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Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32)

Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22, Kerrsed

Will Phoenix pull out the improbable and win 3 straight?

Yes
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71%
No
7
18%
couldn't care less
4
11%
 
Total votes: 38

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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#381 » by Revived » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:24 am

This is an awful, awful loss. Hawks are the worst team in the league missing a bunch of players on top.

Again we surrender 45% shooting from 3.

Okobo is such a disappointment. This was a game he should’ve went off in because of how bad his matchups are defensively.

Tyler Johnson is *****ing trash. He should never ever see an NBA court again.

I don’t understand how teams like Utah are making trades for competent backup SGs and James Jones is sitting on his ass like nothing needs be done in Phoenix.

Jordan Clarkson would be a big time upgrade over Tyler Johnson.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#382 » by Slim Charless » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:51 am

hollywood6964 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
hollywood6964 wrote:I don't think anything's as simple as that. But letting Rubio control the plays. Getting to his spots, spreading the floor. Getting plays ran for him and making quick decisions out of those plays. Getting back on defense. Not working so hard to get a whatever shot off n then whining about the no call. Other guys, like baynes, cam, bridges, saric, etc can get theirs too. This just inherently induces more effort from everybody because they play to shoot here n there as well.


There's so much to it. Even playing pick up, nobody wants to play with the gut who demands to make every play, whether it be scoring, passing, complaining, etc.

I totally agree with you that it's not as simple as that. Which is why when I see statement like Booker is the problem, I'm just a bit dumbfounded. I still see Booker as more the solution than a problem and right now, he's probably closer to being a neutral. And honestly, I don't really see many posts that's really crowning him a young superstar or future super star on this board (maybe there is but I probably glossed over it).

Most people, especially Suns fans, know these two things as facts:

1. He's a gift scorer
2. He's a horrible defender.

It's the other questions like, is he a winner? Can he be a winner? Those questions remain unanswered and at 24, it's probably not insane that there isn't a concrete answer yet. I'm not saying he couldn't do more to be a better player as an individual and for the team but I feel like some people think he's the root cause of why we suck when we lose games and that's just not the case. If Booker is the best player on this team, even with all the flaws in his game, isn't that more of a reflection on the team building aspect of this front office?

Sure why not. But he's got some Frankenstein's monster thing going on right now as well.

I've heard ppl say he's a great player, compare him to young Kobe, etc. So it's been there. But more of what I'm saying in my posts, is he thinks he's better than he is. He needs to draw back n let Rubio run offense. Even tonight, he should've let elie do more. It was no wonder when he went out of the game they made that big run in the third. It was fueled by defense and then everybody getting hungry charging down court on offense. Guys want to shoot, or make a nice pass. Not watch endlessly.

Oh and about can he be a winner, etc...yes! If he plays within the offense. Not only is that better, but it also leaves a lot of energy to at least put a hand around the area on defense. But this way? No. He's just not good enough to pull that off.

All this is my opinion, what do you think?



I'm sure I also come off as a Booker (and Ayton) defender-which I am to a degree. I don't always mean for it, but my posts relating to those 2 come off a bit more sarcastic and abrasive then I mean to sometimes. I do recognize Booker has his faults: his issues with defense which at this point of his career I'd hope he'd at least be making some strides in. He also chirps at refs way to much which might be why they don't give him-and the other suns as many calls, and he does seem to play the superman role too much. That last issue is one tho if it's not him then who? There's no one else on this team that's capable of hitting for 30 a night consistently-while being constantly dbl'd. In a perfect world I think Ayton and him can form a tough inside/outside team while Oubre does his thing off slashes to hoop and Cam is spotted up hitting the 3 from the outside. Hopefully that's Monty's plan but right now we're just not there.

Booker needs to do more no doubt but he is a very gifted scorer, I personally have never thought he was nowhere near Kobe's level or even T-mac. If we're doing the comparison thing he's almost dead even (or better than) this season numbers wide across the board with prime (04-07) Agent Zero but that's not necessarily a compliment. I think he can do better then that once he matures, picks his spots better and gets some more help from his teammates-who need to play their part by being less passive if they want the ball and the chance to score. Booker has his issues but these calls for trading him and that he's the root of the problem are a bit premature.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#383 » by Slim Charless » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:15 am

Revived wrote:This is an awful, awful loss. Hawks are the worst team in the league missing a bunch of players on top.

Again we surrender 45% shooting from 3.

Okobo is such a disappointment. This was a game he should’ve went off in because of how bad his matchups are defensively.

Tyler Johnson is *****ing trash. He should never ever see an NBA court again.

I don’t understand how teams like Utah are making trades for competent backup SGs and James Jones is sitting on his ass like nothing needs be done in Phoenix.

Jordan Clarkson would be a big time upgrade over Tyler Johnson.


Yeah that whole Okobo thing tonight was awful and unexpected. If that's our non-Rubio situation we need to make moves. Something hopefully will be done. NYK has both PGs and PFs in abundance and are rumored to be open to moving some. TJ and a 1st for Portis and take a shot in the dark at French Frank or even DSJ would help our depth and give us some young players at positions of need who we can buy low on.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#384 » by Saberestar » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:29 am

Slim Charless wrote:
Revived wrote:This is an awful, awful loss. Hawks are the worst team in the league missing a bunch of players on top.

Again we surrender 45% shooting from 3.

Okobo is such a disappointment. This was a game he should’ve went off in because of how bad his matchups are defensively.

Tyler Johnson is *****ing trash. He should never ever see an NBA court again.

I don’t understand how teams like Utah are making trades for competent backup SGs and James Jones is sitting on his ass like nothing needs be done in Phoenix.

Jordan Clarkson would be a big time upgrade over Tyler Johnson.


Yeah that whole Okobo thing tonight was awful and unexpected. If that's our non-Rubio situation we need to make moves. Something hopefully will be done. NYK has both PGs and PFs in abundance and are rumored to be open to moving some. TJ and a 1st for Portis and take a shot in the dark at French Frank or even DSJ would help our depth and give us some young players at positions of need who we can buy low on.

Yeah, we need badly another good PG/G, someone who can create shots.

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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#385 » by Slim Charless » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:36 am

Saberestar wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
Revived wrote:This is an awful, awful loss. Hawks are the worst team in the league missing a bunch of players on top.

Again we surrender 45% shooting from 3.

Okobo is such a disappointment. This was a game he should’ve went off in because of how bad his matchups are defensively.

Tyler Johnson is *****ing trash. He should never ever see an NBA court again.

I don’t understand how teams like Utah are making trades for competent backup SGs and James Jones is sitting on his ass like nothing needs be done in Phoenix.

Jordan Clarkson would be a big time upgrade over Tyler Johnson.


Yeah that whole Okobo thing tonight was awful and unexpected. If that's our non-Rubio situation we need to make moves. Something hopefully will be done. NYK has both PGs and PFs in abundance and are rumored to be open to moving some. TJ and a 1st for Portis and take a shot in the dark at French Frank or even DSJ would help our depth and give us some young players at positions of need who we can buy low on.

Yeah, we need badly another good PG/G, someone who can create shots.

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I'd happily take any the Knicks 3 PGs. All 3 are young and were drafted in the top 10 so they all have talent to some degree. They still can be salvaged especially if they play behind/learn from someone smart like Rubio. I guess we'll all get an up close view of these guys next game. Hopefully it ends in a win.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#386 » by Keith_myath » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:10 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
hollywood6964 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
I probably come off as a Booker defender but I fully recognise his deep flaws as a player. So I'd say I'd lean more pro-Booker than full pro-Booker.

I think it's when you realise that he's not a superstar (like I have and I'm sure you do) that you realise that the weight he's carrying as if he's a superstar is unreasonable. What I don't know is what he could do to be a winning player. When we thought he was drafted to be a just a scorer, he became that. When we thought he'd only ever just be a pure scorer, he became a pretty solid passer. When we thought he'd only be an inefficient empty-scorer, he became pretty efficient.

It's just not entirely clear to me what he needs to do in order to be a winning player. It's easy to point at defense but there are winning players who don't play a lick of defense and at least this season he's trying. And from a defensive standpoint, I've basically given up in hoping he'd become even poor defensively. So offensively, what does he need to do? In wins this season, he's taken 18.75 FGA while he's taken 17.5 FGA so there isn't really a positive correlation between him shooting us into L's. So does becoming a catch and shoot type of player mean we become a winning team?

I don't think anything's as simple as that. But letting Rubio control the plays. Getting to his spots, spreading the floor. Getting plays ran for him and making quick decisions out of those plays. Getting back on defense. Not working so hard to get a whatever shot off n then whining about the no call. Other guys, like baynes, cam, bridges, saric, etc can get theirs too. This just inherently induces more effort from everybody because they play to shoot here n there as well.


There's so much to it. Even playing pick up, nobody wants to play with the gut who demands to make every play, whether it be scoring, passing, complaining, etc.

I totally agree with you that it's not as simple as that. Which is why when I see statement like Booker is the problem, I'm just a bit dumbfounded. I still see Booker as more the solution than a problem and right now, he's probably closer to being a neutral. And honestly, I don't really see many posts that's really crowning him a young superstar or future super star on this board (maybe there is but I probably glossed over it).

Most people, especially Suns fans, know these two things as facts:

1. He's a gift scorer
2. He's a horrible defender.

It's the other questions like, is he a winner? Can he be a winner? Those questions remain unanswered and at 24, it's probably not insane that there isn't a concrete answer yet. I'm not saying he couldn't do more to be a better player as an individual and for the team but I feel like some people think he's the root cause of why we suck when we lose games and that's just not the case. If Booker is the best player on this team, even with all the flaws in his game, isn't that more of a reflection on the team building aspect of this front office?

For Booker to be a winner he needs to accept a few things that will deflate his ego.

1. He needs less of the ball in his hand. He's not a dribbler and he's not a passer. He's a shooter. Get into a good position to shoot and shoot the ball. That's all. Let the others do the playmaking.
2. He needs to accept he's got too many flaws to be the #1. He needs to accept taking less responsibility within the offence and go to JJ and say we need another star who can be the #1. Either an athletic, inside-outside PF or pass-first PG who can also score 20+.
3. He needs to work on his weaknesses. He can defend, he just chooses not to most of the time. If he wants to be 'the man', he can be 'the man' through high-intensity defense. To counteract his low agility, watch copious amounts of tape of his upcoming opponent to learn their trends so he can be ready for him.

I can't see any of this happening though, unfortunately. He's a high ego, petulant and somewhat self-entitled personality on the court, and they're not the type who take a step back for the sake of improving the team.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#387 » by JDJ26 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:13 pm

Revived wrote:This is an awful, awful loss. Hawks are the worst team in the league missing a bunch of players on top.

Again we surrender 45% shooting from 3.

Okobo is such a disappointment. This was a game he should’ve went off in because of how bad his matchups are defensively.

Tyler Johnson is *****ing trash. He should never ever see an NBA court again.

I don’t understand how teams like Utah are making trades for competent backup SGs and James Jones is sitting on his ass like nothing needs be done in Phoenix.

Jordan Clarkson would be a big time upgrade over Tyler Johnson.


Do you really trust James Jones or this organization to make a competent move to improve the team this season?

I don't and my fear is Jones will make a panic trade (due to Sarver) to give up more assets for a player that will marginally improve the team at best.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#388 » by handsome salary » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:28 pm

JDJ26 wrote:Do you really trust James Jones or this organization to make a competent move to improve the team this season?

I don't and my fear is Jones will make a panic trade (due to Sarver) to give up more assets for a player that will marginally improve the team at best.


Not sure yet if Jones can judge talent, have a smart vision for success and outfox other GMs. Right now I'd vote no.

Why do the worst teams in the league suddenly have season high games against the Suns? Because the entire league knows what a crappy culture this organization still has and gains much confidence seeing them on the schedule.What back or frontcourt is shaking about facing this team? It's party time.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#389 » by schnakenpopanz » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:30 pm

Suns had some real bad turning points in their history.
The coin toss.
The 3 by paxson.
The horry hip check.

But the recent one is all on themselves.
Ayton looks ok, he will be a solid palyer. Maybe develop into an all star.
But he has no winner - franchise changing mentality.
Trae has. Doncic surely has.
That's what i learned from this game.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#390 » by Jarlaxle0204 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:33 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:It's the other questions like, is he a winner? Can he be a winner? Those questions remain unanswered and at 24, it's probably not insane that there isn't a concrete answer yet. I'm not saying he couldn't do more to be a better player as an individual and for the team but I feel like some people think he's the root cause of why we suck when we lose games and that's just not the case. If Booker is the best player on this team, even with all the flaws in his game, isn't that more of a reflection on the team building aspect of this front office?

He's actually only 23 years old. He won't be 24 until next season.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#391 » by King4Day » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:43 pm

Slim Charless wrote:
ATTL wrote:
King4Day wrote:How much more of this do we have to endure before it's time to blow this up and start all over again?
God I hope we don't make a dumb trade like getting Love or something. There has to be a team willing to give up a ton (including a promising young player) for Booker right? Not saying this is his fault but you are less likely to trade the entire team, or fix all of the problems while he's here.
Blowing it up would mean we concede that we botched the Ayton draft and we blew it during Bookers rise. It's so much easier to root for failure and hope the guys we draft are good. To not see any real progress again is beyond frustrating


Maybe the hawks are willing this summer. Maybe Hurter, one of their 4's and a pick. Maybe hawks gm really want golden state east and see booker as that guy next to trae.


Couldn't agree more boys. Cant wait to get rid of that bum. If we trade him lets get a young, maybe 22/23 old player, who has a cpl of years under the belt and is used to the NBA. Maybe one who averages 25 or so a game this year (but we wanna make sure it's not an anomaly so make sure this guy has been hitting it for over 23 or so for the last few yrs), also we need to make sure the guy we trade Booker for has a contract already in place so we don't have to worry about him leaving.

What we really need is some dumb team to look at all of that and give that up willingly so we can pawn Booker's scrub a** off on. Now the question is where to find a team that dumb who would trade a player like that....


Since Tatum is a year out from his max extension, perhaps they'd consider it. I don't know how Kemba and Booker would co-exist but that's the deal that I keep coming back to.
I'm not sure who else we can look at who fits that bill.

Note: I realize it's very unlikely Boston considers it since they have a good thing going.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#392 » by King4Day » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:44 pm

schnakenpopanz wrote:Suns had some real bad turning points in their history.
The coin toss.
The 3 by paxson.
The horry hip check.

But the recent one is all on themselves.
Ayton looks ok, he will be a solid palyer. Maybe develop into an all star.
But he has no winner - franchise changing mentality.
Trae has. Doncic surely has.
That's what i learned from this game.


I actually think he'd be better suited as the go-to guy on a rebuilding Suns team. He being the primary focus on offense.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#393 » by hollywood6964 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:08 pm

King4Day wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
ATTL wrote:
Maybe the hawks are willing this summer. Maybe Hurter, one of their 4's and a pick. Maybe hawks gm really want golden state east and see booker as that guy next to trae.


Couldn't agree more boys. Cant wait to get rid of that bum. If we trade him lets get a young, maybe 22/23 old player, who has a cpl of years under the belt and is used to the NBA. Maybe one who averages 25 or so a game this year (but we wanna make sure it's not an anomaly so make sure this guy has been hitting it for over 23 or so for the last few yrs), also we need to make sure the guy we trade Booker for has a contract already in place so we don't have to worry about him leaving.

What we really need is some dumb team to look at all of that and give that up willingly so we can pawn Booker's scrub a** off on. Now the question is where to find a team that dumb who would trade a player like that....


Since Tatum is a year out from his max extension, perhaps they'd consider it. I don't know how Kemba and Booker would co-exist but that's the deal that I keep coming back to.
I'm not sure who else we can look at who fits that bill.

Note: I realize it's very unlikely Boston considers it since they have a good thing going.

Tatum is better than Booker, or they are very close overall. He actually plays defense. He's a net positive player.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#394 » by RunDogGun » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:08 pm

This loss is on Monty in my opinion. You can't wait and then have to react in this league unless you have multiple superstars, who can recover quickly. It was a massive mistake to not start Bridges and put him on Huerter right away. Going into the fourth quarter, we had three starters with a combined 4 baskets made.

Tyler Johnson should not be on the floor anymore. Either buy him out or sit him out. He in no way is boosting his trade value. It is almost like he is playing to guarantee a loss.

Start Rubio, Booker, Bridges, Oubre, and Ayton. If anyone is out, then alter it a bit. Start Carter at point if we are playing a fast point guard if Rubio is out.

I am very disappointed in this loss, but a coach needs to start the game wisely, not have to be forced into making the adjustment he should have made before the game started.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#395 » by Revived » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:06 pm

I don’t understand how Saric blows so much suddenly. I never liked him even in Philly but at least he was a serviceable player then.

Suns need to sell high on guys like Saric and Baynes instead of holding on to them as if their some treasure. Even if it’s multiple 2nd rd picks, that’s still fine.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#396 » by RunDogGun » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:19 pm

Revived wrote:I don’t understand how Saric blows so much suddenly. I never liked him even in Philly but at least he was a serviceable player then.

Suns need to sell high on guys like Saric and Baynes instead of holding on to them as if their some treasure. Even if it’s multiple 2nd rd picks, that’s still fine.

He isn't a starter really, and is a bit slow guarding sfs. ATL started basically three wings a PG and a PF. It was doomed from the start to have Baynes and Saric be our bigs. Neither of them dominated the boards and they couldn't guard the faster younger Hawks.

Saric does better against players who are closer to his abilities, and with a floor general like Rubio making the decisions for him.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#397 » by darealjuice » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:23 pm

You knew Baynes wasn’t going to keep shooting so good all season, but it’s been rough since his injuries. He needs to head to the bench for Ayton and focus more on banging down low again. He’s not a knock down shooter, can’t expect to come out hot from 3 from the go every night.

Ayton is such a confusing player. Solid stat line, but I really don’t like watching him play. Everything just looks so slow with him for such an athletic guy. Always looks like he’s jogging and standing straight up. Slow to rotate, slow to contest, slow to roll. Still avoiding contact. Still doesn’t seem to be able to dribble the ball. He’s never going to get to the free throw line when he’s all alley oops, quick hook shots/turnarounds, and mid-range shots. He needs to start over Baynes for sure, but if the Timberwolves would take Ayton and as many firsts as they want for Towns I’d help pack his bags.

Bad loss. When’s Ricky back?
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#398 » by handsome salary » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:25 pm

Jarlaxle0204 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:It's the other questions like, is he a winner? Can he be a winner? Those questions remain unanswered and at 24, it's probably not insane that there isn't a concrete answer yet. I'm not saying he couldn't do more to be a better player as an individual and for the team but I feel like some people think he's the root cause of why we suck when we lose games and that's just not the case. If Booker is the best player on this team, even with all the flaws in his game, isn't that more of a reflection on the team building aspect of this front office?

He's actually only 23 years old. He won't be 24 until next season.


Right now Booker is going to be known for being the best player to never have made the playoffs. Maybe in NBA history.

TJ Warren will experience the playoffs this year as will probably De'Anthony Melton. Book's great friends Russell and Townes have been there too.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#399 » by GoodBehavior » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:48 pm

Okobo is really to blame for this game. Trae is the absolute worse defending point guard in the world, maybe in history. Okobo's job was to put pressure on Trae's defensively, which is what 99% of the rest of the NBA teams do. ZERO point with a measly 3 assists in 22 minutes. Just awful.
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Re: Game 40: Phoenix Suns (16-23) @ Atlanta Hawks (8-32) 

Post#400 » by hollywood6964 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:58 pm

GoodBehavior wrote:Okobo is really to blame for this game. Trae is the absolute worse defending point guard in the world, maybe in history. Okobo's job was to put pressure on Trae's defensively, which is what 99% of the rest of the NBA teams do. ZERO point with a measly 3 assists in 22 minutes. Just awful.

I agree he wasn't good. But a lot of its on Monty. He had okobo sitting in a corner while Booker flagged down screens all night. It was a trash game plan, one that anyone could see would fail. Except Monty. He's a terrible coach.

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