SF88 wrote:AtheJ415 wrote:SF88 wrote:Like I said befor, Knight is arguably the king of empty stats in the NBA right now. I honestly don't care about his numbers because of that. You have to actually watch him play other than read the box scores to realize that he is not as good as numbers indicate. He's a wanna be PG who doesn't make anyone around him better, takes horrible contested jumpers, and is a liability defensively against any half decent PG.
Curry was a star, it was just a matter of if he could stay healthy. I think everyone knew he would be a star if he could find a way to stay healthy. Westbrook was a wild card but always showed promise and signs of becoming a special, special player. And oh yea Westbrook was an all star and an established superstar when he was 24 years old btw. Harden was a franchise player even with OKC that's why he wanted out to make his name and money elsewhere plus why Morey gave up most of his assets to acquire him and finally give Houston a player to build around. He was a 6MOY before he even came to Houston. Sure their fans may be hating on Harden for their struggles this season but I guarantee they would all take Hardem over Knight 10/10. And Harden at Knight's age was already an established superstar as well.
Paragraph 1 is what Houston fans say about Harden today.
Paragraph 2 just isn't true basically across the board. It's one of those re-writings of player value that occur, such as the idea that Klay Thompson was always a great defender. Curry was not always a star. He went I believe 8th in his draft class because he was not seen that way by every team ahead of him, and nobody traded up for him because they didn't see him as worth trading up for except for notably us (the Suns), then played solid hoops but nothing special for 4 years, and in fact every advanced stat of his is double over the last 3 years compared to what it was 4 years ago pretty much across the board. He had big jumps at age 25 and age 27.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryst01.htmlWestbrook suffered the same criticisms by Thunder and NBA fans regarding his IQ, passing, and ability to be the lead guy. Many didn't even see him as an ideal #2 for Durant. People called him an empty stat guy too, who sucked in crunch time and wasn't smart enough to run the offense and give Durant the ball. He was called selfish. Those criticisms existed, whether he was an all-star or not.
Harden was 100% NOT seen as a franchise player at the time of that trade. 6th man of the year does not make you a franchise player. Markieff Morris nearly won 6th man of the year at age 24 for god's sake. I saw even experts claim OKC won the trade, despite myself not agreeing, which does not happen when you trade that little for a guaranteed franchise superstar, and Houston did not give up all its assets to get him. They gave up Jeremy Lamb, Kevin Martin, and a 1st. The Thunder, who see James all the time, did not give him that money because they did not believe he was going to be that good. If he was seen as that good, you'd have seen him traded for more because other teams would be making better offers. He was traded for that because Houston was one of the few that was happy to give up a lot to take a chance on a guy who was demanding a max contract at a 6th man. It was a gamble.
Curry was setting shootingrecords even when he was on his rookie contract (prior to him "breaking out"). I don't know about you but I think everyone knew this kid would be at least an All star caliber player if he could just stay healthy. His ankles were the only thing stopping him. And a top 7 pick is nothing to laugh at. Plus many expected him to go higher in the draft by David Kahn explicably screwed up and took the likes of Jonny Flynn over him because Kahn is an idiot. Everyone knew Curry should have went top 5 at worst that's why even our trade for the pick didn't work because Golden State wasn't expecting Curry to even last to them when they agreed to trade us the pick for Amare in the first place.
People questioned Westbrook's fit with Durant because Durant was the better player and more efficient so people thought Durant should get more shots. No one questioned his talent other than your usual basketball trolls. Many including myself thought Westbrook was a #1 and that he should go elsewhere because playing with Durant isn't good for neither him nor Durant. However Westbrook has since adjusted his game to fit better with KD.
No, not just winning 6MOY but the way he played. He was decently efficient, great at drawing fouls and could facilitate very well. Maybe it was just you but I think most people found him as a franchise player and that's why Morey whose arguably the most into analytics and stuff jumped at the chance to acquire him.
I honestly can't believe I'm having this conversation. I wish this conversation could be held on the General Board. We're comparing Brandon freaking Knight to players who have been MVP candidates. No, never in his life is Brandon Knight's name ever going to be on an MVP ballot. And no, I personally doubt he ever becomes a franchise player with the type of extremely low Shaqtin A Fool type basketball IQ he has.
We're not comparing Knight to those. Not really. At no point have we compared their games. We're comparing whether a 24 year old can grow into something more. Since you won't discuss stats because you see all of his as empty, we simply can't make that comparison. And another difference is, if we were doing a real comparison, we'd be comparing guys from teams where they had more talent around them to Knight's scenario thus far in the league, which isn't really apples to apples.
Instead, we're discussing those other players' histories. If Curry was that good, then teams trade with Kahn the idiot to get him. He wasn't seen as that. Curry was always a great shooter. People questioned whether he could become more that that, along with his ceiling as a non-elite athlete. His numbers were good but not elite until 25, and then they became MVP level at 27, and now he's at all-time great. If GS saw this coming, he gets a higher salary, if sneaker execs saw this coming he gets a bigger deal earlier, hell if fans did he gets voted to more all star games like Kobe did out of high school.
Westbrook got the same criticisms you all levy on Knight--being stupid, low IQ, too selfish, not a team player, doesn't play "winning" basketball, fails to execute in the clutch, etc.. Point being, that perception can change. I understand that you thought he was a 1, but that was far from a universally accepted belief, even though I think everybody believed in his athletic potential--they all just questioned his mental potential.
Harden was so far from a sure thing. Many teams can and would have beaten that offer if they knew he could become what he is now, if OKC still wanted to trade him. Harden was a guy who had a lot of success playing off of 2 damn good players including an MVP candidate, who still couldn't crack the starting lineup over Thabo Sefolosha, and who had never carried an offense as anything higher than a 3rd offensive player. He was a promising young offensive player who few teams were willing to max out. That's why Houston got him for so little--because they were one of the only teams willing to max him out. Nobody else wanted to trade a lot for the right to pay Harden a max salary at that time. It was far from just me. It was damn near every GM in the NBA. Just ask yourself, if everyone saw him as a franchise player, then why not beat Houston's offer? Nearly every team had a young player of some kind better than Jeremy Lamb, and they could've thrown in more + 3 firsts, which Harden is easily worth today. Yet, nobody did.
), and possibly New Orleans due to a terrible GM. So about middle of the pack, and I could make an argument for more including the Bucks, Hawks, Sixers, Pacers, and Rockets.
