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2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation

Moderators: bwgood77, Kerrsed, Qwigglez, lilfishi22

Grade the Suns off-season moves so far

A
3
4%
B
40
60%
C
20
30%
D
4
6%
F
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 67

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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4281 » by bwgood77 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:14 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:FLEX From Jersey (@FlexFromJersey) Tweeted:
James Jones is good at negotiating trades. He will wait as long as needed until he gets the deal he wants. He sat on the CP3 deal for months until it was the deal he wanted. This deal should be no different, Suns won't bid against themselves. I trust James Jones & Company! https://t.co/j9Xgjl5EKB
Read on Twitter
?s=20


He didn't sit on it for months...it was processed a month after the NBA finals concluded, even before the draft....and they probably haggled a bit over the pick protections for a week or so.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4282 » by bwgood77 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:19 am

Slim Charless wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Whilst I love Mikal and his incredible versatility/ upside, Your proposal ( when considering our imminent cap implications) along with the likelihood of one of either Bridges or Cam being pushed out due to discontent from salary disparity or cap constraints, Seems like the most reasonable course of action, rather than simply losing Bridges to an escalated offer or Cam Johnson to possibly being disgruntled if we can't afford to offer him what he fully thinks he is worth (within market value). Or if in signing Bridges to an excess of 20+ million would leave us hamstrung financially to where we can't offer Cam his full market value or something comparable to what Bridges recieved!

Could this potentially create some hurt feelings or chemistry issues ( jealousy) in the locker room. IF we had to choose between the two of Cam and Bridges, Knowing we'd have to lose one or the other due to cap constraints, AND their anticipated projections, Who would you choose honestly.

Again, I love Bridges skillset/ upside. But things are going to be really tight for us financially next summer, Even before Johnson's and Smith's extensions come due. We really need that young incoming talent that can serve as salary ballast to our max contracts, and also provide a modicum of rotational insurance against possibly losing them to varying circumstances. Bridges could've likely gotten us the two lottery worthy players on rookie scale contracts.

We could've ended up with a Davion Mitchell - Moses Moody, Davion Mitchell/ Tre Murphy, or a Jonathan Kuminga/ Jared Butler. Or a Davion Mitchell/ Jalen Johnson. And then still flipped our 29th pick/ Carter to Brooklyn for Shamet. I get that we're competing for a title, But IF we can't close the deal on a championship before Paul leaves in 2024, Then Things could get really dicey not only with Booker, But also with Johnson and Bridges/ Ayton contractually in 2022/2023.

I just hope that we can REALISTICALLY keep our core together, Resign Cam and Smith, And still fill out the team reasonably to remain competitive. But I worry that we may be following in the Thunders' footsteps when they had tough decisions to make with : Westbrook/ Harden/ Durant/ Ibaka??
This concern only further exacerbated by Savers financial inadequacies :o :-?

As I mentioned in my reply to Slim, you're risking a lot for the tiny risk that someone might clear enough space to throw Bridges a max offer. You don't know if the guy you pick up in the top 5 will even end up being as good a player as Bridges. We don't know what Cam is worth when it comes time for his deal to be extended and I think you're assuming a lot of things like hurt feelings and chemistry issues to justify a pretty significant trade. If anything, I think there would be more of a risk of chemistry issues if you traded away a great team guy in Mikal who by all accounts is great friends with Cam, for a top 5 guy who likely has an ego. I think you're jumping the gun with a move like this.


I think a team like ORL/NYK/HOU/DET wouldn't hesitate to throw a max deal at him. All of them should have the money to do so this summer I think as well.


I think there are already some around the league that think he's worth a max, or near max, and I think he will refine/add onto areas of his game this summer....and as I've mentioned a lot, think he can be like a Paul George light type. He may simply look like a max player next summer.

Even if he didn't make strides, people would offer more next summer because the cap is going up...the relative avg salary will go up, etc.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4283 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:27 am

Slim Charless wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Whilst I love Mikal and his incredible versatility/ upside, Your proposal ( when considering our imminent cap implications) along with the likelihood of one of either Bridges or Cam being pushed out due to discontent from salary disparity or cap constraints, Seems like the most reasonable course of action, rather than simply losing Bridges to an escalated offer or Cam Johnson to possibly being disgruntled if we can't afford to offer him what he fully thinks he is worth (within market value). Or if in signing Bridges to an excess of 20+ million would leave us hamstrung financially to where we can't offer Cam his full market value or something comparable to what Bridges recieved!

Could this potentially create some hurt feelings or chemistry issues ( jealousy) in the locker room. IF we had to choose between the two of Cam and Bridges, Knowing we'd have to lose one or the other due to cap constraints, AND their anticipated projections, Who would you choose honestly.

Again, I love Bridges skillset/ upside. But things are going to be really tight for us financially next summer, Even before Johnson's and Smith's extensions come due. We really need that young incoming talent that can serve as salary ballast to our max contracts, and also provide a modicum of rotational insurance against possibly losing them to varying circumstances. Bridges could've likely gotten us the two lottery worthy players on rookie scale contracts.

We could've ended up with a Davion Mitchell - Moses Moody, Davion Mitchell/ Tre Murphy, or a Jonathan Kuminga/ Jared Butler. Or a Davion Mitchell/ Jalen Johnson. And then still flipped our 29th pick/ Carter to Brooklyn for Shamet. I get that we're competing for a title, But IF we can't close the deal on a championship before Paul leaves in 2024, Then Things could get really dicey not only with Booker, But also with Johnson and Bridges/ Ayton contractually in 2022/2023.

I just hope that we can REALISTICALLY keep our core together, Resign Cam and Smith, And still fill out the team reasonably to remain competitive. But I worry that we may be following in the Thunders' footsteps when they had tough decisions to make with : Westbrook/ Harden/ Durant/ Ibaka??
This concern only further exacerbated by Savers financial inadequacies :o :-?

As I mentioned in my reply to Slim, you're risking a lot for the tiny risk that someone might clear enough space to throw Bridges a max offer. You don't know if the guy you pick up in the top 5 will even end up being as good a player as Bridges. We don't know what Cam is worth when it comes time for his deal to be extended and I think you're assuming a lot of things like hurt feelings and chemistry issues to justify a pretty significant trade. If anything, I think there would be more of a risk of chemistry issues if you traded away a great team guy in Mikal who by all accounts is great friends with Cam, for a top 5 guy who likely has an ego. I think you're jumping the gun with a move like this.


I think a team like ORL/NYK/HOU/DET wouldn't hesitate to throw a max deal at him. All of them should have the money to do so this summer I think as well.

They might have money but are they committing max money to Bridges? Is he the premier FA signing for the upward trending New York Knicks? I love his fit with virtually every team but that doesn't necessarily mean you throw max money at him nor tie up all your cap space to make an offer to him that the Suns are more likely than not to match.

The other question is whether it's the worst thing to wait to see what the market offers him? The max the market can pay him is around $25m and if we're looking at the low $20m region anyway then it's <$5m difference per year. I don't think it's a crazy jump unless our front office thinks his value is closer to say $18m a year. I've never been a proponent of extending a player on their rookie contract as soon as they become eligible unless you can get him on a great deal or if a max is a no brainer.

And my point before was also that we do need to be extra careful signing these big extensions willy-nilly because of our forthcoming tax situation but that factor is just not significant enough for me to consider moving him for another shot at the lottery. I mean.....we drafted Mikal #10 overall (after a trade) and we arguably won the lottery with this pick if he's been discussed for a max or near max rookie extension. Trading him for a high pick would be like using all of your winnings after winning the lottery to buy more lottery tickets....
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4284 » by Slim Charless » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:27 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:As I mentioned in my reply to Slim, you're risking a lot for the tiny risk that someone might clear enough space to throw Bridges a max offer. You don't know if the guy you pick up in the top 5 will even end up being as good a player as Bridges. We don't know what Cam is worth when it comes time for his deal to be extended and I think you're assuming a lot of things like hurt feelings and chemistry issues to justify a pretty significant trade. If anything, I think there would be more of a risk of chemistry issues if you traded away a great team guy in Mikal who by all accounts is great friends with Cam, for a top 5 guy who likely has an ego. I think you're jumping the gun with a move like this.


I think a team like ORL/NYK/HOU/DET wouldn't hesitate to throw a max deal at him. All of them should have the money to do so this summer I think as well.


I think there are already some around the league that think he's worth a max, or near max, and I think he will refine/add onto areas of his game this summer....and as I've mentioned a lot, think he can be like a Paul George light type. He may simply look like a max player next summer.

Even if he didn't make strides, people would offer more next summer because the cap is going up...the relative avg salary will go up, etc.


I agree 100% and I forgot about the cap going up. He's getting a max or near max from another team when it's time. Those teams I mentioned will have no problem with offering him a deal-a big one.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4285 » by bwgood77 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:43 am

Slim Charless wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
I think a team like ORL/NYK/HOU/DET wouldn't hesitate to throw a max deal at him. All of them should have the money to do so this summer I think as well.


I think there are already some around the league that think he's worth a max, or near max, and I think he will refine/add onto areas of his game this summer....and as I've mentioned a lot, think he can be like a Paul George light type. He may simply look like a max player next summer.

Even if he didn't make strides, people would offer more next summer because the cap is going up...the relative avg salary will go up, etc.


I agree 100% and I forgot about the cap going up. He's getting a max or near max from another team when it's time. Those teams I mentioned will have no problem with offering him a deal-a big one.


I probably would have started negotiating at 4/$75 and maybe he wanted 4/$110...so then you meet somewhere in the middle at like 4/$92.5.

I think the Gordon deal sounds about right...I'd go higher though if I had to. I doubt he will accept less next summer. Then you know what you have to work with going into next summer too and can plan ahead.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4286 » by Slim Charless » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:49 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
I think there are already some around the league that think he's worth a max, or near max, and I think he will refine/add onto areas of his game this summer....and as I've mentioned a lot, think he can be like a Paul George light type. He may simply look like a max player next summer.

Even if he didn't make strides, people would offer more next summer because the cap is going up...the relative avg salary will go up, etc.


I agree 100% and I forgot about the cap going up. He's getting a max or near max from another team when it's time. Those teams I mentioned will have no problem with offering him a deal-a big one.


I probably would have started negotiating at 4/$75 and maybe he wanted 4/$110...so then you meet somewhere in the middle at like 4/$92.5.

I think the Gordon deal sounds about right...I'd go higher though if I had to. I doubt he will accept less next summer. Then you know what you have to work with going into next summer too and can plan ahead.


Bridges is better than Gordon....and younger. He's gonna get a bigger deal or at least he's gonna want one.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4287 » by bwgood77 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:52 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:As I mentioned in my reply to Slim, you're risking a lot for the tiny risk that someone might clear enough space to throw Bridges a max offer. You don't know if the guy you pick up in the top 5 will even end up being as good a player as Bridges. We don't know what Cam is worth when it comes time for his deal to be extended and I think you're assuming a lot of things like hurt feelings and chemistry issues to justify a pretty significant trade. If anything, I think there would be more of a risk of chemistry issues if you traded away a great team guy in Mikal who by all accounts is great friends with Cam, for a top 5 guy who likely has an ego. I think you're jumping the gun with a move like this.


I think a team like ORL/NYK/HOU/DET wouldn't hesitate to throw a max deal at him. All of them should have the money to do so this summer I think as well.

They might have money but are they committing max money to Bridges? Is he the premier FA signing for the upward trending New York Knicks? I love his fit with virtually every team but that doesn't necessarily mean you throw max money at him nor tie up all your cap space to make an offer to him that the Suns are more likely than not to match.

The other question is whether it's the worst thing to wait to see what the market offers him? The max the market can pay him is around $25m and if we're looking at the low $20m region anyway then it's <$5m difference per year. I don't think it's a crazy jump unless our front office thinks his value is closer to say $18m a year. I've never been a proponent of extending a player on their rookie contract as soon as they become eligible unless you can get him on a great deal or if a max is a no brainer.

And my point before was also that we do need to be extra careful signing these big extensions willy-nilly because of our forthcoming tax situation but that factor is just not significant enough for me to consider moving him for another shot at the lottery. I mean.....we drafted Mikal #10 overall (after a trade) and we arguably won the lottery with this pick if he's been discussed for a max or near max rookie extension. Trading him for a high pick would be like using all of your winnings after winning the lottery to buy more lottery tickets....


A max for a player under 6 years is 25% of cap. Right now cap is $112. Next year it is projected to jump to $119. 25% of that is about $30 million a year. I don't think he will get close to a max, unless he was to take a huge step forward as a go to scorer...the thing is, I think it's something that is within him, but he won't do it as a 4th option. This is probably a good thing for his contract.

But I do think his value will be higher next summer even if he is the same player. Now that could be a reason his agent wants to wait...though most players and agents would want to lock in a huge payday just for security, in case of injury, agent commission, etc.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4288 » by Ghost of Kleine » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:03 am

Spoiler:
lilfishi22 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:[spoiler]
Slim Charless wrote:


That's the issue I brought up around the draft when I suggested that it might not be TERRIBLE idea if we moved Mikal for a top 5 pick. I think that he's getting a max deal from someone-if only to force us to match. Some other team will give him that deal. I still think we might end up doing that.


Spoiler:
Whilst I love Mikal and his incredible versatility/ upside, Your proposal ( when considering our imminent cap implications) along with the likelihood of one of either Bridges or Cam being pushed out due to discontent from salary disparity or cap constraints, Seems like the most reasonable course of action, rather than simply losing Bridges to an escalated offer or Cam Johnson to possibly being disgruntled if we can't afford to offer him what he fully thinks he is worth (within market value). Or if in signing Bridges to an excess of 20+ million would leave us hamstrung financially to where we can't offer Cam his full market value or something comparable to what Bridges recieved!

Could this potentially create some hurt feelings or chemistry issues ( jealousy) in the locker room. IF we had to choose between the two of Cam and Bridges, Knowing we'd have to lose one or the other due to cap constraints, AND their anticipated projections, Who would you choose honestly.

Again, I love Bridges skillset/ upside. But things are going to be really tight for us financially next summer, Even before Johnson's and Smith's extensions come due. We really need that young incoming talent that can serve as salary ballast to our max contracts, and also provide a modicum of rotational insurance against possibly losing them to varying circumstances. Bridges could've likely gotten us the two lottery worthy players on rookie scale contracts.

We could've ended up with a Davion Mitchell - Moses Moody, Davion Mitchell/ Tre Murphy, or a Jonathan Kuminga/ Jared Butler. Or a Davion Mitchell/ Jalen Johnson. And then still flipped our 29th pick/ Carter to Brooklyn for Shamet. I get that we're competing for a title, But IF we can't close the deal on a championship before Paul leaves in 2024, Then Things could get really dicey not only with Booker, But also with Johnson and Bridges/ Ayton contractually in 2022/2023.

I just hope that we can REALISTICALLY keep our core together, Resign Cam and Smith, And still fill out the team reasonably to remain competitive. But I worry that we may be following in the Thunders' footsteps when they had tough decisions to make with : Westbrook/ Harden/ Durant/ Ibaka??
This concern only further exacerbated by Savers financial inadequacies :o :-?


As I mentioned in my reply to Slim, you're risking a lot for the tiny risk that someone might clear enough space to throw Bridges a max offer. You don't know if the guy you pick up in the top 5 will even end up being as good a player as Bridges. We don't know what Cam is worth when it comes time for his deal to be extended and I think you're assuming a lot of things like hurt feelings and chemistry issues to justify a pretty significant trade. If anything, I think there would be more of a risk of chemistry issues if you traded away a great team guy in Mikal who by all accounts is great friends with Cam, for a top 5 guy who likely has an ego. I think you're jumping the gun with a move like this.


As I mentioned in my reply to Slim, you're risking a lot for the tiny risk that someone might clear enough space to throw Bridges a max offer.

Well, The Pistons, Spurs and Magic are all projected to have significant cap space in 2022 free agency. And Bridges would definitely be a big name in an underwhelming free agency that summer too. But I'd argue the bigger legitimate concern would be in what his projected market value might come in at? Anything over 20+ million would significantly hamstring us going into Johnson's and Smith's extensions as well in 2023. And IF we don't pay him what he and his agent feel he's worth, and he feels disrespected by chance, Then he may just take the qualifying offer, and in 2023:

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/cap/2022/
There are-
Detroit, OKC, New York, Charlotte, Houston, San Antonio, Memphis all with max cap space. I realize that yes, These are hypothetical situations. And hopefully everything plays out best case scenario. But there'll definitely be interested teams willing to offer him in the max/ near max range.

You don't know if the guy you pick up in the top 5 will even end up being as good a player as Bridges.
Definitely a fair perspective! However, it seems that the players that I specifically mentioned have excelled in their debuts and have really good projections from many of the nba experts on the draft. Is there an attached risk, of course. But there upside/ contractual obligation being lower than Mikals projected 20+ million make it much more palatable if the skillset and positional fit is optimal.

We don't know what Cam is worth when it comes time for his deal to be extended and I think you're assuming a lot of things like hurt feelings and chemistry issues to justify a pretty significant trade.

If Cam has another good showing throughout the season as what he showed in the playoffs and given his versatility and knockdown floor spacing ability for a 6'9 player, Do you think it's unreasonable/ unrealistic that his market value would be that far off from Mikals? Especially if you compare their overall stats?

If anything, I think there would be more of a risk of chemistry issues if you traded away a great team guy in Mikal who by all accounts is great friends with Cam, for a top 5 guy who likely has an ego. I think you're jumping the gun with a move like this.

Again, I like Mikal and wouldn't prefer to trade him UNLESS we anticipated/ expected him to get an offer/ command an amount bigger than what we deem reasonable to pay? Now I do hope that we can resign him, Just not at 20 million or more. And Especially not at an absurd 25+ million. IF the expected or (communicated) amount is in that range, Then I'd absolutely look to trade him for that type of package as it would allow us to resign Johnson at a slightly lesser amount, And still maintain flexibility to fill out the roster. Also, Cam may be good friends with Mikal currently. But it wouldn't be the first time that money or contractual disparity among similar positional players have caused locker room issues or potential trade requests. A good example is Shawn Marion feeling slighted by not getting a comparable extension offer to Amare. And I'm sure there are other examples as well. The premise of the trade would've been a two for one- the 7th and 14th pick or something along those lines for Mikal ( under the premise that we expect to lose him anyways). So I'd see it as good constellation value in that circumstance. But to your point, Not all lottery picks have ego issues. But for the few that do, that's why predraft interviews/ player profiles are important! But also in a two for one, Our odds of finding a comparable talent/ projected contributor are greatly increased. And yes, legitimate concerns aside, I absolutely will admit that I quite likely could be jumping the gun! :nod:

FWIW, I do hope that they prove me wrong. And that we can keep our core together.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4289 » by Ghost of Kleine » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:42 am

Valley of the Suns (@ValleyoftheSuns) Tweeted:
Donovan Mitchell thinks the Jazz would have beaten the @Suns and won the NBA Finals last year had he been healthy. Here's why he's wrong. https://t.co/AVS12f0xt9
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4290 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:03 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:[spoiler]
lilfishi22 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:[spoiler]

[spoiler]Whilst I love Mikal and his incredible versatility/ upside, Your proposal ( when considering our imminent cap implications) along with the likelihood of one of either Bridges or Cam being pushed out due to discontent from salary disparity or cap constraints, Seems like the most reasonable course of action, rather than simply losing Bridges to an escalated offer or Cam Johnson to possibly being disgruntled if we can't afford to offer him what he fully thinks he is worth (within market value). Or if in signing Bridges to an excess of 20+ million would leave us hamstrung financially to where we can't offer Cam his full market value or something comparable to what Bridges recieved!

Could this potentially create some hurt feelings or chemistry issues ( jealousy) in the locker room. IF we had to choose between the two of Cam and Bridges, Knowing we'd have to lose one or the other due to cap constraints, AND their anticipated projections, Who would you choose honestly.

Again, I love Bridges skillset/ upside. But things are going to be really tight for us financially next summer, Even before Johnson's and Smith's extensions come due. We really need that young incoming talent that can serve as salary ballast to our max contracts, and also provide a modicum of rotational insurance against possibly losing them to varying circumstances. Bridges could've likely gotten us the two lottery worthy players on rookie scale contracts.

We could've ended up with a Davion Mitchell - Moses Moody, Davion Mitchell/ Tre Murphy, or a Jonathan Kuminga/ Jared Butler. Or a Davion Mitchell/ Jalen Johnson. And then still flipped our 29th pick/ Carter to Brooklyn for Shamet. I get that we're competing for a title, But IF we can't close the deal on a championship before Paul leaves in 2024, Then Things could get really dicey not only with Booker, But also with Johnson and Bridges/ Ayton contractually in 2022/2023.

I just hope that we can REALISTICALLY keep our core together, Resign Cam and Smith, And still fill out the team reasonably to remain competitive. But I worry that we may be following in the Thunders' footsteps when they had tough decisions to make with : Westbrook/ Harden/ Durant/ Ibaka??
This concern only further exacerbated by Savers financial inadequacies :o :-?


As I mentioned in my reply to Slim, you're risking a lot for the tiny risk that someone might clear enough space to throw Bridges a max offer. You don't know if the guy you pick up in the top 5 will even end up being as good a player as Bridges. We don't know what Cam is worth when it comes time for his deal to be extended and I think you're assuming a lot of things like hurt feelings and chemistry issues to justify a pretty significant trade. If anything, I think there would be more of a risk of chemistry issues if you traded away a great team guy in Mikal who by all accounts is great friends with Cam, for a top 5 guy who likely has an ego. I think you're jumping the gun with a move like this.


As I mentioned in my reply to Slim, you're risking a lot for the tiny risk that someone might clear enough space to throw Bridges a max offer.

Well, The Pistons, Spurs and Magic are all projected to have significant cap space in 2022 free agency. And Bridges would definitely be a big name in an underwhelming free agency that summer too. But I'd argue the bigger legitimate concern would be in what his projected market value might come in at? Anything over 20+ million would significantly hamstring us going into Johnson's and Smith's extensions as well in 2023. And IF we don't pay him what he and his agent feel he's worth, and he feels disrespected by chance, Then he may just take the qualifying offer, and in 2023:

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/cap/2022/
There are-
Detroit, OKC, New York, Charlotte, Houston, San Antonio, Memphis all with max cap space. I realize that yes, These are hypothetical situations. And hopefully everything plays out best case scenario. But there'll definitely be interested teams willing to offer him in the max/ near max range.

You don't know if the guy you pick up in the top 5 will even end up being as good a player as Bridges.
Definitely a fair perspective! However, it seems that the players that I specifically mentioned have excelled in their debuts and have really good projections from many of the nba experts on the draft. Is there an attached risk, of course. But there upside/ contractual obligation being lower than Mikals projected 20+ million make it much more palatable if the skillset and positional fit is optimal.

We don't know what Cam is worth when it comes time for his deal to be extended and I think you're assuming a lot of things like hurt feelings and chemistry issues to justify a pretty significant trade.

If Cam has another good showing throughout the season as what he showed in the playoffs and given his versatility and knockdown floor spacing ability for a 6'9 player, Do you think it's unreasonable/ unrealistic that his market value would be that far off from Mikals? Especially if you compare their overall stats?

If anything, I think there would be more of a risk of chemistry issues if you traded away a great team guy in Mikal who by all accounts is great friends with Cam, for a top 5 guy who likely has an ego. I think you're jumping the gun with a move like this.

Again, I like Mikal and wouldn't prefer to trade him UNLESS we anticipated/ expected him to get an offer/ command an amount bigger than what we deem reasonable to pay? Now I do hope that we can resign him, Just not at 20 million or more. And Especially not at an absurd 25+ million. IF the expected or (communicated) amount is in that range, Then I'd absolutely look to trade him for that type of package as it would allow us to resign Johnson at a slightly lesser amount, And still maintain flexibility to fill out the roster. Also, Cam may be good friends with Mikal currently. But it wouldn't be the first time that money or contractual disparity among similar positional players have caused locker room issues or potential trade requests. A good example is Shawn Marion feeling slighted by not getting a comparable extension offer to Amare. And I'm sure there are other examples as well. The premise of the trade would've been a two for one- the 7th and 14th pick or something along those lines for Mikal ( under the premise that we expect to lose him anyways). So I'd see it as good constellation value in that circumstance. But to your point, Not all lottery picks have ego issues. But for the few that do, that's why predraft interviews/ player profiles are important! But also in a two for one, Our odds of finding a comparable talent/ projected contributor are greatly increased. And yes, legitimate concerns aside, I absolutely will admit that I quite likely could be jumping the gun! :nod:

FWIW, I do hope that they prove me wrong. And that we can keep our core together.

I'm sorry but at this point, you're seriously exaggerating the risks.

1. Just a reminder the the original suggestion Slim brought up was to try and move Bridges for the highest pick so the risk we're weighing here is waiting an extra year to see what the market might pay him, potentially piss him off and the implications of luxury tax vs trading him for the highest pick to avoid giving him a max deal and go through crapshoot of the lottery, again. We took a massive gamble trading away two first round picks for Bridges and by all measures he's exceeded expectations, ie we are rare winners in the crapshoot that is the draft. The other "risk" we're trying to mitigate by making this massive move is the small risk a NY, Detroit or some other team would put together a massive offer for Bridges forcing us to match...but the thing is, he'll be a very moveable asset even if we matched. He fits with every team, every contender could use a guy like him and moving him won't be a major issue.

2. Bridges isn't Marion. Marion had been discontent for years and has always wanted the bigger spotlight. Bridges by all accounts is the ultimate team guy, he loves his team mates and hasn't shown any primadonna tendencies or personality Marion did. You can't just pick an example out of the air and say, hey it *could* apply here. ANYTHING *could* happen but unless we see reports or rumors or anything to indicate it's a potential problem, I'm not putting any stock in this.

3. IF we're talking potential chemistry issues, there is an order of magnitude more risk of that being an issue by bringing in a college kid in the top 5 of the lottery who has no experience playing with our guys, no experience winning at the NBA level, hasn't been through in the trenches with the guys and is trying to prove himself at this level. Bridges is the exact opposite, he's been with Ayton and Book since his 1st NBA game, he's been on a team that's won 20 odd games, he's been that 3rd/4th option and imo, the future is going to get brighter in Phoenix if he can become a better offensive player because then he could potentially be a borderline #2 option if he becomes a PG lite. If LT is an issue, you move other guys like CP3, Crowder, Saric, Smith whoever else when the time comes; you do whatever you need to do but move a young, core player.

4. Every team that's drafted well has gone through have had to make these decisions. It's a good problem to have, especially when you're winning. It's just the natural path you take unless you trade away those guys about to be eligible for a rookie extension for a certified top player now. You certainly don't do it for a pick, especially when our aspirations are an NBA Championship in the next few seasons.

5. Just to reiterate the point about the crapshoot of the draft, you can do all the interviews and all the scouting and you're still more likely than not to pick a Josh Jackson, Marvin Bagley or Kris Dunn than you are to pick a Mikal Bridges. I think it's absolutely crazy to trade a certified elite 3&D player that we drafted for another stab in the dark....like I just don't understand what for. If we win the draft again and that player becomes a max level player, then what? We do the same thing lol?
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4291 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:08 am

bwgood77 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
I think a team like ORL/NYK/HOU/DET wouldn't hesitate to throw a max deal at him. All of them should have the money to do so this summer I think as well.

They might have money but are they committing max money to Bridges? Is he the premier FA signing for the upward trending New York Knicks? I love his fit with virtually every team but that doesn't necessarily mean you throw max money at him nor tie up all your cap space to make an offer to him that the Suns are more likely than not to match.

The other question is whether it's the worst thing to wait to see what the market offers him? The max the market can pay him is around $25m and if we're looking at the low $20m region anyway then it's <$5m difference per year. I don't think it's a crazy jump unless our front office thinks his value is closer to say $18m a year. I've never been a proponent of extending a player on their rookie contract as soon as they become eligible unless you can get him on a great deal or if a max is a no brainer.

And my point before was also that we do need to be extra careful signing these big extensions willy-nilly because of our forthcoming tax situation but that factor is just not significant enough for me to consider moving him for another shot at the lottery. I mean.....we drafted Mikal #10 overall (after a trade) and we arguably won the lottery with this pick if he's been discussed for a max or near max rookie extension. Trading him for a high pick would be like using all of your winnings after winning the lottery to buy more lottery tickets....


A max for a player under 6 years is 25% of cap. Right now cap is $112. Next year it is projected to jump to $119. 25% of that is about $30 million a year. I don't think he will get close to a max, unless he was to take a huge step forward as a go to scorer...the thing is, I think it's something that is within him, but he won't do it as a 4th option. This is probably a good thing for his contract.

But I do think his value will be higher next summer even if he is the same player. Now that could be a reason his agent wants to wait...though most players and agents would want to lock in a huge payday just for security, in case of injury, agent commission, etc.

I'm sure that's the reason. It makes sense for the Suns to do our due diligence to offer him a competitive but perhaps a little below market deal to see if he'd sign. Understandably, Mikal's team would review the offer and reject it to earn more in the following season. The assumption is that the Suns have already agreed internally that Ayton is in line for a max deal so it makes financial sense to give Mikal as little as they reasonable can unless their hand is forced.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4292 » by bwgood77 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:14 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:They might have money but are they committing max money to Bridges? Is he the premier FA signing for the upward trending New York Knicks? I love his fit with virtually every team but that doesn't necessarily mean you throw max money at him nor tie up all your cap space to make an offer to him that the Suns are more likely than not to match.

The other question is whether it's the worst thing to wait to see what the market offers him? The max the market can pay him is around $25m and if we're looking at the low $20m region anyway then it's <$5m difference per year. I don't think it's a crazy jump unless our front office thinks his value is closer to say $18m a year. I've never been a proponent of extending a player on their rookie contract as soon as they become eligible unless you can get him on a great deal or if a max is a no brainer.

And my point before was also that we do need to be extra careful signing these big extensions willy-nilly because of our forthcoming tax situation but that factor is just not significant enough for me to consider moving him for another shot at the lottery. I mean.....we drafted Mikal #10 overall (after a trade) and we arguably won the lottery with this pick if he's been discussed for a max or near max rookie extension. Trading him for a high pick would be like using all of your winnings after winning the lottery to buy more lottery tickets....


A max for a player under 6 years is 25% of cap. Right now cap is $112. Next year it is projected to jump to $119. 25% of that is about $30 million a year. I don't think he will get close to a max, unless he was to take a huge step forward as a go to scorer...the thing is, I think it's something that is within him, but he won't do it as a 4th option. This is probably a good thing for his contract.

But I do think his value will be higher next summer even if he is the same player. Now that could be a reason his agent wants to wait...though most players and agents would want to lock in a huge payday just for security, in case of injury, agent commission, etc.

I'm sure that's the reason. It makes sense for the Suns to do our due diligence to offer him a competitive but perhaps a little below market deal to see if he'd sign. Understandably, Mikal's team would review the offer and reject it to earn more in the following season. The assumption is that the Suns have already agreed internally that Ayton is in line for a max deal so it makes financial sense to give Mikal as little as they reasonable can unless their hand is forced.


I think this new FO and Sarver will give fair deals. I don't think Mikal's team will want to hold out or we will want to offer them as little as possible or look like we are begrudglingly giving him the money next season to match an offer. It has been pretty rare that a team lets a really good player get to where a team lets him sign an offer sheet with another team and match.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4293 » by Slim Charless » Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:37 am

bwgood77 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
A max for a player under 6 years is 25% of cap. Right now cap is $112. Next year it is projected to jump to $119. 25% of that is about $30 million a year. I don't think he will get close to a max, unless he was to take a huge step forward as a go to scorer...the thing is, I think it's something that is within him, but he won't do it as a 4th option. This is probably a good thing for his contract.

But I do think his value will be higher next summer even if he is the same player. Now that could be a reason his agent wants to wait...though most players and agents would want to lock in a huge payday just for security, in case of injury, agent commission, etc.

I'm sure that's the reason. It makes sense for the Suns to do our due diligence to offer him a competitive but perhaps a little below market deal to see if he'd sign. Understandably, Mikal's team would review the offer and reject it to earn more in the following season. The assumption is that the Suns have already agreed internally that Ayton is in line for a max deal so it makes financial sense to give Mikal as little as they reasonable can unless their hand is forced.


I think this new FO and Sarver will give fair deals. I don't think Mikal's team will want to hold out or we will want to offer them as little as possible or look like we are begrudglingly giving him the money next season to match an offer. It has been pretty rare that a team lets a really good player get to where a team lets him sign an offer sheet with another team and match.


Maybe. I would've bet money that SAS was gonna max out Collins since they had the money and a need for someone who can get 20+ PPG and 10 boards. They didn't and ATL got him for a discount imo. Maybe we get lucky and the same thing happens to us.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4294 » by 8on » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:28 am

Sarver doesn't want to break up a contender. If there's a sentiment that he's letting the best team in a decade walk out the door, fan interest will falter and he can't afford that. Whatever it costs to pay Bridges, it'll pay for itself with jerseys and ticket sales.

As for cap implications? We have Bird rights. Bridges is the best fourth scoring option in NBA history. No, seriously. We might be able to find another Cam Johnson if we absolutely have to but I'd rather not. Always feasible to do a sign-and-trade with an interested party. Letting Mikal walk is not an option.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4295 » by Mulhollanddrive » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:50 am

Siakam usage rate went from 15% to 28% from age 23 to 25.

Bridges usage rate is 14% at age 24, if we are paying him $25m he's going to need a significant jump.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4296 » by alamin330 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:48 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:FLEX From Jersey (@FlexFromJersey) Tweeted:
James Jones is good at negotiating trades. He will wait as long as needed until he gets the deal he wants. He sat on the CP3 deal for months until it was the deal he wanted. This deal should be no different, Suns won't bid against themselves. I trust James Jones & Company! https://t.co/j9Xgjl5EKB
Read on Twitter
?s=20


He didn't sit on it for months...it was processed a month after the NBA finals concluded, even before the draft....and they probably haggled a bit over the pick protections for a week or so.

This is cap. James Jones is not good at negotiating trades. He’s given up a lot of assets in trades.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4297 » by Barkley6 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:38 pm

alamin330 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:FLEX From Jersey (@FlexFromJersey) Tweeted:
James Jones is good at negotiating trades. He will wait as long as needed until he gets the deal he wants. He sat on the CP3 deal for months until it was the deal he wanted. This deal should be no different, Suns won't bid against themselves. I trust James Jones & Company! https://t.co/j9Xgjl5EKB
Read on Twitter
?s=20


He didn't sit on it for months...it was processed a month after the NBA finals concluded, even before the draft....and they probably haggled a bit over the pick protections for a week or so.

This is cap. James Jones is not good at negotiating trades. He’s given up a lot of assets in trades.


James Jones is pretty middle of the road. Getting Oubre for Ariza was good, Saric+11 ended up being excellent value, can't argue with the CP3 deal after we went to the Finals, Craig for cash was a savvy move. But he's also had some not so good ones, giving up assets for 1 year of Baynes, attaching assets to TJ Warren, etc.

In general I trust he has a vision, and is pretty good at executing it, but I wouldn't say he's some kind of trade savant.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4298 » by Mulhollanddrive » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:48 pm

Let's say the trade goes ahead and we fill out the roster.

Paul, Booker, Bridges, Crowder, Ayton
Payne, Shamet, Johnson, Young, McGee
Payton, Redick, Nader, Ennis, Kaminsky

Trade - Saric, Smith, 2nd for Young
FA - Redick, Ennis
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4299 » by Saberestar » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:11 pm

Barkley6 wrote:
alamin330 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
He didn't sit on it for months...it was processed a month after the NBA finals concluded, even before the draft....and they probably haggled a bit over the pick protections for a week or so.

This is cap. James Jones is not good at negotiating trades. He’s given up a lot of assets in trades.


James Jones is pretty middle of the road. Getting Oubre for Ariza was good, Saric+11 ended up being excellent value, can't argue with the CP3 deal after we went to the Finals, Craig for cash was a savvy move. But he's also had some not so good ones, giving up assets for 1 year of Baynes, attaching assets to TJ Warren, etc.

In general I trust he has a vision, and is pretty good at executing it, but I wouldn't say he's some kind of trade savant.

His trade for Baynes/Jerome was a good one.

Baynes played his best basketball ever for us and gave us a nice veteran presence for Ayton.

With Ayton's absence for 25 games and then an ankle injury we NEEDED badly a player like Baynes to be competitive all season long. He did his job and some more there.

Then, he got overpaid at his age and we did the right thing not signing back and we bet on Saric as a backup C. It was the right move to do and we would never know if we get the ring with a healthy Saric in the Finals.

Jerome helped us to get CP3. The Thunder wanted a prospect and a pick next to Rubio and Oubre, so like I said I think that trade was really good for us in the short and long run.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4300 » by alamin330 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:55 pm

If Thaddeus young is the best you can do for Saric and Smith I’d take my chances with Smith and Saric. He’s 32, never been on a contender, plays the same position as Crowder and Cam Jo. Spurs don’t even want him on the team. He’s not in their future plans. Why would you trade a prospect a quality role player in Saric and add a 2nd rd pick for a guy who’s gonna be bought out if no one trades for him. SMH. This move is a lateral move at best. Young is not the missing piece. Just wait for the buyout.

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