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Game 40: Phoenix Suns (13-26) @ Indiana Pacers (21-16)

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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (13-26) @ Indiana Pacers (21-16) 

Post#141 » by jcsunsfan » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:16 pm

rsavaj wrote:I like that Archie's improving but the areas that he needs to improve(mainly his jumper) are all fixable with a lot of practice; it's his 3rd year and his shot is more broken than ever. That doesn't inspire much confidence.


Knight is much more fixable than Archie. Knight has all the skills. All he has to do is substitute passes for long twos and he is good. Archie has to develop a skill. Some people just can't shoot.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (13-26) @ Indiana Pacers (21-16) 

Post#142 » by AtheJ415 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:51 pm

jcsunsfan wrote:
rsavaj wrote:I like that Archie's improving but the areas that he needs to improve(mainly his jumper) are all fixable with a lot of practice; it's his 3rd year and his shot is more broken than ever. That doesn't inspire much confidence.


Knight is much more fixable than Archie. Knight has all the skills. All he has to do is substitute passes for long twos and he is good. Archie has to develop a skill. Some people just can't shoot.


I'd agree Knight is more fixable, but he's also drastically better. I mean, both players shouldn't be comparable to begin with. Knight's issues are just understanding what a good shot is and buying in defensively. They're mental. How quickly he fixes them is up to him and a coach being able to get through to him. I think that could happen fairly reasonably in the next couple of years.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (13-26) @ Indiana Pacers (21-16) 

Post#143 » by AtheJ415 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:53 pm

RunDogGun wrote:
Qwigglez wrote:[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdx98CyCnP4[/youtube]

Check out Booker on the play at the 35 second mark. Chandler sets the screen, Booker has the ball and in a split second looks back at his man to verify he has plenty of space to pull off a jumper, he makes up his mind to pull instead of hitting Chandler on the roll, making sure Chandler's man wasn't denying the jumper either. It's a great play that I didn't think a 19 year old rookie would be able to make it look so easy. The game seems like it already slowed down for Booker.

What's great about that was the use of screens by Booker and the team. That was the Jeff Hornacek moves and use of screens I thought Jeff would introduce. Glad to see one of our guards embrassing it.



A lot more plays being run with Booker coming off screens at the top of the key or off the elbow, which is good.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (13-26) @ Indiana Pacers (21-16) 

Post#144 » by AtheJ415 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:01 pm

Frank Lee wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:Here is the problem. The vets don't like it when their minutes are reduced for tanking purposes. It impacts their career stats.

I think you are going to see weird rotations like this. Young players get lots of minutes followed by games where vets get lots of minutes. There will be a lot of dnp's because of nagging injuries and the flu and the like. It will basically be big games followed by rest games.


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Well, then they should play better, because on the season the #1 reason we're losing games aside from Bledsoe's injury is the play of the vets. The youngsters (Booker, Warren, Len), are drastically outplaying the vets in almost every meaningful metric.

The truth is, the more minutes the vets receive, the more successful the tank is.


Define Vet ? 3 yrs in the league ? 26 yrs old ? what is it... will Booker be a vet when he is 24 ? But Knight can't be one till he's 26 ? Is Knight one now ?

This team has spiraled, and I don't think there is one specific thing that spins the top. Multiple new players, poor system (coach), bad PG play (yes, I said it...stats be damned) nagging injuries, malcontent player(s?), .... its a toxic brew.


I mean our 35 year old center, our 32 year old backup PG/starting SG, our 31 year old SF, and our 26 (maybe 27) year old angry. The first 3 are much worse than the guys they start over across the board on overall advanced metrics. Tucker is the better defender over Warren, but his D is drastically outweighed by his awful O in the advanced numbers. Price is a negative player across the board despite some people's insistence that he is a great defender, and worse than Knight, Booker, Bledsoe (basically all our 1-2 guards). Chandler is the worst defender, and arguably worst player, on the team not named Markieff. Len just destroys him statistically.

Then you have Markieff, who magically continues to see minutes over Leuer and Tele despite not doing anything better than either of them. He's a chucking, fouling, turnover machine shooting horribly, and I am not one who believe the front office is forcing Hornacek to play this dude. Not as much as he has this year.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (13-26) @ Indiana Pacers (21-16) 

Post#145 » by RaisingArizona » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:12 pm

Archie needs to hire EJ to coach him on how to shoot. Very sad when a player has one glaring weakness and they don't improve it.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (13-26) @ Indiana Pacers (21-16) 

Post#146 » by thamadkant » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:37 pm

Shooting will come. Especially when the GM sends him (Goodwin) to a proper coach, again I'll sight Draymond Green, Butler, Leonard as players who are "good" shooters now from experience. Miles better than when they first arrived.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (13-26) @ Indiana Pacers (21-16) 

Post#147 » by thamadkant » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:39 pm

jcsunsfan wrote:
rsavaj wrote:I like that Archie's improving but the areas that he needs to improve(mainly his jumper) are all fixable with a lot of practice; it's his 3rd year and his shot is more broken than ever. That doesn't inspire much confidence.


Knight is much more fixable than Archie. Knight has all the skills. All he has to do is substitute passes for long twos and he is good. Archie has to develop a skill. Some people just can't shoot.



Goodwin's advantage over Knight is his athleticism and length in the defensive end. His potential to cove PG, SG and SFs.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (13-26) @ Indiana Pacers (21-16) 

Post#148 » by thamadkant » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:41 pm

And again.. Goodwin's 1 million a year salary. I just dont understand the hate and to push him out.

And he isnt 27 already or something that improvement is very limited moving forward.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (13-26) @ Indiana Pacers (21-16) 

Post#149 » by rsavaj » Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:50 am

Not hating on Goodwin at all; he does have an NBA-level skill, which is slashing. But his shooting is statistically worse than his rookie year. I don't know if he's not putting in the time in practice or what, but there's no reason for him to be shooting WORSE after 2.5 years in the league.

Look at Warren; dude worked hard on his trey and now he's added a competent 3 pointer. That's evidence of a lot of hard work and commitment. If Archie's working on his shot, it sure as hell isn't showing.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (13-26) @ Indiana Pacers (21-16) 

Post#150 » by bwgood77 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:00 am

1UPZ wrote:Shooting will come. Especially when the GM sends him (Goodwin) to a proper coach, again I'll sight Draymond Green, Butler, Leonard as players who are "good" shooters now from experience. Miles better than when they first arrived.


Hornacek was a shooting coach in Utah..fixed Kyle Korver's shot. He's not doing so bad. Warren's shot looks pretty good. Goodwin has another year but I imagine we may move him because I doubt we will want to invest in him for a second contract. He's getting his chance though, so we'll see.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (13-26) @ Indiana Pacers (21-16) 

Post#151 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:16 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
1UPZ wrote:Shooting will come. Especially when the GM sends him (Goodwin) to a proper coach, again I'll sight Draymond Green, Butler, Leonard as players who are "good" shooters now from experience. Miles better than when they first arrived.


Hornacek was a shooting coach in Utah..fixed Kyle Korver's shot. He's not doing so bad. Warren's shot looks pretty good. Goodwin has another year but I imagine we may move him because I doubt we will want to invest in him for a second contract. He's getting his chance though, so we'll see.


I'm skeptical - I think we might take a chance on continuing his development to the end of his contract, at which point he's RFA. We could match any offer or agree to a sign-and-trade, picking up another first rounder in the process, if he continues to develop. I don't understand why so few harmonize with my enthusiastic appraisal of his performance at Indiana. This focus on the jump shot - come on! There's more to the game than shooting! The fact that he was able to take care of the ball and run the offense was a much more important revelation. And while he wasn't perfect on defense, he did a good job - including two blocks, IIRC.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (13-26) @ Indiana Pacers (21-16) 

Post#152 » by bwgood77 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:33 pm

cosmofizzo wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
1UPZ wrote:Shooting will come. Especially when the GM sends him (Goodwin) to a proper coach, again I'll sight Draymond Green, Butler, Leonard as players who are "good" shooters now from experience. Miles better than when they first arrived.


Hornacek was a shooting coach in Utah..fixed Kyle Korver's shot. He's not doing so bad. Warren's shot looks pretty good. Goodwin has another year but I imagine we may move him because I doubt we will want to invest in him for a second contract. He's getting his chance though, so we'll see.


I'm skeptical - I think we might take a chance on continuing his development to the end of his contract, at which point he's RFA. We could match any offer or agree to a sign-and-trade, picking up another first rounder in the process, if he continues to develop. I don't understand why so few harmonize with my enthusiastic appraisal of his performance at Indiana. This focus on the jump shot - come on! There's more to the game than shooting! The fact that he was able to take care of the ball and run the offense was a much more important revelation. And while he wasn't perfect on defense, he did a good job - including two blocks, IIRC.


Oh, I mentioned earlier, I'm fine as him as a backup pg if he can pass, and then shooting isn't an issue, but he didn't show that in 31 minutes the other night with only two assists. He should get more opportunities. We sure as hell are not going to get a 1st round pick for him though. Guards who can't shoot or pass after three years in the league are not in high demand.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (13-26) @ Indiana Pacers (21-16) 

Post#153 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:48 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
cosmofizzo wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Hornacek was a shooting coach in Utah..fixed Kyle Korver's shot. He's not doing so bad. Warren's shot looks pretty good. Goodwin has another year but I imagine we may move him because I doubt we will want to invest in him for a second contract. He's getting his chance though, so we'll see.


I'm skeptical - I think we might take a chance on continuing his development to the end of his contract, at which point he's RFA. We could match any offer or agree to a sign-and-trade, picking up another first rounder in the process, if he continues to develop. I don't understand why so few harmonize with my enthusiastic appraisal of his performance at Indiana. This focus on the jump shot - come on! There's more to the game than shooting! The fact that he was able to take care of the ball and run the offense was a much more important revelation. And while he wasn't perfect on defense, he did a good job - including two blocks, IIRC.


Oh, I mentioned earlier, I'm fine as him as a backup pg if he can pass, and then shooting isn't an issue, but he didn't show that in 31 minutes the other night with only two assists. He should get more opportunities. We sure as hell are not going to get a 1st round pick for him though. Guards who can't shoot or pass after three years in the league are not in high demand.


Look - if you watched the game, you know he wasn't creating much, but you also know that he ran the offense, giving the ball up to others to make plays, without turning it over. Knight and Bled are better creators, but the problem is that they create shots not only for our guys, but the other team as well. He had more assists (4 or 5?) in 16 minutes the previous game. The most important thing was his willingness to pass, and doing so competently. It's not like the passes were bad! He just wasn't calling his own number down the court every time. :)
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (13-26) @ Indiana Pacers (21-16) 

Post#154 » by thamadkant » Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:11 pm

100 percent right cosmo.
Goodwin wasnt forcing anything.
He got the ball across without turn over and rotated the ball. He could of had 4 or 5 assists had his team mates nailed their shots.

I think backup PG or heck even if he explodes and become very confident... He could become a 6'5 Bledsoe type PG. Someone who does the damage making defenses collapse inward and kicking out to shooters.

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