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Game 57 : Denver Nuggets (29-26) at Phoenix Suns (18-38), Saturday, Feb 10th, 7:00PM MST

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Re: Game 57 : Denver Nuggets (29-26) at Phoenix Suns (18-38), Saturday, Feb 10th, 7:00PM MST 

Post#401 » by Hesh » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:35 pm

Anyone know if Book will play against GSW?
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Re: Game 57 : Denver Nuggets (29-26) at Phoenix Suns (18-38), Saturday, Feb 10th, 7:00PM MST 

Post#402 » by hollywood6964 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:52 pm

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
hollywood6964 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Hard to compare Amare to Chriss other than their freakish athleticism but Amare had excellent offensive IQ. He had a great hands, instincts, motor and had a number of simple moves which was enough when combined with his athleticism to get baskets or get to the line. Chriss doesn't have any of that and while he does have a 3PT shot (sort of), it's highly reliant on the team to get him those shots and it also largely negates his athletic gifts and ability to get easy shots down low. I don't really have much confidence that he'll be able to turn it around with his level of IQ.

I don't even think Chriss has this freakish athleticism that everyone talks about. Sure he can jump fairly well, but only if he loads up. He's not particularly fast, doesn't have side to side quickness, can't dribble very well, n has very average hand/eye. Maybe some of that doesn't quite directly fall into athleticism, but it overlaps. Chriss is an athlete the way stromile Swift was, in jumping only- after loading up. N even then, Swift was a better leaper. I don't buy on Chriss overall, he may turn into a semi productive player, but I hope it's on another team, after unloading him.


IDK if this is right. He seems to have a quick jump when going for blocks. It just seems that when he goes for a dunk at the rim, he doesn't have enough power to finish over defenders. I guess I'd rather have the defensive quickness than the offensive power, but I was really hoping for both.

I still expect him to turn into a Rodney Rogers-type on offense, with better defense, if he can learn to put his tools to good use on that end. He's just not smart atm. Fortunately, it doesn't look like he's a knucklehead; he just hasn't been able to put it together on the court as of yet.

So you think he has "freakish athleticism". I only use that term because I've heard so many times on this board. I do not. n I can't compare him to Amare, like most people do (I'm not bagging on you lilfishi, I have heard this from a lot of ppl). He doesn't even have the athletic level of Amare after his micro fracture surgery, not even close to pre surgery. Hell not even close to post, he's way slower. He's closer to Stro.

I think here in Suns land a lot have overrated him, until late that is.
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Re: Game 57 : Denver Nuggets (29-26) at Phoenix Suns (18-38), Saturday, Feb 10th, 7:00PM MST 

Post#403 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:02 pm

hollywood6964 wrote:
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
hollywood6964 wrote:I don't even think Chriss has this freakish athleticism that everyone talks about. Sure he can jump fairly well, but only if he loads up. He's not particularly fast, doesn't have side to side quickness, can't dribble very well, n has very average hand/eye. Maybe some of that doesn't quite directly fall into athleticism, but it overlaps. Chriss is an athlete the way stromile Swift was, in jumping only- after loading up. N even then, Swift was a better leaper. I don't buy on Chriss overall, he may turn into a semi productive player, but I hope it's on another team, after unloading him.


IDK if this is right. He seems to have a quick jump when going for blocks. It just seems that when he goes for a dunk at the rim, he doesn't have enough power to finish over defenders. I guess I'd rather have the defensive quickness than the offensive power, but I was really hoping for both.

I still expect him to turn into a Rodney Rogers-type on offense, with better defense, if he can learn to put his tools to good use on that end. He's just not smart atm. Fortunately, it doesn't look like he's a knucklehead; he just hasn't been able to put it together on the court as of yet.

So you think he has "freakish athleticism". I only use that term because I've heard so many times on this board. I do not. n I can't compare him to Amare, like most people do (I'm not bagging on you lilfishi, I have heard this from a lot of ppl). He doesn't even have the athletic level of Amare after his micro fracture surgery, not even close to pre surgery. Hell not even close to post, he's way slower. He's closer to Stro.

I think here in Suns land a lot have overrated him, until late that is.


I wouldn't say he has freakish athleticism. I just don't think he needs to "load up" to jump. It's a tendency he has on offense, not defense, which is interesting.
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Re: Game 57 : Denver Nuggets (29-26) at Phoenix Suns (18-38), Saturday, Feb 10th, 7:00PM MST 

Post#404 » by hollywood6964 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:20 pm

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
hollywood6964 wrote:
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
IDK if this is right. He seems to have a quick jump when going for blocks. It just seems that when he goes for a dunk at the rim, he doesn't have enough power to finish over defenders. I guess I'd rather have the defensive quickness than the offensive power, but I was really hoping for both.

I still expect him to turn into a Rodney Rogers-type on offense, with better defense, if he can learn to put his tools to good use on that end. He's just not smart atm. Fortunately, it doesn't look like he's a knucklehead; he just hasn't been able to put it together on the court as of yet.

So you think he has "freakish athleticism". I only use that term because I've heard so many times on this board. I do not. n I can't compare him to Amare, like most people do (I'm not bagging on you lilfishi, I have heard this from a lot of ppl). He doesn't even have the athletic level of Amare after his micro fracture surgery, not even close to pre surgery. Hell not even close to post, he's way slower. He's closer to Stro.

I think here in Suns land a lot have overrated him, until late that is.


I wouldn't say he has freakish athleticism. I just don't think he needs to "load up" to jump. It's a tendency he has on offense, not defense, which is interesting.

I think he does to have those high dunks. On defensive, he will just react n block a shot here n there, no time to coil. He's talk with long arms, so it doesn't take a dwade like jump to block a shot. But just because I think he's more like stromile (all though Stro was an all world dinner), doesn't mean he's not athletic at all, just not overly. N if he were, he'd be putting up some numbers, even with his mental n maturity deficiencies, n we'd all be dealing with it, n giving more passes. I just hope some other team around the league thinks he can be that guy, n we can get something for him.
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Re: Game 57 : Denver Nuggets (29-26) at Phoenix Suns (18-38), Saturday, Feb 10th, 7:00PM MST 

Post#405 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:05 pm

hollywood6964 wrote:
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
hollywood6964 wrote:So you think he has "freakish athleticism". I only use that term because I've heard so many times on this board. I do not. n I can't compare him to Amare, like most people do (I'm not bagging on you lilfishi, I have heard this from a lot of ppl). He doesn't even have the athletic level of Amare after his micro fracture surgery, not even close to pre surgery. Hell not even close to post, he's way slower. He's closer to Stro.

I think here in Suns land a lot have overrated him, until late that is.


I wouldn't say he has freakish athleticism. I just don't think he needs to "load up" to jump. It's a tendency he has on offense, not defense, which is interesting.

I think he does to have those high dunks. On defensive, he will just react n block a shot here n there, no time to coil. He's talk with long arms, so it doesn't take a dwade like jump to block a shot. But just because I think he's more like stromile (all though Stro was an all world dinner), doesn't mean he's not athletic at all, just not overly. N if he were, he'd be putting up some numbers, even with his mental n maturity deficiencies, n we'd all be dealing with it, n giving more passes. I just hope some other team around the league thinks he can be that guy, n we can get something for him.


I just think it's way too early to give up on this kid. The vast majority of players in this league do not break out in the first couple seasons. Players need time to figure the game out. And when it happens, it can be quick. Bender is a completely different player than he was just a few games ago. You gotta be patient, mang.
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Re: Game 57 : Denver Nuggets (29-26) at Phoenix Suns (18-38), Saturday, Feb 10th, 7:00PM MST 

Post#406 » by hollywood6964 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:28 pm

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
hollywood6964 wrote:
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
I wouldn't say he has freakish athleticism. I just don't think he needs to "load up" to jump. It's a tendency he has on offense, not defense, which is interesting.

I think he does to have those high dunks. On defensive, he will just react n block a shot here n there, no time to coil. He's talk with long arms, so it doesn't take a dwade like jump to block a shot. But just because I think he's more like stromile (all though Stro was an all world dinner), doesn't mean he's not athletic at all, just not overly. N if he were, he'd be putting up some numbers, even with his mental n maturity deficiencies, n we'd all be dealing with it, n giving more passes. I just hope some other team around the league thinks he can be that guy, n we can get something for him.


I just think it's way too early to give up on this kid. The vast majority of players in this league do not break out in the first couple seasons. Players need time to figure the game out. And when it happens, it can be quick. Bender is a completely different player than he was just a few games ago. You gotta be patient, mang.

I hear what you're saying, year 3 is usually when it happens, if it does.

But sometimes you have to take strategic risks. Like on a young player, if you wait too long to trade the asset, everyone knows it's a bust, or whatever, n you get s#!t for it. But sometimes if you see a dog early, others may not, n still think he can be something special. And in that case, you get something in a trade, albeit with some risk involved.

I think with his attitude problems (mostly), combined with his lack of skill, I would personally trade him if you can get something for him. Showcase him the rest of the year, hopefully her produces something, n heave ho.

A second option is if he somehow turned it around (which I doubt), you either have a higher tiered trade piece or you could possibly give him another chance. Either way I'd give him big minutes, if he could possibly handle it without fouling out. Probably help the tank too.
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Re: Game 57 : Denver Nuggets (29-26) at Phoenix Suns (18-38), Saturday, Feb 10th, 7:00PM MST 

Post#407 » by NTB » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:01 pm

Hesh wrote:Anyone know if Book will play against GSW?


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Re: Game 57 : Denver Nuggets (29-26) at Phoenix Suns (18-38), Saturday, Feb 10th, 7:00PM MST 

Post#408 » by RunDogGun » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:06 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:
garrick wrote:I think Chriss is being misused in our offense as he has really only become a spot up shooter recently, we need to have him make some cuts and have him as the roll man on PnR at least a few times on offense, having him camping out at the corners doesn't allow him to pick up any offensive rebounds either.

It’s tough with players who aren’t very smart like Chriss. They are either freakish athletes like Amare, and you have a point guard like Nash to get the most out of him, or you realize you made a bad choice trading for him, and he just won’t advance like he should. This year it looked like Chriss did a good job gaining weight, and did nothing to advance his game. He has no post moves, and for some reason misses many dunks. I think the best we can do is move him on draft night, and hope he doesn’t turn into a smart player for another team. :D

Hard to compare Amare to Chriss other than their freakish athleticism but Amare had excellent offensive IQ. He had a great hands, instincts, motor and had a number of simple moves which was enough when combined with his athleticism to get baskets or get to the line. Chriss doesn't have any of that and while he does have a 3PT shot (sort of), it's highly reliant on the team to get him those shots and it also largely negates his athletic gifts and ability to get easy shots down low. I don't really have much confidence that he'll be able to turn it around with his level of IQ.


My comparison with Chriss and Amare was based off of both of them being as dumb as a bag of hammers, that’s about it. I was saying Chriss doesn’t have the finishing ability of Amare, and a point guard to deliver pin point passes to accentuate that finishing skills. Now I can’t say that Chriss won’t develop that finishing ability, and who knows if he can benefit from Payton, I just feel our best use for him is to trade him on draft night in hopes to move up to get Skai.
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Re: Game 57 : Denver Nuggets (29-26) at Phoenix Suns (18-38), Saturday, Feb 10th, 7:00PM MST 

Post#409 » by RunDogGun » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:09 pm

NTB wrote:
Hesh wrote:Anyone know if Book will play against GSW?


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It’s smart to keep him out. There is no need to rush him back especially if he is in pain. I do want to see as many games as possible with Payton to evaluate the pairing, but I’d rather have a healthy Booker.
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Re: Game 57 : Denver Nuggets (29-26) at Phoenix Suns (18-38), Saturday, Feb 10th, 7:00PM MST 

Post#410 » by RunDogGun » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:16 pm

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
hollywood6964 wrote:
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
I wouldn't say he has freakish athleticism. I just don't think he needs to "load up" to jump. It's a tendency he has on offense, not defense, which is interesting.

I think he does to have those high dunks. On defensive, he will just react n block a shot here n there, no time to coil. He's talk with long arms, so it doesn't take a dwade like jump to block a shot. But just because I think he's more like stromile (all though Stro was an all world dinner), doesn't mean he's not athletic at all, just not overly. N if he were, he'd be putting up some numbers, even with his mental n maturity deficiencies, n we'd all be dealing with it, n giving more passes. I just hope some other team around the league thinks he can be that guy, n we can get something for him.


I just think it's way too early to give up on this kid. The vast majority of players in this league do not break out in the first couple seasons. Players need time to figure the game out. And when it happens, it can be quick. Bender is a completely different player than he was just a few games ago. You gotta be patient, mang.


It’s tough to coach a player who just isn’t smart. Chriss just isn’t smart. He seemed to have spent the whole summer just gaining weight, and didn’t do much in way of his game. Bender is a different story. That guy is smart, he just hasn’t tapped into his aggressive side fully. I still think if we got Kukoc to mentor him, we would see a very good player quickly.

Yes it would suck to move Chriss, and find out that he was just immature and not dumb, but as of now, I just don’t see him turning that corner, and we have other pressing needs. His position can be filled in the draft or FA.
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Re: Game 57 : Denver Nuggets (29-26) at Phoenix Suns (18-38), Saturday, Feb 10th, 7:00PM MST 

Post#411 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:16 pm

hollywood6964 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:It’s tough with players who aren’t very smart like Chriss. They are either freakish athletes like Amare, and you have a point guard like Nash to get the most out of him, or you realize you made a bad choice trading for him, and he just won’t advance like he should. This year it looked like Chriss did a good job gaining weight, and did nothing to advance his game. He has no post moves, and for some reason misses many dunks. I think the best we can do is move him on draft night, and hope he doesn’t turn into a smart player for another team. :D

Hard to compare Amare to Chriss other than their freakish athleticism but Amare had excellent offensive IQ. He had a great hands, instincts, motor and had a number of simple moves which was enough when combined with his athleticism to get baskets or get to the line. Chriss doesn't have any of that and while he does have a 3PT shot (sort of), it's highly reliant on the team to get him those shots and it also largely negates his athletic gifts and ability to get easy shots down low. I don't really have much confidence that he'll be able to turn it around with his level of IQ.

I don't even think Chriss has this freakish athleticism that everyone talks about. Sure he can jump fairly well, but only if he loads up. He's not particularly fast, doesn't have side to side quickness, can't dribble very well, n has very average hand/eye. Maybe some of that doesn't quite directly fall into athleticism, but it overlaps. Chriss is an athlete the way stromile Swift was, in jumping only- after loading up. N even then, Swift was a better leaper. I don't buy on Chriss overall, he may turn into a semi productive player, but I hope it's on another team, after unloading him.

I guess I do agree with this in general. I think the big difference is Amare's frame. He's always had pretty broad shoulders while Chriss seems to be a lot more narrow. Amare's frame allows him to absorb a lot more contact and still finish. That's essentially been his bread and butter since day one and he's just added onto this. Chriss thus far hasn't really shown he's able to use his athleticism to his advantage all that much. He's certainly elite when it comes to being athletic but maybe not freakish because he doesn't really have the body to go with it.
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Re: Game 57 : Denver Nuggets (29-26) at Phoenix Suns (18-38), Saturday, Feb 10th, 7:00PM MST 

Post#412 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:20 pm

hollywood6964 wrote:
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
hollywood6964 wrote:I don't even think Chriss has this freakish athleticism that everyone talks about. Sure he can jump fairly well, but only if he loads up. He's not particularly fast, doesn't have side to side quickness, can't dribble very well, n has very average hand/eye. Maybe some of that doesn't quite directly fall into athleticism, but it overlaps. Chriss is an athlete the way stromile Swift was, in jumping only- after loading up. N even then, Swift was a better leaper. I don't buy on Chriss overall, he may turn into a semi productive player, but I hope it's on another team, after unloading him.


IDK if this is right. He seems to have a quick jump when going for blocks. It just seems that when he goes for a dunk at the rim, he doesn't have enough power to finish over defenders. I guess I'd rather have the defensive quickness than the offensive power, but I was really hoping for both.

I still expect him to turn into a Rodney Rogers-type on offense, with better defense, if he can learn to put his tools to good use on that end. He's just not smart atm. Fortunately, it doesn't look like he's a knucklehead; he just hasn't been able to put it together on the court as of yet.

So you think he has "freakish athleticism". I only use that term because I've heard so many times on this board. I do not. n I can't compare him to Amare, like most people do (I'm not bagging on you lilfishi, I have heard this from a lot of ppl). He doesn't even have the athletic level of Amare after his micro fracture surgery, not even close to pre surgery. Hell not even close to post, he's way slower. He's closer to Stro.

I think here in Suns land a lot have overrated him, until late that is.

Yeah now that I think about it, from a vertical standpoint, they are probably comparable but Amare's ability to explode on the first jump with little space and finish over bigger players was really what set him apart from other athletic bigs of his time. I mean, just on missed dunks alone should probably put Chriss in a tier below pre and early post-MF surgery Amare.
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Re: Game 57 : Denver Nuggets (29-26) at Phoenix Suns (18-38), Saturday, Feb 10th, 7:00PM MST 

Post#413 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:29 pm

hollywood6964 wrote:
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
hollywood6964 wrote:I think he does to have those high dunks. On defensive, he will just react n block a shot here n there, no time to coil. He's talk with long arms, so it doesn't take a dwade like jump to block a shot. But just because I think he's more like stromile (all though Stro was an all world dinner), doesn't mean he's not athletic at all, just not overly. N if he were, he'd be putting up some numbers, even with his mental n maturity deficiencies, n we'd all be dealing with it, n giving more passes. I just hope some other team around the league thinks he can be that guy, n we can get something for him.


I just think it's way too early to give up on this kid. The vast majority of players in this league do not break out in the first couple seasons. Players need time to figure the game out. And when it happens, it can be quick. Bender is a completely different player than he was just a few games ago. You gotta be patient, mang.

I hear what you're saying, year 3 is usually when it happens, if it does.

But sometimes you have to take strategic risks. Like on a young player, if you wait too long to trade the asset, everyone knows it's a bust, or whatever, n you get s#!t for it. But sometimes if you see a dog early, others may not, n still think he can be something special. And in that case, you get something in a trade, albeit with some risk involved.

I think with his attitude problems (mostly), combined with his lack of skill, I would personally trade him if you can get something for him. Showcase him the rest of the year, hopefully her produces something, n heave ho.

A second option is if he somehow turned it around (which I doubt), you either have a higher tiered trade piece or you could possibly give him another chance. Either way I'd give him big minutes, if he could possibly handle it without fouling out. Probably help the tank too.

I was listening to the RealGM podcast today and they did a review of the the trade deadline deals and of course the Payton for 2nd rounder deal came up. Their view was that it was an excellent deal for us and getting him for only a 2nd rounder and we'll have his rights in somewhat of a depressed market which means we may be able to retain him for cheap. On the other side, they thought the Payton experiment in Orlando went on for too long and had they moved him earlier, they may have gotten something more useful than a 2nd rounder in return. I think that's what I want to avoid with Chriss.
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Re: Game 57 : Denver Nuggets (29-26) at Phoenix Suns (18-38), Saturday, Feb 10th, 7:00PM MST 

Post#414 » by garrick » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:02 am

hollywood6964 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:It’s tough with players who aren’t very smart like Chriss. They are either freakish athletes like Amare, and you have a point guard like Nash to get the most out of him, or you realize you made a bad choice trading for him, and he just won’t advance like he should. This year it looked like Chriss did a good job gaining weight, and did nothing to advance his game. He has no post moves, and for some reason misses many dunks. I think the best we can do is move him on draft night, and hope he doesn’t turn into a smart player for another team. :D

Hard to compare Amare to Chriss other than their freakish athleticism but Amare had excellent offensive IQ. He had a great hands, instincts, motor and had a number of simple moves which was enough when combined with his athleticism to get baskets or get to the line. Chriss doesn't have any of that and while he does have a 3PT shot (sort of), it's highly reliant on the team to get him those shots and it also largely negates his athletic gifts and ability to get easy shots down low. I don't really have much confidence that he'll be able to turn it around with his level of IQ.

I don't even think Chriss has this freakish athleticism that everyone talks about. Sure he can jump fairly well, but only if he loads up. He's not particularly fast, doesn't have side to side quickness, can't dribble very well, n has very average hand/eye. Maybe some of that doesn't quite directly fall into athleticism, but it overlaps. Chriss is an athlete the way stromile Swift was, in jumping only- after loading up. N even then, Swift was a better leaper. I don't buy on Chriss overall, he may turn into a semi productive player, but I hope it's on another team, after unloading him.

Amare was bigger, stronger and quicker than Chriss. Not sure about the leaping ability as Chriss at least last season had quite a few highlight reel dunks but just seems to be in worse shape this year.

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