NapoleonII wrote:Cp3 played 40 mins vs. a team of 3rd stringers.
That's not ideal.
Could be because Monty knows wins will not be easy the next few weeks with all of our injuries. Get them where you can. I could see us getting beat in Utah Wednesday in the same manner we lost today.
Not ideal to have CP3 play 40 minutes last night but you play the game today and figure out tomorrow, tomorrow. Ayton and Crowder get back - that will help the team with scoring and other areas
The Suns just might lose a game because CP3 and Book are truly on a load management schedule. Last nights win gives them an 8 game lead over the Jazz for the 4th spot.
And at some point in the season the Suns will clinch a top 2 seed probably and be able to rest up a bit heading to the playoffs. But Chris Paul is also primed for a push for a title
NapoleonII wrote:Cp3 played 40 mins vs. a team of 3rd stringers.
That's not ideal.
Could be because Monty knows wins will not be easy the next few weeks with all of our injuries. Get them where you can. I could see us getting beat in Utah Wednesday in the same manner we lost today.
Not ideal to have CP3 play 40 minutes last night but you play the game today and figure out tomorrow, tomorrow. Ayton and Crowder get back - that will help the team with scoring and other areas
The Suns just might lose a game because CP3 and Book are truly on a load management schedule. Last nights win gives them an 8 game lead over the Jazz for the 4th spot.
And at some point in the season the Suns will clinch a top 2 seed probably and be able to rest up a bit heading to the playoffs. But Chris Paul is also primed for a push for a title
every game without an additional injury is a win at this point.
Saberestar wrote:I want to ask who is our PG of the future, because I can't imagine a PG on our team playing well enough in the next couple of years.
Seriously, what a master performance by CP3. That was a clinic.
Who is our PGOTF? Who the hell knows?
I think it's pretty clear it won't be Payne or Payton as neither of them have the impact of Paul by any stretch of the imagination.
Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk
Didn't you notice the green font?CP3 is not slowing down.
It is weird that people keep asking who is gonna be our PG in the future...what about that guy named Paul who is Top 5 in MVP race this season?
Obviously you are mostly referring to me, but I was talking 2 or 3 to 10 years out with this core. I don't think he will play until he is in his 40s. No one does really. I mean never say never. I've always said I think he can continue at a high level next year. The year after that maybe, but I imagine a decline comes around 38, like with Nash.
PGoTF is who we would be grooming now for long term, not who will play next year or maybe the year after.
When asked how Fascism starts, Bertrand Russell once said: "First, they fascinate the fools. Then, they muzzle the intelligent."
I didn't like the Shamet trade because I liked a few guys in the draft and like guys on rookie contracts, but came around on understanding it, given our will to compete now (even though I want to also prepare for the future). I thought he'd shoot better but also know with a new team, etc, it could take time, and that players go through streaks....even Cam Johnson and Booker below 35% from 3 last year, and doing better this year. Cam was 20% from 3 the 4 games before this one after a hot streak (6-24) so we just have to withstand it. I just hope Shamet gets hot more often. He often gets so few shots that it's probably hard to get going. Cam is obviously typically our #1 option off the bench for good reason. It's nice to see Cam start though I fear he gets fewer shots when playing with Booker, Paul and Ayton and likely the 4th option instead of the 1st off the bench, but I do like the starting unit better with him it, even though I trust Monty and understand some reasons he may want Jae in their for leadership, toughness, being vocal, more firepower off the bench, etc.
When asked how Fascism starts, Bertrand Russell once said: "First, they fascinate the fools. Then, they muzzle the intelligent."
SkyBill40 wrote:Who is our PGOTF? Who the hell knows?
I think it's pretty clear it won't be Payne or Payton as neither of them have the impact of Paul by any stretch of the imagination.
Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk
Didn't you notice the green font?CP3 is not slowing down.
It is weird that people keep asking who is gonna be our PG in the future...what about that guy named Paul who is Top 5 in MVP race this season?
Obviously you are mostly referring to me, but I was talking 2 or 3 to 10 years out with this core. I don't think he will play until he is in his 40s. No one does really. I mean never say never. I've always said I think he can continue at a high level next year. The year after that maybe, but I imagine a decline comes around 38, like with Nash.
PGoTF is who we would be grooming now for long term, not who will play next year or maybe the year after.
Everything can change pretty fast for every team and for every player in the NBA...young or old.
I prefer to evaluate year by year. I am not thinking about who can be on the roster in three years from now...doesn't make sense to me.
Saberestar wrote:Didn't you notice the green font?CP3 is not slowing down.
It is weird that people keep asking who is gonna be our PG in the future...what about that guy named Paul who is Top 5 in MVP race this season?
Obviously you are mostly referring to me, but I was talking 2 or 3 to 10 years out with this core. I don't think he will play until he is in his 40s. No one does really. I mean never say never. I've always said I think he can continue at a high level next year. The year after that maybe, but I imagine a decline comes around 38, like with Nash.
PGoTF is who we would be grooming now for long term, not who will play next year or maybe the year after.
Everything can change pretty fast for every team and for every player in the NBA...young or old.
I prefer to evaluate year by year. I am not thinking about who can be on the roster in three years from now...doesn't make sense to me.
I know you are not thinking about that but many are. It's not a priority for awhile and I've thrown ideas out there for when the time comes but better to focus on the here and now considering how good we are.
When asked how Fascism starts, Bertrand Russell once said: "First, they fascinate the fools. Then, they muzzle the intelligent."
dremill24 wrote: You cited links and then interpreted them incorrectly, sorry. He may be able to be taken into a trade exception but these deals where you trade him for a $9 mil salary cannot be done, so roll your eyes all you want, doesn't change that.
Also not sure where the attitude about me not wanting to trade anyone cones from. I post maybe once a week and have never said that. The "we have the best record therefore we do not have any room to improve" stance is foolish to me, so try again.
so roll your eyes all you want, doesn't change that.
Thank you! I will as long as you feel the need to try and chastize me for my opinion on a trade discussion board because my perspective differs from yours regarding my interest in trading Shamet. As for the trades being illegal, I'll concede that you're partially right, In that they're incomplete. I rushed them whilst multitasking half asleep and I admitted to my error in not completing them fully, causing them to be deemed illegal as you pointed out. However, the trades I proposed need at worst a minimal salary inclusion of either Nader or Payton or Smith depending on the salary to meet the criteria for 175% of his average (6.5 million) or 6.6 million we're allowed to take back for his outgoing salary alone. So apologies, and just let me quickly correct the minor details as needed:
Also not sure where the attitude about me not wanting to trade anyone cones from. I post maybe once a week and have never said that.
"Stop trying to trade Shamet." Is this not you? and how you began your response. Furthermore, your perspective has been fairly clear from our prior interaction, in that you think our bench depth is the best in the league based on the stats and on our record, Which I asked you to share?? basically inferring that a change to the roster isn't needed. As for Shamet,you know that he's been terrible, He's had what 47 games now and hasn't been able to even remotely find his shot/production yet. His under performance hinders our bench potency and depth. Look at his career stats https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/shamela01.html#playoffs-series and it's clear that he's struggled like this throughout his three years in 5 series of the playoffs ( 39% FG 35% 3pt). Hence why we are his 4th team in three years since being drafted.Is this kind of production/ struggling going to cut it for a contending team trying to win a championship?? He represents an under performing weakness in our roster. Yet you plainly state that you want me to stop trying to trade Shamet. How is that not contradictory to your saying your not adverse to trades or potential roster upgrades?
Signing him to such an unnecessary contract ( double his market value and bidding against ourselves before even sampling his effectiveness in our scheme is pure negligence that's unnecessarily tying up our cap. trading him for an expiring is an upgrade in that it frees up potential cap space next season to more readily accommodate Johnsons' and Aytons' extensions as well as swapping in another viable option that can actually contribute when needed. It's a clear upgrade for our bench through addition by subtraction! If it's genuine what you're saying that you don't have issues with upgrading our roster regardless of record, Then you shouldn't really have any issues with the premise of trading Shamet since he's severely under performing in his role. Of course due to my half asleep, rushed, incomplete trades that I conceded your perspective on being illegal because they weren't complete. And I apologized respectfully, and thusly sought to correct them. I honestly wouldn't have taken issue and responded with an eye roll had you just said that my trades we're illegal citing reason rather than barking out a formal directive in dictatorial and somewhat condescending context for me to stop. It's really not that difficult to simply reply with I disagree with the premise of trading Shamet because............................ Or just saying your trades are incorrect based on salary requirements/incomplete criteria. Civility begets civility, I'll happily show anyone on here the same level of respect that they show me. regardless of opposing perspectives. Having said that, I will of course continue my interest in upgrading from Shamet, etc. until he and our under performing bench sans Johnson and Mcgee, and to a lesser extent recently Biyombo show otherwise. Luckily they have this stretch of games to show me how wrong I may be in assessing their values. Also, let's see how much longer it takes Shamet to get things on track, and reassess whose perspective ends up being more accurate.
Please show me one time that I have said we have the best bench in the league. Please show me one time I have said that Shamet has been good for this team. Show me one time I said trading for him and/or extending him was a good idea. My comment was based solely on the legality of the proposals, and maybe Im wrong there, but you're now adding a large amount of extra stuff about the on-court merits of trading him or making any trade at all and your claims on my position there are false. When you say my perspective on Shamet or the bench or the 'need for any trade' is clear based on previous interactions, you are confusing me with someone else.
You're right and I was absolutely wrong that it was you. It was a previously contentious dialogue with Bwoolf. I sincerely apologize for confusing you with him from a previous conversation. My claims on your position were as stated false. And you're comment on the legality of my trade proposals was accurate in that I submitted them incorrectly and in haste. A good lesson to be learned in double checking your work before submitting it. That is on me completely.
Having said that and apologizing accordingly, Trading Shamet ( IF it comes to that) can be done by having a team absorb him into their trade exception. Also ( when done correctly) He can be traded with minimally attached salary to reach the required 175% of the averaged 6.5 million. IF we are sending out his contract alone in trade, we can only take back up to ( I believe 6.4- 6.6 million) in returning salary. Now do the suns prefer to wait out his slump or move on and free up salary for a more legitimate impact player off the bench? We'll find out soon enough.
dremill24 wrote:Stop trying to trade Shamet. None of your deals are legal. There's a reason PPP players never get traded, the math just doesn't work unless there's a team with significant cap space involved
Whatever..................... You mean like the teams with cap space or trade exceptions mentioned in my post with cited links....lol. check the links for more clarity on the situation. Look, we get it! You don't want to trade anyone. And that's your perspective of course. But he CAN ABSOLUTELY be traded into another team's exception. And he can be traded for an equivalent expiring salary. Or a cheaper salary coming back from a team with salary space. We could easily trade him to New Orleans for Sato. And they'd likely do it for a minimal draft asset as Satos' also in a career slump.
Brooklyn Gms( trade board) already offered to take him into their exception for a 2nd. And Dallas fans, etc offered to absorb him into their exceptions for a 1st with moderate protection. But feel free to disagree if you like.
The only reason Shamet wouldn't get traded is if we Cater to Williams necessity to carry players he's familiar with. Even if they're consistently underperforming.
To me, the reason why we wouldn't trade Shamet has nothing to do with trying to make Monty happy. Jones has no reason to do that especially when we're already a contender and last time I checked, Monty isn't unhappy and his contract doesn't run out for another couple of years. We wouldn't trade him because we're committed to Shamet and given his PPP contract, you're going to get a downgrade just to dump him. Why would New Orleans give us an expiring contract for a guy who is playing some of his worst basketball in his career AND is in line to get a significant pay bump next season? There's just no way a team would give us something of equal value after we're clearly trying NOT to lie in the bed we just made.
As I mentioned, the reason we wouldn't trade him is because we're committed to Shamet and I can't think of other available players out there who has the upside Shamet has to be damn good SG off the bench for us. If Shamet can find his rhythm, he is a good back up for Book. cI mean, on paper, do we agree he's exactly what we need off the bench? He's just not performing to the level we're expecting but it isn't like he's totally the wrong kind of player (ie can't handle the ball, can't shoot, low IQ) right? And let's keep in mind, even though he hasn't been the sharp shooter we expected him to be, he's STILL spacing the floor for us and you can see the effect his has on opposing team defenses. Defenders still jumping out and going over screens just to get a hand in his face. Defenders are still trying their best to stick to him as he's zigzagging through multiple screens. He's creating real spacing and he's creating the effect of a sharpshooter, just without the production. Don't get me wrong, I think the contract we gave him was a mistake and I haven't been happy with Shamet's play but I see why we brought him in and what he can do for us.
Getting the right player is the hard part and to me, he is the right player but he's not playing to the standard we expected. It's not like we're expecting him he'd turn into Eric Gordon (who a lot of people here would love to bring in) but he could be a low rent Eric Gordon and for half the price.
Why would New Orleans give us an expiring contract for a guy who is playing some of his worst basketball in his career AND is in line to get a significant pay bump next season?
Because New Orleans is terrible currently from three, Sato is having an equally bad slump for them, Shamet at least has upside ......right? they're not worried about Shamets' 9 million next season either because unlike us, they're not in a tight salary situation with close to 22 million in cap space next season. It's basically a bad player for a bad player swap AND they get a draft asset for an expiring asset who they likely weren't intending to resign anyways. ( the Sato proposal was actually originally suggested by Pels fans by the way). Although they preferred to just absorb him into their exception for a 1st if possible. If Shamet can even remotely recoup some shooting value next season AND they get a draft asset out of it too for their trade exception or an expiring, that's a win for them.
To me, the reason why we wouldn't trade Shamet has nothing to do with trying to make Monty happy. Jones has no reason to do that especially when we're already a contender and last time I checked, Monty isn't unhappy and his contract doesn't run out for another couple of years.
Respectfully disagree. I stated that he has to carry players that he's familiar with. How is that not true? Players who were coached by Monty as an assistant for Philly in the 2018-2019 season: - Dario Saric. - Landry Shamet. Players coached under Monty during his OKC tenure: - Cameron Payne. Players coached by Monty Williams During his New Orleans tenure( 2010-2011): - Chris Paul. (All of Randy Ayers, Brian Gates, and Jarrett Jack who are currently on the suns coaching staff were assistants or played under Williams that year).
So that's 4 players, and 3 assistant coaches. Coincidence again?? The pattern is that he needs to be surrounded by players/ former players that he's familiar with and that gives him comfort, But whatever to each their own. It only becomes a problem when you have players that have a history of struggles/ inconsistencies that you're unwilling to move off from due to past history/ familiarity issues. We have a very limited window here with Paul! Championship teams win by fully optimizing their roster to maintain dominance and ensure they have a cushion to counter potential injuries/fatigue and provide legitimate depth to carry them all the way to a championship. Yes, we currently have the best record in the NBA. But If we're being honest, How much have players like Shamet, Saric, Payne contributed to that? I get that Nader and to a lesser extent Payton were Paul choices, But what have they contributed to our current success either?? Our success is/has been absolutely predicated upon our starters having played heavy minutes throughout the season. Cam Johnsons' incredible ascension, And for a brief duration during Covid protocols in which Jalen Smith and Javale Mcgee have both played out of their minds. Aside from those players carrying our bench, Our bench has been woefully mediocre.
He's creating real spacing and he's creating the effect of a sharpshooter, just without the production.
That may work reasonably well in the regular season whilst teams are trying to figure things out/ gel together. But that's not at all gonna fly in the playoffs when you'll be playing multiple games against good teams that will specifically scout your team and target your rosters' weaknesses. We need our bench to be fully optimized and productive, Otherwise we simply run the risk of burning out/ exhausting our key starters before we ever even begin the playoffs as they'll have to continue covering (playing excessively heavy minutes) for our benchs' unaddressed weaknesses/struggles. Is that a recipe for championship success? I could care less about eventual upside. As currently we need actual production/impact. Not wishful thinking of what might be. Regardless, there were plenty of available cheap or cheaper options that were available that we could've gone with. We chose Shamet because Monty is familiar with him from his 76'ers days.
Let's be honest Ghost, if he was sucking on another team right now, I'd bet you'd want to find a way to dump our crap assets to get him because you would see his fit and you'd want him to rehabilitate his shot and be that 3PT sniper for us.
If Shamet was on another team sucking, it'd mean that we still had Carter whose shooting 36% from three for his career. And on top of that would be a 3.9 million expiring next season, and much easier to move than Shamet. We'd also have kept our pick and I dunno...... Maybe chosen one of: Day'ron Sharpe, Herbert Jones, Ayo Dosunma, Jared Butler, Kessler Edwards, BJ Boston, or Aaron Wiggins. And we could've kept Smith for greater control in a trade! Do you not think a trade with Smith (restricted) and Dosunma plus a 1st could get a deal done for a Gordon or something comparable. And all these prospects are playing better than Shamet currently too this season. We have crap assets because we made bad decisions, plain and simple. Sitting on Saric when I suggested trading him at peak value shortly after our bubble run. Now he's 9 million in dead salary, Overpaying Shamet by double his market value, and bidding against ourselves to sign him before ever seeing him play in our system, Declining Smiths' option after sitting on him for at least a year when we should've looked to move him shortly after the Paul trade when we decided to not play him. Cheaping out in free agency!!! And which players that I have recently mentioned are playing worse than Shamet currently, or going to make even close to 10 million over the next couple of seasons? None of the players I've suggested are bad or sucking on their teams. They have legitimate upside and don't cost 10 million like Shamet will.
He's just not performing to the level we're expecting but it isn't like he's totally the wrong kind of player (ie can't handle the ball, can't shoot, low IQ) right?
I love Shamets' skillset! And even though I wasn't overtly in favor of the trade because I would've preferred targeting a potential PGOTF for Paul to mentor, I did try to convince myself that he could be a bargain version of Kennard for us! But instead he's been the SG version of Ryan Anderson (also overpayed for contributing almost nothing) and both with one specific skill that they were signed for- SHOOTING which neither has shown capable of doing in their role.
Getting the right player is the hard part and to me, he is the right player but he's not playing to the standard we expected. It's not like we're expecting him he'd turn into Eric Gordon (who a lot of people here would love to bring in) but he could be a low rent Eric Gordon and for half the price.
I don't know that he could even be a low rent Eric Gordon in that Gordon is much more versatile than Shamet, with more range, and good ISO scoring. Unless you're referring to Gordons' down year in 2019 in which he shot 36%FG and 31% from three.
Ghost of Kleine wrote:Respectfully disagree. I stated that he has to carry players that he's familiar with. How is that not true? Players who were coached by Monty as an assistant for Philly in the 2018-2019 season: - Dario Saric. - Landry Shamet. Players coached under Monty during his OKC tenure: - Cameron Payne. Players coached by Monty Williams During his New Orleans tenure( 2010-2011): - Chris Paul. (All of Randy Ayers, Brian Gates, and Jarrett Jack who are currently on the suns coaching staff were assistants or played under Williams that year).
So that's 4 players, and 3 assistant coaches. Coincidence again?? The pattern is that he needs to be surrounded by players/ former players that he's familiar with and that gives him comfort, But whatever to each their own. It only becomes a problem when you have players that have a history of struggles/ inconsistencies that you're unwilling to move off from due to past history/ familiarity issues. We have a very limited window here with Paul! Championship teams win by fully optimizing their roster to maintain dominance and ensure they have a cushion to counter potential injuries/fatigue and provide legitimate depth to carry them all the way to a championship. Yes, we currently have the best record in the NBA. But If we're being honest, How much have players like Shamet, Saric, Payne contributed to that? I get that Nader and to a lesser extent Payton were Paul choices, But what have they contributed to our current success either?? Our success is/has been absolutely predicated upon our starters having played heavy minutes throughout the season. Cam Johnsons' incredible ascension, And for a brief duration during Covid protocols in which Jalen Smith and Javale Mcgee have both played out of their minds. Aside from those players carrying our bench, Our bench has been woefully mediocre.
Every coach brings in guys they know and have worked with if they are able to. Dan D'Antoni was on Mike's coaching staff for his whole NBA coaching career until he got a college head coaching offer. Is he the best assistant coach we could've hired? Probably not but Mike knows him, knows how to work with him and they have plenty of experience together.
Any coach with any sort of coaching gravitas and experience will have some pull in terms of bringing in guys they are familiar with. None of this is surprising or a coincidence. Every coach does it. Also, when you've been in the coaching ranks long enough and if you've been a player for a while, you're going to have come across each other in some capacity. To say that you've found the connection and that it isn't a coincidence doesn't mean there's some sort of conspiracy to only bring in guys you know and have some weird obsession with. I mean Monty coached Eric Gordon for two seasons and he was an assistant coach in Philly when Covington was there. Was it wrong to have brought in CP3 because he had that connection with Monty? You literally bring up their connection when you come up with trades but when it comes to Shamet, ohhhh Monty is obsessed with him and we brought him in to make Monty happy, so that's a "bad" connection.
Monty is happy when you can bring in guys who is receptive to coaching, have talent and fits a role simple as that.
That may work reasonably well in the regular season whilst teams are trying to figure things out/ gel together. But that's not at all gonna fly in the playoffs when you'll be playing multiple games against good teams that will specifically scout your team and target your rosters' weaknesses. We need our bench to be fully optimized and productive, Otherwise we simply run the risk of burning out/ exhausting our key starters before we ever even begin the playoffs as they'll have to continue covering (playing excessively heavy minutes) for our benchs' unaddressed weaknesses/struggles. Is that a recipe for championship success? I could care less about eventual upside. As currently we need actual production/impact. Not wishful thinking of what might be. Regardless, there were plenty of available cheap or cheaper options that were available that we could've gone with. We chose Shamet because Monty is familiar with him from his 76'ers days.
You're completely devaluing Shamet as a player just because Monty was on the coaching staff when he played 54 games with the Sixers. I get it, Shamet hasn't been good this season and we're more than likely going to stick with him because of the commitment we've made to keeping him around. That doesn't mean he's the wrong player for the role and it doesn't mean we should actively dump him. We SHOULD add to the team, I've never been against improving the team but there isn't really a logical trade for Shamet that makes us better than if we can get Shamet to play his best basketball. I would have no issues moving on from Shamet if we can bring in a guy that is better than him.
And Ghost, you of all people should know the value of what a player could be rather than what they currently are. You're always hyping up some 2nd round or undrafted prospects that no one has heard of like they are actually going to make a difference on a contender before they've played a single NBA game. Yeah sometimes it can happen but most prospects were taken in the 2nd round or not drafted at all because they just don't have the talent.
If Shamet was on another team sucking, it'd mean that we still had Carter whose shooting 36% from three for his career. And on top of that would be a 3.9 million expiring next season, and much easier to move than Shamet. We'd also have kept our pick and I dunno...... Maybe chosen one of: Day'ron Sharpe, Herbert Jones, Ayo Dosunma, Jared Butler, Kessler Edwards, BJ Boston, or Aaron Wiggins. And we could've kept Smith for greater control in a trade! Do you not think a trade with Smith (restricted) and Dosunma plus a 1st could get a deal done for a Gordon or something comparable. And all these prospects are playing better than Shamet currently too this season. We have crap assets because we made bad decisions, plain and simple. Sitting on Saric when I suggested trading him at peak value shortly after our bubble run. Now he's 9 million in dead salary, Overpaying Shamet by double his market value, and bidding against ourselves to sign him before ever seeing him play in our system, Declining Smiths' option after sitting on him for at least a year when we should've looked to move him shortly after the Paul trade when we decided to not play him. Cheaping out in free agency!!! And which players that I have recently mentioned are playing worse than Shamet currently, or going to make even close to 10 million over the next couple of seasons? None of the players I've suggested are bad or sucking on their teams. They have legitimate upside and don't cost 10 million like Shamet will.
Sorry Ghost but I just can't see Monty playing these guys. We're not playing Smith now and he's shown he can hang. Also, none of these guys have played a second of playoff basketball. The reason we moved on from Carter is because he wasn't playable in the playoffs or outside of garbage minutes in the regular season. We went out to get a player who is young enough to still have upside and already have playoff experience, for relatively cheap.
I love Shamets' skillset! And even though I wasn't overtly in favor of the trade because I would've preferred targeting a potential PGOTF for Paul to mentor, I did try to convince myself that he could be a bargain version of Kennard for us! But instead he's been the SG version of Ryan Anderson (also overpayed for contributing almost nothing) and both with one specific skill that they were signed for- SHOOTING which neither has shown capable of doing in their role.
I don't know that he could even be a low rent Eric Gordon in that Gordon is much more versatile than Shamet, with more range, and good ISO scoring. Unless you're referring to Gordons' down year in 2019 in which he shot 36%FG and 31% from three.
Targeting the PGOFT? As if it was just there waiting for us to approve the trade? Again, the Shamet trade was there for us, we gave up very little and he fit our need, our team and has the right character. I'm all for trading for the PGOFT but it's not like they are just sitting there waiting for us to call. Even the PGOFT prospects we actually drafted turned out to be complete duds. Kendall Marshall, Ellie Okobo, Tyler Ennis, Ty Jerome....it's not like we didn't try. What about Dragic, Bledsoe, Knight...we've tried and you could literally go a decade without finding that guy.
You want the PGOFT? Trade assets (Bridges, Ayton, Cam, Book) with real value to this team. Or tank for the next Ja
Ghost of Kleine wrote:Respectfully disagree. I stated that he has to carry players that he's familiar with. How is that not true? Players who were coached by Monty as an assistant for Philly in the 2018-2019 season: - Dario Saric. - Landry Shamet. Players coached under Monty during his OKC tenure: - Cameron Payne. Players coached by Monty Williams During his New Orleans tenure( 2010-2011): - Chris Paul. (All of Randy Ayers, Brian Gates, and Jarrett Jack who are currently on the suns coaching staff were assistants or played under Williams that year).
So that's 4 players, and 3 assistant coaches. Coincidence again?? The pattern is that he needs to be surrounded by players/ former players that he's familiar with and that gives him comfort, But whatever to each their own. It only becomes a problem when you have players that have a history of struggles/ inconsistencies that you're unwilling to move off from due to past history/ familiarity issues. We have a very limited window here with Paul! Championship teams win by fully optimizing their roster to maintain dominance and ensure they have a cushion to counter potential injuries/fatigue and provide legitimate depth to carry them all the way to a championship. Yes, we currently have the best record in the NBA. But If we're being honest, How much have players like Shamet, Saric, Payne contributed to that? I get that Nader and to a lesser extent Payton were Paul choices, But what have they contributed to our current success either?? Our success is/has been absolutely predicated upon our starters having played heavy minutes throughout the season. Cam Johnsons' incredible ascension, And for a brief duration during Covid protocols in which Jalen Smith and Javale Mcgee have both played out of their minds. Aside from those players carrying our bench, Our bench has been woefully mediocre.
Every coach brings in guys they know and have worked with if they are able to. Dan D'Antoni was on Mike's coaching staff for his whole NBA coaching career until he got a college head coaching offer. Is he the best assistant coach we could've hired? Probably not but Mike knows him, knows how to work with him and they have plenty of experience together.
Any coach with any sort of coaching gravitas and experience will have some pull in terms of bringing in guys they are familiar with. None of this is surprising or a coincidence. Every coach does it. Also, when you've been in the coaching ranks long enough and if you've been a player for a while, you're going to have come across each other in some capacity. To say that you've found the connection and that it isn't a coincidence doesn't mean there's some sort of conspiracy to only bring in guys you know and have some weird obsession with. I mean Monty coached Eric Gordon for two seasons and he was an assistant coach in Philly when Covington was there. Was it wrong to have brought in CP3 because he had that connection with Monty? You literally bring up their connection when you come up with trades but when it comes to Shamet, ohhhh Monty is obsessed with him and we brought him in to make Monty happy, so that's a "bad" connection.
Monty is happy when you can bring in guys who is receptive to coaching, have talent and fits a role simple as that. Fair point! I don't like everything about Monty as a coach. But I do love that he's a great human being, player friendly and has an element of zen to him. I just think he has his favorites, as evidenced by his oft inflexible rotations.
That may work reasonably well in the regular season whilst teams are trying to figure things out/ gel together. But that's not at all gonna fly in the playoffs when you'll be playing multiple games against good teams that will specifically scout your team and target your rosters' weaknesses. We need our bench to be fully optimized and productive, Otherwise we simply run the risk of burning out/ exhausting our key starters before we ever even begin the playoffs as they'll have to continue covering (playing excessively heavy minutes) for our benchs' unaddressed weaknesses/struggles. Is that a recipe for championship success? I could care less about eventual upside. As currently we need actual production/impact. Not wishful thinking of what might be. Regardless, there were plenty of available cheap or cheaper options that were available that we could've gone with. We chose Shamet because Monty is familiar with him from his 76'ers days.
You're completely devaluing Shamet as a player just because Monty was on the coaching staff when he played 54 games with the Sixers. I get it, Shamet hasn't been good this season and we're more than likely going to stick with him because of the commitment we've made to keeping him around. That doesn't mean he's the wrong player for the role and it doesn't mean we should actively dump him. We SHOULD add to the team, I've never been against improving the team but there isn't really a logical trade for Shamet that makes us better than if we can get Shamet to play his best basketball. I would have no issues moving on from Shamet if we can bring in a guy that is better than him. I don't want to or intend to devalue him honestly man! When we first did the trade I didn't like the framework of the deal personally. But tried to hype myself up on him having potential to potentially be a budget Kennard for us! ( look at my posts on him right after the trade. My issue with Shamet is in that we had a body of work to go off of that indicated a pattern of this type of struggles with him, which is why he's bounced around the league. I respect his pesky defensive effort. But we NEED HIM TO HIT HIS SHOTS! Especially at 10 million which caused us to decline Smith to offset the overpay. So to me, he represents us giving up two firsts (a lotto pick-Smith, and a late 1st)and Carter. But as to the rest of your reply, I guess we'll see how things play out! I really hope he gets on track, So we can be unstoppable. But more importantly afford our starters more rest! And Ghost, you of all people should know the value of what a player could be rather than what they currently are. You're always hyping up some 2nd round or undrafted prospects that no one has heard of like they are actually going to make a difference on a contender before they've played a single NBA game. Yeah sometimes it can happen but most prospects were taken in the 2nd round or not drafted at all because they just don't have the talent. But none of those players would be tying up anywhere close to the salary Shamet will. Causing us to have to make roster alterations due to cap implications, That's the difference. Also we have a 3 yr sample of what to expect from Shamet: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/shamela01.html#playoffs_per_game- 5 points/1.8 rebounds/ 1.1 assists on 39% FG and 35% 3pt. That's over 3 yrs of playoff samples. IS that enough to help us get back to the finals or to beat a team like the Bucks or Miami, or Nets? Is that worth 10 million? We were even nervous about it as evidenced by only guaranteeing his 1st to yrs of his contract, Because we anticipated it being a legitimate risk, But over payed for him anyways. At least with a draft prospect their on a cost controlled rookie scale contract. And can just as likely put up at least 5 points and 1.8 rebounds on 39%FG and 35%3pt shooting
If Shamet was on another team sucking, it'd mean that we still had Carter whose shooting 36% from three for his career. And on top of that would be a 3.9 million expiring next season, and much easier to move than Shamet. We'd also have kept our pick and I dunno...... Maybe chosen one of: Day'ron Sharpe, Herbert Jones, Ayo Dosunma, Jared Butler, Kessler Edwards, BJ Boston, or Aaron Wiggins. And we could've kept Smith for greater control in a trade! Do you not think a trade with Smith (restricted) and Dosunma plus a 1st could get a deal done for a Gordon or something comparable. And all these prospects are playing better than Shamet currently too this season. We have crap assets because we made bad decisions, plain and simple. Sitting on Saric when I suggested trading him at peak value shortly after our bubble run. Now he's 9 million in dead salary, Overpaying Shamet by double his market value, and bidding against ourselves to sign him before ever seeing him play in our system, Declining Smiths' option after sitting on him for at least a year when we should've looked to move him shortly after the Paul trade when we decided to not play him. Cheaping out in free agency!!! And which players that I have recently mentioned are playing worse than Shamet currently, or going to make even close to 10 million over the next couple of seasons? None of the players I've suggested are bad or sucking on their teams. They have legitimate upside and don't cost 10 million like Shamet will.
Sorry Ghost but I just can't see Monty playing these guys. We're not playing Smith now and he's shown he can hang. Also, none of these guys have played a second of playoff basketball. The reason we moved on from Carter is because he wasn't playable in the playoffs or outside of garbage minutes in the regular season. We went out to get a player who is young enough to still have upside and already have playoff experience, for relatively cheap. No, I get that and do agree that he likely wouldn't play them anyways. But we already know from Shamets' 3 yr sample (above link) that apparently playoff experience doesn't seem to guarantee value or production/impact. There's still plenty of low cost vet min options that could have been added, many for 2 million or less. That are actually performing well all season! And over 40% from three too.
I love Shamets' skill set! And even though I wasn't overtly in favor of the trade because I would've preferred targeting a potential PGOTF for Paul to mentor, I did try to convince myself that he could be a bargain version of Kennard for us! But instead he's been the SG version of Ryan Anderson (also over payed for contributing almost nothing) and both with one specific skill that they were signed for- SHOOTING which neither has shown capable of doing in their role.
I don't know that he could even be a low rent Eric Gordon in that Gordon is much more versatile than Shamet, with more range, and good ISO scoring. Unless you're referring to Gordons' down year in 2019 in which he shot 36%FG and 31% from three.
Targeting the PGOFT? As if it was just there waiting for us to approve the trade? Again, the Shamet trade was there for us, we gave up very little and he fit our need, our team and has the right character. I'm all for trading for the PGOFT but it's not like they are just sitting there waiting for us to call. Even the PGOFT prospects we actually drafted turned out to be complete duds. Kendall Marshall, Ellie Okobo, Tyler Ennis, Ty Jerome....it's not like we didn't try. What about Dragic, Bledsoe, Knight...we've tried and you could literally go a decade without finding that guy. Well the idea is at the very least, Paul could've mentored whatever young guard we might have targeted. Helping us at the very least develop a quality stopgap option if necessary. And by the way, Dosunma has been really good already for Chicago, Butler pushed us to the limit the other night WITH PAUL AND BOOKER! And Miles Mcbride has been dominating the G league. Also none of them making 30 million could only help us with our imminent core extensions huh? We're losing Paul in a couple years either way. So why not plan ahead a bit right?? ALSO, I will tell you now, I do think that DeAngelo Russell is the secret target for us to replace Paul in 23'. He meets all the subtle criteria Jones had shared. Check out his improved skill set and play making as well as his elite ball handling and ISO scoring ability. He's also an All star player and is Books' good friend. I'm just saying don't be surprised if that's the TOP SECRET plan of our front office.
and don't cost 10 million like Shamet will.
