How does your realistic, ideal offseason go from here?

[Damkac]

Ok I got enough.
For every anti-Bender here:
It's OK you don't like him but stop judging him by using ONLY his Euroleague stats!
Euroleague is probably the 2nd best league in the world. It's where best teams in Europe plays. 18 years old kids don't play in this league. 18 years old Ben Simmons wouldn't play much in Euroleague.
Here are all his stats:
http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/gamecent/p/pid/6058533/playerview.html
You can see he didn't played 7 games but 33 games. And he is not shooting 25% from 3 as some people think but 38%.
And don't tell me "but he plays in terrible team in terrible league". Because NCAA is great league right? Most of it's players will never be close to playing in NBA and in best case they end in good European team. Like Maccabi for example. But of course after they get a bit older.

[MrMiyagi]

Ok I got enough.
For every anti-Bender here:
It's OK you don't like him but stop judging him by using ONLY his Euroleague stats!
Euroleague is probably the 2nd best league in the world. It's where best teams in Europe plays. 18 years old kids don't play in this league. 18 years old Ben Simmons wouldn't play much in Euroleague.
Here are all his stats:
http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/gamecent/p/pid/6058533/playerview.html
You can see he didn't played 7 games but 33 games. And he is not shooting 25% from 3 as some people think but 38%.
And don't tell me "but he plays in terrible team in terrible league". Because NCAA is great league right? Most of it's players will never be close to playing in NBA and in best case they end in good European team. Like Maccabi for example. But of course after they get a bit older.

I'm not sure that's any better whatsoever... And the NCAA has produced more NBA players than anywhere else in the world. So, yeah, there's that fact.

[MrMiyagi]

24 of the 30 players in the NBA finals came from the NCAA, of the six who weren't, three came from American high schools and two more came from Brazil. You got Timofey, though.

[Damkac]

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/estimated-probability-competing-professional-athletics
In 2015 1.1% of NCAA players went to NBA. A big part of them will be out of the league in few years (and many will end in Europe).
How many times in a season NCAA player plays against future NBA player? How many times they both play the same position so they can compete agains each other?

[bwgood77]

24 of the 30 players in the NBA finals came from the NCAA, of the six who weren't, three came from American high schools and two more came from Brazil. You got Timofey, though.

Conveniently the Spurs were not there this year for this particular point you try to make. The way you feel about players from europe almost seems racist.

I guess I can see not liking them after losing so many times to teams with Ginobili, Parker, Diaw, Bellinelli, Splitter, Oberto, Nesterovic, Udrih, etc.

[MrMiyagi]

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/research/estimated-probability-competing-professional-athletics
In 2015 1.1% of NCAA players went to NBA. A big part of them will be out of the league in few years (and many will end in Europe).
How many times in a season NCAA player plays against future NBA player? How many times they both play the same position so they can compete agains each other?

1. Those are for the whole NCAA, not Division 1. Most NBA players come from D1 schools, and the numbers on those are "significantly better" (I mean, if you consider those Bender numbers to be "significantly better", than this should be too)

We estimate that 3.8% of draft-eligible Division I players were chosen in the 2015 NBA draft (46 / 1,207). However, in total, 32% of draft-eligible Division I players competed professionally (NBA, D-League, or internationally) in their first year after leaving college (calculated as [46 + 343] / 1,207). Approximately 16% of draft-eligible players from the five Division I conferences with autonomous governance (ACC, Big Ten, Big 12, Pac-12 and SEC) were drafted by the NBA in 2015 (36 / 228), while 57% played professionally somewhere in their first year post-college (calculated as [36 + 94] / 228).

So the power 5 conferences get 16% of their players LAST SEASON going to the pros in the NBA, which isn't including future NBA players on those rosters, like anyone who's not a freshman entering the draft this season, or who were freshman last season and will go pro in the next two years.
2. I'm willing to bet it's still a significantly higher rate than Euroleague. What percentage of Euroleaguers make it into the NBA? Care to run those numbers?

EDIT: That quote is from your link, so you might want to check what the numbers represent before shooting them off.

[MrMiyagi]

24 of the 30 players in the NBA finals came from the NCAA, of the six who weren't, three came from American high schools and two more came from Brazil. You got Timofey, though.

Conveniently the Spurs were not there this year for this particular point you try to make. The way you feel about players from europe almost seems racist.

I guess I can see not liking them after losing so many times to teams with Ginobili, Parker, Diaw, Bellinelli, Splitter, Oberto, Nesterovic, Udrih, etc.

This is a confluence of things bubbling together in the same pot.
1. When guys like Ekpe Udoh and Quincy Miller are top 20 in the Euroleague PIR, it makes you wonder how good that league is, given their less than stellar collegiate and NBA careers (sorry to pick on Baylor, but it seems to be their time)
2. Not getting playing time anywhere is a big red flag, let alone a stud who can shoot, pass, rebound, and defend, is 7'1 with guard-like mobility. Especially when the team isn't that great in its own league. If Ben Simmons didn't start at LSU, wouldn't there be these ?????
3. I still haven't gotten the info on where and when he "dominated his age group" because it sure as **** didn't happen internationally in the big FIBA U-18(19?)/U-16 competitions.
4. There is very little tape on this guy available to me. Yes, that seems selfish, but I trust being able to watch someone over scouting reports. I can go, right now and watch full games of most NCAA players. Even in the games Bender does play, it's too short to really tell much. Like I said, he can run the floor reasonably well and his shot stroke looks fine, but damn if he's a great defender based on his brief stints on D, Denzel Valentine will be a lock for All-NBA. And if he's a great passer, Buddy Hield is our point guard of the future. And if he's a great rebounders, than Tyler Ulis is gonna set some records.
5. No one has been able to demonstrate to me why he's in the top 5 discussion when comparable intriguing, mobile, 7 footers with promising jump shots are projected late 1st/early 2nd round (Zimmerman, Qi, Maker) other than to say nonsense like "That's just the way Euroleague works!" or "Scouts LOVE him!" or "He has HUGE UPSIDE!" - **** that require absolutely no concrete evidence.
6. He's a skinny 7 footer, and skinny 7 footers scare me generally, let alone trying to take one in the top 5. Out of the 3 alternatives I've already listed, I like Zimmerman best. Wanna know why? He's the biggest.

There is just a huge double standard for this kid. He's getting by based on production in the past (a past I'm not seeing either, as stated in point 3) where he dominated his age group. Well, Valentine and Hield just dominated their age group, did they not? This just happened. A few months ago. But suddenly, that doesn't hold the same water that this kid playing against 16 year olds two years ago? Providing it actually happened, because - again - I still haven't seen proof of it.

Or how about Zimmerman, who actually played in that U-19 FIBA Worlds on a team that eviscerated the competitions while being a key contributor. Can he ride on those coattails? Let's forget what he did and didn't do at UNLV, get this guy into the top 5!

[MrMiyagi]

And notice how my gripes are specific to a top 5 player with little playing time and a body type that doesn't do well in the NBA. And it's not about him being a good prospect, but a smart choice at 4. ****, we've ridden this hype train before with NCAA players. Remember Anthony "Magic" Randolph? Perry Jones III? Quincy Miller was there too. I also didn't like Nerlens Noel and still don't really. I don't like Skal or Chriss, I didn't like Porzingis. I don't like skinny bigs and misinformation. This is a perfect storm.

[RaisingArizona]

This is the Miyagi I like.

[bwgood77]

24 of the 30 players in the NBA finals came from the NCAA, of the six who weren't, three came from American high schools and two more came from Brazil. You got Timofey, though.

Conveniently the Spurs were not there this year for this particular point you try to make. The way you feel about players from europe almost seems racist.

I guess I can see not liking them after losing so many times to teams with Ginobili, Parker, Diaw, Bellinelli, Splitter, Oberto, Nesterovic, Udrih, etc.

This is a confluence of things bubbling together in the same pot.
1. When guys like Ekpe Udoh and Quincy Miller are top 20 in the Euroleague PIR, it makes you wonder how good that league is, given their less than stellar collegiate and NBA careers (sorry to pick on Baylor, but it seems to be their time)
2. Not getting playing time anywhere is a big red flag, let alone a stud who can shoot, pass, rebound, and defend, is 7'1 with guard-like mobility. Especially when the team isn't that great in its own league. If Ben Simmons didn't start at LSU, wouldn't there be these ?????
3. I still haven't gotten the info on where and when he "dominated his age group" because it sure as **** didn't happen internationally in the big FIBA U-18(19?)/U-16 competitions.
4. There is very little tape on this guy available to me. Yes, that seems selfish, but I trust being able to watch someone over scouting reports. I can go, right now and watch full games of most NCAA players. Even in the games Bender does play, it's too short to really tell much. Like I said, he can run the floor reasonably well and his shot stroke looks fine, but damn if he's a great defender based on his brief stints on D, Denzel Valentine will be a lock for All-NBA. And if he's a great passer, Buddy Hield is our point guard of the future. And if he's a great rebounders, than Tyler Ulis is gonna set some records.
5. No one has been able to demonstrate to me why he's in the top 5 discussion when comparable intriguing, mobile, 7 footers with promising jump shots are projected late 1st/early 2nd round (Zimmerman, Qi, Maker) other than to say nonsense like "That's just the way Euroleague works!" or "Scouts LOVE him!" or "He has HUGE UPSIDE!" - **** that require absolutely no concrete evidence.
6. He's a skinny 7 footer, and skinny 7 footers scare me generally, let alone trying to take one in the top 5. Out of the 3 alternatives I've already listed, I like Zimmerman best. Wanna know why? He's the biggest.

There is just a huge double standard for this kid. He's getting by based on production in the past (a past I'm not seeing either, as stated in point 3) where he dominated his age group. Well, Valentine and Hield just dominated their age group, did they not? This just happened. A few months ago. But suddenly, that doesn't hold the same water that this kid playing against 16 year olds two years ago? Providing it actually happened, because - again - I still haven't seen proof of it.

Or how about Zimmerman, who actually played in that U-19 FIBA Worlds on a team that eviscerated the competitions while being a key contributor. Can he ride on those coattails? Let's forget what he did and didn't do at UNLV, get this guy into the top 5!

Denzel Valentine all nba? If that was all but a guarantee he'd be a guaranteed top 3 pick or a #1 pick. He didn't dominate his age group. He played well against guys mostly younger than him and then lost in the first round of the NCAA tourney to Middle Tennessee State.

I think Denzel will be good but of course there is a lot more tape and evidence of him when he's four years older and had four years of collegiate play.

Bender obviously doesn't have much tape or played as much because he went pro at such a young age, similar to Jermaine O Neal, who scored 4 pts and 3 rebounds when 18. I'm not going to argue who had better stats because you know that's not the case for him.

I would be drafting Bender on potential and understand he could be a bust. I'm not saying he will be better than Denzel for sure, and admit Denzel is more of a sure thing as being able to play in this league. Bender is more of a swing for a home run type of guy as opposed to going for a single.

[darealjuice]

Wow did someone really just say Denzel Valentine will be All-NBA hahaha? That's probably one of the craziest things I've read on here.

[dremill24]

He's using a separate reference point to illustrate his point about skewed perceptions. He's not actually predicting Valentine to be /expectations. All NBA

[MrMiyagi]

He's using a separate reference point to illustrate his point about skewed perceptions. He's not actually predicting Valentine to be /expectations. All NBA

Bingo.

[bwgood77]

He's using a separate reference point to illustrate his point about skewed perceptions. He's not actually predicting Valentine to be /expectations. All NBA

Well, we only know what Bender's strengths are based on the limited footage we've seen and what scouts tell us. If you've watched his tape, it's quite evident he's a very good passer, and played pg at one time. He's already a much better passer than Hield. He is quick on the perimeter despite being tall and lanky defensively. This is on tape as well. Not sure where the rebounding part came from.

The thing is, he's young and no one has said he's guaranteed. The perceptions might be skewed for some, but based on what we've seen, and scouts report, these are his strengths. LeBron had certain strengths too, yet only dominated high schoolers. You didn't see people arguing like this against him because he hadn't played against any real competition.

[MrMiyagi]

He's using a separate reference point to illustrate his point about skewed perceptions. He's not actually predicting Valentine to be /expectations. All NBA

Well, we only know what Bender's strengths are based on the limited footage we've seen and what scouts tell us. If you've watched his tape, it's quite evident he's a very good passer, and played pg at one time. He's already a much better passer than Hield. He is quick on the perimeter despite being tall and lanky defensively. This is on tape as well. Not sure where the rebounding part came from.

The thing is, he's young and no one has said he's guaranteed. The perceptions might be skewed for some, but based on what we've seen, and scouts report, these are his strengths. LeBron had certain strengths too, yet only dominated high schoolers. You didn't see people arguing like this against him because he hadn't played against any real competition.

But he stood out like crazy, and still does. Watching Bender's tape isn't anything special. You would barely notice him on the floor if not for the tapes being specifically geared toward showing him. And there's no way in hell Lebron would've been benched his freshman season had he gone to Ohio State. Even if he would've had a coach his rookie year who didn't play rookies on principle like Euroleague supposedly does, he would've made sure he was the exception. Bender hasn't asserted himself in any way shape or form.

If he was so talented, and polished - that's the other term I hear, specifically in the Bender v. Chriss debate - why didn't he get big playing time? Why is he so quick to sit in big time international competition?

[dremill24]

I just want us to come away from the draft with Taurean Prince and Pascal Siakam. Trade for Jamychal Green, sign Dwight Powell. Keep Bledsoe, Booker, Warren. Use #4, Knight, Len, Chandler, PJ, Archie in whatever way so they can help facilitate these or other moves.

[nevetsov]

Draft Bender at 4
Draft a backup Pg at 13
Draft a project/ stash with the rest

Get Knight to come to terms with a 6Th man role, or if he's not willing, flip him for someone who is.

Re-sign Teletovic (3rd big) and Price (3Rd string)

Bledsoe, 13, Price
Booker, Knight, Goodwin
Tucker, Warren
Bender, Teletovic, Williams
Chandler, Len

Young guy at each position
Young and old vets everywhere else.

[GetYourPHX]

No way we draft a guard with the fourth pick. Sorry to rain on your parade, but no one is giving up anything for Brandon Knight, and the FO isn't going to create another guard logjam after the catastrophe a year and a half ago. The pick is Chriss or Bender.

We need to stop drafting players that aren't going to be given a chance to contribute immediately. Drafting Len 5th overall and then giving Tyson Chandler a huge contract is just bad business. Let the kid play. Drafting a guard would be doing the same thing. We have 4 functional guards on this team, there is no need for another one.

Chriss/Bender at 4
Sabonis/Ellenson/Davis/Skal at 13
Juancho at 28
Stone at 34
Resign Tele
Resign Price
Resign Budinger

That's your 2016-2017 Phoenix Suns.

[Qwigglez]

Trade #4/Knight for Okafor.
Seriously if the Sixers are shopping him, then this is possibly the best trade value they'll get. We absolutely would need to pounce on this deal and not look back. We just paired Booker up with one of the best post players in the game and he's not even 21 yet. We are set for the next 8 years at the 2/4 spot. Make this deal and figure out the rest later.