Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4

[bwgood77]

Agreed Frank ... right now I suspect once is probably never coming with these two. Again, history shows that high quality players progress significantly in their second year. Len was a whiff, Chriss and Bender are looking to be too. Cross our fingers that Jackson pans out but he's gonna be behind TJ Warren.

You might be the only 2 people on the planet who write players off at their respective ages. How many current stars would actually pass you all's expectations? I' guessing maybe 3 or 4. The rest would've moved for average vet role players like Rubio.

Nearly every star player passes my expectation of scoring at a decent rate by their second season. You might be the only person who just refuses to the look at the numbers. That's your problem not mine. But just to give you one more chance to look at it again here is a list of active players who have averaged at least 12 points/game in one of their first two seasons. And contrary to your beliefs, it is loaded, yes loaded, with current star players. Well, except for Chriss, Bender, and Len.

http://bkref.com/tiny/7E4oZ

There are also some damn good players on the list of players who scored below 12 ppg in their 2nd seasons. http://bkref.com/tiny/I93Ns

[LukasBMW]

1. Look how long it took Aaron Gordon to develop. The Magic almost gave up on him. As frustrating as it can be with Chriss and Bender, we need to give it time.

2. We're not getting that Bucks pick. But it's looking like Miami will land us #10-#14.

3. We should get pick 1-6 along with pick 10-14.

4. This is Booker's team. Rather then bring in star-power vets that will command huge contracts and bring huge ego's, I'd be down to sign a few "leftover" vet guys with good work ethic that just have not fit in elsewhere. Kinda like what Detroit did with Billips/Rip/Wallace and kinda like what we did with Dragic/Green.

Two new lottery picks and maybe two new veteran additions and maybe...just maybe we compete for a playoff spot.

[JMac1]

Not hard to figure out with athletes. If you are a hard worker with mental toughness, odds are you will become the best you can be. Bender is a hard worker but I don’t trust his mental toughness; just don’t see it on the court. Chriss, need I say, a mental midget, don’t know about his work ethic....Mr. Fat face. Chriss is such a pouter. JJ is so effing angry. I have watched him not get calls and purposely go get dumb frustration fouls call immediately afterwards. Love JJ fight though.

Gordon and Victor worked on their games and now appear to be very good young players. Chriss did look really good last game, but I bit that fruit before. I don’t trust him, but I’m ok with him getting time to improve.

I hate TJ’s game......yuck! Not dynamic enough for me and can’t shoot threes. I don’t like crafty guys, Monroe included.....double yuck!

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

1. Look how long it took Aaron Gordon to develop. The Magic almost gave up on him. As frustrating as it can be with Chriss and Bender, we need to give it time.

Oladipo didn't figure it out until this year -- year 5. And he came out as a sophomore. Bender and Chriss will be a couple years into their second contracts by the time they're his age.

When your plan is to draft the guy with the highest ceiling, you often end up taking really young players. And you depend on your FO to stay patient. Giving up on young guys too early is a mistake made all too frequently. I don't trust anyone on this board to maintain the proper degree of perspective on these things -- myself included.

[thamadkant]

1. Look how long it took Aaron Gordon to develop. The Magic almost gave up on him. As frustrating as it can be with Chriss and Bender, we need to give it time.

2. We're not getting that Bucks pick. But it's looking like Miami will land us #10-#14.

3. We should get pick 1-6 along with pick 10-14.

4. This is Booker's team. Rather then bring in star-power vets that will command huge contracts and bring huge ego's, I'd be down to sign a few "leftover" vet guys with good work ethic that just have not fit in elsewhere. Kinda like what Detroit did with Billips/Rip/Wallace and kinda like what we did with Dragic/Green.

Two new lottery picks and maybe two new veteran additions and maybe...just maybe we compete for a playoff spot.

Aaron Gordon has confidence though. He claimed he wants to be the best. I laughed it off too but now he's up for MIP.

Bender looks like a why 12 year old boy with his body language and demeanour.

Chriss acts like a baby... Complains every time he misses a shot as if he was fouled and he stops playing seriously... What the heck.


Needs a coach who will sit these guys down and make men out of them rather than cuddle their boy behaviours.

[Desertfox]

We don't need to trade for anyone until the off-season, then draft Ayton, sign Gordon, trade for Dragic...

Nash -> Dragic
Johnson -> Booker
Richardson -> TJ
Marion -> Gordon
Stoudamire -> Ayton

Run n gun...

With a bench of Ulis, Reed, Jackson, Bender/Chriss?, Williams/Len?

[Saberestar]

Sign Gordon...
Trade for Dragic...

Good luck with that.

[Wilber85]

1. Look how long it took Aaron Gordon to develop. The Magic almost gave up on him. As frustrating as it can be with Chriss and Bender, we need to give it time.

2. We're not getting that Bucks pick. But it's looking like Miami will land us #10-#14.

3. We should get pick 1-6 along with pick 10-14.

4. This is Booker's team. Rather then bring in star-power vets that will command huge contracts and bring huge ego's, I'd be down to sign a few "leftover" vet guys with good work ethic that just have not fit in elsewhere. Kinda like what Detroit did with Billips/Rip/Wallace and kinda like what we did with Dragic/Green.

Two new lottery picks and maybe two new veteran additions and maybe...just maybe we compete for a playoff spot.

Aaron Gordon has confidence though. He claimed he wants to be the best. I laughed it off too but now he's up for MIP.

Bender looks like a why 12 year old boy with his body language and demeanour.

Chriss acts like a baby... Complains every time he misses a shot as if he was fouled and he stops playing seriously... What the heck.


Needs a coach who will sit these guys down and make men out of them rather than cuddle their boy behaviours.

This is exactly what I was thinking! Ya'll are discrediting Gordon. What he got is a work ethic and busted his butt to improve offensively. What kept him playing in the NBA was his defensive ability, Hustle, and work ethic.

Bender I will give time, but Criss has bad body language and is always complaining !

[bwgood77]

1. Look how long it took Aaron Gordon to develop. The Magic almost gave up on him. As frustrating as it can be with Chriss and Bender, we need to give it time.

2. We're not getting that Bucks pick. But it's looking like Miami will land us #10-#14.

3. We should get pick 1-6 along with pick 10-14.

4. This is Booker's team. Rather then bring in star-power vets that will command huge contracts and bring huge ego's, I'd be down to sign a few "leftover" vet guys with good work ethic that just have not fit in elsewhere. Kinda like what Detroit did with Billips/Rip/Wallace and kinda like what we did with Dragic/Green.

Two new lottery picks and maybe two new veteran additions and maybe...just maybe we compete for a playoff spot.

Aaron Gordon has confidence though. He claimed he wants to be the best. I laughed it off too but now he's up for MIP.

Bender looks like a why 12 year old boy with his body language and demeanour.

Chriss acts like a baby... Complains every time he misses a shot as if he was fouled and he stops playing seriously... What the heck.


Needs a coach who will sit these guys down and make men out of them rather than cuddle their boy behaviours.

This is exactly what I was thinking! Ya'll are discrediting Gordon. What he got is a work ethic and busted his butt to improve offensively. What kept him playing in the NBA was his defensive ability, Hustle, and work ethic.

Bender I will give time, but Criss has bad body language and is always complaining !

Yeah, that complaining reminds me of...

[WeekapaugGroove]

The attitude stuff with chriss is confusing. On one hand he does seem to openly pout and get emotional but on the other hand by all accounts he's a pretty sharp and good dude off the court.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

[bwgood77]

The attitude stuff with chriss is confusing. On one hand he does seem to openly pout and get emotional but on the other hand by all accounts he's a pretty sharp and good dude off the court.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

I think he kind of follows Booker's lead with the pouting stuff (if you're talking about to officials). Booker pouts too. People don't mention that but he does. I think if they ever start cutting back on that more calls will start going our way.

[thamadkant]

Aaron Gordon has confidence though. He claimed he wants to be the best. I laughed it off too but now he's up for MIP.

Bender looks like a why 12 year old boy with his body language and demeanour.

Chriss acts like a baby... Complains every time he misses a shot as if he was fouled and he stops playing seriously... What the heck.


Needs a coach who will sit these guys down and make men out of them rather than cuddle their boy behaviours.

This is exactly what I was thinking! Ya'll are discrediting Gordon. What he got is a work ethic and busted his butt to improve offensively. What kept him playing in the NBA was his defensive ability, Hustle, and work ethic.

Bender I will give time, but Criss has bad body language and is always complaining !

Yeah, that complaining reminds me of...

But Duncan was intense through his post play and defense... Don't get demeanour confused with intensity

[bwgood77]

This is exactly what I was thinking! Ya'll are discrediting Gordon. What he got is a work ethic and busted his butt to improve offensively. What kept him playing in the NBA was his defensive ability, Hustle, and work ethic.

Bender I will give time, but Criss has bad body language and is always complaining !

Yeah, that complaining reminds me of...

But Duncan was intense through his post play and defense... Don't get demeanour confused with intensity

That was just in reference to pouting about calls (and was kind of a joke because they couldn't be more different). Duncan was more skilled and crafty....the kind of player some fans hate, but Duncan also came into the league as a 4 year college guy and clear cut unanimous #1 pick.

[Wilber85]

Aaron Gordon has confidence though. He claimed he wants to be the best. I laughed it off too but now he's up for MIP.

Bender looks like a why 12 year old boy with his body language and demeanour.

Chriss acts like a baby... Complains every time he misses a shot as if he was fouled and he stops playing seriously... What the heck.


Needs a coach who will sit these guys down and make men out of them rather than cuddle their boy behaviours.

This is exactly what I was thinking! Ya'll are discrediting Gordon. What he got is a work ethic and busted his butt to improve offensively. What kept him playing in the NBA was his defensive ability, Hustle, and work ethic.

Bender I will give time, but Criss has bad body language and is always complaining !

Yeah, that complaining reminds me of...

But his playing reminds me of Anthony Randolph

[AtheJ415]

You might be the only 2 people on the planet who write players off at their respective ages. How many current stars would actually pass you all's expectations? I' guessing maybe 3 or 4. The rest would've moved for average vet role players like Rubio.

Nearly every star player passes my expectation of scoring at a decent rate by their second season. You might be the only person who just refuses to the look at the numbers. That's your problem not mine. But just to give you one more chance to look at it again here is a list of active players who have averaged at least 12 points/game in one of their first two seasons. And contrary to your beliefs, it is loaded, yes loaded, with current star players. Well, except for Chriss, Bender, and Len.

http://bkref.com/tiny/7E4oZ

There are also some damn good players on the list of players who scored below 12 ppg in their 2nd seasons. http://bkref.com/tiny/I93Ns

Malcolm Brogdon, one of the pined after players by the impatient ones on this board, averaged a whopping 6, 3, and 1 in COLLEGE at the same age as Chriss / Bender.

[bigfoot]

You might be the only 2 people on the planet who write players off at their respective ages. How many current stars would actually pass you all's expectations? I' guessing maybe 3 or 4. The rest would've moved for average vet role players like Rubio.

Nearly every star player passes my expectation of scoring at a decent rate by their second season. You might be the only person who just refuses to the look at the numbers. That's your problem not mine. But just to give you one more chance to look at it again here is a list of active players who have averaged at least 12 points/game in one of their first two seasons. And contrary to your beliefs, it is loaded, yes loaded, with current star players. Well, except for Chriss, Bender, and Len.

http://bkref.com/tiny/7E4oZ

There are also some damn good players on the list of players who scored below 12 ppg in their 2nd seasons. http://bkref.com/tiny/I93Ns

Nope your search isn't quite right. It includes players that are in my list ... for example, Harden scored more than 12 in his second season but shows up on your list. Note that Harden is on the second page of my list. So let's fix this problem so we can really judge second year players. Here's the lists of active players who averaged more than 9 points/game combined in their first two seasons and less than 9.

More than 9 ... http://bkref.com/tiny/DN9yl ... 152 active players made this list
Less than 9 ... http://bkref.com/tiny/xD8Jf ... 454 active players made this list

Now the real argument is not about "good" players. We're talking about "star" players. It's not even close in terms of star players. No where near close. Only fools would try to argue there is a "good" chance of a player in the second list is going to turn into a star. There is an outside chance but it is way, way more remote than you are making it out to be.

Thank goodness Josh Jackson is in the first list and we have a chance he's going to be decent. Chriss is borderline and if he could turn this goat screw of a start to the season around he might have a chance (slim). I see no chance for Bender to be a star player.

[bigfoot]

Nearly every star player passes my expectation of scoring at a decent rate by their second season. You might be the only person who just refuses to the look at the numbers. That's your problem not mine. But just to give you one more chance to look at it again here is a list of active players who have averaged at least 12 points/game in one of their first two seasons. And contrary to your beliefs, it is loaded, yes loaded, with current star players. Well, except for Chriss, Bender, and Len.

http://bkref.com/tiny/7E4oZ

There are also some damn good players on the list of players who scored below 12 ppg in their 2nd seasons. http://bkref.com/tiny/I93Ns

Malcolm Brogdon, one of the pined after players by the impatient ones on this board, averaged a whopping 6, 3, and 1 in COLLEGE at the same age as Chriss / Bender.

Still clueless and unwilling to look at the reality of the situation. Instead you grasp at air and throw another player into the mix as opposed to truly examining what sets apart star players in their first two NBA seasons (not college players dude). Your Trump-like obfuscation does not work on me.

[bwgood77]

Nearly every star player passes my expectation of scoring at a decent rate by their second season. You might be the only person who just refuses to the look at the numbers. That's your problem not mine. But just to give you one more chance to look at it again here is a list of active players who have averaged at least 12 points/game in one of their first two seasons. And contrary to your beliefs, it is loaded, yes loaded, with current star players. Well, except for Chriss, Bender, and Len.

http://bkref.com/tiny/7E4oZ

There are also some damn good players on the list of players who scored below 12 ppg in their 2nd seasons. http://bkref.com/tiny/I93Ns

Nope your search isn't quite right. It includes players that are in my list ... for example, Harden scored more than 12 in his second season but shows up on your list. Note that Harden is on the second page of my list. So let's fix this problem so we can really judge second year players. Here's the lists of active players who averaged more than 9 points/game combined in their first two seasons and less than 9.

More than 9 ... http://bkref.com/tiny/DN9yl ... 152 active players made this list
Less than 9 ... http://bkref.com/tiny/xD8Jf ... 454 active players made this list

Now the real argument is not about "good" players. We're talking about "star" players. It's not even close in terms of star players. No where near close. Only fools would try to argue there is a "good" chance of a player in the second list is going to turn into a star. There is an outside chance but it is way, way more remote than you are making it out to be.

Thank goodness Josh Jackson is in the first list and we have a chance he's going to be decent. Chriss is borderline and if he could turn this goat screw of a start to the season around he might have a chance (slim). I see no chance for Bender to be a star player.

Well we were not talking stars. We were talking whether or not Bender/Chriss are complete busts. Besides, the second lists has soem you could consider stars such as Gobert, Butler, Hayward and Draymond Green and many other solid players some of which may have been (or will be) all stars in Ibaka, Noah, Millsap, DeAndre Jordan, Goran Dragic, Rondo, Korver, Batum, Aaron Gordon, Otto Porter, Derrick Favors, Joe Johnson, David West, Tyson Chandler, Zach Randolph, Al Jefferson, Clint Capela, Jae Crowder, Tobias Harris and Gary Harris. I left a number of solid players off as well.

[lilfishi22]

The attitude stuff with chriss is confusing. On one hand he does seem to openly pout and get emotional but on the other hand by all accounts he's a pretty sharp and good dude off the court.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

I think he kind of follows Booker's lead with the pouting stuff (if you're talking about to officials). Booker pouts too. People don't mention that but he does. I think if they ever start cutting back on that more calls will start going our way.

I guess the big difference is Booker is a star and pouting + complaining + star = calls. Refs ignore pouty non-stars. It's how the league works...If I had a dollar for every make up call a star gets after complaining a non-call...

[Damkac]

Suns should hire team psychologist to work with Chriss and JJ on controlling their emotions and with Bender on his self-confidence.