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James Jones as EOY candidate

Moderators: bwgood77, lilfishi22, Kerrsed, Qwigglez

What are your top two Jones moves?

Trading Trevor Ariza for Kelly Oubre
17
21%
Signing Ricky Rubio by freeing cap space (Warren/Jackson)
6
8%
Trading Jarret Culver for Saric & Cam Johnson
23
29%
Trading Josh Jackson, Melton & picks for Korver & Carter
1
1%
Signing Jae Crowder
10
13%
Trading cash considerations for Torrey Craig
23
29%
Other (leave a comment)
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 80

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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#61 » by bwgood77 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 5:32 pm

Barkley6 wrote:
Spoiler:
King4Day wrote:
Saberestar wrote:Jalen Smith is already probably better than a bunch of rookies that have been playing a lot of minutes for lottery teams.

Which rookie is playing decent minutes for any team that is yet in the competition? Exactly, no one. Great teams usually do not have any rookie in the rotation, and we were a great team since the start of the season.

Jalen Smith was given minutes in the final game of the RS and he did a double double.

He is a hard worker and has skills. He is gonna be good. Not sure why people are doubting him and James Jones.


I'm sure some had heard of him but many, including me, had to scramble and look him up to see what he was about. Some of the podcasts I watched said the same thing too.
I'm sure the pick was for need but in a draft where you just don't have a chance to do real scouting, I'd think Haliburton was the safer bet / sure thing, at the least.
You're probably right that he wasn't picked because of Payne, but it still hurts.

Smith had a good final game but I still feel he's further away than we need him to be. I hope he can take a big jump this offseason. No doubt the team is going to give him things to work on (bulking up and court awareness are key but not sure how you improve court awareness).
If he can take Frank's role next season, as third big, I'd consider it a win. Anything more and it's gravy.

Saric will be hard to move so we'll probably be giving him the backup big spot to try to rebuild his value


I think we're underestimating him a little. When you look at the jump he made from his freshman to sophomore season, it's pretty impressive.

In 5 more MPG he:
Improved his 3pt% by 10%
Improved his 2pt% by 4%
Improved his rebounds by 4/game
doubled his blocks per game (1.2 to 2.4)
Improved his scoring by 4ppg

That's a pretty significant development arc. I would hope he'd continue to grow and improve playing against NBA level players in practice everyday, and he clearly has the work ethic. I think Stix is going to be a fine NBA player, maybe not a star, but a solid rotation piece.


He also has a 150% TS% in the playoffs!
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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#62 » by Slim Charless » Wed Jun 9, 2021 7:32 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:
King4Day wrote:
Spoiler:


Great breakdown! Totally forgot about Jones.

I would put Smith in the negative too. Maybe he improves but no Suns fan wanted him. It was Haliburton once he fell to us. So far he hasn't shown much that says he'll be a player in this league
I think Jones was confident that Payne would do well as the backup point guard. I wanted Smith before the draft, and I still like him. He has a good motor and fits our culture. He also fills a need with rebounding and blocks. He has range as well. I would like to see him with a full summer.


WAY too early to judge Smith. I SMH at people saying he hasn't shown he can be an NBA player. While technically true, he hasn't played lol...and it's not necessarily because he isn't good but because we are deep and have guys with a lot of experience and are a 2 seed.

Sure I mention it would be nice to have Haliburton especially given CP3's age and injury history, but for all we know, Smith will end up the long term better player and has a rare skill set...and people have agreed we need a long term backup big.


This. People are sleeping on Smith. Give the man a off-season with access to the weight room and the hopeful return of Summer League and he will be a good player. All we need is a shot blocker (weakside) who can hit the 3 at a decent clip and play solid D from the PF spot. I think he can become that guy as soon as next year, or at least play get some good mins off the bench. Haliburton is nice and all but we have Payne at the backup playing amazing. Plus, if we want a PGOTF we can take one this year with our pick.
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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#63 » by RunDogGun » Wed Jun 9, 2021 8:59 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
King4Day wrote:
Spoiler:
Saberestar wrote:Jalen Smith is already probably better than a bunch of rookies that have been playing a lot of minutes for lottery teams.

Which rookie is playing decent minutes for any team that is yet in the competition? Exactly, no one. Great teams usually do not have any rookie in the rotation, and we were a great team since the start of the season.

Jalen Smith was given minutes in the final game of the RS and he did a double double.

He is a hard worker and has skills. He is gonna be good. Not sure why people are doubting him and James Jones.


I'm sure some had heard of him but many, including me, had to scramble and look him up to see what he was about. Some of the podcasts I watched said the same thing too.
I'm sure the pick was for need but in a draft where you just don't have a chance to do real scouting, I'd think Haliburton was the safer bet / sure thing, at the least.
You're probably right that he wasn't picked because of Payne, but it still hurts.

Smith had a good final game but I still feel he's further away than we need him to be. I hope he can take a big jump this offseason. No doubt the team is going to give him things to work on (bulking up and court awareness are key but not sure how you improve court awareness).
If he can take Frank's role next season, as third big, I'd consider it a win. Anything more and it's gravy.

Saric will be hard to move so we'll probably be giving him the backup big spot to try to rebuild his value


We talked about him a lot in our draft thread and I'mNotMcDISwear flat out called the pick thinking he was exactly the Jones prototype.
I thought Ghost and I were the only people saying we should draft Smith saying he was the kind of player Jones would draft. :dontknow:
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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#64 » by RunDogGun » Wed Jun 9, 2021 9:02 pm

Slim Charless wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:I think Jones was confident that Payne would do well as the backup point guard. I wanted Smith before the draft, and I still like him. He has a good motor and fits our culture. He also fills a need with rebounding and blocks. He has range as well. I would like to see him with a full summer.


WAY too early to judge Smith. I SMH at people saying he hasn't shown he can be an NBA player. While technically true, he hasn't played lol...and it's not necessarily because he isn't good but because we are deep and have guys with a lot of experience and are a 2 seed.

Sure I mention it would be nice to have Haliburton especially given CP3's age and injury history, but for all we know, Smith will end up the long term better player and has a rare skill set...and people have agreed we need a long term backup big.


This. People are sleeping on Smith. Give the man a off-season with access to the weight room and the hopeful return of Summer League and he will be a good player. All we need is a shot blocker (weakside) who can hit the 3 at a decent clip and play solid D from the PF spot. I think he can become that guy as soon as next year, or at least play get some good mins off the bench. Haliburton is nice and all but we have Payne at the backup playing amazing. Plus, if we want a PGOTF we can take one this year with our pick.


It seems like the Suns never draft a PGOTF, we usually grab one that has already started to develop, or developed. While we did draft Nash, we weren't the team that developed him. We drafted Goran, but again, let him develop in Houston, then got him back.
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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#65 » by Slim Charless » Wed Jun 9, 2021 10:17 pm

RunDogGun wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
WAY too early to judge Smith. I SMH at people saying he hasn't shown he can be an NBA player. While technically true, he hasn't played lol...and it's not necessarily because he isn't good but because we are deep and have guys with a lot of experience and are a 2 seed.

Sure I mention it would be nice to have Haliburton especially given CP3's age and injury history, but for all we know, Smith will end up the long term better player and has a rare skill set...and people have agreed we need a long term backup big.


This. People are sleeping on Smith. Give the man a off-season with access to the weight room and the hopeful return of Summer League and he will be a good player. All we need is a shot blocker (weakside) who can hit the 3 at a decent clip and play solid D from the PF spot. I think he can become that guy as soon as next year, or at least play get some good mins off the bench. Haliburton is nice and all but we have Payne at the backup playing amazing. Plus, if we want a PGOTF we can take one this year with our pick.


It seems like the Suns never draft a PGOTF, we usually grab one that has already started to develop, or developed. While we did draft Nash, we weren't the team that developed him. We drafted Goran, but again, let him develop in Houston, then got him back.


There's a few I wouldn't mind. Nix from the g league is only 19 come draft day. He was a highly thought of kid outta high school. We can grab him and let him sit behind Chris for a season or 2 then give him some mins.
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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#66 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 10:59 pm

Saberestar wrote:
King4Day wrote:
Saberestar wrote:Jalen Smith is already probably better than a bunch of rookies that have been playing a lot of minutes for lottery teams.

Which rookie is playing decent minutes for any team that is yet in the competition? Exactly, no one. Great teams usually do not have any rookie in the rotation, and we were a great team since the start of the season.

Jalen Smith was given minutes in the final game of the RS and he did a double double.

He is a hard worker and has skills. He is gonna be good. Not sure why people are doubting him and James Jones.


I'm sure some had heard of him but many, including me, had to scramble and look him up to see what he was about. Some of the podcasts I watched said the same thing too.
I'm sure the pick was for need but in a draft where you just don't have a chance to do real scouting, I'd think Haliburton was the safer bet / sure thing, at the least.
You're probably right that he wasn't picked because of Payne, but it still hurts.

Smith had a good final game but I still feel he's further away than we need him to be. I hope he can take a big jump this offseason. No doubt the team is going to give him things to work on (bulking up and court awareness are key but not sure how you improve court awareness).
If he can take Frank's role next season, as third big, I'd consider it a win. Anything more and it's gravy.

Saric will be hard to move so we'll probably be giving him the backup big spot to try to rebuild his value

A lot of fans say that we need to add another frontcourt player who needs to be a good rebounder, great shot blocker and stretch the floor as a PF/C.... Jalen Smith could be that player for us since next season.

Haliburton wanted to play for the Kings, no way James Jones would have selected a guy that did not want to play for the Suns and I agree with him.

And I am not THAT impressed by him. Yeah, good rookie season, but he was on a losing team playing 30 minutes per game.

He averaged 13 points and 5 assists per game...not sure how good he will be in the next couple of years but for now he is not a game changer or anything like that by any means.

Jalen Smith can be a modern big who can backup or play next to Ayton as soon as next season.

Like every other fanbase, we have fans who overrate our own draft picks while underrating others. Finding reasons to diminish Haliburton as if 13/5 isn't good and not to mention he's not far from a 50/40/90 player, with a 3.3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio and a solid (regardless of team) rookie campaign leading to a top 3 ROY finish. Smith could barely hit the court even in garbage minutes and you're talking about Haliburton not being a game changer as if a late lotto rookie is expected to be. Oh and all the while Smith could barely manage to earn minutes even when our upfront court rotation was decent at best and unplayable at worst. Are we really saying Smith didn't have *any* opportunities to prove he was ready in practice and take a few minutes from Frank and Saric when they looked like hot trash in the regular season?

Let's not forget my friend, Booker was putting up stats as well on a losing team, with the greenest of green light and playing 30mpg, yet we thought he was the future. It's fine if you want to hold judgement on Smith until whenever but you should realise that you're talking about Jalen Smith could be this and that while discounting who Haliburton already is now.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#67 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 11:13 pm

Slim Charless wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:I think Jones was confident that Payne would do well as the backup point guard. I wanted Smith before the draft, and I still like him. He has a good motor and fits our culture. He also fills a need with rebounding and blocks. He has range as well. I would like to see him with a full summer.


WAY too early to judge Smith. I SMH at people saying he hasn't shown he can be an NBA player. While technically true, he hasn't played lol...and it's not necessarily because he isn't good but because we are deep and have guys with a lot of experience and are a 2 seed.

Sure I mention it would be nice to have Haliburton especially given CP3's age and injury history, but for all we know, Smith will end up the long term better player and has a rare skill set...and people have agreed we need a long term backup big.


This. People are sleeping on Smith. Give the man a off-season with access to the weight room and the hopeful return of Summer League and he will be a good player. All we need is a shot blocker (weakside) who can hit the 3 at a decent clip and play solid D from the PF spot. I think he can become that guy as soon as next year, or at least play get some good mins off the bench. Haliburton is nice and all but we have Payne at the backup playing amazing. Plus, if we want a PGOTF we can take one this year with our pick.

Are we actually deep with a lot of experience in the front court? I mean, it's not like a 3rd string journeymen like Frank (who was let go by the Kings) and Saric who only had a dozen or so games the entire season where he looked like he was more than a 3rd stringer himself. It's not like we have Gasol, Harrel and Kieff in front of Smith, it's only Saric and Frank. It's OK to admit that he hasn't shown to be an NBA player and the reason he hasn't played is because he isn't ready to be an NBA player yet. Doesn't mean he can't be in the future but I just don't understand the incessant need to upsell what Smith could be while ignoring the simple fact that he just isn't what we wanted him to be this season. :dontknow:

On the point of a PGOTF, we could've had that player in Haliburton and we could have had CP3 mentor him. Maybe he's not *the* guy but are you really thinking we'll just casually take one this year with our what...29th pick of the draft?
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#68 » by Slim Charless » Wed Jun 9, 2021 11:57 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
WAY too early to judge Smith. I SMH at people saying he hasn't shown he can be an NBA player. While technically true, he hasn't played lol...and it's not necessarily because he isn't good but because we are deep and have guys with a lot of experience and are a 2 seed.

Sure I mention it would be nice to have Haliburton especially given CP3's age and injury history, but for all we know, Smith will end up the long term better player and has a rare skill set...and people have agreed we need a long term backup big.


This. People are sleeping on Smith. Give the man a off-season with access to the weight room and the hopeful return of Summer League and he will be a good player. All we need is a shot blocker (weakside) who can hit the 3 at a decent clip and play solid D from the PF spot. I think he can become that guy as soon as next year, or at least play get some good mins off the bench. Haliburton is nice and all but we have Payne at the backup playing amazing. Plus, if we want a PGOTF we can take one this year with our pick.

Are we actually deep with a lot of experience in the front court? I mean, it's not like a 3rd string journeymen like Frank (who was let go by the Kings) and Saric who only had a dozen or so games the entire season where he looked like he was more than a 3rd stringer himself. It's not like we have Gasol, Harrel and Kieff in front of Smith, it's only Saric and Frank. It's OK to admit that he hasn't shown to be an NBA player and the reason he hasn't played is because he isn't ready to be an NBA player yet. Doesn't mean he can't be in the future but I just don't understand the incessant need to upsell what Smith could be while ignoring the simple fact that he just isn't what we wanted him to be this season. :dontknow:

On the point of a PGOTF, we could've had that player in Haliburton and we could have had CP3 mentor him. Maybe he's not *the* guy but are you really thinking we'll just casually take one this year with our what...29th pick of the draft?


Booker put up mins on a losing team. They knew Smith was raw and probably figured that they could give him time as the season went along, but we were winning so much that there wasn't time to get him involved. Now, if we still had our own Dleague team maybe its different but we do not. I think this offseason we'll see him in summer league, so we'll all get a chance to see him more.
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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#69 » by WeekapaugGroove » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:14 am

Slim Charless wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
This. People are sleeping on Smith. Give the man a off-season with access to the weight room and the hopeful return of Summer League and he will be a good player. All we need is a shot blocker (weakside) who can hit the 3 at a decent clip and play solid D from the PF spot. I think he can become that guy as soon as next year, or at least play get some good mins off the bench. Haliburton is nice and all but we have Payne at the backup playing amazing. Plus, if we want a PGOTF we can take one this year with our pick.

Are we actually deep with a lot of experience in the front court? I mean, it's not like a 3rd string journeymen like Frank (who was let go by the Kings) and Saric who only had a dozen or so games the entire season where he looked like he was more than a 3rd stringer himself. It's not like we have Gasol, Harrel and Kieff in front of Smith, it's only Saric and Frank. It's OK to admit that he hasn't shown to be an NBA player and the reason he hasn't played is because he isn't ready to be an NBA player yet. Doesn't mean he can't be in the future but I just don't understand the incessant need to upsell what Smith could be while ignoring the simple fact that he just isn't what we wanted him to be this season. :dontknow:

On the point of a PGOTF, we could've had that player in Haliburton and we could have had CP3 mentor him. Maybe he's not *the* guy but are you really thinking we'll just casually take one this year with our what...29th pick of the draft?


Booker put up mins on a losing team. They knew Smith was raw and probably figured that they could give him time as the season went along, but we were winning so much that there wasn't time to get him involved. Now, if we still had our own Dleague team maybe its different but we do not. I think this offseason we'll see him in summer league, so we'll all get a chance to see him more.
Smith played a little in the gleague, you don't have to have a team to assign guys to the gleague you just don't control the coaching.

I have really no opinion of Smith but since he both got hurt and got covid I'm willing to give him a redshirt year. If he can't get on the court next year then yeah I'll be concerned.

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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#70 » by handsome salary » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:56 pm

It would be sweet if the Suns could win it all this year. Show the league and fans you can still grow a winner and not just hire the top mercenaries. It would be like a Disney movie.
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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#71 » by Barkley6 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:21 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
Saberestar wrote:
King4Day wrote:
I'm sure some had heard of him but many, including me, had to scramble and look him up to see what he was about. Some of the podcasts I watched said the same thing too.
I'm sure the pick was for need but in a draft where you just don't have a chance to do real scouting, I'd think Haliburton was the safer bet / sure thing, at the least.
You're probably right that he wasn't picked because of Payne, but it still hurts.

Smith had a good final game but I still feel he's further away than we need him to be. I hope he can take a big jump this offseason. No doubt the team is going to give him things to work on (bulking up and court awareness are key but not sure how you improve court awareness).
If he can take Frank's role next season, as third big, I'd consider it a win. Anything more and it's gravy.

Saric will be hard to move so we'll probably be giving him the backup big spot to try to rebuild his value

A lot of fans say that we need to add another frontcourt player who needs to be a good rebounder, great shot blocker and stretch the floor as a PF/C.... Jalen Smith could be that player for us since next season.

Haliburton wanted to play for the Kings, no way James Jones would have selected a guy that did not want to play for the Suns and I agree with him.

And I am not THAT impressed by him. Yeah, good rookie season, but he was on a losing team playing 30 minutes per game.

He averaged 13 points and 5 assists per game...not sure how good he will be in the next couple of years but for now he is not a game changer or anything like that by any means.

Jalen Smith can be a modern big who can backup or play next to Ayton as soon as next season.

Like every other fanbase, we have fans who overrate our own draft picks while underrating others. Finding reasons to diminish Haliburton as if 13/5 isn't good and not to mention he's not far from a 50/40/90 player, with a 3.3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio and a solid (regardless of team) rookie campaign leading to a top 3 ROY finish. Smith could barely hit the court even in garbage minutes and you're talking about Haliburton not being a game changer as if a late lotto rookie is expected to be. Oh and all the while Smith could barely manage to earn minutes even when our upfront court rotation was decent at best and unplayable at worst. Are we really saying Smith didn't have *any* opportunities to prove he was ready in practice and take a few minutes from Frank and Saric when they looked like hot trash in the regular season?

Let's not forget my friend, Booker was putting up stats as well on a losing team, with the greenest of green light and playing 30mpg, yet we thought he was the future. It's fine if you want to hold judgement on Smith until whenever but you should realise that you're talking about Jalen Smith could be this and that while discounting who Haliburton already is now.


Halliburton is clearly a good NBA player. But going in to draft night with CP3, Cam Payne, and Book all expected to log big minutes at the guard positions, It doesn't seem like he'd have gotten much more than 10-12 minutes a game here, which then makes you wonder what his development trajectory would have looked like.

Not every player thrives in every situation, and it would be foolish to think Halliburton would be the exact same player he is as a 30 minute a night player on a Sacramento team with no expectations, vs a 12 minute a night player on a team competing to win a championship.
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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#72 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:23 pm

Barkley6 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
Saberestar wrote:A lot of fans say that we need to add another frontcourt player who needs to be a good rebounder, great shot blocker and stretch the floor as a PF/C.... Jalen Smith could be that player for us since next season.

Haliburton wanted to play for the Kings, no way James Jones would have selected a guy that did not want to play for the Suns and I agree with him.

And I am not THAT impressed by him. Yeah, good rookie season, but he was on a losing team playing 30 minutes per game.

He averaged 13 points and 5 assists per game...not sure how good he will be in the next couple of years but for now he is not a game changer or anything like that by any means.

Jalen Smith can be a modern big who can backup or play next to Ayton as soon as next season.

Like every other fanbase, we have fans who overrate our own draft picks while underrating others. Finding reasons to diminish Haliburton as if 13/5 isn't good and not to mention he's not far from a 50/40/90 player, with a 3.3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio and a solid (regardless of team) rookie campaign leading to a top 3 ROY finish. Smith could barely hit the court even in garbage minutes and you're talking about Haliburton not being a game changer as if a late lotto rookie is expected to be. Oh and all the while Smith could barely manage to earn minutes even when our upfront court rotation was decent at best and unplayable at worst. Are we really saying Smith didn't have *any* opportunities to prove he was ready in practice and take a few minutes from Frank and Saric when they looked like hot trash in the regular season?

Let's not forget my friend, Booker was putting up stats as well on a losing team, with the greenest of green light and playing 30mpg, yet we thought he was the future. It's fine if you want to hold judgement on Smith until whenever but you should realise that you're talking about Jalen Smith could be this and that while discounting who Haliburton already is now.


Halliburton is clearly a good NBA player. But going in to draft night with CP3, Cam Payne, and Book all expected to log big minutes at the guard positions, It doesn't seem like he'd have gotten much more than 10-12 minutes a game here, which then makes you wonder what his development trajectory would have looked like.

Not every player thrives in every situation, and it would be foolish to think Halliburton would be the exact same player he is as a 30 minute a night player on a Sacramento team with no expectations, vs a 12 minute a night player on a team competing to win a championship.

I'm just going based on what we know and what we know is that Haliburton *is* an NBA player whereas Smith has not been. And yes, perhaps there may not be significant minutes for him with our current rotation (similar to Carter now being out of the rotation) but a draft pick that high up should really favor talent over short/medium term need. I've never liked using the draft for need and 9 times out of 10, it's the wrong path to take unless we're talking like way outside of lottery. And sure Jones probably liked what Smith brought in terms of character, temperament, maturity and prototypical big man skill set, I really think we should've started looking towards our PGOTF.

So yes, you might be right that he may not get much minutes but Smith can't even earn the minutes and that front court depth is an issue that's been discussed at length. So while I think it's foolish for anyone to come to a final judgement on Smith, I'm more critical about the pick itself than the player we got if that makes sense. I didn't like the pick rationale we seemed to have ran with (need front court depth) over the higher end talent.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#73 » by Barkley6 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:24 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
Barkley6 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Like every other fanbase, we have fans who overrate our own draft picks while underrating others. Finding reasons to diminish Haliburton as if 13/5 isn't good and not to mention he's not far from a 50/40/90 player, with a 3.3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio and a solid (regardless of team) rookie campaign leading to a top 3 ROY finish. Smith could barely hit the court even in garbage minutes and you're talking about Haliburton not being a game changer as if a late lotto rookie is expected to be. Oh and all the while Smith could barely manage to earn minutes even when our upfront court rotation was decent at best and unplayable at worst. Are we really saying Smith didn't have *any* opportunities to prove he was ready in practice and take a few minutes from Frank and Saric when they looked like hot trash in the regular season?

Let's not forget my friend, Booker was putting up stats as well on a losing team, with the greenest of green light and playing 30mpg, yet we thought he was the future. It's fine if you want to hold judgement on Smith until whenever but you should realise that you're talking about Jalen Smith could be this and that while discounting who Haliburton already is now.


Halliburton is clearly a good NBA player. But going in to draft night with CP3, Cam Payne, and Book all expected to log big minutes at the guard positions, It doesn't seem like he'd have gotten much more than 10-12 minutes a game here, which then makes you wonder what his development trajectory would have looked like.

Not every player thrives in every situation, and it would be foolish to think Halliburton would be the exact same player he is as a 30 minute a night player on a Sacramento team with no expectations, vs a 12 minute a night player on a team competing to win a championship.

I'm just going based on what we know and what we know is that Haliburton *is* an NBA player whereas Smith has not been. And yes, perhaps there may not be significant minutes for him with our current rotation (similar to Carter now being out of the rotation) but a draft pick that high up should really favor talent over short/medium term need. I've never liked using the draft for need and 9 times out of 10, it's the wrong path to take unless we're talking like way outside of lottery. And sure Jones probably liked what Smith brought in terms of character, temperament, maturity and prototypical big man skill set, I really think we should've started looking towards our PGOTF.

So yes, you might be right that he may not get much minutes but Smith can't even earn the minutes and that front court depth is an issue that's been discussed at length. So while I think it's foolish for anyone to come to a final judgement on Smith, I'm more critical about the pick itself than the player we got if that makes sense. I didn't like the pick rationale we seemed to have ran with (need front court depth) over the higher end talent.


Understand your thinking here. But I think when we look at our roster situation at the time of the draft, we hadn't re-signed Saric yet. We were declining the option on Kaminsky. We knew Baynes was leaving. And there was no guarantee we'd sign Crowder.

We literally only had Ayton as a frontcourt player under contract at the time. Whereas in the backcourt, we had Payne, Paul and Book locked in for the guard spots, and Bridges, Johnson and Nader on the wings.

I'm usually all about drafting the best talent and letting it work itself out, particularly as basketball becomes more and more positionless, but we desperately needed front court depth. It's maybe not what I would have done, but I understand the thinking.
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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#74 » by lilfishi22 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:01 am

Barkley6 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
Barkley6 wrote:
Halliburton is clearly a good NBA player. But going in to draft night with CP3, Cam Payne, and Book all expected to log big minutes at the guard positions, It doesn't seem like he'd have gotten much more than 10-12 minutes a game here, which then makes you wonder what his development trajectory would have looked like.

Not every player thrives in every situation, and it would be foolish to think Halliburton would be the exact same player he is as a 30 minute a night player on a Sacramento team with no expectations, vs a 12 minute a night player on a team competing to win a championship.

I'm just going based on what we know and what we know is that Haliburton *is* an NBA player whereas Smith has not been. And yes, perhaps there may not be significant minutes for him with our current rotation (similar to Carter now being out of the rotation) but a draft pick that high up should really favor talent over short/medium term need. I've never liked using the draft for need and 9 times out of 10, it's the wrong path to take unless we're talking like way outside of lottery. And sure Jones probably liked what Smith brought in terms of character, temperament, maturity and prototypical big man skill set, I really think we should've started looking towards our PGOTF.

So yes, you might be right that he may not get much minutes but Smith can't even earn the minutes and that front court depth is an issue that's been discussed at length. So while I think it's foolish for anyone to come to a final judgement on Smith, I'm more critical about the pick itself than the player we got if that makes sense. I didn't like the pick rationale we seemed to have ran with (need front court depth) over the higher end talent.


Understand your thinking here. But I think when we look at our roster situation at the time of the draft, we hadn't re-signed Saric yet. We were declining the option on Kaminsky. We knew Baynes was leaving. And there was no guarantee we'd sign Crowder.

We literally only had Ayton as a frontcourt player under contract at the time. Whereas in the backcourt, we had Payne, Paul and Book locked in for the guard spots, and Bridges, Johnson and Nader on the wings.

I'm usually all about drafting the best talent and letting it work itself out, particularly as basketball becomes more and more positionless, but we desperately needed front court depth. It's maybe not what I would have done, but I understand the thinking.

That's the decision I'm not on board with. In a season where we have higher aspiration than probably in the last decade, it seems incredibly naive thinking it would be wise to draft for need, in a position where we're not deep and place that expectation on a young kid.

I really think having CP3 on the roster is a massive benefit in terms of mentorship that we could've taken advantage of with Haliburton who seems like a pretty smart, high BBIQ kid. I'm just not sure there's a ton our bigs could help Smith with.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#75 » by Saberestar » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:11 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
Saberestar wrote:
King4Day wrote:
I'm sure some had heard of him but many, including me, had to scramble and look him up to see what he was about. Some of the podcasts I watched said the same thing too.
I'm sure the pick was for need but in a draft where you just don't have a chance to do real scouting, I'd think Haliburton was the safer bet / sure thing, at the least.
You're probably right that he wasn't picked because of Payne, but it still hurts.

Smith had a good final game but I still feel he's further away than we need him to be. I hope he can take a big jump this offseason. No doubt the team is going to give him things to work on (bulking up and court awareness are key but not sure how you improve court awareness).
If he can take Frank's role next season, as third big, I'd consider it a win. Anything more and it's gravy.

Saric will be hard to move so we'll probably be giving him the backup big spot to try to rebuild his value

A lot of fans say that we need to add another frontcourt player who needs to be a good rebounder, great shot blocker and stretch the floor as a PF/C.... Jalen Smith could be that player for us since next season.

Haliburton wanted to play for the Kings, no way James Jones would have selected a guy that did not want to play for the Suns and I agree with him.

And I am not THAT impressed by him. Yeah, good rookie season, but he was on a losing team playing 30 minutes per game.

He averaged 13 points and 5 assists per game...not sure how good he will be in the next couple of years but for now he is not a game changer or anything like that by any means.

Jalen Smith can be a modern big who can backup or play next to Ayton as soon as next season.

Like every other fanbase, we have fans who overrate our own draft picks while underrating others. Finding reasons to diminish Haliburton as if 13/5 isn't good and not to mention he's not far from a 50/40/90 player, with a 3.3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio and a solid (regardless of team) rookie campaign leading to a top 3 ROY finish. Smith could barely hit the court even in garbage minutes and you're talking about Haliburton not being a game changer as if a late lotto rookie is expected to be. Oh and all the while Smith could barely manage to earn minutes even when our upfront court rotation was decent at best and unplayable at worst. Are we really saying Smith didn't have *any* opportunities to prove he was ready in practice and take a few minutes from Frank and Saric when they looked like hot trash in the regular season?

Let's not forget my friend, Booker was putting up stats as well on a losing team, with the greenest of green light and playing 30mpg, yet we thought he was the future. It's fine if you want to hold judgement on Smith until whenever but you should realise that you're talking about Jalen Smith could be this and that while discounting who Haliburton already is now.

How in the world you would ignore that a player do not want to play for your team? Haliburton did not want to play for the Suns, several times was said that he wanted to go to the Kings. I would have selected him IF he were an amazing talent as Zion, and probably trade him later, but Haliburton did not deserve that treatment.

Haliburton has played a good rookie season, but when you watch him you do not see All Star potential. I see a solid PG/SG who will be good for so many years in the league, I like him, but his percentages will be worse in the future with more attention on him. His release is not good enough to shot with efficiency with a hand in his face.

Jalen Smith has everything to be a good rotation player for the Suns in the next future. He has not had the opportunity yet, Saric and Kaminsky are better players than some around here think IMO.

James Jones deserves credibility because all his other great moves. I am gonna give Jalen Smith at least a full couple of years.
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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#76 » by lilfishi22 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:44 am

Saberestar wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
Saberestar wrote:A lot of fans say that we need to add another frontcourt player who needs to be a good rebounder, great shot blocker and stretch the floor as a PF/C.... Jalen Smith could be that player for us since next season.

Haliburton wanted to play for the Kings, no way James Jones would have selected a guy that did not want to play for the Suns and I agree with him.

And I am not THAT impressed by him. Yeah, good rookie season, but he was on a losing team playing 30 minutes per game.

He averaged 13 points and 5 assists per game...not sure how good he will be in the next couple of years but for now he is not a game changer or anything like that by any means.

Jalen Smith can be a modern big who can backup or play next to Ayton as soon as next season.

Like every other fanbase, we have fans who overrate our own draft picks while underrating others. Finding reasons to diminish Haliburton as if 13/5 isn't good and not to mention he's not far from a 50/40/90 player, with a 3.3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio and a solid (regardless of team) rookie campaign leading to a top 3 ROY finish. Smith could barely hit the court even in garbage minutes and you're talking about Haliburton not being a game changer as if a late lotto rookie is expected to be. Oh and all the while Smith could barely manage to earn minutes even when our upfront court rotation was decent at best and unplayable at worst. Are we really saying Smith didn't have *any* opportunities to prove he was ready in practice and take a few minutes from Frank and Saric when they looked like hot trash in the regular season?

Let's not forget my friend, Booker was putting up stats as well on a losing team, with the greenest of green light and playing 30mpg, yet we thought he was the future. It's fine if you want to hold judgement on Smith until whenever but you should realise that you're talking about Jalen Smith could be this and that while discounting who Haliburton already is now.

How in the world you would ignore that a player do not want to play for your team? Haliburton did not want to play for the Suns, several times was said that he wanted to go to the Kings. I would have selected him IF he were an amazing talent as Zion, and probably trade him later, but Haliburton did not deserve that treatment.

Haliburton has played a good rookie season, but when you watch him you do not see All Star potential. I see a solid PG/SG who will be good for so many years in the league, I like him, but his percentages will be worse in the future with more attention on him. His release is not good enough to shot with efficiency with a hand in his face.

Jalen Smith has everything to be a good rotation player for the Suns in the next future. He has not had the opportunity yet, Saric and Kaminsky are better players than some around here think IMO.

James Jones deserves credibility because all his other great moves. I am gonna give Jalen Smith at least a full couple of years.

When did he say he didn't want to play for the Phoenix Suns? Or was his preference to play for the Kings?

If we're talking about all-star potential, at least Haliburton is an NBA player now. Smith isn't even a rotation player. You give a guy who has played a grand total of 180 NBA minutes such an insanely long leash yet you've already decided Haliburton has peaked (percentages will get worse?).

Jones definitely deserves credibility and I've liked his moves but this is one imo he should've swung for the fences for. We'll see how Smith pans out but so far, he hasn't proven to be ready for NBA minutes while the other guy is not just playing NBA minutes (maybe undeservedly) and has shown he belongs.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#77 » by Saberestar » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:53 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
Saberestar wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Like every other fanbase, we have fans who overrate our own draft picks while underrating others. Finding reasons to diminish Haliburton as if 13/5 isn't good and not to mention he's not far from a 50/40/90 player, with a 3.3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio and a solid (regardless of team) rookie campaign leading to a top 3 ROY finish. Smith could barely hit the court even in garbage minutes and you're talking about Haliburton not being a game changer as if a late lotto rookie is expected to be. Oh and all the while Smith could barely manage to earn minutes even when our upfront court rotation was decent at best and unplayable at worst. Are we really saying Smith didn't have *any* opportunities to prove he was ready in practice and take a few minutes from Frank and Saric when they looked like hot trash in the regular season?

Let's not forget my friend, Booker was putting up stats as well on a losing team, with the greenest of green light and playing 30mpg, yet we thought he was the future. It's fine if you want to hold judgement on Smith until whenever but you should realise that you're talking about Jalen Smith could be this and that while discounting who Haliburton already is now.

How in the world you would ignore that a player do not want to play for your team? Haliburton did not want to play for the Suns, several times was said that he wanted to go to the Kings. I would have selected him IF he were an amazing talent as Zion, and probably trade him later, but Haliburton did not deserve that treatment.

Haliburton has played a good rookie season, but when you watch him you do not see All Star potential. I see a solid PG/SG who will be good for so many years in the league, I like him, but his percentages will be worse in the future with more attention on him. His release is not good enough to shot with efficiency with a hand in his face.

Jalen Smith has everything to be a good rotation player for the Suns in the next future. He has not had the opportunity yet, Saric and Kaminsky are better players than some around here think IMO.

James Jones deserves credibility because all his other great moves. I am gonna give Jalen Smith at least a full couple of years.

When did he say he didn't want to play for the Phoenix Suns? Or was his preference to play for the Kings?

If we're talking about all-star potential, at least Haliburton is an NBA player now. Smith isn't even a rotation player. You give a guy who has played a grand total of 180 NBA minutes such an insanely long leash yet you've already decided Haliburton has peaked (percentages will get worse?).

Jones definitely deserves credibility and I've liked his moves but this is one imo he should've swung for the fences for. We'll see how Smith pans out but so far, he hasn't proven to be ready for NBA minutes while the other guy is not just playing NBA minutes (maybe undeservedly) and has shown he belongs.

IIRC that info was commented by different sources.

In this one, Jonathan Givony on the Zach Lowe podcast:

"Givony: ...Haliburton, they (the Mavericks) were 100% trying to get him, starting at 8, they offered a, like you said, a boatload of stuff and future picks even to try and go get him.

People are like, how did Haliburton fall so far?!… a lot of this was by design. The consistent theme that I kept hearing in the pre-draft process from agents was, “I hate the teams that are drafting in the top 10. I don’t want my guys with any of those franchises.” And so, they were very selective with who got medicals and they were openly telling teams, “don’t take my guy, please.” So I think, that is a big reason why Haliburton ended up going 12.

He… he could have gone 6, I think, had he wanted to, but he was open to, you know, “let me sacrifice $7, 8 million because I think it’s going to end up working out in the long term with Sacramento”... and Zach, how many times can you say a player wants to go to Sacramento?! It’s incredible!!”

https://kingsherald.com/draft-news/2020-nba-draft-tyrese-haliburton-sacramento-kings-lowe-post/
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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#78 » by suns12345 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:47 pm

Saberestar wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
Saberestar wrote:How in the world you would ignore that a player do not want to play for your team? Haliburton did not want to play for the Suns, several times was said that he wanted to go to the Kings. I would have selected him IF he were an amazing talent as Zion, and probably trade him later, but Haliburton did not deserve that treatment.

Haliburton has played a good rookie season, but when you watch him you do not see All Star potential. I see a solid PG/SG who will be good for so many years in the league, I like him, but his percentages will be worse in the future with more attention on him. His release is not good enough to shot with efficiency with a hand in his face.

Jalen Smith has everything to be a good rotation player for the Suns in the next future. He has not had the opportunity yet, Saric and Kaminsky are better players than some around here think IMO.

James Jones deserves credibility because all his other great moves. I am gonna give Jalen Smith at least a full couple of years.

When did he say he didn't want to play for the Phoenix Suns? Or was his preference to play for the Kings?

If we're talking about all-star potential, at least Haliburton is an NBA player now. Smith isn't even a rotation player. You give a guy who has played a grand total of 180 NBA minutes such an insanely long leash yet you've already decided Haliburton has peaked (percentages will get worse?).

Jones definitely deserves credibility and I've liked his moves but this is one imo he should've swung for the fences for. We'll see how Smith pans out but so far, he hasn't proven to be ready for NBA minutes while the other guy is not just playing NBA minutes (maybe undeservedly) and has shown he belongs.

IIRC that info was commented by different sources.

In this one, Jonathan Givony on the Zach Lowe podcast:

"Givony: ...Haliburton, they (the Mavericks) were 100% trying to get him, starting at 8, they offered a, like you said, a boatload of stuff and future picks even to try and go get him.

People are like, how did Haliburton fall so far?!… a lot of this was by design. The consistent theme that I kept hearing in the pre-draft process from agents was, “I hate the teams that are drafting in the top 10. I don’t want my guys with any of those franchises.” And so, they were very selective with who got medicals and they were openly telling teams, “don’t take my guy, please.” So I think, that is a big reason why Haliburton ended up going 12.

He… he could have gone 6, I think, had he wanted to, but he was open to, you know, “let me sacrifice $7, 8 million because I think it’s going to end up working out in the long term with Sacramento”... and Zach, how many times can you say a player wants to go to Sacramento?! It’s incredible!!”

https://kingsherald.com/draft-news/2020-nba-draft-tyrese-haliburton-sacramento-kings-lowe-post/


Thank you! people keep forgetting this!!
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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#79 » by bwgood77 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:51 pm

I think we all know Haliburton made more sense, would be nice to have for PG depth, especially post CP3, and that he was ready and was good. Seemed like a no brainer. He got a lot of minutes and played well on a bad team this year. He didn't want to come to the Suns, but that wouldn't have deterred me.

However, we know nothing about how good Jalen Smith will be. He was dealing with COVID for a long time and injuries and played on one of the best and deepest teams in the NBA. He certainly didn't get enough minutes to show anything and in garbage time he rarely touches the ball because all those guys who handle want to score.

He just turned 21, but also had a 62.6% TS%, shot over 60% from 2 and 37% from 3, averaged over 10 reb per game and 2.4 blocks per game, had an incredible defensive rating, is a high character guy, and has a rare skill set that is valuable in today's NBA...can finish, hit 3s, block shots, rebound, play inside or out, etc.

Many were saying the same thing about Clarke and Cam after their rookie seasons and Cam was 2-3 years older than Smith. He got playing time, but on a bad team that was 26-39 before the bubble and started in the bubble getting the opportunity because Oubre was out.

It is WAY too early to judge Smith at all. He hasn't shown much, but he hasn't had an opportunity to show much either way to make an assessment.
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Re: James Jones as EOY candidate 

Post#80 » by Saberestar » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:36 pm

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