Game 24: Memphis Grizzlies (7-16) @ Phoenix Suns (11-12)

[sunsbg]

This team has essentially won 20 games for the last 5 years, it was never going to flip around completely in one year and the fact we are competing for a playoff spot or even talking about it is a minor miracle. The hot start got all the fans and people on this board expectations all out of whack of what is realistic. Everyone just needs a little reality check and yes we should all be more than happy we are talking about the playoffs, at the beginning of the year every Suns fan would have been happy with 25 wins and progress we are 3 steps ahead of that now without our 2nd best player and a multitude of injuries.

I would like to know how exactly are the current players, management and coaching responsible for the last 5 years.

[Dual]

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[Ghost of Kleine]

It's perfectly fine that we disagree on Aytons' impact. I'm cool with that. Now your argument for Aytons' impact is based upon the concept of Baynes moving to a bench role and thusly Frank's minutes being reduced will eliminate the lack of athleticism in the post, I can agree with that to a degree. And that as a result it would theoretically improve our defense in the post. So more or less addition by subtraction by removing Kaminskys' lack of athleticism right? However, That assertion is highly dependent upon Ayton returning as a dominant and vocal defensive leader whom would hold his entire team accountable on the defensive end. ( something Monty thus far has apparently been unable to do) Although it still wouldn't address Sarics' equally poor athleticism in the post, But to his credit he does give good effort. As evidenced by Baynes( who's already plays a lot more dominantly and physically in the post than what Ayton has shown thus far). And Baynes' inability to cover defensively for either Sarics' or Kaminskys' sub par defense. And Ayton is to this date still more of a finesse player, despite his quite impressive athletic advantages.

Please don't get me wrong, I would absolutely love for that to be the case, Wherein he utilized this time to become a dominant and vocal leader for this team. But I unfortunately have yet to see any evidence of that imminently coming to fruition. Although I will keep my fingers crossed. So, in my opinion, Even with Ayton returning, And Baynes moving to the bench and Kaminskys' role getting reduced, I still don't see how that will stop the constant dribble penetration and easy scoring at the rim, Unless Monty somehow gets everyone operating on their rotations properly. I mean obviously Ayton is mobile, But he can't always be everywhere at once to cover for any/all defensive lapses. So whilst I do fully agree with you on the improvement in our team's rebounding, I can't yet fully agree upon our post defense improvement until I see Aytons' newfound toughness and tenacity upon his return? Will he have it finally, Or will he revert back to his happy go lucky easygoing, " just want to make it to my 2nd contract" finesse persona? I guess we'll see in that regard....lol.

Also, I can of course agree with you that his rebounding will help create better looks on the perimeter for our shooters as a result of the gravity that he creates, and also that his rebounding MAY help us get in better defensive sets. However, getting into defensive sets is only half of the issue, as again it seems our basic defensive fundamentals are lacking and as a result, our rotations and help defense are terrible.

I just don't feel that Ayton alone, Or even with Baynes additionally staggered, Can just by their sheer presence, instill or repair the apparent lack of fundamentals defensively or the necessary tenacity, toughness and consistent effort that has been consistently lacking, Unless again, He has miraculously figured out how to become a dominant defender and a vocal leader for our team. And lead by example defensively. And IF he isn't that upon his return, And our team doesn't buy in like we did at the start of the season, Then he'll of course still make a good impact in terms of points and scoring on the glass. And Baynes will of course add toughness to our bench too. ( ***yet still not addressing our frontcourt defensive weaknesses at the 4). But overall, it still won't be enough to likely carry us into the playoffs. Again, I'm just not seeing how he alone can improve or fully fix or porous perimeter defense and lazy perimeter defensive rotations, That clearly stems from our team's constant apathetic and underwhelming effort. That's the responsibility of the coach, and ultimately the players to hold each other accountable and operate as a team. And we quite obviously should have at least made a few of those corrections by now, Even with Ayton out.


Now I understand that with a young team, certain aspects take time. But were almost 25 games in now, how much more time should it realistically take professional basketball players to learn and exhibit basic defensive fundamentals? Even worse, Why do they need this much time to be able to fully understand the importance of playing consistently with effort ? ( isn't that common sense in competition). Also, Aren't the majority of these issues such as boxing out, basic defensive rotations on the pick and roll, and perimeter defense schemes already things that they should have a full understanding of, as they're obviously implemented even at the high school and college levels of basketball.
So yes, I can agree that he'll absolutely improve certain areas of need. "But one man, or even two does not a team make" as they say. He may be able to carry us for periods on occasion. But without a concerted team effort, We'll still ultimately lose. And these are things that we should be overcoming even without him as a professional basketball team honestly.

That's the thing, I don't think Ayton needs to be come back as a defensive monster for his impact to have a ripple effect. With him back our front court rotations get some much needed flexibility. So we can do more matchup based rotations than we currently can. I didn't mean to imply Ayton's return will absolutely fix our defense and move us up the ranks. But I do think it'll improve, if for nothing else than DEFENSIVE REBOUNDING. Though As I said, Ayton's PnR defense is superior to Saric, Kaminsky and Baynes so that too should help as teams won't be able to attack him as aggressively in that regard. And I agree Saric's lack of athleticism is still an issue. But unfortunately the only remedy to that is to bench or trade him. I think we should look into moving him as with how Monty utilizes him he's redundant with Kaminsky. Saric offers more skills, than he currently allowed to show unfortunately.

You think 25 games is enough time for such a young team to completely come together in every regard? I wouldn't be even remotely shocked if we don't see massive improvement until the end of the year or beginning of next year. Our training camp had to introduce so many new things and players. And then we lost Ayton so everything that they did learn is now irrelevant as they are having to adjust. I think people need to be patient. We can all see the team has the tools, it's just a matter of giving them time to full gel. And that includes Monty. Coaches have to learn just like Players do. I'm shocked that once again so many people are hating on Monty. It's crazy how fickle fans can be.

Fair points really, and I will agree on your points that Ayton will be superior defensively in comparison to either Saric or Kaminsky if based upon athleticism alone. So there is hope there certainly. But I'll still have my strong concerns over the overall general lack of team defensive fundamentals. Such as lack of proper defensive rotations, helping out by hedging on pick n' roll dribble penetration to close down straight paths to the hoop as we don't have a competent rim protector. So obviously such basic defensive fundamentals become critically important in the absence of Ayton/ and or Baynes. The other issue I have with regards to the lack of basic defensive fundamentals is in the unwillingness or inability to box out! Yes Ayton will of course help somewhat in that regard, But is he going to be expected to be at the hoop 100% of the time to alleviate any rebounding issues? What if the opposing teams pull him out from the post? Who gets the rebound then.

My point is that these are team issues that should be taught and/or addressed in practice and through drills, not based under the assumption that one player alone or even two players regardless of athletic ability should have to consistently shoulder the burden alone. Rebound by committee as they say. And whilst I absolutely do agree that it does take time for a team and coach to get familiarized with each other and gel, Isn't that the purpose of the preseason and also training camp? Furthermore, the issues that I'm focusing on are what I consider to be basic fundamentals of basketball, That are taught even as early as high school and in college too.

These are professional basketball players. It's not like they just picked up a basketball for the first time this season. Are we supposed to just assume that they forgot how to box out for rebounds, play perimeter defense, guard on pick and rolls. Even kids playing pickup basketball or recreational ball players have a basic understanding of rebounding and defense.

So whilst it does of course take time for a team to gel together. Our critical issues are basic defensive fundamentals that any competent basketball player should be familiar with, especially veterans in the league. Now if it's a matter of changing defensive schemes, Then yes, there'll obviously be a period of adjustments. But there has yet to be any discernible evidence of a defensive scheme whatsoever. Moreover the general lack of effort or interest in even playing consistent defense and getting stops is an even bigger issue. So yes, it's completely honestly understandable that new defensive schemes will take some time to adjust to. But the complete lack of being engaged defensively is a matter of choice and commitment to puttting forth the effort. And if a team is not showing any real consistency defensively, Then it's again a coaching issue that should be being addressed accordingly in practice through defensive drills.

So I'm sorry if I seem impatient, But again, This team has had training camp, and preseason IN ADDITION TO the already 25 games into the season to address potential defensive issues and become familiar with one another. I mean it couldn't have been that big of an enigma that both Kaminsky and Saric are sub par defenders right? Or that boxing out for rebounds is actually important!


And they should have the ability to comprehend that in any competitive sport, It takes effort if you realistically expect to win right?I understand that building true chemistry takes time. And I'm not advocating for any immediate roster changes. I'm merely expecting to see some reasonable defensive adjustments made by team as a whole, just as every other nba team makes adjustments throughout the season to address their issues. Isn't that what coaches are paid to do? Help a team make adjustments in order to play at their optimal abilities.

Again, I'm not asking for perfection. Just modest improvements such as actually boxing out, getting engaged defensively, and playing with energy and consistent effort. I just don't see why it should take 25 games or longer to figure out how to play a competitive sport with energy or actually box out. Things that are again basic fundamentals of basketball. And things that are simply common sense. And as far as being professional basketball players that essentially are paid millions just to play, shouldn't that be incentive enough to play with actual consistent effort and energy? Ultimately, I hope that you're right man, And that the majority of our deficiencies will be remedied by Aytons' return. Also that Monty will straighten the team out and get them back into a positive rythym. Else the highlight of our season will be the first few games of the season, and pushing any aspirations back yet another year with hopes of returning to some modicum of relevance and respect.

[Ghost of Kleine]

I agree consistency throughout the game is the most desirable outcome. Let them play or call it tight, but do it from start to finish. However, as fans we tend to be biased with officiating our team, especially in a loss. Just because something looks like a foul doesn't mean it is. Especially in the last few minutes when players are trying to bait the refs to stop the clock and get the free throws.

There are missed calls, and incorrect calls on both sides. Every game.We did not lose this game because of the officiating. Maybe if the officials kept their whistles in their pockets at the end there we could have STOLEN the game at the end, but we deserved to lose this game. Coaches and players failed tonight. No adjustments were made. Our defense was a joke, our rebounding was a mess. As usual we rely to heavily on the three, and we shot it awfully tonight.

I agree, defense is the biggest factor for us. But I disagree with your assessment of Ayton's impact. When Ayton returns that'll move Baynes to the bench and drop minutes for Kaminsky. Those moves alone will improve rebounding and defense in the paint. Then you factor in Ayton being in the post offensively, or being active on the offensive boards ( he had 3 on opening night) will mean less 3pt jacking (presumably) which will result in less transition opportunities for our opponent. This all allows our defense to be or set each play. Then it comes down to repetitions and communication. Knowing to talk on switches, show and recover on PnR, rotate from the weakside, etc. These aren't things that come together in a flash. They take time. We have the personnel. Just watch Cam Johnson off the ball next game. The kid always sees the play and rotates. Doesn't always fix the issue but you can see that he has the IQ. Just will take time. Bridges is the same way. Baynes sees is. Saric sees it. Unfortunately guys like Oubre and at times Booker/Rubio let their man blow by them way too much.

It's perfectly fine that we disagree on Aytons' impact. I'm cool with that. Now your argument for Aytons' impact is based upon the concept of Baynes moving to a bench role and thusly Frank's minutes being reduced will eliminate the lack of athleticism in the post, I can agree with that to a degree. And that as a result it would theoretically improve our defense in the post. So more or less addition by subtraction by removing Kaminskys' lack of athleticism right? However, That assertion is highly dependent upon Ayton returning as a dominant and vocal defensive leader whom would hold his entire team accountable on the defensive end. ( something Monty thus far has apparently been unable to do) Although it still wouldn't address Sarics' equally poor athleticism in the post, But to his credit he does give good effort. As evidenced by Baynes( who's already plays a lot more dominantly and physically in the post than what Ayton has shown thus far). And Baynes' inability to cover defensively for either Sarics' or Kaminskys' sub par defense. And Ayton is to this date still more of a finesse player, despite his quite impressive athletic advantages.

Please don't get me wrong, I would absolutely love for that to be the case, Wherein he utilized this time to become a dominant and vocal leader for this team. But I unfortunately have yet to see any evidence of that imminently coming to fruition. Although I will keep my fingers crossed. So, in my opinion, Even with Ayton returning, And Baynes moving to the bench and Kaminskys' role getting reduced, I still don't see how that will stop the constant dribble penetration and easy scoring at the rim, Unless Monty somehow gets everyone operating on their rotations properly. I mean obviously Ayton is mobile, But he can't always be everywhere at once to cover for any/all defensive lapses. So whilst I do fully agree with you on the improvement in our team's rebounding, I can't yet fully agree upon our post defense improvement until I see Aytons' newfound toughness and tenacity upon his return? Will he have it finally, Or will he revert back to his happy go lucky easygoing, " just want to make it to my 2nd contract" finesse persona? I guess we'll see in that regard....lol.

Also, I can of course agree with you that his rebounding will help create better looks on the perimeter for our shooters as a result of the gravity that he creates, and also that his rebounding MAY help us get in better defensive sets. However, getting into defensive sets is only half of the issue, as again it seems our basic defensive fundamentals are lacking and as a result, our rotations and help defense are terrible.

I just don't feel that Ayton alone, Or even with Baynes additionally staggered, Can just by their sheer presence, instill or repair the apparent lack of fundamentals defensively or the necessary tenacity, toughness and consistent effort that has been consistently lacking, Unless again, He has miraculously figured out how to become a dominant defender and a vocal leader for our team. And lead by example defensively. And IF he isn't that upon his return, And our team doesn't buy in like we did at the start of the season, Then he'll of course still make a good impact in terms of points and scoring on the glass. And Baynes will of course add toughness to our bench too. ( ***yet still not addressing our frontcourt defensive weaknesses at the 4). But overall, it still won't be enough to likely carry us into the playoffs. Again, I'm just not seeing how he alone can improve or fully fix or porous perimeter defense and lazy perimeter defensive rotations, That clearly stems from our team's constant apathetic and underwhelming effort. That's the responsibility of the coach, and ultimately the players to hold each other accountable and operate as a team. And we quite obviously should have at least made a few of those corrections by now, Even with Ayton out.


Now I understand that with a young team, certain aspects take time. But were almost 25 games in now, how much more time should it realistically take professional basketball players to learn and exhibit basic defensive fundamentals? Even worse, Why do they need this much time to be able to fully understand the importance of playing consistently with effort ? ( isn't that common sense in competition). Also, Aren't the majority of these issues such as boxing out, basic defensive rotations on the pick and roll, and perimeter defense schemes already things that they should have a full understanding of, as they're obviously implemented even at the high school and college levels of basketball.
So yes, I can agree that he'll absolutely improve certain areas of need. "But one man, or even two does not a team make" as they say. He may be able to carry us for periods on occasion. But without a concerted team effort, We'll still ultimately lose. And these are things that we should be overcoming even without him as a professional basketball team honestly.

This team has essentially won 20 games for the last 5 years, it was never going to flip around completely in one year and the fact we are competing for a playoff spot or even talking about it is a minor miracle. The hot start got all the fans and people on this board expectations all out of whack of what is realistic. Everyone just needs a little reality check and yes we should all be more than happy we are talking about the playoffs, at the beginning of the year every Suns fan would have been happy with 25 wins and progress we are 3 steps ahead of that now without our 2nd best player and a multitude of injuries.

Absolutely fair assessment man. And honestly accurate too. I think for my part, I'm just fustrated by the general lack of effort, lack of intestinal fortitude, and most of all the lack of hunger to compete, resulting in our fustrating inconsistencies. I fully understand that we are on track to exceed expectations from last year, But that doesn't mean that I simply can be setting the bar so low after seeing what this team was capable of when they actually put forth a strong effort, Even in Aytons' absence at the beginning of the season. I just don't see it as an anomaly more than a general lack of effort and apathy. I'm just disappointed that we aren't hungry enough to scrap and fight and try and prove something other than that we can win a few more more games than we did last year whilst still maintaining our reputation as a lottery team. We've shown that when we actually compete AS A TEAM that despite our modest roster of cast offs, That we can compete with anybody. Then we just for whatever reason chose to stop competing and put forth a half azz poor effort. I just expect more for my part.

But good post and very solid points man.

[Phystic]

Really disappointing to see the low level of intensity and focus we brought to this game. Especially Booker. Why is he so **** inconsistent? Baynes is now rushing his threes a bit since defenses have begun paying respect. Jerome was awful.

Rubio's been our best player overall this season. That's not going to get it done.

****. Losses at home to the Wizards and Grizzlies. Really undermines the improvement we'd demonstrated early on in the season.

Ayton has to save this franchise. And frankly, he's the only player I'd consider untouchable in trade this summer. Not looking to deal Booker, but I don't think there's much chance for improvement aside from just tightening up and getting more consistent. Good enough to be an All-Star. Good enough to be the second best player on a solid playoff team. Third best on a championship team, maybe second if your squad is all-around legit.

Can't believe how bad we screwed up this rebuild. GDI. We might just be heading back into the dreaded "malaise." I don't know if I could bear it. Save ME Deandre!

Good lord man take a step off the edge and take a breath.

How can you possible say we screwed up this rebuild when our team looks much better than it has the last few years, and that's without Ayton, with our starting(should be backup) C Baynes missing half the season, and Rubio missing a few games. Did you really expect our team to go from sub 20 wins to contender over a single summer? We have Booker, Ayton, Bridges, Cam and possibly Oubre/Jerome as a young core. Then Baynes and Rubio has talented veterans, meanwhile we are in the bottom third in payroll and have another 35m coming off the books this summer with no real player we HAVE to resign. We haven't gone all in on any trades that have cost us cap or assets, we haven't given out any insane contracts(Oubre/Rubio are reasonable contracts).

How can you possible say Booker has been inconsistent? He's averaging the best shooting numbers of his career and still putting up 25ppg. He's still not a good defender, but he's shown more effort this year than the past few.

[Phystic]

It's perfectly fine that we disagree on Aytons' impact. I'm cool with that. Now your argument for Aytons' impact is based upon the concept of Baynes moving to a bench role and thusly Frank's minutes being reduced will eliminate the lack of athleticism in the post, I can agree with that to a degree. And that as a result it would theoretically improve our defense in the post. So more or less addition by subtraction by removing Kaminskys' lack of athleticism right? However, That assertion is highly dependent upon Ayton returning as a dominant and vocal defensive leader whom would hold his entire team accountable on the defensive end. ( something Monty thus far has apparently been unable to do) Although it still wouldn't address Sarics' equally poor athleticism in the post, But to his credit he does give good effort. As evidenced by Baynes( who's already plays a lot more dominantly and physically in the post than what Ayton has shown thus far). And Baynes' inability to cover defensively for either Sarics' or Kaminskys' sub par defense. And Ayton is to this date still more of a finesse player, despite his quite impressive athletic advantages.

Please don't get me wrong, I would absolutely love for that to be the case, Wherein he utilized this time to become a dominant and vocal leader for this team. But I unfortunately have yet to see any evidence of that imminently coming to fruition. Although I will keep my fingers crossed. So, in my opinion, Even with Ayton returning, And Baynes moving to the bench and Kaminskys' role getting reduced, I still don't see how that will stop the constant dribble penetration and easy scoring at the rim, Unless Monty somehow gets everyone operating on their rotations properly. I mean obviously Ayton is mobile, But he can't always be everywhere at once to cover for any/all defensive lapses. So whilst I do fully agree with you on the improvement in our team's rebounding, I can't yet fully agree upon our post defense improvement until I see Aytons' newfound toughness and tenacity upon his return? Will he have it finally, Or will he revert back to his happy go lucky easygoing, " just want to make it to my 2nd contract" finesse persona? I guess we'll see in that regard....lol.

Also, I can of course agree with you that his rebounding will help create better looks on the perimeter for our shooters as a result of the gravity that he creates, and also that his rebounding MAY help us get in better defensive sets. However, getting into defensive sets is only half of the issue, as again it seems our basic defensive fundamentals are lacking and as a result, our rotations and help defense are terrible.

I just don't feel that Ayton alone, Or even with Baynes additionally staggered, Can just by their sheer presence, instill or repair the apparent lack of fundamentals defensively or the necessary tenacity, toughness and consistent effort that has been consistently lacking, Unless again, He has miraculously figured out how to become a dominant defender and a vocal leader for our team. And lead by example defensively. And IF he isn't that upon his return, And our team doesn't buy in like we did at the start of the season, Then he'll of course still make a good impact in terms of points and scoring on the glass. And Baynes will of course add toughness to our bench too. ( ***yet still not addressing our frontcourt defensive weaknesses at the 4). But overall, it still won't be enough to likely carry us into the playoffs. Again, I'm just not seeing how he alone can improve or fully fix or porous perimeter defense and lazy perimeter defensive rotations, That clearly stems from our team's constant apathetic and underwhelming effort. That's the responsibility of the coach, and ultimately the players to hold each other accountable and operate as a team. And we quite obviously should have at least made a few of those corrections by now, Even with Ayton out.


Now I understand that with a young team, certain aspects take time. But were almost 25 games in now, how much more time should it realistically take professional basketball players to learn and exhibit basic defensive fundamentals? Even worse, Why do they need this much time to be able to fully understand the importance of playing consistently with effort ? ( isn't that common sense in competition). Also, Aren't the majority of these issues such as boxing out, basic defensive rotations on the pick and roll, and perimeter defense schemes already things that they should have a full understanding of, as they're obviously implemented even at the high school and college levels of basketball.
So yes, I can agree that he'll absolutely improve certain areas of need. "But one man, or even two does not a team make" as they say. He may be able to carry us for periods on occasion. But without a concerted team effort, We'll still ultimately lose. And these are things that we should be overcoming even without him as a professional basketball team honestly.

That's the thing, I don't think Ayton needs to be come back as a defensive monster for his impact to have a ripple effect. With him back our front court rotations get some much needed flexibility. So we can do more matchup based rotations than we currently can. I didn't mean to imply Ayton's return will absolutely fix our defense and move us up the ranks. But I do think it'll improve, if for nothing else than DEFENSIVE REBOUNDING. Though As I said, Ayton's PnR defense is superior to Saric, Kaminsky and Baynes so that too should help as teams won't be able to attack him as aggressively in that regard. And I agree Saric's lack of athleticism is still an issue. But unfortunately the only remedy to that is to bench or trade him. I think we should look into moving him as with how Monty utilizes him he's redundant with Kaminsky. Saric offers more skills, than he currently allowed to show unfortunately.

You think 25 games is enough time for such a young team to completely come together in every regard? I wouldn't be even remotely shocked if we don't see massive improvement until the end of the year or beginning of next year. Our training camp had to introduce so many new things and players. And then we lost Ayton so everything that they did learn is now irrelevant as they are having to adjust. I think people need to be patient. We can all see the team has the tools, it's just a matter of giving them time to full gel. And that includes Monty. Coaches have to learn just like Players do. I'm shocked that once again so many people are hating on Monty. It's crazy how fickle fans can be.

Fair points really, and I will agree on your points that Ayton will be superior defensively in comparison to either Saric or Kaminsky if based upon athleticism alone. So there is hope there certainly. But I'll still have my strong concerns over the overall general lack of team defensive fundamentals. Such as lack of proper defensive rotations, helping out by hedging on pick n' roll dribble penetration to close down straight paths to the hoop as we don't have a competent rim protector. So obviously such basic defensive fundamentals become critically important in the absence of Ayton/ and or Baynes. The other issue I have with regards to the lack of basic defensive fundamentals is in the unwillingness or inability to box out! Yes Ayton will of course help somewhat in that regard, But is he going to be expected to be at the hoop 100% of the time to alleviate any rebounding issues? What if the opposing teams pull him out from the post? Who gets the rebound then.

My point is that these are team issues that should be taught and/or addressed in practice and through drills, not based under the assumption that one player alone or even two players regardless of athletic ability should have to consistently shoulder the burden alone. Rebound by committee as they say. And whilst I absolutely do agree that it does take time for a team and coach to get familiarized with each other and gel, Isn't that the purpose of the preseason and also training camp? Furthermore, the issues that I'm focusing on are what I consider to be basic fundamentals of basketball, That are taught even as early as high school and in college too.

These are professional basketball players. It's not like they just picked up a basketball for the first time this season. Are we supposed to just assume that they forgot how to box out for rebounds, play perimeter defense, guard on pick and rolls. Even kids playing pickup basketball or recreational ball players have a basic understanding of rebounding and defense.

So whilst it does of course take time for a team to gel together. Our critical issues are basic defensive fundamentals that any competent basketball player should be familiar with, especially veterans in the league. Now if it's a matter of changing defensive schemes, Then yes, there'll obviously be a period of adjustments. But there has yet to be any discernible evidence of a defensive scheme whatsoever. Moreover the general lack of effort or interest in even playing consistent defense and getting stops is an even bigger issue. So yes, it's completely honestly understandable that new defensive schemes will take some time to adjust to. But the complete lack of being engaged defensively is a matter of choice and commitment to puttting forth the effort. And if a team is not showing any real consistency defensively, Then it's again a coaching issue that should be being addressed accordingly in practice through defensive drills.

So I'm sorry if I seem impatient, But again, This team has had training camp, and preseason IN ADDITION TO the already 25 games into the season to address potential defensive issues and become familiar with one another. I mean it couldn't have been that big of an enigma that both Kaminsky and Saric are sub par defenders right? Or that boxing out for rebounds is actually important!


And they should have the ability to comprehend that in any competitive sport, It takes effort if you realistically expect to win right?I understand that building true chemistry takes time. And I'm not advocating for any immediate roster changes. I'm merely expecting to see some reasonable defensive adjustments made by team as a whole, just as every other nba team makes adjustments throughout the season to address their issues. Isn't that what coaches are paid to do? Help a team make adjustments in order to play at their optimal abilities.

Again, I'm not asking for perfection. Just modest improvements such as actually boxing out, getting engaged defensively, and playing with energy and consistent effort. I just don't see why it should take 25 games or longer to figure out how to play a competitive sport with energy or actually box out. Things that are again basic fundamentals of basketball. And things that are simply common sense. And as far as being professional basketball players that essentially are paid millions just to play, shouldn't that be incentive enough to play with actual consistent effort and energy? Ultimately, I hope that you're right man, And that the majority of our deficiencies will be remedied by Aytons' return. Also that Monty will straighten the team out and get them back into a positive rythym. Else the highlight of our season will be the first few games of the season, and pushing any aspirations back yet another year with hopes of returning to some modicum of relevance and respect.

I agree, still a lot of improvements to be made by everyone. Ayton won't be, and can't be, responsible for the defense. I guess my main point is everyone needs to take a step back and be more realistic. Everyone got so overhyped because of our quick start, i was seeing people saying we are one piece from be a top contender, we are 50+ win team, we will fight for home court, etc. Just completely ridiculous claims and expectations.

Our team needs to be more fundamentally sound defensively, rotations, communications, understanding how to play defense as a whole. Then yes boxing out has been possibly our biggest issue. I don't think we are as bad as you are saying. We have games where we are very active on the glass, show a lot of fight, a lot of energy. But we are a very young team. There are going to be ups and downs. Young players get down when they miss some shots, and then they get frustrated or make stupid, risky decisions. Even last night Booker after missing 4-5 straight shots at the end of the first half ( I think it was), reached in with like a minute left and fouled 80 feet from the basket, giving them two free throws. Just silly, stupid youthful issues.

I'm still very happy with our core, tweaks need to be made with our personnel. And then the coaching staff needs to put in some work in practice. One of Saric or Kamisnky should probably be traded. Maybe see if we can package him with Tyler Johnson or Carter and move him for a more defensive big man. Then we would have a nice dichotomy of offense/defense with Ayton/Baynes, Saric(or Kamisnky)/traded player. Coach needs to sit down with Oubre and real in his nonsense. I know fans love it, and his energy can be great for a team. But usually his personality on the court screws up more than it helps.

[ATTL]

Good news is we whiffed so badly in the 2016 and 2017 draft that we don't need to toe up money in their rookie extensions. Thank you Ryan, 4D chess. Truly a blessing in the skies.

[Revived]

Brandon Clarke is gonna make 20 NBA teams look stupid for passing on him. He has AD type potential defensively while being an excellent floor spacer offensively.

Basically the perfect qualities of the modern era PF.

[Ghost of Kleine]

That's the thing, I don't think Ayton needs to be come back as a defensive monster for his impact to have a ripple effect. With him back our front court rotations get some much needed flexibility. So we can do more matchup based rotations than we currently can. I didn't mean to imply Ayton's return will absolutely fix our defense and move us up the ranks. But I do think it'll improve, if for nothing else than DEFENSIVE REBOUNDING. Though As I said, Ayton's PnR defense is superior to Saric, Kaminsky and Baynes so that too should help as teams won't be able to attack him as aggressively in that regard. And I agree Saric's lack of athleticism is still an issue. But unfortunately the only remedy to that is to bench or trade him. I think we should look into moving him as with how Monty utilizes him he's redundant with Kaminsky. Saric offers more skills, than he currently allowed to show unfortunately.

You think 25 games is enough time for such a young team to completely come together in every regard? I wouldn't be even remotely shocked if we don't see massive improvement until the end of the year or beginning of next year. Our training camp had to introduce so many new things and players. And then we lost Ayton so everything that they did learn is now irrelevant as they are having to adjust. I think people need to be patient. We can all see the team has the tools, it's just a matter of giving them time to full gel. And that includes Monty. Coaches have to learn just like Players do. I'm shocked that once again so many people are hating on Monty. It's crazy how fickle fans can be.

Fair points really, and I will agree on your points that Ayton will be superior defensively in comparison to either Saric or Kaminsky if based upon athleticism alone. So there is hope there certainly. But I'll still have my strong concerns over the overall general lack of team defensive fundamentals. Such as lack of proper defensive rotations, helping out by hedging on pick n' roll dribble penetration to close down straight paths to the hoop as we don't have a competent rim protector. So obviously such basic defensive fundamentals become critically important in the absence of Ayton/ and or Baynes. The other issue I have with regards to the lack of basic defensive fundamentals is in the unwillingness or inability to box out! Yes Ayton will of course help somewhat in that regard, But is he going to be expected to be at the hoop 100% of the time to alleviate any rebounding issues? What if the opposing teams pull him out from the post? Who gets the rebound then.

My point is that these are team issues that should be taught and/or addressed in practice and through drills, not based under the assumption that one player alone or even two players regardless of athletic ability should have to consistently shoulder the burden alone. Rebound by committee as they say. And whilst I absolutely do agree that it does take time for a team and coach to get familiarized with each other and gel, Isn't that the purpose of the preseason and also training camp? Furthermore, the issues that I'm focusing on are what I consider to be basic fundamentals of basketball, That are taught even as early as high school and in college too.

These are professional basketball players. It's not like they just picked up a basketball for the first time this season. Are we supposed to just assume that they forgot how to box out for rebounds, play perimeter defense, guard on pick and rolls. Even kids playing pickup basketball or recreational ball players have a basic understanding of rebounding and defense.

So whilst it does of course take time for a team to gel together. Our critical issues are basic defensive fundamentals that any competent basketball player should be familiar with, especially veterans in the league. Now if it's a matter of changing defensive schemes, Then yes, there'll obviously be a period of adjustments. But there has yet to be any discernible evidence of a defensive scheme whatsoever. Moreover the general lack of effort or interest in even playing consistent defense and getting stops is an even bigger issue. So yes, it's completely honestly understandable that new defensive schemes will take some time to adjust to. But the complete lack of being engaged defensively is a matter of choice and commitment to puttting forth the effort. And if a team is not showing any real consistency defensively, Then it's again a coaching issue that should be being addressed accordingly in practice through defensive drills.

So I'm sorry if I seem impatient, But again, This team has had training camp, and preseason IN ADDITION TO the already 25 games into the season to address potential defensive issues and become familiar with one another. I mean it couldn't have been that big of an enigma that both Kaminsky and Saric are sub par defenders right? Or that boxing out for rebounds is actually important!


And they should have the ability to comprehend that in any competitive sport, It takes effort if you realistically expect to win right?I understand that building true chemistry takes time. And I'm not advocating for any immediate roster changes. I'm merely expecting to see some reasonable defensive adjustments made by team as a whole, just as every other nba team makes adjustments throughout the season to address their issues. Isn't that what coaches are paid to do? Help a team make adjustments in order to play at their optimal abilities.

Again, I'm not asking for perfection. Just modest improvements such as actually boxing out, getting engaged defensively, and playing with energy and consistent effort. I just don't see why it should take 25 games or longer to figure out how to play a competitive sport with energy or actually box out. Things that are again basic fundamentals of basketball. And things that are simply common sense. And as far as being professional basketball players that essentially are paid millions just to play, shouldn't that be incentive enough to play with actual consistent effort and energy? Ultimately, I hope that you're right man, And that the majority of our deficiencies will be remedied by Aytons' return. Also that Monty will straighten the team out and get them back into a positive rythym. Else the highlight of our season will be the first few games of the season, and pushing any aspirations back yet another year with hopes of returning to some modicum of relevance and respect.

I agree, still a lot of improvements to be made by everyone. Ayton won't be, and can't be, responsible for the defense. I guess my main point is everyone needs to take a step back and be more realistic. Everyone got so overhyped because of our quick start, i was seeing people saying we are one piece from be a top contender, we are 50+ win team, we will fight for home court, etc. Just completely ridiculous claims and expectations.

Our team needs to be more fundamentally sound defensively, rotations, communications, understanding how to play defense as a whole. Then yes boxing out has been possibly our biggest issue. I don't think we are as bad as you are saying. We have games where we are very active on the glass, show a lot of fight, a lot of energy. But we are a very young team. There are going to be ups and downs. Young players get down when they miss some shots, and then they get frustrated or make stupid, risky decisions. Even last night Booker after missing 4-5 straight shots at the end of the first half ( I think it was), reached in with like a minute left and fouled 80 feet from the basket, giving them two free throws. Just silly, stupid youthful issues.

I'm still very happy with our core, tweaks need to be made with our personnel. And then the coaching staff needs to put in some work in practice. One of Saric or Kamisnky should probably be traded. Maybe see if we can package him with Tyler Johnson or Carter and move him for a more defensive big man. Then we would have a nice dichotomy of offense/defense with Ayton/Baynes, Saric(or Kamisnky)/traded player. Coach needs to sit down with Oubre and real in his nonsense. I know fans love it, and his energy can be great for a team. But usually his personality on the court screws up more than it helps.

Very solid and astute observations man. And I completely agree with all of your points. And It's definitely good to temper expectations for the time being as well. I just hope that everything develops accordingly. Anf our young team can manage to regain focus and be competitive again this season. There's definitely a lot of considerations yet to be made in the coming months, It's looking to be a bumpy ride though. Anyways, Thanks for your insights and for your perspective. It's greatly appreciated.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Really disappointing to see the low level of intensity and focus we brought to this game. Especially Booker. Why is he so **** inconsistent? Baynes is now rushing his threes a bit since defenses have begun paying respect. Jerome was awful.

Rubio's been our best player overall this season. That's not going to get it done.

****. Losses at home to the Wizards and Grizzlies. Really undermines the improvement we'd demonstrated early on in the season.

Ayton has to save this franchise. And frankly, he's the only player I'd consider untouchable in trade this summer. Not looking to deal Booker, but I don't think there's much chance for improvement aside from just tightening up and getting more consistent. Good enough to be an All-Star. Good enough to be the second best player on a solid playoff team. Third best on a championship team, maybe second if your squad is all-around legit.

Can't believe how bad we screwed up this rebuild. GDI. We might just be heading back into the dreaded "malaise." I don't know if I could bear it. Save ME Deandre!

Good lord man take a step off the edge and take a breath.

How can you possible say we screwed up this rebuild when our team looks much better than it has the last few years, and that's without Ayton, with our starting(should be backup) C Baynes missing half the season, and Rubio missing a few games. Did you really expect our team to go from sub 20 wins to contender over a single summer? We have Booker, Ayton, Bridges, Cam and possibly Oubre/Jerome as a young core. Then Baynes and Rubio has talented veterans, meanwhile we are in the bottom third in payroll and have another 35m coming off the books this summer with no real player we HAVE to resign. We haven't gone all in on any trades that have cost us cap or assets, we haven't given out any insane contracts(Oubre/Rubio are reasonable contracts).

How can you possible say Booker has been inconsistent? He's averaging the best shooting numbers of his career and still putting up 25ppg. He's still not a good defender, but he's shown more effort this year than the past few.

We sucked for seven seasons, 2012-13 through 2018-19. And for all that suffering, we have what we have today, the core you mentioned. I think it's obvious that to contend for a title, you need one of the league's top 5-ish players. And where do you get those players? Generally, the draft. Once every two-three years a player of that quality gets traded or signs with a team not based in a great coastal city. So yeah, you tank so you can get a high draft pick, and with all those high and extra chances, you hope to get one of those top-caliber players.

The reason for my despair is simple. Despite his improvements, this season has convinced me that Booker will never be one of those top players. He's fully-grown, with a highly-developed game and as much experience as a guy his age who hasn't been to the playoffs can have. The great players are the ones who carry a team like the Suns to wins on days like yesterday. Great players don't get outplayed by Dillon Brooks down the stretch. Booker ain't running with a bunch of scrubs anymore: he just wasn't good enough to carry this team down the stretch. Instead, we saw Ja Morant lead his team to victory, in our house, without the benefit of many experienced veteran teammates.

Mikal ain't gonna be a great player, just a good one. Same for Cam. Oubre is a good NBA player but won't be more than that. Jerome hasn't shown any indication of being a high-ceiling player (though I too hold out hope). Maybe one day he'll be on Goran Dragic's level. Cool. But after seven years of rebuilding, this?

I don't mean to be this cruel in my assessment of these players. I like these players. It's not their fault that they're just good, and not great. But it does suck. It means we *still* need to hit a draft pick out of the park in the future if we want to compete for a championship, and now, because we're no longer rebuilding, the odds of that happening are remote for the foreseeable future. AND it means that all of these players, including Booker, will become expendable as we build around Ayton - or no one.

.... Yeah. I should get off the ledge. It's a decade-long drop down that cliff of despair. Fortunately, I'm in my thirties, so I have plenty of time to wait for this team to win, with whomever those players might be, in whatever city they're playing in by then.

[lilfishi22]

His defense is infuriating. He gambles and stats and big plays look good, but he has no idea about team D. And then driving into 4 defenders. It works once and everyone gets excited but 75% of the time he tries that it's bad results. Zero offensive IQ too....0 assists, 2 turnovers.

The biggest plus for him is he seems to be the only guy with enough energy to go after rebounds. It's amazing we never try for offensive boards. I know there is a balance between that and transition D and if you have bad rebounders, transition D might be better, but we should still leave two people there to go for them...if you still have 3 back there won't be a fastbreak as usually the other team has 3-4 guys making sure they get the defensive rebound.

And then we allow so many offensive rebounds for the other team. Ayton will have a huge impact here, and Baynes can't jump well, but damn, sometimes it's amazing how many offensive rebounds we allow.

There are a couple things that Oubre does way better than Bridges and Cam, and I think those two things makes him the favourite SF for Monty:

1. We run a play for Oubre in the halfcourt that is really effective. We usually give him the ball in the right side and then a PF/C puts an screen for him to go down hill to finish with his strong hand (left).

That play is done too with Oubre off the ball, it is just a curl going to his left to try to finish in trafic.

Oubre is really good going to his left and that play is always a good option for us. He gets a lof of fouls, he is really difficult to stop because of his athleticism and fearless.

That set reminds me of one play that we used a lot when we had Jason Richardson on the team. It was a simple curl going to the right, but like Oubre, Richarson was so athletic and strong that was very difficult to any team to stop that play.

We can not do that same set for Cam or Bridges. They are not good enough going to the rim as Oubre, at least not for now.

2. Rebounding.

Oubre is a great rebounder for his position. He jumps a lot and he has the desire to go inside and fight. He enjoys the battle for real.

He touches and bothers a lot around the rim, it is not only important the number of clean boards that he gets per game, he creates havoc trying to rebound.

That is another advantage that he has over Bridges and Cam who are worse overall rebounders.

Obviously his low basketball IQ is there, but he adds a lot to the team. I am happy with his performance so far this season.

I agree about the rebounding. I don't agree he is tough to stop, mainly because he dribbles into several defenders very often. Low efficiency. Avg to bad offense and bad defense. Good rebounding though and some of his gambles pay off. I think with Ayton his value lessens because the rebounding might be more useful in second unit. Baynes hasn't been a great rebounder. Saric is good with Ayton. With Ayton's D along with Saric's and Booker's, Mikal's would be better.

I am still happier with Oubre's play than last year. Probably not enough to justify what he makes, but at least it expires next year.

Agree with your assessment of Oubre. A lot of the success of his drives into traffic is getting the foul call and he's just not the calibre of player that would get the benefit of the doubt and I don't think he's great finisher either. Combine those two factors and you have a guy that likes to drive in, often into traffic hoping to get the whistle, not pass out and has to shoot a well defended attempt. Don't get me wrong, on a good night those shots go in and he's getting the whistle two but other nights it's just tough to watch because he'll just continue to keep going to that move.

I actually think his rebounding and help defense around the rim is more impactful than his drives to the basket.

[lilfishi22]

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Dirty

[Desertfox]

Brandon Clarke is gonna make 20 NBA teams look stupid for passing on him. He has AD type potential defensively while being an excellent floor spacer offensively.

Basically the perfect qualities of the modern era PF.

The Suns had this huge hole at PF that he could fill perfectly and they passed on him for TJ Warren 2.0...

[lilfishi22]

To be fair Cam is a very different payer to TJ. I don't think he's the volume scorer TJ is because he's not as versatile. He's definitely a better shooter but when it comes to putting the ball on the floor, finishing in the paint and even iso scenarios, TJ was already better from the beginning of his NBA career.

We drafted a 6'9 JJ Reddick (not college Reddick, NBA Reddick) which is still a very useful player but in terms of what we needed now and into the future, I don't think we drafted the right guy.

[lilfishi22]

Now I understand that with a young team, certain aspects take time. But were almost 25 games in now, how much more time should it realistically take professional basketball players to learn and exhibit basic defensive fundamentals? Even worse, Why do they need this much time to be able to fully understand the importance of playing consistently with effort ? ( isn't that common sense in competition). Also, Aren't the majority of these issues such as boxing out, basic defensive rotations on the pick and roll, and perimeter defense schemes already things that they should have a full understanding of, as they're obviously implemented even at the high school and college levels of basketball.

I agree totally agree with this part. The rest also had really good points.

Also Ty Jerome looks terrible. Never saw him in college so I have clue what his game was supposed to translate into but so far he's a slow footed guard who can't dribble or control the ball.

He's defintely not league guard material in the NBA. I didn't think he was coming out of college and I don't think he's likely to be now that I've watched him in the NBA.

I always saw him as your typical European guard, isn't very athletic but has good size, good fundamentals (aside from his ball handling) and very high basketball IQ. Greivis Vásquez and Jose Calderon were two player comps I've seen.

[WeekapaugGroove]

To be fair Cam is a very different payer to TJ. I don't think he's the volume scorer TJ is because he's not as versatile. He's definitely a better shooter but when it comes to putting the ball on the floor, finishing in the paint and even iso scenarios, TJ was already better from the beginning of his NBA career.

We drafted a 6'9 JJ Reddick (not college Reddick, NBA Reddick) which is still a very useful player but in terms of what we needed now and into the future, I don't think we drafted the right guy.

Yeah looks like Clarke or Washington would have been the 'right' picks. But I do really like Cam and honestly if they did a redraft I think he'd go about where he did in the draft.

Oh and I'm sticking to my korver comp I think Reddick is a better ball handler but Cams bigger.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

[lilfishi22]

To be fair Cam is a very different payer to TJ. I don't think he's the volume scorer TJ is because he's not as versatile. He's definitely a better shooter but when it comes to putting the ball on the floor, finishing in the paint and even iso scenarios, TJ was already better from the beginning of his NBA career.

We drafted a 6'9 JJ Reddick (not college Reddick, NBA Reddick) which is still a very useful player but in terms of what we needed now and into the future, I don't think we drafted the right guy.

Yeah looks like Clarke or Washington would have been the 'right' picks. But I do really like Cam and honestly if they did a redraft I think he'd go about where he did in the draft.

Oh and I'm sticking to my korver comp I think Reddick is a better ball handler but Cams bigger.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

Yeah Korver is a good comp too

I've come around on Cam *a lot*. I think he's a key player in the rotation already purely only his shooting abilities and gravity that comes with it. I thought the transition will take longer but presumed he would get there by the season's end but he's already almost there now about 25 games into the season. I hated on him when we drafted him because I thought he was taken too high and we drafted a guy that wasn't really playing a position of need (we already had Bridges, Oubre and TJ/JJ at the time.

It still doesn't change the fact that we didn't really need a Cam and guys who play like Cam aren't that difficult to find. Hell a guy like Davis Bertans was drafted in the mid-2nd round and does essentially everything Cam does. These types of players just aren't that hard to find. But a player that has a real game-changing impact on the defensive end is which was why I was flabbergasted when we passed on Clarke.

[WeekapaugGroove]

To be fair Cam is a very different payer to TJ. I don't think he's the volume scorer TJ is because he's not as versatile. He's definitely a better shooter but when it comes to putting the ball on the floor, finishing in the paint and even iso scenarios, TJ was already better from the beginning of his NBA career.

We drafted a 6'9 JJ Reddick (not college Reddick, NBA Reddick) which is still a very useful player but in terms of what we needed now and into the future, I don't think we drafted the right guy.

Yeah looks like Clarke or Washington would have been the 'right' picks. But I do really like Cam and honestly if they did a redraft I think he'd go about where he did in the draft.

Oh and I'm sticking to my korver comp I think Reddick is a better ball handler but Cams bigger.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

Yeah Korver is a good comp too

I've come around on Cam *a lot*. I think he's a key player in the rotation already purely only his shooting abilities and gravity that comes with it. I thought the transition will take longer but presumed he would get there by the season's end but he's already almost there now about 25 games into the season. I hated on him when we drafted him because I thought he was taken too high and we drafted a guy that wasn't really playing a position of need (we already had Bridges, Oubre and TJ/JJ at the time.

It still doesn't change the fact that we didn't really need a Cam and guys who play like Cam aren't that difficult to find. Hell a guy like Davis Bertans was drafted in the mid-2nd round and does essentially everything Cam does. These types of players just aren't that hard to find. But a player that has a real game-changing impact on the defensive end is which was why I was flabbergasted when we passed on Clarke.

PJ Washington was my guy, still don't really understand why he wasn't considered a top 10 lock going into that poop draft. I worried about Clarke's icky shooting form but it's going in so I guess that was misguided worry. I did like him though and would have been fine taking him.

I didn't know Cam at all because I just assumed he wasn't on the suns radar and I generally didn't like this draft so didn't know much about anyone outside the top guys. I went in with an open mind on Cam and I've been impressed, I think he'll be a little more than a shooter because he's a high BBIQ guy.

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[PharmD]

Cam's shot and ability to draw charges are both super sweet and i love the guy.

Ty Jerome has 24 field goal attempts and 6 of them have been blocked. Getting 25% of your shots blocked is incredible really. Can't get any separation.