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2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued

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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#401 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:49 am

PhxLax wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:I think people need to understand that it's not always possible and it's very much the norm for teams to take a number of seasons to find their starting (insert position) going forward that makes sense for the team from an age, talent and production standpoint.

This crop of free agent PG's has been pretty poor and those who are good were either going to be very expensive to sign (FVV) or their team are still holding onto them (Pat Bev, Collison, Lin). To just try and fill that hole with with an average PG who you have to overpay for is anti-intellectual. The Knight/Okobo/Shaq PG rotation isn't great, no one is arguing it's going to do wonders for us but to pay a guy like Avery Bradley 12m a year, Smart 12-15m a year or overpay FVV with a backloaded balloon contract would hurt us more than it would help us.

Next season there's going to be guys like
Rubio
Lin
Walker
Collison
Joseph
Teodosic
Bev
DLo
Rozier
Delon Wright
Tyus Jones
Brogdon
TJ McConnell
Dinwiddie.

It's a lot better class than this offseasons PG class
Exum
FVV
Parker
Rondo :nod:
Payton
MCW
IT
Mack
Smart
Jack
Napier
Larkin
Ty Lawson
Ferrell


RONDO. I'll still take it to my grave that Rondo is by far the best (and most underrated) PG the NBA had to offer w/ regards to the free agent class of 2018 and 2019. Nobody comes close to Rondo's smarts, ability to read offense, and ability to defend. A true (arrogant) champ.

If I were GM, I would have throw all the money in the world to Rondo for many years to come. But I'm sure many would say you glad I'm not the GM :D

Rondo is one of those guys who if not motivated is a complete cancer for the team. He's a massive risk especially because he's past his prime. I wouldn't mind Rondo on a small 1yr deal
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#402 » by PhxLax » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:51 am

AtheJ415 wrote:If our goal was to set a new NBA record in shooting inability, combined with having the most unhealthy locker room cancer of the past 15 years to infect the youngsters, then yes, Rondo should be the guy. Rondo thinks he understands Xs and Os better than Rick Carlisle, and the team hated him so much that they booted him mid-series with no other playable PG on the roster and the rest of the roster voted him out of getting a share of the playoff salary. He then went to Sac and did the same thing. Not a single of the other 4 Celtics starters seem to have a good thing to say about him.

The 1 thing Phx seems to have going for it right now is locker room chemistry. Book, Jackson, etc. all like each other. They respect Tyson. They respect Igor. You want to light that on fire by bringing in a guy who has proven he will openly reject the coach's gameplan and stat hunt at the expense of his teammates? :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

I'd rather sign Marcus Smart to the super max. That's how awful that idea is.


Rondo is the Donald Trump of the NBA. You either hate him or love him. He's either an arrogant idiot or a master genius.

I happen to think the latter. He excelled in his early years (Celtics) and last year (Pelicans) and all of those guys from those teams have nothing but good to say. I'm also speaking of bias here since my GF went to college in Kentucky with him and knows him. He's a sweet nice guy. But he's also in-your-face and doesn't back down (just like Trump).

So what if whiny little Sacto Kings players said he was a "cancer". We don't know that cause we weren't there. And even so - it don't matter, Kings and Bulls teams he played for were rostered by a bunch of whining little losers.

Rondo is a real champ. Prob the best PG this side of Steve Nash. Nothing but love for him. And a total shame he was not given a multi-year contract by the Suns or any other team for that matter. He is going to go down as one of the smartest NBA players in history. He speaks truth, gets in your face when you b.s., and he doesn't take crap from others. Suns can def use a player like that.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#403 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:53 am

AtheJ415 wrote:As for the other debate, you can go small at the 4 in today's league. Often you have to by necessity. This is particularly true if we're going to develop Ayton as a true 5 manning the interior. That said, while Ayton's focus this year should be almost all on defense, I would like to see him start to work on his 3 point shot in meaningless setting like SL in spurts. Ultimately, he has the touch to do it, and if we have that threat as a pop man from the 3 point line off the PnR to counter his rim runs, it will make the offense a lot better. Particularly with the off ball dives that can flood the paint, which is where Jackson and Warren excel.

I definitely think you can go small in one of your 'big man' positions if you do have one legit big out there. A line up of Knight or Okobo/Booker/Bridges/Ariza/Ayton would work because there's enough length and shooting on that team. With teams beginning their offense from the perimeter more often now, it make sense to shore up the perimeter D. With Ayton in the middle, even if he's not a great defensive big right now, his size and length alone would make up for the lack of 'post defense' from Ariza.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#404 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:56 am

PhxLax wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:If our goal was to set a new NBA record in shooting inability, combined with having the most unhealthy locker room cancer of the past 15 years to infect the youngsters, then yes, Rondo should be the guy. Rondo thinks he understands Xs and Os better than Rick Carlisle, and the team hated him so much that they booted him mid-series with no other playable PG on the roster and the rest of the roster voted him out of getting a share of the playoff salary. He then went to Sac and did the same thing. Not a single of the other 4 Celtics starters seem to have a good thing to say about him.

The 1 thing Phx seems to have going for it right now is locker room chemistry. Book, Jackson, etc. all like each other. They respect Tyson. They respect Igor. You want to light that on fire by bringing in a guy who has proven he will openly reject the coach's gameplan and stat hunt at the expense of his teammates? :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

I'd rather sign Marcus Smart to the super max. That's how awful that idea is.


Rondo is the Donald Trump of the NBA. You either hate him or love him. He's either an arrogant idiot or a master genius.

I happen to think the latter. He excelled in his early years (Celtics) and last year (Pelicans) and all of those guys from those teams have nothing but good to say. I'm also speaking of bias here since my GF went to college in Kentucky with him and knows him. He's a sweet nice guy. But he's also in-your-face and doesn't back down (just like Trump).

So what if whiny little Sacto Kings players said he was a "cancer". We don't know that cause we weren't there. And even so - it don't matter, Kings and Bulls teams he played for were rostered by a bunch of whining little losers.

Rondo is a real champ. Prob the best PG this side of Steve Nash. Nothing but love for him. And a total shame he was not given a multi-year contract by the Suns or any other team for that matter. He is going to go down as one of the smartest NBA players in history. He speaks truth, gets in your face when you b.s., and he doesn't take crap from others. Suns can def use a player like that.

Doesn't that tell you that perhaps you're the only 'basketball expert' that thinks more highly of Rondo than actual basketball experts on NBA?
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#405 » by AtheJ415 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:25 am

PhxLax wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:If our goal was to set a new NBA record in shooting inability, combined with having the most unhealthy locker room cancer of the past 15 years to infect the youngsters, then yes, Rondo should be the guy. Rondo thinks he understands Xs and Os better than Rick Carlisle, and the team hated him so much that they booted him mid-series with no other playable PG on the roster and the rest of the roster voted him out of getting a share of the playoff salary. He then went to Sac and did the same thing. Not a single of the other 4 Celtics starters seem to have a good thing to say about him.

The 1 thing Phx seems to have going for it right now is locker room chemistry. Book, Jackson, etc. all like each other. They respect Tyson. They respect Igor. You want to light that on fire by bringing in a guy who has proven he will openly reject the coach's gameplan and stat hunt at the expense of his teammates? :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

I'd rather sign Marcus Smart to the super max. That's how awful that idea is.


Rondo is the Donald Trump of the NBA. You either hate him or love him. He's either an arrogant idiot or a master genius.

I happen to think the latter. He excelled in his early years (Celtics) and last year (Pelicans) and all of those guys from those teams have nothing but good to say. I'm also speaking of bias here since my GF went to college in Kentucky with him and knows him. He's a sweet nice guy. But he's also in-your-face and doesn't back down (just like Trump).

So what if whiny little Sacto Kings players said he was a "cancer". We don't know that cause we weren't there. And even so - it don't matter, Kings and Bulls teams he played for were rostered by a bunch of whining little losers.

Rondo is a real champ. Prob the best PG this side of Steve Nash. Nothing but love for him. And a total shame he was not given a multi-year contract by the Suns or any other team for that matter. He is going to go down as one of the smartest NBA players in history. He speaks truth, gets in your face when you b.s., and he doesn't take crap from others. Suns can def use a player like that.


Those Celtics teams are filled with hall of famers that carried them to that title in spite of Rondo, none of whom will say a positive thing about him. He flamed out there. He then flamed out in Dallas with a team that recently had won a title and had hall of famers on it and was far from "whiny".

Also, you can't find statistics that back up any of the bolded. He has never been a top 2 PG in the NBA. Not ever. He may be smart, but he doesn't understand X's and O's better than Rick Carlisle, and his teammates hated him so much and his ego was so high that he was gutted from the team. Rondo's an arrogant prick who refuses to believe anybody could possibly know more than him. And saying he's like Trump is far from somehow excusable in all of this. You couldn't find a leader that NBA players would look up to less than Trump. In fact, their actual leader (Silver and the NBPA), openly hate the dude.

It's as stupid as wanting Smart. There is a reason not a single team wants to give him a multi-year contract, and a reason the only coach in 15 years who has been able to handle him is Alvin Gentry.

If Rondo was a "real champ", then he would've found a way to win a title just once without having 3 hall of famers in his starting lineup having trying to incessantly demand he stop gambling for steals and getting them in foul trouble.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#406 » by AtheJ415 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:36 am

In fact, I'd go this far, the 2 FAs who could help this Suns team the least are Marcus Smart and Rajon Rondo.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#407 » by SkinnyOMiller » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:08 am

I would happily take Rubio next season. He improved somewhat as a shooter this past season, with Kokoskov getting credit for some of the that. He's an elite passer and a very good defender, the perfect guy to help setup Ayton and Booker with easy shots along with playing tenacious defense.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#408 » by Damkac » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:48 am

Yes, Rubio should be high on our 2019 free agents list.
Devin Booker is a $158 million dollar Lou Williams. - ButCanMarkDunk

I think Devin Booker is 5-7 mil per year player on a championship conteder. - Sulico

Booker is like the 4th or 5th best player on a team that wins 20 games every year - Rocketsbaby
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#409 » by BobbieL » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:13 pm

Damkac wrote:Yes, Rubio should be high on our 2019 free agents list.


I think that Rubio would be a very solid target with the first pick and may not break the bank like other players that might be max players. As if Ayton progresses, Booker continues to progress and JJ &/or Bridges show something - the Suns have their stars. They just need the right players to fit in and around them. Understanding Durant was well Durant - the moves the Warriors made were to fill in the "blanks" - Bogut, Iggy, Livingston, Steve Blake. Various skill levels, various price points but not necessarily "max players." Just players that augmented to the skill set of the others.

As for Chandler - if he is on board with backup Ayton - thats fine. I just think this "narrative" that is he is the Shaolin Master who will help Kwai Chang Caine might be overstated. Of course, if Chandler is on board helping Ayton, thats fine. If not, well, I am sure there would be a team that signs him for the minimum.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#410 » by BobbieL » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:04 pm

Not that Ross - @Legion of Hoops - seems to be a guy of truth- More like Kyler Shultz level. But regarding the Heat - I do wonder if Riley is open for business. The Heat are talking to Melo - my guess just wanting to move longer term contracts for expiring. Melo could get rid of one Whiteside or two other contracts. Also, this talk of Waiters below tweet . I wonder if either Olynyk or Dragic could be open for Chandler, Bender or Chriss, Daniels , or something like that. If Riley really wants cap space next summer.

Would Olynyk be the PF next to Ayton - signed for pretty good deal 3/33 or something like that. Granted, takes you out of next summer or limits you next summer.

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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#411 » by WeekapaugGroove » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:05 pm

Next summer we might finally see a little power shift to the Eastern conference. Three huge market teams in the Knicks, nets, and bulls will have a bunch of cap space and I think they will have real opportunities to grab some stars. I'll predict this now, durrant is on one of those teams next summer as he tries to win one with his own team.

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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#412 » by bwgood77 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:16 pm

PhxLax wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:I think people need to understand that it's not always possible and it's very much the norm for teams to take a number of seasons to find their starting (insert position) going forward that makes sense for the team from an age, talent and production standpoint.

This crop of free agent PG's has been pretty poor and those who are good were either going to be very expensive to sign (FVV) or their team are still holding onto them (Pat Bev, Collison, Lin). To just try and fill that hole with with an average PG who you have to overpay for is anti-intellectual. The Knight/Okobo/Shaq PG rotation isn't great, no one is arguing it's going to do wonders for us but to pay a guy like Avery Bradley 12m a year, Smart 12-15m a year or overpay FVV with a backloaded balloon contract would hurt us more than it would help us.

Next season there's going to be guys like
Rubio
Lin
Walker
Collison
Joseph
Teodosic
Bev
DLo
Rozier
Delon Wright
Tyus Jones
Brogdon
TJ McConnell
Dinwiddie.

It's a lot better class than this offseasons PG class
Exum
FVV
Parker
Rondo :nod:
Payton
MCW
IT
Mack
Smart
Jack
Napier
Larkin
Ty Lawson
Ferrell


RONDO. I'll still take it to my grave that Rondo is by far the best (and most underrated) PG the NBA had to offer w/ regards to the free agent class of 2018 and 2019. Nobody comes close to Rondo's smarts, ability to read offense, and ability to defend. A true (arrogant) champ.

If I were GM, I would have throw all the money in the world to Rondo for many years to come. But I'm sure many would say you glad I'm not the GM :D


I can say Carlisle is glad you are not the Mavs GM.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#413 » by jcsunsfan » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:22 pm

BobbieL wrote:
DarkHawk wrote:
BobbieL wrote:Lin for Carmelo being discussed. There would have to be more players involved. Lin makes 12m ; Melo like 27m - so another1m back to Brooklyn. Only player that makes sense is Crabbe as that gets rid of a long term debt for Nets. Carroll and Lin for Melo is expiring for expiring. Granted, Carroll does help OKC even this year and Lin could be waived Will be interesting - unless this turns into a 3 team deal.

http://amicohoops.net/report-nets-thunder-talking-anthony-trade/


Maybe we can get involved where we get Lin and move Dudley (makes 2mil less) to OKC?

It'd probably have to be something like this:

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yah5fjnq
(with picks moving around. Suns get none but maybe move a second rounder to the Kings with the Thunder moving a future first or some seconds to the nets)

Doesn't look like the Kings need a SG though but they only have one true PG.
I really don't know how the Nets/Thunder can make a deal by themselves but if there's any chance we can get Lin, I would love to do it.


this is pretty good deal - this would save OKC a ton of money. I mean like 80m bucks
Kings get Crabbe. He is not Lavine but everybody has turned them down.
Nets get rid of Crabbe and Lin
Suns get a PG that probably would work well

good work DH!

EdIT: would save the Thunder 113m per the capulator replacing Dudley for Anthony. But they need to stretch Dudley. If they keep him, they only save about 87m

What is the motivation for the Nets in this deal? Picks?


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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#414 » by bwgood77 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:24 pm

jcsunsfan wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
DarkHawk wrote:
Maybe we can get involved where we get Lin and move Dudley (makes 2mil less) to OKC?

It'd probably have to be something like this:

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yah5fjnq
(with picks moving around. Suns get none but maybe move a second rounder to the Kings with the Thunder moving a future first or some seconds to the nets)

Doesn't look like the Kings need a SG though but they only have one true PG.
I really don't know how the Nets/Thunder can make a deal by themselves but if there's any chance we can get Lin, I would love to do it.


this is pretty good deal - this would save OKC a ton of money. I mean like 80m bucks
Kings get Crabbe. He is not Lavine but everybody has turned them down.
Nets get rid of Crabbe and Lin
Suns get a PG that probably would work well

good work DH!

EdIT: would save the Thunder 113m per the capulator replacing Dudley for Anthony. But they need to stretch Dudley. If they keep him, they only save about 87m

What is the motivation for the Nets in this deal? Picks?


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I don't know why the Kings would want Crabbe either when they have Hield and Bogdanovic...and Justin Jackson.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#415 » by jcsunsfan » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:26 pm

SkinnyOMiller wrote:I'm all about keeping Chandler around. I think a year of Ayton learning from him and working with him everyday in practice would be invaluable. Chandler is a pro's pro, he was a very good center in this league for a long time and his strengths matchup well with a lot of Ayton's weaknesses. I think it would be tremendous to have such an accomplished veteran to learn from.

I think Chandler as a mentor is totally overrated. He hasn’t helped any of our bigs as far as I can see.


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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#416 » by BobbieL » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:26 pm

jcsunsfan wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
DarkHawk wrote:
Maybe we can get involved where we get Lin and move Dudley (makes 2mil less) to OKC?

It'd probably have to be something like this:

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yah5fjnq
(with picks moving around. Suns get none but maybe move a second rounder to the Kings with the Thunder moving a future first or some seconds to the nets)

Doesn't look like the Kings need a SG though but they only have one true PG.
I really don't know how the Nets/Thunder can make a deal by themselves but if there's any chance we can get Lin, I would love to do it.


this is pretty good deal - this would save OKC a ton of money. I mean like 80m bucks
Kings get Crabbe. He is not Lavine but everybody has turned them down.
Nets get rid of Crabbe and Lin
Suns get a PG that probably would work well

good work DH!

EdIT: would save the Thunder 113m per the capulator replacing Dudley for Anthony. But they need to stretch Dudley. If they keep him, they only save about 87m

What is the motivation for the Nets in this deal? Picks?


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Crabbe has two years left on his contract. If they move him and Lin for Anthony, it saves opens up so much cap space for them in 2019. I still don't get what any trade does for the Thunder - unless they realize they are capped out so why not get a decent player (Crabbe) -- and buyout Len since they are maxed anyway. Maybe why the Thunder might want to trade with Riley - they can get say James Johnson and Waiters . I can see Olynyk working with PG13 and that gang. It - doesn't help their tax payment but might help there team for this three year window.

BWG is right - Knicks, Bulls and Nets will have cap space in 2019. My guess, Riley wants to join the fray. If Riley gets Melo -
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#417 » by BobbieL » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:31 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
this is pretty good deal - this would save OKC a ton of money. I mean like 80m bucks
Kings get Crabbe. He is not Lavine but everybody has turned them down.
Nets get rid of Crabbe and Lin
Suns get a PG that probably would work well

good work DH!

EdIT: would save the Thunder 113m per the capulator replacing Dudley for Anthony. But they need to stretch Dudley. If they keep him, they only save about 87m

What is the motivation for the Nets in this deal? Picks?


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I don't know why the Kings would want Crabbe either when they have Hield and Bogdanovic...and Justin Jackson.


I get that - but Lavine - they tried for
Have read maybe Hood or Smart
who knows, they get desperate and do something - again it s along shot

I think Melo - if traded - goes to Miami or its a multi team with like Miami, OKC and the Nets.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#418 » by Waylay13 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:19 pm

AtheJ415 wrote:In fact, I'd go this far, the 2 FAs who could help this Suns team the least are Marcus Smart and Rajon Rondo.


You do understand that the Suns are going to try to run a 4 out offense with everyone but Ayton be able to hit the 3? Both Smart and Rondo are very poor outside shooting threats. To top that off Rondo is toxic in the lockroom backed by multiple reports and at most teams only being willing to give him single year contracts. So no I wouldnt touch them at all.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#419 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:20 pm

jcsunsfan wrote:
SkinnyOMiller wrote:I'm all about keeping Chandler around. I think a year of Ayton learning from him and working with him everyday in practice would be invaluable. Chandler is a pro's pro, he was a very good center in this league for a long time and his strengths matchup well with a lot of Ayton's weaknesses. I think it would be tremendous to have such an accomplished veteran to learn from.

I think Chandler as a mentor is totally overrated. He hasn’t helped any of our bigs as far as I can see.


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It's impossible to know what he's given us in the locker room, but on the court, the only thing he's shown me is that bigs shouldn't defend further from the FT line extended area under any circumstances, shouldn't sacrifice their body to try to get blocks and should never try to do anything on offense other than set screens, catch lobs on the roll and give the ball back to the guards to re-set.

Those are not good lessons for bigs to learn, obviously.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#420 » by BobbieL » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:29 pm

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:
SkinnyOMiller wrote:I'm all about keeping Chandler around. I think a year of Ayton learning from him and working with him everyday in practice would be invaluable. Chandler is a pro's pro, he was a very good center in this league for a long time and his strengths matchup well with a lot of Ayton's weaknesses. I think it would be tremendous to have such an accomplished veteran to learn from.

I think Chandler as a mentor is totally overrated. He hasn’t helped any of our bigs as far as I can see.


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It's impossible to know what he's given us in the locker room, but on the court, the only thing he's shown me is that bigs shouldn't defend further from the FT line extended area under any circumstances, shouldn't sacrifice their body to try to get blocks and should never try to do anything on offense other than set screens, catch lobs on the roll and give the ball back to the guards to re-set.

Those are not good lessons for bigs to learn, obviously.


I agree that the reality is more than the myth. I have mentioned this offseason the Suns need to do better job with the players with half of 27m owed to Chandler Dudley and Daniels. And maybe - its buying out Tyson for 12m and signing Alan Williams. Better in the locker room, court, chemistry, etc. I get that it will be hard to move Chandler for a player of value. Or Dudley. Daniels, I think will be do-able. But I don't need this Tyson as Mentor stuff.

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