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2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation

Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22

Where do you think we finish in the standings?

1
6
13%
2
10
22%
3
14
31%
4
6
13%
5
4
9%
6
3
7%
7
2
4%
8
0
No votes
9
0
No votes
10
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 45

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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#841 » by Ghost of Kleine » Sun May 22, 2022 6:28 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Barkley6 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
I kind of thought we'd bring back Holiday before the season started but most said they didn't think he was good enough to bring back. Then everyone wanted him in the playoffs. I think we could probably keep him for near the minimum though. He couldn't do better than 3rd string in Indy and finally they traded him for a late first and then he couldn't pass up 2nd string in WAS (Neto) and they gave him away for cash considerations.

So after 4 years in the league and not moving up past 3rd string I think his value and the view of his talent is low. Any team could have probably offered more than we did.

When did Monty and CP3 have a rift? I don't think it would be because of Holiday but maybe Monty was adamant playing Shamet a lot of minutes instead. If you are mentioning Payton I guess this was probably before the playoffs?


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OK, well that is pretty interesting given he said he heard it from several sources, but then again, he actually quotes Flex from Jersey and Skip Bayless as sources, so I am not sure I can take him seriously.

The Ayton stuff makes zero sense, other than the last game and day after, given the way things transpired. The stuff about wanting out "for months" makes no sense given everything we've heard up until now from Ayton and everyone else...and it would have hurt their chemistry.

The Paul stuff makes a little more sense given the way he played and what he was like in the press conferences. Should make for an interesting offseason.

I have no idea who would want Paul other than the Lakers, and Westbrook doesn't seem ideal. If he could shoot 3s, he would be fun to watch because of how hard he plays and he rarely misses games and leaves it all on the floor. But he's not a smart player.

But if Paul wanted out, just for gits and shiggles, I wonder what a Paul/Shamet/Saric/Craig or Payne to LAL, Westbrook to Houston, Wall, Kendrick Nunn and a future Lakers pick (26) to us would look like. Wall sucked last time he played, but he's expiring and we get out of the extra Shamet year and Paul year(s) or at least the $15 million owen.

So it's cost savings and wiggle room. A Kentucky backcourt partner with Book. I have no idea how it would work though.

Of course this is ONLY if Paul demands out and wants to go to LA (which is realistically the only place that would want him). And I'd rather have Wall than Westbrook. It's basically just getting rid of locker room friction, bad contracts and extra years for an expiring Wall and a decent backup guard in Nunn along with a pick.

Then we actually would have more money next summer to keep Johnson, look for PG, etc. I'd still like a try for Tyus Jones though.

It sound ludicrous because this rumor is probably bollocks and Paul was one of my favorite players and an MVP top 4-5 candidate until he got injured so he's obviously still elite when healthy (provided he was injured with his quad the last 5 games and that's why he played like he did).

The only other team I could see possibly wanting him is NY. He could do wonders for Barrett, Toppin and their pick this year.

If we could do Walker and Fournier it would possibly be another option (if Paul wants out of course). Fournier is fairly solid. Walker isn't good but he's ok and expires. Fournier has another year but it's only a few million more than Paul's unguaranteed money (what we'd have to pay Paul if we cut him next offseason).


LOL! It almost sounds like you're getting a bit of GOK fever man! :lol:
But all joking aside, I'm not sure I see Houston wanting Westbrick. But I do like the idea of getting creative to clear space for extensions. You know, D Rose and Noel both have team options! So I think I'd for my part do Paul for D Rose/ Noel/ Quickley/ pick. We could always just decline either team option then. But D Rose could fill in for Paul, Quickley for Payne (whom we trade), and Noel replaces Mcgee at backup 5 for us.

Or we could do Paul for Barrett/ Reddish, pick? :dontknow:
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#842 » by TeamTragic » Sun May 22, 2022 7:02 am

Who do you think we bail on this offseason?

1. Payne
2. Holiday
3. Crowder
4. Saric

That is my list unless they are getting packaged with Ayton before the trade deadline.
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#843 » by Ghost of Kleine » Sun May 22, 2022 7:13 am

TeamTragic wrote:Who do you think we bail on this offseason?

1. Payne
2. Holiday
3. Crowder
4. Saric

That is my list unless they are getting packaged with Ayton before the trade deadline.


Well, Saric has no value honestly and maybe even negative too. Holiday is a restricted free agent, And Jones traded for him so I'm sure we bring him back. Now going off of two things:
Jones mentioned preferring continuity, so it's likely Crowder stays too. But we are working out Iziah Brockington and Max Abmas, So all in all..................

1- Payne ( gets traded for draft pick- most likely a 2nd).
2- Holiday ( gets resigned on minimum deal).
3- Crowder ( stays for continuity).
4- Saric ( should get stretched now, but will stay till deadline to see if he can recoup some value and be traded by the deadline)??????
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#844 » by Desertfox » Sun May 22, 2022 8:13 am

TeamTragic wrote:Who do you think we bail on this offseason?

1. Payne
2. Holiday
3. Crowder
4. Saric

That is my list unless they are getting packaged with Ayton before the trade deadline.

I want to get rid of CP3 so that means keeping Payne and seeing how good he can be as a starter. Holiday stays as the backup. With CP3 gone, no need for Crowder, Saric has no trade value but can't hurt to see if he can play again. So keep everyone but Crowder.
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#845 » by Puff » Sun May 22, 2022 8:26 am

thamadkant wrote:Suns main need is playmaker off the bench that is better than Payne.

Mavericks have become a contender after getting Dinwiddie. Look at their record post getting him.


Payne needs to be upgraded and Suns should be fine.


I understand why they would like to upgrade Payne. However it is not going to be easy unless we acquire one via a trade containing either Ayton or Cam Johnson.

I think the thought of getting Tyus Jones as afree agent is a pipe dream. We will either get outbid or he will stay with the Grizzles. The owner has said that he will spend money to keep that team together.

If we could get last years Payne or this years, when CP3 was out, we could be fine. However I agree that if we can upgrade, just do it. I just do not who that will be.
      "Vogel has no spine. Booker and Durant do whatever they want on this team and just continue make stupid decisions iso-ball and basically doing whatever they feel like out there. We need a coach with balls."
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#846 » by Qwigglez » Sun May 22, 2022 8:34 am

Saric's contract definitely has trade value as it expires after this upcoming season. Any number of teams that might want to get rid of a longer term contract would happily take Saric to unload whoever they don't want. Sure, it's not going to be a star player, it's not going to be a player on a rookie contract, but it would be someone that isn't fitting their current team. Josh Hart, Zach Collins, Doug McDermott, Devon Graham, Kelly Olynyk, Evan Fournier, Alec Burks. I'd say those guys might be a on list of players that could get moved by next February for a team to shed some salary. I think there is no scenario where the Suns are actively looking to stretch a player in order to create more cap flexibility this year.
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#847 » by schnakenpopanz » Sun May 22, 2022 10:49 am

A good Front Office and player development department can do wonders.
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#848 » by RedIndian » Sun May 22, 2022 12:36 pm

I feel the only viable way to move forward is to match an Ayton offer. Sign and trades yield very poor value, and like it or not, Ayton is our most valuable asset post Booker. Moving him for pennies on the dollar would be a very bad move from an asset management perspective, and would move us very quickly from a contender to probably a treadmilling team.

Even from a basketball perspective, I do think we’re all wildly overreacting to a disappointing playoff performance. All things considered, this team has done exceptionally well over the last 2 years. A Finals run, a franchise record in the regular season and being a consistent top 5 offense and defense are nothing to scoff at.

The Mavs disaster only showed the holes that Jones has ignored and our over-reliance on an injury prone 37 year old.

This isn’t a Utah Jazz scenario where the core simply isn’t good enough to win a title. I think we absolutely need to resist the temptation to blow it up. Fix the holes, get a 3rd guy and see where that takes you. I have no desire to return to the lottery after being there for 10 years. Make no mistake, a sign and trade for Ayton with a mediocre return like Poeltl/ Vassell or Turner/ Duarter is a surefire ticket to the lottery in a year or two.

The best offseason plan I can come up with is something like this:

#1 – Match the 4 year/130 million Ayton max. Quit expecting Ayton to turn into something he’s not going to turn into. The reality is that Ayton has made improvements almost every year. Most NBA players also typically improve at stuff that they’re already good at. With Ayton, that’s his shot – he shot something like 65% on hooks, and 45% from 10-20 feet. Those are terrific numbers, and I’m willing to bet he can extend that range further. Quite confident that he’d hit 35% from 3 if he got 3 shots there. Like it or not, that has to be the natural progression for Ayton on a max deal. 15 shots a game, with the green light to shoot 2-3 three a game. That’s easily a 20/10 player on excellent efficiency. He’s not going to be an offensive hub or a guy who gets to the line, but having that sort of expectation is pointless. The future of this league is size and skill – it’s not just the 6’8 predator wings. So while we faced Doncic this year, we could face Kawhi + PG next year. But we could equally face Jokic, Embiiid, KAT, Mobley, Wembanyama, Holmgrem etc over the next 5-10 years. Building a balanced team is about having the versatility to match-up against different threats, and Ayton gives us that better than about 90% of the centers in the league. I don’t want to throw that away cheaply.

#2 – Try and move into the draft using Payne or Shamet. I don’t care if it’s in the 2nd round. Payne and Shamet are presently deadweight on middling / mediocre deals. They don’t have a ton of value, but I don’t think they have absolutely zero value. Payne’s deal is actually just 6 million next year, and 2 million guaranteed next year. That could theoretically net a 2nd rounder from someone like the Hawks, Cavs, Raptors, OKC – teams who could do with a bench guard. That saves us some money this year, and gives a shot at a cheap cost controlled guy over 4 years. 2nd year guys typically get that 4 year/6 million (2 + 2 deal). If you get the kind of value that the Pels got in the 2nd round in Herb Jones or Jose Alvarado, you’ve struck gold. You can’t sustainably build a successful team in the long-term if you’re not simultaneously developing cheap talent on the side. This draft has a number of good big guards in the 2nd round, and we’d do well to nab one of them. Maybe they don’t contribute straight away, but there’s a chance they’re ready to take a leap once Paul retires. Who knows. We absolutely need to start taking these sort of punts.

#3 – Use some combination of Crowder, Saric, Shamet, Craig + Cam Johnson / #2023 pick to get a 3rd scorer. This is the trickiest bit, and Jones has his work cut out. The idea of obtaining an all-NBA level guy is a fantasy. There isn’t a deal we could make for KD or Dame or even someone like Siakam unless we’re open to trading Ayton AND Bridges and possibly picks. That’s a complete blowup. Maybe the opportunity for that arises in the next 18 months, but I can’t see it happening this summer.
For the time being, we’re frankly operating in the 20-25 million dollar range, and our targets probably are in the following lot:

Jerami Grant
Malcolm Brogdon
Bogdan Bogdanovic
Harrison Barnes
John Collins
Terry Rozier
Norman Powell
Christian Wood
Kyle Kuzma
Jordan Clarkson

None of those targets are perfect, but some of them are worth pursuing. In my view, the most palatable and realistic is probably Brogdon. Pacers wish to give Haliburton the full-time reigns, and I think Cam Johnson would be a good get for them as a young wing to pair with Haliburton and Duarte. Some sort of deal with Saric or Crowder paired with Craig and Cam should net you Brogdon + Brisett. The deal isn’t perfect – Brogdon is injury prone, and has a large deal running through 2024-25, but the idea is intriguing. Brogdon, if fit, gives you genuine Chris Paul insurance, as well as shot creation, playmaking and some rim pressure.

#4 – Use the taxpayer MLE on a single guy who cracks the top 8 rotation. Don’t make the mistake of splitting the MLE on multiple guys for regular season depth. The playoffs have shown that only your top 8-9 guys matter. Your depth from 9-15 should be basically vet mins, 2-way guys or rookies. The tax-payer MLE is 6.14 million for a deal up to 4 years with 5% raises. That should get you a nice playoff rotation calibre player. Possible targets for me are Isaiah Hartenstein, Otto Porter, Gary Harris, Kyle Anderson, Schroder, Oladipo. I don’t think Tyus Jones can be had for this price.

#5 – for vet min, I think you bring back Biyombo and Ish Wainwright. The rest of this year’s guys can be cut.

Your playoff rotation could eventually look like this:

Ayton / Biyombo
Crowder / [Kyle Anderson/OPJ]
Bridges / Brisett
Booker / [Rookie]
Paul / Brogdon

A bench of Brogdon /Brisett/ Kyle Anderson / Biyombo plus a plucky rookie (say Trevor Keels or Jalen Williams) addresses a large number of this year’s weaknesses – more shot-creation, more rebounding and more playmaking.

Now all of this requires Sarver to cough up and pay the tax. If avoiding the tax is the only goal, then we should just blow it all up and forget about contending. There’s no way to build a contender with our present assets while staying below the tax.
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#849 » by bwgood77 » Sun May 22, 2022 1:46 pm

Spoiler:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Barkley6 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20&t=Ej2OxXPSuB2elCwrfhXipQ

Here is where the story came from.


OK, well that is pretty interesting given he said he heard it from several sources, but then again, he actually quotes Flex from Jersey and Skip Bayless as sources, so I am not sure I can take him seriously.

The Ayton stuff makes zero sense, other than the last game and day after, given the way things transpired. The stuff about wanting out "for months" makes no sense given everything we've heard up until now from Ayton and everyone else...and it would have hurt their chemistry.

The Paul stuff makes a little more sense given the way he played and what he was like in the press conferences. Should make for an interesting offseason.

I have no idea who would want Paul other than the Lakers, and Westbrook doesn't seem ideal. If he could shoot 3s, he would be fun to watch because of how hard he plays and he rarely misses games and leaves it all on the floor. But he's not a smart player.

But if Paul wanted out, just for gits and shiggles, I wonder what a Paul/Shamet/Saric/Craig or Payne to LAL, Westbrook to Houston, Wall, Kendrick Nunn and a future Lakers pick (26) to us would look like. Wall sucked last time he played, but he's expiring and we get out of the extra Shamet year and Paul year(s) or at least the $15 million owen.

So it's cost savings and wiggle room. A Kentucky backcourt partner with Book. I have no idea how it would work though.

Of course this is ONLY if Paul demands out and wants to go to LA (which is realistically the only place that would want him). And I'd rather have Wall than Westbrook. It's basically just getting rid of locker room friction, bad contracts and extra years for an expiring Wall and a decent backup guard in Nunn along with a pick.

Then we actually would have more money next summer to keep Johnson, look for PG, etc. I'd still like a try for Tyus Jones though.

It sound ludicrous because this rumor is probably bollocks and Paul was one of my favorite players and an MVP top 4-5 candidate until he got injured so he's obviously still elite when healthy (provided he was injured with his quad the last 5 games and that's why he played like he did).

The only other team I could see possibly wanting him is NY. He could do wonders for Barrett, Toppin and their pick this year.

If we could do Walker and Fournier it would possibly be another option (if Paul wants out of course). Fournier is fairly solid. Walker isn't good but he's ok and expires. Fournier has another year but it's only a few million more than Paul's unguaranteed money (what we'd have to pay Paul if we cut him next offseason).


LOL! It almost sounds like you're getting a bit of GOK fever man! :lol:
But all joking aside, I'm not sure I see Houston wanting Westbrick. But I do like the idea of getting creative to clear space for extensions. You know, D Rose and Noel both have team options! So I think I'd for my part do Paul for D Rose/ Noel/ Quickley/ pick. We could always just decline either team option then. But D Rose could fill in for Paul, Quickley for Payne (whom we trade), and Noel replaces Mcgee at backup 5 for us.

Or we could do Paul for Barrett/ Reddish, pick? :dontknow:

That's a better offer (they obviously wouldn't do the Barrett/Reddish one) but I don't think we'd want Rose given the character requirement. Quickley is ok, and I like Noel. I think Fournier is a better piece than any but avoiding that future year is big.

I expect we keep Paul though unless the relationship is untenable. If they didn't want to trade for bad contracts I suppose they could stretch him (I am guessing you only have to stretch guaranteed money). I don't know if it would be over 3 years or 5 given 2nd year is the unguaranteed $15 million (you are supposed to add 2 years to year(s) you are stretching. If over 5, he'd cost $9 million a year for a while...maybe not too bad with cap going up...but not ideal to have on books that long. If over 3 $15 million which helps a lot this year but in 3 years hurts.

I imagine this is all fixed and he is back (if there is a problem in the first place) though he has left everywhere he has been because players tire of playing with him (though it really doesn't seem like any Suns have). You don't hear of Paul rifts with coaches and to have one with Monty who he has been close to for years would seem very odd.

And of course the secondary source is Bickley.

And then on top of that, arguments and stuff which happen in any profession, get blown out of proportion when people are talking the NBA....with Paul, Ayton, etc. If we deal Ayton it's not going to be because of some Monty emotional in game argument or some made up stuff about him saying he wanted out, but simply because we never planned on keeping him long term, which seems like it could be true. I think they have always wanted to weigh their options and didn't want to give the 5 year max that could escalate has 8% raises, etc, and wanted to either get him cheaper or if not, maybe trade him for someone cheaper to avoid tax, save money at position since we have well over half our cap tied up in our guards.
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#850 » by bwgood77 » Sun May 22, 2022 1:50 pm

TeamTragic wrote:Who do you think we bail on this offseason?

1. Payne
2. Holiday
3. Crowder
4. Saric

That is my list unless they are getting packaged with Ayton before the trade deadline.


Holiday for sure - unless we can keep for minimum
Payne maybe - unless we can get decent trade
Saric maybe - seems like a bit of a no brainer but he is a Monty favorite andwhen he was good it helped Payne as well since he stretches floor and Payne drives, but this is relying on both being better than last time we saw them

I would be pretty surprised if we got rid of Crowder
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#851 » by bwgood77 » Sun May 22, 2022 1:54 pm

Qwigglez wrote:Saric's contract definitely has trade value as it expires after this upcoming season. Any number of teams that might want to get rid of a longer term contract would happily take Saric to unload whoever they don't want. Sure, it's not going to be a star player, it's not going to be a player on a rookie contract, but it would be someone that isn't fitting their current team. Josh Hart, Zach Collins, Doug McDermott, Devon Graham, Kelly Olynyk, Evan Fournier, Alec Burks. I'd say those guys might be a on list of players that could get moved by next February for a team to shed some salary. I think there is no scenario where the Suns are actively looking to stretch a player in order to create more cap flexibility this year.


So you think they'd take on more future salary of the type of player a team wants to get rid of? If anything I think we would not want more long term salary. I think if we are fine paying $30 million for Saric (his salary plus tax on keeping him) we keep him rather than trade for more salary you have to add tax on. Stretching just saves a lot of money because it reduces cap/tax hit. Taking a player back does nothing. The only other option is trading to a team who has cap space and would absorb but that would probably cost a pick.
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#852 » by bwgood77 » Sun May 22, 2022 2:23 pm

RedIndian wrote:I feel the only viable way to move forward is to match an Ayton offer. Sign and trades yield very poor value, and like it or not, Ayton is our most valuable asset post Booker. Moving him for pennies on the dollar would be a very bad move from an asset management perspective, and would move us very quickly from a contender to probably a treadmilling team.

Even from a basketball perspective, I do think we’re all wildly overreacting to a disappointing playoff performance. All things considered, this team has done exceptionally well over the last 2 years. A Finals run, a franchise record in the regular season and being a consistent top 5 offense and defense are nothing to scoff at.

The Mavs disaster only showed the holes that Jones has ignored and our over-reliance on an injury prone 37 year old.

This isn’t a Utah Jazz scenario where the core simply isn’t good enough to win a title. I think we absolutely need to resist the temptation to blow it up. Fix the holes, get a 3rd guy and see where that takes you. I have no desire to return to the lottery after being there for 10 years. Make no mistake, a sign and trade for Ayton with a mediocre return like Poeltl/ Vassell or Turner/ Duarter is a surefire ticket to the lottery in a year or two.

The best offseason plan I can come up with is something like this:

#1 – Match the 4 year/130 million Ayton max. Quit expecting Ayton to turn into something he’s not going to turn into. The reality is that Ayton has made improvements almost every year. Most NBA players also typically improve at stuff that they’re already good at. With Ayton, that’s his shot – he shot something like 65% on hooks, and 45% from 10-20 feet. Those are terrific numbers, and I’m willing to bet he can extend that range further. Quite confident that he’d hit 35% from 3 if he got 3 shots there. Like it or not, that has to be the natural progression for Ayton on a max deal. 15 shots a game, with the green light to shoot 2-3 three a game. That’s easily a 20/10 player on excellent efficiency. He’s not going to be an offensive hub or a guy who gets to the line, but having that sort of expectation is pointless. The future of this league is size and skill – it’s not just the 6’8 predator wings. So while we faced Doncic this year, we could face Kawhi + PG next year. But we could equally face Jokic, Embiiid, KAT, Mobley, Wembanyama, Holmgrem etc over the next 5-10 years. Building a balanced team is about having the versatility to match-up against different threats, and Ayton gives us that better than about 90% of the centers in the league. I don’t want to throw that away cheaply.


Spoiler:
RedIndian wrote:#2 – Try and move into the draft using Payne or Shamet. I don’t care if it’s in the 2nd round. Payne and Shamet are presently deadweight on middling / mediocre deals. They don’t have a ton of value, but I don’t think they have absolutely zero value. Payne’s deal is actually just 6 million next year, and 2 million guaranteed next year. That could theoretically net a 2nd rounder from someone like the Hawks, Cavs, Raptors, OKC – teams who could do with a bench guard. That saves us some money this year, and gives a shot at a cheap cost controlled guy over 4 years. 2nd year guys typically get that 4 year/6 million (2 + 2 deal). If you get the kind of value that the Pels got in the 2nd round in Herb Jones or Jose Alvarado, you’ve struck gold. You can’t sustainably build a successful team in the long-term if you’re not simultaneously developing cheap talent on the side. This draft has a number of good big guards in the 2nd round, and we’d do well to nab one of them. Maybe they don’t contribute straight away, but there’s a chance they’re ready to take a leap once Paul retires. Who knows. We absolutely need to start taking these sort of punts.

#3 – Use some combination of Crowder, Saric, Shamet, Craig + Cam Johnson / #2023 pick to get a 3rd scorer. This is the trickiest bit, and Jones has his work cut out. The idea of obtaining an all-NBA level guy is a fantasy. There isn’t a deal we could make for KD or Dame or even someone like Siakam unless we’re open to trading Ayton AND Bridges and possibly picks. That’s a complete blowup. Maybe the opportunity for that arises in the next 18 months, but I can’t see it happening this summer.
For the time being, we’re frankly operating in the 20-25 million dollar range, and our targets probably are in the following lot:

Jerami Grant
Malcolm Brogdon
Bogdan Bogdanovic
Harrison Barnes
John Collins
Terry Rozier
Norman Powell
Christian Wood
Kyle Kuzma
Jordan Clarkson

None of those targets are perfect, but some of them are worth pursuing. In my view, the most palatable and realistic is probably Brogdon. Pacers wish to give Haliburton the full-time reigns, and I think Cam Johnson would be a good get for them as a young wing to pair with Haliburton and Duarte. Some sort of deal with Saric or Crowder paired with Craig and Cam should net you Brogdon + Brisett. The deal isn’t perfect – Brogdon is injury prone, and has a large deal running through 2024-25, but the idea is intriguing. Brogdon, if fit, gives you genuine Chris Paul insurance, as well as shot creation, playmaking and some rim pressure.

#4 – Use the taxpayer MLE on a single guy who cracks the top 8 rotation. Don’t make the mistake of splitting the MLE on multiple guys for regular season depth. The playoffs have shown that only your top 8-9 guys matter. Your depth from 9-15 should be basically vet mins, 2-way guys or rookies. The tax-payer MLE is 6.14 million for a deal up to 4 years with 5% raises. That should get you a nice playoff rotation calibre player. Possible targets for me are Isaiah Hartenstein, Otto Porter, Gary Harris, Kyle Anderson, Schroder, Oladipo. I don’t think Tyus Jones can be had for this price.

#5 – for vet min, I think you bring back Biyombo and Ish Wainwright. The rest of this year’s guys can be cut.

Your playoff rotation could eventually look like this:

Ayton / Biyombo
Crowder / [Kyle Anderson/OPJ]
Bridges / Brisett
Booker / [Rookie]
Paul / Brogdon

A bench of Brogdon /Brisett/ Kyle Anderson / Biyombo plus a plucky rookie (say Trevor Keels or Jalen Williams) addresses a large number of this year’s weaknesses – more shot-creation, more rebounding and more playmaking.

Now all of this requires Sarver to cough up and pay the tax. If avoiding the tax is the only goal, then we should just blow it all up and forget about contending. There’s no way to build a contender with our present assets while staying below the tax.


Great post. The first paragraph is a simple spot on way of putting things, but the next few also provide very solid points. I hid some of it to try and avoid too much of a long post in a response, but good points throughout.

Ayton shot over 39% from 3 this year. Now that is on very limited volume but he can shoot it. And yes, we know he's practiced it. Also just get him a few more shots a game.

I think he will also develop his ball handling skills. For those who watch every minute of every Suns game, you've seen him drive from the free throw line and dunk it. Not often, but he's done it. He has it in him. I think he'd do more of it if the standard play wasn't a hand off to Book and just screening for those guys, despite him being more efficient from just about everywhere on the floor.

I really like your list, though some are too expensive so I don't see an avenue of geting them without trading a bunch of guys people don't likely want. Though Indy may move on from Brogdon. They have Haliburton, Hield, Smith and Turner...and some other guys.

I am curious what TJ Warren's value will be. Not that I think there is any chance we'd go for him but imagine him as a 6th man or even starting if he could still shoot that 40%+ 3. He was scoring 40 or 50 in the bubble. But I know, he can't stay healthy, maybe wanted out, and we got rid of a 2nd, so no chance.

But the guy can score and doesn't hesitate and has improved as a defender like Book.

But back to your list. I like every guy..they are just too expensive. I think it would require Crowder for sure if they want a tough PF (though I think we kind of need him-though not more than another ball handler).

I wish we could find hidden gems..undrafted FVVs or Max Struss type guys like we did with Payne.

I was alway surprised we gave Saric and Crowder 3 years knowing the Ayton next contract would be up, and then was shocked with Shamet...not so much that he got an extension (though I think that was stupid before seeing him play and his RFA value on market) but I thought he'd make like $4-$5 million a year.
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#853 » by Ghost of Kleine » Sun May 22, 2022 4:47 pm

schnakenpopanz wrote:A good Front Office and player development department can do wonders.
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Kind of spotlights not overlooking the draft and undrafted pools to sustainably upgrade tour roster at the lowest possible financial incursion. IF you're willing to invest in that area at least somewhat?? :nod:
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#854 » by sunskerr » Sun May 22, 2022 4:50 pm

Aytons last 3 years shooting the 3

3/13
4/20
7/20

Theres not enough sample size to determine if hes improved at all with his 3 point shooting. I do like the idea of him shooting 2-3 per game after a summer of working on it.

As for ball handling, I wouldn't hold my breath over it. Guy just looks lost every time hes had to do anything with the ball other than layups or hooks as a finisher. Im not expecting 20/10 from him because I think its a **** idea to really force the offense around a guy who doesn't create his own offense. We should just go after another creator.

I also don't really advocate blowing it up. I don't see a trade scenario out there for Ayton that makes us better, and Paul probably has 0 takers as well. In my mind, trading only Ayton would qualify as a retool, but again I see nothing out there that definitely makes us better.
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#855 » by sunsbg » Sun May 22, 2022 6:33 pm

sunskerr wrote:Aytons last 3 years shooting the 3

3/13
4/20
7/20

Theres not enough sample size to determine if hes improved at all with his 3 point shooting. I do like the idea of him shooting 2-3 per game after a summer of working on it.

As for ball handling, I wouldn't hold my breath over it. Guy just looks lost every time hes had to do anything with the ball other than layups or hooks as a finisher. Im not expecting 20/10 from him because I think its a **** idea to really force the offense around a guy who doesn't create his own offense. We should just go after another creator.

I also don't really advocate blowing it up. I don't see a trade scenario out there for Ayton that makes us better, and Paul probably has 0 takers as well. In my mind, trading only Ayton would qualify as a retool, but again I see nothing out there that definitely makes us better.


So you have missed all his automatic midrange shots. The guy is easily 20/10 player taking 15FGA without any drives to the basket, which would be a bonus and make him 25ppg scorer. Looking at the poll I almost hope DA is traded and will be glad to see those who voted trade DA no matter what enjoy the likes of Turner and Brogdon in Suns uniforms.
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#856 » by bwgood77 » Sun May 22, 2022 6:53 pm

sunsbg wrote:
sunskerr wrote:Aytons last 3 years shooting the 3

3/13
4/20
7/20

Theres not enough sample size to determine if hes improved at all with his 3 point shooting. I do like the idea of him shooting 2-3 per game after a summer of working on it.

As for ball handling, I wouldn't hold my breath over it. Guy just looks lost every time hes had to do anything with the ball other than layups or hooks as a finisher. Im not expecting 20/10 from him because I think its a **** idea to really force the offense around a guy who doesn't create his own offense. We should just go after another creator.

I also don't really advocate blowing it up. I don't see a trade scenario out there for Ayton that makes us better, and Paul probably has 0 takers as well. In my mind, trading only Ayton would qualify as a retool, but again I see nothing out there that definitely makes us better.


So you have missed all his automatic midrange shots. The guy is easily 20/10 player taking 15FGA without any drives to the basket, which would be a bonus and make him 25ppg scorer. Looking at the poll I almost hope DA is traded and will be glad to see those who voted trade DA no matter what enjoy the likes of Turner and Brogdon in Suns uniforms.


As for the original point, not running at least more offense through Ayton doesn't make any sense. I am not sure why people fall in love with iso'ing. The quick shots (.5 offense you know)...THOSE shots are what win you games....make you pull away. Maybe iso more near the end, but then again, the better overall shot will be getting it to the right open guy instead of trying to dribble your way into a shot. Paul is very good at this, but is getting older. Booker is good at it, but getting it to Ayton is getting it to a guy that shoots better from every range.

He was 7/19 in the regular season from 3, and 2-4 in the playoffs, so 9-23 or 39.1%, but what is most impressive is his 3-10, 10-16, and 16-23 range shots...

Obviously the sample size from 3 is too much to draw a big conclusion from but it does show he can hit them, compared to his previous years (last year 20% 4/20, 2 years ago 23%, as a rookie 0%)

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https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/aytonde01/shooting/2022

I posted them in comparison to Bam's earlier, maybe in another thread, but far better from every range.

For reference, look at Ayton's compared to Booker, who is good from mid range and Ayton beats him from every range:

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https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bookede01/shooting/2022
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#857 » by sunsbg » Sun May 22, 2022 7:01 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:
sunskerr wrote:Aytons last 3 years shooting the 3

3/13
4/20
7/20

Theres not enough sample size to determine if hes improved at all with his 3 point shooting. I do like the idea of him shooting 2-3 per game after a summer of working on it.

As for ball handling, I wouldn't hold my breath over it. Guy just looks lost every time hes had to do anything with the ball other than layups or hooks as a finisher. Im not expecting 20/10 from him because I think its a **** idea to really force the offense around a guy who doesn't create his own offense. We should just go after another creator.

I also don't really advocate blowing it up. I don't see a trade scenario out there for Ayton that makes us better, and Paul probably has 0 takers as well. In my mind, trading only Ayton would qualify as a retool, but again I see nothing out there that definitely makes us better.


So you have missed all his automatic midrange shots. The guy is easily 20/10 player taking 15FGA without any drives to the basket, which would be a bonus and make him 25ppg scorer. Looking at the poll I almost hope DA is traded and will be glad to see those who voted trade DA no matter what enjoy the likes of Turner and Brogdon in Suns uniforms.


He was 7/19 in the regular season from 3, and 2-4 in the playoffs, so 9-23 or 39.1%, but what is most impressive is his 3-10, 10-16, and 16-23 range shots...

Image

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/aytonde01/shooting/2022

I posted them in comparison to Bam's earlier, maybe in another thread, but far better from every range.

For reference, look at Ayton's compared to Booker, who is good from mid range and Ayton beats him from every range:

Image

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bookede01/shooting/2022


He was 18/11.5 player two seasons ago with Rubio taking 15FGA and obviously improved since then despite taking fewer shots with CP3. There are still people doubting he's an efficient 20/10 player though. Unbelievable.
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#858 » by bwgood77 » Sun May 22, 2022 7:09 pm

sunsbg wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:
So you have missed all his automatic midrange shots. The guy is easily 20/10 player taking 15FGA without any drives to the basket, which would be a bonus and make him 25ppg scorer. Looking at the poll I almost hope DA is traded and will be glad to see those who voted trade DA no matter what enjoy the likes of Turner and Brogdon in Suns uniforms.


He was 7/19 in the regular season from 3, and 2-4 in the playoffs, so 9-23 or 39.1%, but what is most impressive is his 3-10, 10-16, and 16-23 range shots...

Image

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/aytonde01/shooting/2022

I posted them in comparison to Bam's earlier, maybe in another thread, but far better from every range.

For reference, look at Ayton's compared to Booker, who is good from mid range and Ayton beats him from every range:

Image

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bookede01/shooting/2022


He was 18/11.5 player two seasons ago with Rubio taking 15FGA and obviously improved since then despite taking fewer shots with CP3. There are still people doubting he's an efficient 20/10 player though. Unbelievable.


He scored 17.2 this year on 12 shots per game. 1.4333 pts per shot. So on 15 shots that calculates to 21.5. He shot 15 per game 2 years ago with Rubio and his efficiency has improved...and most of his shots are midrange...not spoonfed dunks/finishes, as people know.

I compared him earlier with Bam from every range, and now Book, but he also shoots better from every range than Embiid or Towns (except from 3 vs Towns).
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#859 » by sunskerr » Sun May 22, 2022 7:42 pm

Please stop comparing Bam to Ayton. They are entirely different players. One facilitates for his team with 60% of his shots assisted, whilst one is a finisher with 80%. Also do not compare him to Towns or Embiid. They are so far ahead of him offensively it's insulting to those guys.

Again, we already established pages ago that you can't just take a guy who is assisted on all his scoring and make him a massive focal point of your offense. Guys who don't create their offense are always capped by how often it is possible to feed them the ball or how many offensive rebounds/tip ins they get. Defenses adjust and they can take away passing opportunities to Ayton (which they do all the time).

The evidence is against Ayton at this point. It's not a matter of when, it's IF he can do it, and for what he's shown you wouldn't bet money on it. If you did it would be blind faith. I hope he can succeed in a bigger role, but you're asking a guy with his skill set, zero handles, to be a centerpiece to the offense outside of being a finisher and it's quite frankly silly.

We had this discussion last off season. Heck we did it for Bridges - had so many people last off season claiming Bridges would be a shot creator. And neither of them came through. Ayton is good at what he does but I'm not holding my breath at all that he comes back with shot creation abilities, handles, or a 3 ball. It's not unheard of (not impossible) but I'm not holding my breath.

Again, he's been GREAT in his role as a finisher on offense. And we do go to him quite a bit already (21% USG, 2nd most in the starters behind Booker). So he needs to level up his skills - it's not about him getting the ball more. It's about him getting better as a player so he can legitimately demand the ball without hurting the team, and he's not there yet.
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Re: 2022-23 Off-Season Discussion and Speculation 

Post#860 » by bwoolf2 » Sun May 22, 2022 8:31 pm

I think the biggest thing with Ayton is that he has been really good in his role and is probably deserving of a contract like JJJ got, however if he wants the Max and I'm ok with him getting it but he has to become a different player have a different mentality, it can't be this mindset where he tells Monty I can't pass myself the ball. Go get it! Attack the rim, attack the rebounds, attack off the dribble, you get a max contract there are no more excuses for nor dunking, not getting the ball not making a play, not getting the rebound, those days are over. Just not sure the mentality will ever be there for that, that's the question at this point.

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