25 Best Players In Phoenix Suns Franchise History

[OGBAH]

"Socks" Perry

[RaisingArizona]

Not clicking through 25 pages

[GMATCallahan]

Callahan,

I read your reply to my post and I have to say that I think you misinterpreted some of the things I said.

I am not even a fan of Shaq on a personal level (Although his Hall of Fame speech was great) and Matrix seems like a really fun guy who was good in the locker-room everywhere he was other than his final year in Phoenix where he was complaining about a lack of recognition.

Let me debunk a lot of the false narratives that have been thrown out there...most by the local media who love Marion (Understandably so) and are trying to trash Shaq and protect Matrix' legacy. No different than what Magic Johnson did to MDA in L.A.; Magic was a Phil Jackson supporter and couldn't get over the fact that Kupchak/Buss chose MDA over him, so he bashed MDA non-stop until MDA quit.

People are always trying to defend their original position and in this case, it amazes me how Terry Porter gets a free-pass from a lot of media members even though the players have pretty much pointed their finger at him for that 2009 season.

Let me ask those critics some questions regarding these myths that exist:

- What exactly did Marion do that was so impressive in Miami? He flopped big-time with the Heat! And yet, nobody seems to want to admit it.

- He also sucked in Cleveland even more than Shaq did when he was a Cav; why do people not want to point that out?

- I mean, if Matrix really was this megastar that his supporters hyped him out to be, why did he suck so bad with the Heat? I'm not trying to say Marion was a bad player or anything, but there's no doubt his inability to create offense for himself was exposed once he left Nash/MDA.

- Keep in mind, Nash AND MDA both pushed hard to get rid of Marion. They were sick of his attitude in the locker-room over not getting attention and a super-max deal.

- Guess what? Even big-spending Mark Cuban did not give him a max deal.

- Before and after the Mavs won the title in 2011, Marion was a non-factor from 2008 until his retirement. He was a key member of that team, but they mainly won because of Dirk and LeBron choking in the Finals.

- 2008= Gets traded to Miami, gets promoted as "Dwyane's Scottie Pippen" only to be traded a year later and he ripped Miami on his way out, calling their system "boring", saying "basketball is supposed to be fun and I was never part of a team that was losing on purpose like that" in regards to their 15-win season.

- His only positive contribution to the Heat was in the locker-room. I remember reading that his team-mates adored him. (Marion is a great guy)

- He was pretty good in Toronto, but they chose Hedo over him!

- His first year in Dallas, they were upset by the # 7 seed Spurs, the same team who made him a non-factor in the 2005 playoffs against the Suns.

- The year they DID win the whole thing, they were just 2-8 WITHOUT Dirk.

- The year after, they were swept in the first round as defending champions.

- The year after that one, they missed the playoffs.

- Then, he disappeared against the Spurs AGAIN in 2014 first round.

- Finally, he signs with Cleveland and was on the bench the entire year.

Now, let me address some more false narratives.

- "It's impossible to run with a slow center like Shaq." Really? Then why did the Suns make KT a big part of their team in 2007? How come the Warriors ran with Bogut these last two years? Why did the team lead the league in scoring under MDA and Gentry WITH Shaq? Answer? Terry Porter's philosophy.

Shaq NEVER told Kerr and Sarver to choose Terry; Porter is a decent coach who, I think, will do well at University of Portland coaching younger players other than coaching change-resistant veterans on the 2009 Suns who didn't want to listen to him.

That decision was 100% Kerr's fault. Yet, somehow, the media lets Porter off the hook so they point their fingers at Shaquille.

- "Shaq clogged up the lane for Amare." Then how the hell did Amare put up 29/10 on 56% shooting, finish # 3 in PER during Shaq's first year in Phoenix under MDA? That's hurting STAT's game? How did he average 32 PPG after Porter's dismissal before he was lost for the season?

That is just the Matrix supporters doing whatever they can do trash Shaq by throwing out anything that's out there and hoping it will stick. I think they have brainwashed a lot of people.

And when will people hold Nash accountable for some things?

- He never made an effort to listen to Porter

- He caused the Lakers to hire MDA over the G.O.A.T. coach

- He sucked in LA even when he did play

- The Mavericks DID NOT MISS HIM ONE BIT once he left even though he was replaced by Devin Harris; who is a very mediocre PG.

Shaq's critics like to harp on the "The 2010 team made the WCF because he was gone and the 2009 season was all his fault!"

Then explain why ALL the players (Those whose opinions really matter) pointed their fingers at Porter? Why did half the NBA want Shaq that year? Did Shaq hire Porter? Hell No. Did he cause Amare/Diaw to be gone for 29 games? No.

The 2010 team's record after 53 games was 31-22. 2009? 30-23. ONE GAME BETTER! And it was right at that exact time where STAT was lost for the season.

He was the MVP of the 2010 team regular season and let's be real here...do you REALLY think the 2009 team would not have won just ONE more game with Amare missing those last 29 and not having Diaw?

And using the addition by subtraction argument, HOW THE HELL did Nash win the 2005 MVP when his former team didn't miss him?

What have the Suns accomplished since STAT left? NOTHING. Sad, but 100% true.

It's just wrong and unfair to keep pinning EVERYTHING on Shaquille when he had very little to do with the 2009 season. I don't think they would have won the whole thing, but they would NOT have missed the playoffs either with STAT/Gentry for the full season.

Yet, the media, Shaq's critics, Marion's supporters will just blame him for everything to protect Matrix.

Was Matrix great? Yes. I actually considered him the most under-rated player in the NBA for a long time. Have he and Nash been over-protected by the media? Absolutely.

Nobody calls out Nash on his pathetic Lakers stint and nobody calls out Marion for his dreadful play in Miami and Cleveland.

By the way, Robin Lopez (Who doesn't have the 3 point range of Frye and Marion), was the unsung hero of the 2010 team. Amare actually played his best ball ever in Phoenix WITH Shaq/Lopez next to him.

There is clearly a bit of an agenda against Shaquille, no doubt about it.

I think, in hindsight, he was overly criticized for the 2009 season just like I feel MDA was overly criticized in LA. Both got, and continue to get, raw deals from their critics.

End of rant.

I do not necessarily disagree with most of these points, and I am not someone who views the Marion/O'Neal trade as a disaster or even a poor idea. I will point out that the Suns mainly used Kurt Thomas off the bench in 2007, and while one can certainly run with a true big man, as Phoenix proved to excellent effect in the second half of the '08-'09 season after Alvin Gentry took over, the Suns' half-court offense did not quite function optimally when Thomas and Stoudemire played together. The reason was the same one that led to D'Antoni moving Pau Gasol to the bench in Los Angeles, rather than starting him alongside Dwight Howard. Without that extra three-point shooter or perimeter player, opposing defenders could help on Nash's pick-and-rolls and rotate/recover more easily—the difference between Pau Gasol or Kurt Thomas shooting from eighteen or nineteen feet as opposed to Channing Frye or James Jones shooting from twenty-four or twenty-five feet. (Granted, Grant Hill and Boris Diaw were not true three-point shooters, but their creative skills with the ball rendered them dangerous if left alone in space outside.) I explained what this difference would mean to Laker fans right after Nash rejoined D'Antoni, but not all of them wanted to believe it:

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1192331&start=780#start_here

By the way, Lopez missed the Suns' final ten regular season contests in '09-'10, and Phoenix went 8-2 in those games. Lopez also missed all of Phoenix's first two playoff series that year, and the Suns went 8-2 in those games, too. Even when healthy, Lopez usually did not play more than half the game that year, and the presence of Channing Frye as a "small center" off the bench proved critical in balancing the floor and the rotation.

I understand your point about Stoudemire being able to thrive alongside a true center, and I agree that Shaquille O'Neal could indeed fit comfortably in the Suns' offense, contrary to what most people expected (and I had my doubts, too). Where Shaq did not fit was on defense—not in a lineup that already included Stoudemire and Nash. Of course, that reality was not O'Neal's fault so much as the circumstances at play.

I will try to go back to your post from earlier in the summer at some point, as I can address some specifics more easily there.

[Big NBA Fan]

Not clicking through 25 pages

Huh? This thread is only 3 pages.

And Callahan is absolutely right when it comes to his last post...

- Kerr/Sarver/Amin El Hassan/Paul Coro have ALL said MDA was the # 1 supporter of getting rid of Marion because he grew sick and tired of his negative attitude over his contract dispute with Sarver and Kerr and he felt the Suns needed more size to deal with Duncan and Gasol after they lost KT.

- Former GM David Griffin also said "Shawn didn't want to be on the team anymore"

- Marion had every chance to show he was worthy of a max-contract in Miami and Toronto and he failed miserably to prove it and he didn't get anywhere near a max money deal after his underwhelming 2009 season.

Basically, yes, overall, the Shaq trade failed, but a lot of it was over reasons that were out of his control and some really bad luck and bad decisions like hiring the defensive-minded, inexperienced Terry Porter to coach an offensive-minded, veteran team.

[RaisingArizona]

^ The link is a 25 page slideshow. I find it annoying when sites do that for page clicks.

[Big NBA Fan]

Now, yes, the Suns were never going to be a great defensive team with Shaq/Nash/Amare, BUT, had they played under Gentry for the full-season, the offense would have been so overwhelmingly potent that they would not have needed to be a great defensive team.

Also, had MDA listened to Kerr and hired Thibs, he could have put in a system to mask their deficiencies.

The 2011 Celtics had washed-up Shaq and other mediocre defenders like Pierce and Ray Allen and were only giving up 90 PPG using Thibs' defensive schemes.

With the right system on both ends of the court, the Shaq trade would have looked better had Thibs been on staff and had Gentry coached from the beginning.

[Big NBA Fan]

Also, remember, the Suns WERE willing to give Marion a big contract extension, just not a super-max deal and that's what caused his trade demand and also his demands for a full-max reportedly caused the KG-to-Phoenix trade to fall through.

He has nobody but himself to blame for being traded.

I think a lot of this Blame-Shaq-Game has been driven by the local media people like Gambo, Coro, etc. who are very loyal to Marion. I could be wrong, but that's what it feels like.