmilling, but if it's the 3rd option, then we're not, so that should clear it up for you...

[NavLDO]

I don't consider those two years "mediocre". Would you consider the 2014 season mediocre if we were in the East and .....

2014 ? yes, we were a mediocre team that far exceeded its expectations. If it was so good, who is left from that squad ???? Where is that core ? You can't trumpet the success of that team with out acknowledging the dismantling of it. and come on.... the big 'IF we played in the east' rebuttal??? We don't. -- You are ABSOLUTELY right, we DON'T play in the East, because if we did, we would've likely won 3-5 more games, so yes, a good team. And who do we still have? -- Bledsoe, Len, Kieff, Tucker, Goodwin and would've been Dragic, had he not 'whined incessantly' about how the team was managed. Are they not a good core group to have, with now having Booker and Warren as potentials, then adding Knight, who played all of 10 games last season? And how about the 25-57 team? Mediocre? 25 wins to 48 wins to 39 wins is inconsistent, not mediocre.

We are not a good team yet. Good teams do not sack half their roster year in year out. Good teams have an established core. An established player to build around. We have neither. Oh wait... We now have Tyson Chandler our anointed savior and keeper of the Locker Room. We sure put a load on him. Now, the ultimate role player is our leader ?

I think this discussion morphed into an examination of McDuh's practices. Its clear, some here preach patience with him, while some critique results/actions. Frankly, last yr smacked the gold plating off him. No way did it turn out like they planned. Knee jerk reactionary moves is what I witnessed.... yet he gets praise from others for salvaging what he could from the mess.... that he created. -- You are right, it's about perspective--you and others view McDonough's dealings negatively, where as other, more patient fans understand you don't build a contender in 2 years. And since you choose to judge McD negatively on one or two deals, there's no convincing you or others otherwise. But I'm fairly confident that were this poll placed on the GB, it would be more reflective of the 'no' side of the argument.

We really have very little to offer in trade. Marginal unproven talent. Some youngsters with promise. A few extra picks 2-3 yrs down the road. We can't trade for a superstar, can't out bid others to get one, and have yet to create a environment attractive to entice one. -- Yep, LMA wasn't intrigued at all, was he...oops...should have ended after 'can't outbid..." statement. And let me ask you this, place LMA's family in AZ and who does he choose, then, hmm? And yes, I'm putting LMA in superstar status, but if you don't, then you are being unreasonable, because there are only 12-15 players better than LMA by most standards. And Chandler, while not a 'super'star, is a star in his own right, and easily a top 30 player in the league, regardless of age. Drafting a superstar is unlikely as these kids take 3-4 years to develop.(thats another story) Nobody is clamoring to play for our coach, and from almost day one, our owner has been a prickly participant in the FO. Nobody comes out and says it, but there is a very good chance players look at our front office with a negative view.

It is unstable footing here in Phoenix.

I do acknowledge adding Chandler, Teletovic, and Weems is a positive. Getting rid of CusMo... a positive. We are instantly more likable. What ever we do with Keif and Tucker has yet to be seen, but I'd be surprised if they remain. We should be better, but there is multiple Ifs that have to happen for us to be anything more than a 9-10 seed.

Start jogging, at least the speed is set on low. .

C'mon man, I love you as a poster--clearly one of the best on this forum, but we just disagree on this point, and again, I suspect more non-Suns fan than not, would characterize this team as NOT a treadmill team, but a retooling team. How can we have 8 of 13 players age 26 or younger, but most importantly, only two of the five others really considered as integral pieces of the team, and still be considered treadmilling. Are we 'mediocre'? No clue, since outside of 10 games that Knight played in, we have more players that didn't play for us last year, than have (7-6).

So, my argument is:

- More 'new' players than 'Sun veterans' since last year
- More young players than old
- A GM and HC with just 2 years under their belt
- 3 most current, prior seasons of vastly different W-L records
- Addition of two 'All-Star-ish' player additions (Chandler/Knight)
- 3 of 5 of a true treadmilling team, the Nuggets, have the same starters they did 3 years ago (and would've been 4 if not for 2 DUIs by Lawson)--The Suns? Just 1, and I'd argue that Warren will overtake Tucker by season's end, if not sooner.

I'm NOT saying the Suns are a true contender as we sit, but I do feel we will be by the end of this season, we'll be in playoff contention.

[Frank Lee]

Fair enough Nav....To tread or not to tread.... that is the question. we'll see. So much depends on the meshing of the backcourt and whether a couple of guys can get their crap together and play ball. I'm not a doomer gloomer.... I just see us anywhere from 7-12 in the west.

And no free passes for the FO. McDuh is on probation for the fiasco last yr.
I do acknowledge some of the off court shenanigans were not his fault, but ultimately, its his responsibility to address them. (and somehow do it without Gasol or Ibaka )

[NavLDO]

Fair enough Nav....To tread or not to tread.... that is the question. we'll see. So much depends on the meshing of the backcourt and whether a couple of guys can get their crap together and play ball. I'm not a doomer gloomer.... I just see us anywhere from 7-12 in the west.

And no free passes for the FO. McDuh is on probation for the fiasco last yr.
I do acknowledge some of the off court shenanigans were not his fault, but ultimately, its his responsibility to address them. (and somehow do it without Gasol or Ibaka )

Now there, see? We CAN agree on something, Frank! I honestly do feel we can be good enough this season to get the 7th or 8th seed, and no, I won't view that as 'treading', even though I know many will. I do wonder, though, had we made the playoffs as the 8th seed in '14, would this thread have ever been made?

And as far as McD being on notice? I'm personally not there yet, and doubt I will be for at least 2 more seasons. I think he did the best he could with the situation handed him. And unfortunately, the Dragic trade started a snowball effect, which put him in the position where he didn't have the upper hand, causing the lopsided Knight trade. Remember, at that time, we were positioned as the 8th seed, I believe, and he was doing what ever he could to attempt to keep us there--at least that's how I viewed it. But I am glad that McD is not one to sit on I hands and say 'oh well'--he's definitely a 'wheeler and dealer', which I like.

[Phystic]

[/b] -- but, my argument is, are your chances GOOD that you'll get an All-Star player in the top 10--No, they aren't. I believe you are missing my point. It's not about pre-determined odds, it's about odds in the general sense, and historically, while your chances are better in the top 10 than outside the top 10, doesn't make your odds of getting an All-Star good--predetermined or not. So pretend you are Sarver, McDonough, Horny...do you want to 'stink up the joint' for a couple of years in HOPES you MIGHT get an All-Star?

Overall, I don't think we are in disagreement, and I think you nailed it on the head--what is the definition of a treadmill team? I'd argue going from 25 wins to 48 wins in one season is NOT treadmilling, REGARDLESS of playoff position. And the top 2 Centers being Chandler and Len is MUCH better than Plumlee and Len, correct? So how is the signing of Chandler a 'treadmill' move? Because he's 32? So what, he's 'miles' better than Plumlee (see what I did there? ). And a 3rd year Len is also better than a 2nd year Len, more than likely. And were we to sign LMA, would that be treamilling? Nope, more than half of those that voted yes would've likely voted no JUST because there is an assumption that LMA would have a bigger impact on our playoff chances than Tyson does.

So, please, someone define what treadmilling is, because my definition is vastly different from others, I believe. People keep brining up the last 5 years of a playoff drought as proof. Then tell me, what was our roster 5 years ago--who was our GM and HC? Are they largely the same? No?? Than how is this treadmilling?

I prefer the term Star to All-Star. All-Star means nothing in that it's a fan vote and not necessarily deserved/earned and plenty of great players are left off each year. If you go by star/impact player the return on a top 10 pick definitely improves. But of course the draft is not a sure thing. But this is professional sports, nothing is a sure thing. When you look around and see how teams are rebuilding the majority that make it work is because of the draft. Very few teams are able to rebuild and be competitive without getting some good draft picks. Oddly enough, the Suns are one of the few teams in the league that haven't really bottomed out. Outside of the Len pick we haven't had a high pick in quite a few years.

And I'm not saying purposely tank. I'm saying allow our youth to develop. If that results in wins that no arguments at all. But I see no purpose in signing veterans to play infront of the players we are claiming are our future. I'm very curious to see how are rotation pans out. If some combination of Goodwin/Booker/Warren/Len aren't getting consistently high minutes then there is something very wrong.

As for treadmill, I was referring to the past two years. That's why I've said we are lining ourselves up to be a treadmill team. We aren't making moves to actually progress instead we are making moves that are basically keeping us where we are at. Chandler is a great player, though overpaid, but at best his addition is just keeping pace with the other teams that are 7th-11th seed. Not actually improving.

How can you possibly use us failing to sign LMA as proof we aren't treadmilling? I in no way am saying that our Front Office's goal is to treadmill. I'm saying we are becoming a treadmill team. They have tried to make moves, but failed each time. Which I don't hold against them, but it also doesn't mean it's not causing us to be on that every popular treadmill. I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Chandler/Len being better than Len/Plumlee. I mean given what we saw after the trades last year couldn't you claim Dragic is better than Knight? That losing Green will hurt our perimeter shooting? That our young guys getting a bigger role will hurt our consistentcy on the wings? Again you are focusing on the wrong things. My saying we are becoming(becoming being key here) a treadmill teams isn't because of one certain move or nonmove. It's the fact that we are not making real strides to move up the ranks. We keep having to make moves to stay with the pack, which is a pack we should not be fighting to stay in. Do you honestly believe us signing Chandler will boost us up the ranks? Like I said earlier with Portland out that would put us 9th(based on last seasons standings). Do you see us moving much higher this season? Warriors, Rockets, Clippers, Spurs, Thunder, Grizzlies,Mavericks and Pelicans are left ahead of us. Pelicans and Mavericks are the only two I see us realistically being competitive in the standings with(barring major injuries to the other teams). And that's debatable. That's how I look at the treadmill argument.

[Phystic]

Jesus, you come off super aggressive. -- Sorry, where you see 'aggressive', I see 'passionate'--apologize that I came off that way!

You didn't say top 4, but others have, so, sorry again. I'm not saying that you said any of those things--just those are the arguments I'm seeing about treadmilling. And again, didn't mean to come off as aggressive, it's just frustrating to keep reading these posts about us being 'mediocre' and 'drafting 13th/14th--and not just in this thread, in a lot of others, when fans refuse to see that the last 3 years have been vastly different--we went from 'terribad' to 'good' to 'mediocre'--yet the argument for treadmilling is "we're mediocre and have drafted late lotto 4 of the past 5 years, etc.", without actually looking at the overall scenario.

Hey, no worries man. Sorry if I came off pissy, I wasn't .

I understand the frustration, the last 2 years weren't really that different. We were an 8th seed and then a 10th seed(because of injuries/trades), But same basic problem, end of the lottery. Which I think is what most people are trying to say. Either be a competitive playoff team, or truly bottom out for once and try to get the piece to build around. In today's league, it just makes more sense to try and draft your star than steal someone elses. I think our fans worry that we aren't really doing anything. We make attempts and big stars and seem kind of in the hunt but it doesn't pan out. And it's frustrating to constantly hear "gaining assets" from your front office but not really doing much with them. We as a fanbase are fairly fair weather(not on this site but in Phoenix) and we aren't used to dealing with this type of situation.

Honestly I'm not sure we were necessarily 'good' that year. I think we played hard, had a lot of passion and fun as a team and really just fought. But I think had we made the playoffs we would have gotten beat fairly easily. Now, with that said, making the playoffs(even getting where we did) would have been a huge win in and of itself.

[Phystic]

Fair enough Nav....To tread or not to tread.... that is the question. we'll see. So much depends on the meshing of the backcourt and whether a couple of guys can get their crap together and play ball. I'm not a doomer gloomer.... I just see us anywhere from 7-12 in the west.

And no free passes for the FO. McDuh is on probation for the fiasco last yr.
I do acknowledge some of the off court shenanigans were not his fault, but ultimately, its his responsibility to address them. (and somehow do it without Gasol or Ibaka )

Out of curiosity what moves are you blaming on McD? I can understand trading the Lakers pick being one of them. But the Dragic trade was actually surprisingly good. I don't put that on him, unless he was the one that order Coach to take the ball out of Dragic's hands. Otherwise that it solely on Hornacek. Dragic wanted to be here, he just didn't want to be a spot up sideshow, which is fair. And given Dragic's **** attitude and him blasting us in the Media, McD got a solid return for him. Those Heat picks, though far int he future, could really be valuable given Wade and Bosh's health and age.

I honestly feel like McD was going to dump Thomas at the deadline and go back to Bledsoe Dragic, but Dragic just wasn't willing to trust our front office. Which is his prerogative, but would hardly blame that on McD.

[NTB]

NavLDO I love you <3 I think I And 1d your all posts this week. I agree with what you are trying to say completely. I have high hopes as well.

[NavLDO]

NavLDO I love you <3 I think I And 1d your all posts this week. I agree with what you are trying to say completely. I have high hopes as well.

There's one back at ya, NTB!!

I may be a bit 'over-the-top' in my optimism, but I just feel that McD is doing everything he can to keep us competitive, and the more we have guys like LMA strongly consider signing with us, and getting a guy like Chandler and Knight to sign, I see a bright future. I look at the Tyson and Knight signings as near-star players, which is the highest caliber of players we've signed in a few years, so add that to the 'almost' LMA signing, and I believe more and more FAs will look to PHX in the future. I hate clichés, but in this case, it fits...'Rome wasn't built in a day'--we need to be patient as fans, is all I'm really saying, and I really do not see how anyone can think this is a treadmill team with the sheer amount of signings and turnover we've had over the past 2 years. McD is trying different things out to see how best to build this team. That is not 'treadmilling'--which to me is when an organization seems content with where they are and makes lateral move after lateral move, and never reaching for that brass ring, which McD certainly has tried with his attempts at LBJ, Love, and LMA.

And one more thing. Chandler was an astute signing. Len had absolutely NO ONE to mentor him as a Center. Fans keep looking at it as Tyson stealing Len's minutes. True, Len's mpg may suffer a bit, but I'd rather have Len get fewer minutes, and have some mentorship, than more minutes, and be left to figure it all out on his own. And with Len's injury history, would it be so terrible if he averaged 20 mpg and be healthy for a couple of years? I don't, personally. Having two competent, no, scratch that, two GOOD Centers is a nice luxury to have--sorry, but Wright was a good backup, but not to the level of Chandler.

[Revived]

To a certain degree, yes. I think this season is our best chance to get that label off us with a good top pick and hopefully clearing the roster of veterans that don't have much of a role on a rebuilding team.

[saintEscaton]

We never were one. Everything is going accordingly as planned. The whole "treadmill" thing is a non-starter because tanking isn't the only way out

[ATTL]

Offseason optimism.

[rsavaj]

Honestly, we've been on the treadmill ever since we cut Yuta Tabuse

I stand by my statement.

[saintEscaton]

Time for ya'll to eat crow

[bwgood77]

Pretty much every team in the NBA is a treadmill team. Depending on their level of talent, they run in place for a number of years and then fall off or speed up on occasion.

Like I said before, we went from a 70 year old guy from 20 year old guys running on the tread mill. Those guys lack the wisdom, and that finally should allow a high pick. Of course this doesn't mean a guy can come in an instantly put us in the playoffs. No matter who we draft, we still probably have a few bad years ahead of us...if we can get Jones and he pans out, and a high pick, we should be competitive and maybe get into the playoffs in a couple years, but our youth at that point, if the draft picks are right, should sustain us. Hopefully we nail them.

[Revived]

Honestly, we've been on the treadmill ever since we cut Yuta Tabuse

I stand by my statement.

Lol look how loud the crowd and these announcers were for him

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d1TMsAmdD6g

[NavLDO]

Time for ya'll to eat crow

I'm confused. Who's supposed to be eating crow, as it appears, we are in option c.; if you feel those of us who were optimistic and said we weren't treadmilling were wrong, well, yes, yes we were. But I'd contend that those that said we WERE treadmilling are wrong as well, if you feel we'll end up with a record after 82 games that is of equal winning percentage, because that will put us at 29-53, and we currently sit with the 5th worst record, so we'd be most likely drafting between positions 4 and 7, right? So that puts us in 'tank' mode, which is hardly 'treadmilling', right? If we were 17-17 right now, you'd have a better argument for 'eating crow', but right now? At 12-22? Not so much. There's no such thing as being 'more wrong'--just 'right' or 'wrong', and right now, BOTH sides are wrong.