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Top 3 signings MLE/ DPE/ Bi annual you really hope that the suns make in free agency?

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Re: Top 3 signings MLE/ DPE/ Bi annual you really hope that the suns make in free agency? 

Post#41 » by bwoolf2 » Mon Aug 2, 2021 4:48 pm

Barkley6 wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
Barkley6 wrote:
Suns can extend Bridges and Ayton this summer, but the extensions won't count against the cap until next year.

Cam Payne is a top priority to return.

The Suns will be an over the cap team, so they'll have the MLE and BAE.

It is also possibly that they apply for a Disabled Player Exception due to the Dario Saric injury.


The Suns can a lot this offseason but one hopes Sarver understands he will be a luxury payer next year. With that, I am going to let Sarver show me he is going to bring back Payne, extend DA and Mikal and use the MLE and BAE. Just because he can do all those things - doesn't mean he will do all those things.

David Nash mentions that there is an S&T option with Payne - but I am not sure why the Suns wouldn't pay him the $10m unlessthey just do not want too. But I guess it depends on Paynes market.


I really don't see a S&T with Payne. The most we can pay him is $10.5m, if that's enough to sign him we should just sign him for that, its not a big enough contract that it would seriously hurt our cap, and is very trade friendly. The concern would be a team with cap space offering him $12m/season.


I just don't see that type of market for Payne I also don't think the Suns need to bid against themselves thats just bad business, the market for Payne just might not be there not a lot of teams with cap that need a starting pg outside of the Knicks and I don't see then over paying for Payne.
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Re: Top 3 signings MLE/ DPE/ Bi annual you really hope that the suns make in free agency? 

Post#42 » by Mulhollanddrive » Mon Aug 2, 2021 5:28 pm

If you look at Payne's playoff efficiency we should be able to get him for cheaper not more expensive than 2 months ago.
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Re: Top 3 signings MLE/ DPE/ Bi annual you really hope that the suns make in free agency? 

Post#43 » by bwgood77 » Mon Aug 2, 2021 6:43 pm

I can't see us trading Crowder. He was still our 4th best 3pt shooter of regular rotation guys behind Payne, Bridges and Paul...slightly beyond Paul, with no hesitation on letting them go. Due to contrary discussion, he was a lot better than CamJ this season from behind the arc (39% to 35%). I don't expect him to continue to be better but 39% on very high volume is solid. He also provides toughness.

He was also solid in advanced ratings on the defensive end throughout the season. Best on team according to RAPTOR by quite a bit (a rating of 3 while next best were 1.8, 1.7 and 1.4). Also 9th best PF in DRPM and 41st overall, behind Ayton, Bridges and Paul on the defensive end in RPM.

Sure in the defense he got tough assignments in the playoffs, particularly in the finals guarding Giannis quite often, but no one can stop him.

When a highly coveted FA picks the Suns over other teams and the Suns, it's not a good look to trade him. Plus, Monty thinks it's hard to keep him off the floor. I was surprised he got so many more minutes than Bridges or Cam, but Monty obviously really likes him for his energy, willingness to shoot 3s, defense and veteran leadership.

He was a better rebounder at PF than any major rotation guy. Craig averaged more per 36 but isn't as good at anything else other than spurts of defense which he couldn't keep up the whole game.
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Re: Top 3 signings MLE/ DPE/ Bi annual you really hope that the suns make in free agency? 

Post#44 » by bwgood77 » Mon Aug 2, 2021 6:46 pm

Barkley6 wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
Barkley6 wrote:
Suns can extend Bridges and Ayton this summer, but the extensions won't count against the cap until next year.

Cam Payne is a top priority to return.

The Suns will be an over the cap team, so they'll have the MLE and BAE.

It is also possibly that they apply for a Disabled Player Exception due to the Dario Saric injury.


The Suns can a lot this offseason but one hopes Sarver understands he will be a luxury payer next year. With that, I am going to let Sarver show me he is going to bring back Payne, extend DA and Mikal and use the MLE and BAE. Just because he can do all those things - doesn't mean he will do all those things.

David Nash mentions that there is an S&T option with Payne - but I am not sure why the Suns wouldn't pay him the $10m unlessthey just do not want too. But I guess it depends on Paynes market.


I really don't see a S&T with Payne. The most we can pay him is $10.5m, if that's enough to sign him we should just sign him for that, its not a big enough contract that it would seriously hurt our cap, and is very trade friendly. The concern would be a team with cap space offering him $12m/season.


Why would we sign and trade him? Makes no sense. He wants to be here, no one will want to pay him more, and he was solid for us.
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Re: Top 3 signings MLE/ DPE/ Bi annual you really hope that the suns make in free agency? 

Post#45 » by Ghost of Kleine » Mon Aug 2, 2021 9:12 pm

Spoiler:
Saberestar wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Saberestar wrote:Cody Zeller and Andre Iguodala. No need for anyone more.

Not sure how to distribute the money. Probably MLE for Zeller and BAE for Iggy.


Even though I like Zellers' physicality and consistency, He doesn't really offer consistent shotblocking, Nor can he space the floor. Now IF he was willing to take the minimum, Then maybe I'd consider him As a 3rd big replacement for Kaminsky, Or say if we also made sure to add a shotblocking 5 ( Noel or McGee). Then I'd choose between Zeller and Bradley to play as an oversized 4 for their rebounding and post scoring?

Although Tony Bradley also beats Zeller in most statistical categories as well as advanced metrics. So I'd probably lean towards him over Zeller. But no way I'd sign either for more than two to three million tops, As they don't currently provide the two biggest value skills for a modern big yet! They're both basically slight variations of Enes Kanter.


Zeller is in his prime and has started 273 games in his career. He is a known commodity, Bradley has not shown nothing in four years in the league.

Bradley played only decent minutes to end the season on a tanking Thunder team were Poku was shooting like crazy and they were happy losing by 25 every game. You can not compare him to Cody Zeller.

Zeller is a very good defender. Currently block shots are not everything for a C on defense, we all have been praising Ayton for his defense and he does not block shots.

He is agile, tough, smart and can really switch on the perimeter. Great rebounder and good finisher around the rim.

Read on Twitter


Zeller is in his prime and has started 273 games in his career. He is a known commodity, Bradley has not shown nothing in four years in the league.


So Zeller in his prime is averaging:
8 points/ 6 rebounds/ 0.4 blocks/ 1.8 assists to 1.1 turnovers. As an 8 yr veteran and " Known commodity " are those type of numbers for A STARTER considered starting level or more bench level production?? There are a lot of known commodities in the NBA, Does that distinction make them good, starter level or even relevant? I'd argue that Zellers' starts are more of a by product of being on a low end non playoff lottery team ( similar to the Thunder actually) :wink: with no high end or elite competition to really displace him as they were never a free agent destination now were they?

Does that mean that Zeller isn't any good, Not at all! As you've already pointed out, He's an above average defender ( 111.7 defensive rating)
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/cody-zeller-defense-rating-this-year

( at least outside the paint) on switches. I mean don't get me wrong, I love his tenacity, hustle, Taking charges, and willingness to be physical and challenge shots. But opponents shot over 60% within 6 ft of the rim with him defending them! And he's also not actually a really good rebounder either.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.atthehive.com/platform/amp/2020/11/29/21724470/analyzing-the-center-position-in-charlotte-hornets-cody-zeller-bismack-biyombo

Despite being the tallest center on the roster and averaging the most rebounds, Zeller still isn’t a very good rebounder overall. When looking at centers who averaged at least seven boards a night, Zeller ranked dead last in rebound chance percentage. This means that of the 14.2 chances a night he had to rebound the ball, he only grabbed 7.1, which adds up to the worst percentage of that group. As well as being a below average rebounder, Zeller’s defense is also very questionable. When going up against Zeller within six feet of the basket last season, opponents shot 61.9%. This ranked bottom 12 in the league amongst centers who played in at least 30 games.


So other than his solid switching and hustle dirtworker defense, He's basically another Kanter or Okafor. But without the three point shot! Still, I'd like him for his intangibles, hustle, physicality and of course switch defense :wink: still though he does hold value for his above mentioned intangibles. And I wouldn't mind him at the 4 ALONGSIDE of a legitimate shotblocking 5. As he could be an upgrade to Saric and Kaminsky nevertheless.

Bradley played only decent minutes to end the season on a tanking Thunder team were Poku was shooting like crazy and they were happy losing by 25 every game. You can not compare him to Cody Zeller.

Yes, I can compare the two, As they're very similar in that they're both offensively efficient big in the post that aren't elite at anything really, Both put up good numbers sporadically. But are inconsistent and haven't really taken a jump in their progression since being in the league, And neither are legitimate shotblockers for their size, Nor do either have a respectable 3 point shot currently in their toolbox. Also, Neither would be considered high end free agent targets. So yes, they're similar in many ways. Only Bradley appears to best Zeller in most statistical categories including advanced metrics. And on fewer minutes, regardless of rotation classification or experience. :-?

Zeller is a very good defender. Currently block shots are not everything for a C on defense, we all have been praising Ayton for his defense and he does not block shots.


Again, I do like him for his intangibles and his physicality primarily. But his defensive rating measured out as 111.7 with is slightly above the average. So he's slightly above average due to his aggressiveness and physicality. Also, Whilst I agree with you that block shots are not everything, In the playoffs they're very important to shutting down penetration and high percentage shots that get opposing teams into a rythym when their outside shots aren't falling! I mean Giannis' shotblocking turned the tide of more than a few games in the finals and was a huge part of our collapse due to us not being able to get any offense going when our threes weren't falling! Including this key play on Ayton himself that basically sealed the win for the championship for the bucks!
SportsCenter (@SportsCenter) Tweeted:
CLUTCH BLOCK BY GIANNIS https://t.co/jwB0b75o65
Read on Twitter
?s=20
So let's not minimize the importance of legitimate rim protection!

we all have been praising Ayton for his defense and he does not block shots.
Ayton doesn't block shots? :o

https://craftednba.com/players/deandre-ayton
Ayton is in the 86th percentile. Also,

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/fantasy/basketball/news/suns-deandre-ayton-blocks-five-shots-in-win/amp/

Suns' Deandre Ayton: Blocks five shots in win

By RotoWire Staff

 May 5, 2021

Ayton continued his strong interior defense by matching his season-high block total and swatting three-plus shots for the second consecutive game. 




Are you sure you don't think he blocks shots? Because it seems like that is one of his biggest improvements. I believe he's gone from 0.9 to 1.9 ( almost 2 blocks a game) compare that to Zellers ' ( 0.4) blocks! The same as Frank Kaminsky this last season by the way.
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=kaminfr01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id1=zelleco01&p2yrfrom=2021&sum=0&request=1

He is agile, tough, smart and can really switch on the perimeter. Great rebounder and good finisher around the rim.

Agree with everything here but the " great rebounder comment. But again I'd like to have him. But in the right context ( big 4 alongside a legitimate shotblocker) for his switch defense, size, tenacity, physicality and hustle. Again as a bigger version of Saric, Only without the three point shooting or passing. Which put Sarics' value at around 8 million. So without the floor spacing or above average passing, For me at least, I'd put his value in the 2-3 million scale range. As he's the ultimate low ceiling, high floor hustle energy dirtworker.

I guess we'll see if I'm accurate very soon huh?...lol. :dontknow:
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Re: Top 3 signings MLE/ DPE/ Bi annual you really hope that the suns make in free agency? 

Post#46 » by Mulhollanddrive » Tue Aug 3, 2021 8:45 am

Payne for $6.5m is a good get, think the experience in playoffs will make him better next time around.

McGee I would like to see a challenger like a 2A / 2B so we don't have to rely on him for 100 games.
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Re: Top 3 signings MLE/ DPE/ Bi annual you really hope that the suns make in free agency? 

Post#47 » by RedIndian » Tue Aug 3, 2021 8:53 am

I think we'll still get another big. I'd like Moe Wagner. Lots of untapped potential both offensively and defensively. Also a lot more athletic than Frank.
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Re: Top 3 signings MLE/ DPE/ Bi annual you really hope that the suns make in free agency? 

Post#48 » by Ghost of Kleine » Tue Aug 3, 2021 10:27 am

RedIndian wrote:I think we'll still get another big. I'd like Moe Wagner. Lots of untapped potential both offensively and defensively. Also a lot more athletic than Frank.


I agree! If it's for rebounding ( non rim protection/shotblocking) and post scoring purposes, This may rub people the wrong way a bit. But I really do like Enes Kanter for the other half of MLE? He's got legitimate size at 6'11 250 lbs. But even though he doesn't really block shots or protect the rim, He's absolutely an elite rebounder! And we still desperately need that.
He's had some absurd outputs in various games over the season too.

- 24 points/12 rebounds against the Warriors on January 3rd 2021.
- 24 points/ 30 rebounds/ 2 blocks against the Pistons on April 10th 2021.
- 22 points/ 21 rebounds against the Kings on March 4th 2021.
- 22points/ 19 rebounds against the Celtics on January 11th 2021.
- 12points/ 15 rebounds/ 5 BLOCKS!!! against the Atlanta hawks on January 17th 2021.

I just think that he could really address our post production/ rebounding issues very well and on the cheap! ( likely for 5 million or less)!

But if it's for a secondary shotblocking defensive 7 fter ( I think it'd be good to have) especially against those really big teams that have multiple bigs on their frontline ( Flakers, Bucks) etc. It really has to be Robin Lopez defensively!
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/briansampson/2020/06/12/bucks-film-room-dont-sleep-on-robin-lopez-defense/amp/
He makes life difficult for anybody trying to score around the rim; contesting 22.7 shots per 36 minutes—the second-highest in the NBA. Rudy Gobert is all the way down at 17.1 contested shots.

Not only does he contest a lot of shots, but he’s damn good at it as well. Among the 52 centers who defend at least seven shots per game, he’s tied with Kristaps Porzingis and Hassan Whiteside for 14th in field goal percentage allowed at 45 percentThat’s better than defensive stalwarts like Myles Turner, Steven Adams and Joel Embiid.


Robin Lopez is 7'0 ft with a 7'6 ( same as AD) wingspan by the way. I'd love knowing that we actually had multiple rim protectors behind Ayton too! Would be great against Davis/ Gasol or Davis/ Howard. Also against the Bucks with Giannis/ Brook Lopez. We need to add serious frontcourt size! So the way I see it, We need not only McGee ( Saric replacement) But also another 7 ft big to replace Kaminsky too. I know that he's a good cheerleader, But we need to win games more than have a goofy big on the sidelines for comic relief!
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Re: Top 3 signings MLE/ DPE/ Bi annual you really hope that the suns make in free agency? 

Post#49 » by Banana Milk » Tue Aug 3, 2021 2:22 pm

I’d be interested in Millsap for the DPE
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Re: Top 3 signings MLE/ DPE/ Bi annual you really hope that the suns make in free agency? 

Post#50 » by Years90Suns » Tue Aug 3, 2021 2:51 pm

bwgood77 wrote:I can't see us trading Crowder. He was still our 4th best 3pt shooter of regular rotation guys behind Payne, Bridges and Paul...slightly beyond Paul, with no hesitation on letting them go. Due to contrary discussion, he was a lot better than CamJ this season from behind the arc (39% to 35%). I don't expect him to continue to be better but 39% on very high volume is solid. He also provides toughness.

He was also solid in advanced ratings on the defensive end throughout the season. Best on team according to RAPTOR by quite a bit (a rating of 3 while next best were 1.8, 1.7 and 1.4). Also 9th best PF in DRPM and 41st overall, behind Ayton, Bridges and Paul on the defensive end in RPM.

Sure in the defense he got tough assignments in the playoffs, particularly in the finals guarding Giannis quite often, but no one can stop him.

When a highly coveted FA picks the Suns over other teams and the Suns, it's not a good look to trade him. Plus, Monty thinks it's hard to keep him off the floor. I was surprised he got so many more minutes than Bridges or Cam, but Monty obviously really likes him for his energy, willingness to shoot 3s, defense and veteran leadership.

He was a better rebounder at PF than any major rotation guy. Craig averaged more per 36 but isn't as good at anything else other than spurts of defense which he couldn't keep up the whole game.



I would look for a diifferent player at the PF position. Crowder offers very small athletic abilities and then he would probably will have to dance with the likes of Giannis and AD.
My concern is that he has been a good fit to Ayton and a better player could be a worse fit, although theoretically both on their sides are better players.

I cannot think of a PF that could enter Crowder's position in the SL for the same salary.
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Re: Top 3 signings MLE/ DPE/ Bi annual you really hope that the suns make in free agency? 

Post#51 » by Ghost of Kleine » Tue Aug 3, 2021 3:46 pm

Tony Bradley incoming! But there's still a chance for Bjelica???
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