Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion 3: About Last Knight

[DaleyBlind]

Would you rather have Capela and Dekker than Len and Warren?

yep, Warren is overrated by some on here

[Mulhollanddrive]

Have many teams traded a top 20 player in their prime, and it's worked out well?

[TOO]

I really have no interest in adding Butlers volatility to this team. Cousins is one thing because he can be flat out dominant, but Butler just wouldnt be worth the hassle and the assets IMO. I'd rather stay the course. Especially with this years 1st rounder.

[AtheJ415]

Would you rather have Capela and Dekker than Len and Warren?

yep, Warren is overrated by some on here

Insanity imo. Len is better at rim protection than Capela and can shoot at least somewhat relative to Capela (talking touch here not around the rim, where Capela is better but he has Harden feeding him and mostly gets dunks).

So basically it comes down to Dekker vs. Warren, which is a landslide.

[thamadkant]

Sprained knee for Parker

Phew..

[DaleyBlind]

Would you rather have Capela and Dekker than Len and Warren?

yep, Warren is overrated by some on here

Insanity imo. Len is better at rim protection than Capela and can shoot at least somewhat relative to Capela (talking touch here not around the rim, where Capela is better but he has Harden feeding him and mostly gets dunks).

So basically it comes down to Dekker vs. Warren, which is a landslide.

Your probably right, I just think Wareen is overrated...a scorer (who doesnt score that much) who cant shoot 3's and plays bad defense (i dont care how much you tell me he has improved)

[AtheJ415]

yep, Warren is overrated by some on here

Insanity imo. Len is better at rim protection than Capela and can shoot at least somewhat relative to Capela (talking touch here not around the rim, where Capela is better but he has Harden feeding him and mostly gets dunks).

So basically it comes down to Dekker vs. Warren, which is a landslide.

Your probably right, I just think Wareen is overrated...a scorer (who doesnt score that much) who cant shoot 3's and plays bad defense (i dont care how much you tell me he has improved)

He plays average defense. But it is an improvement and that is important because he cares about that end and wants to improve. Some guys (a lot of Dukies in particular) don't care about that end of the court in the NBA and never improve. I think TJ can be an above average to good defender while being a very efficient offensive player. He did shoot 40% from 3 last year and was awesome before injury. I'd give him more time first. His numbers have improved of late. If Tucker can shoot the 3 ball above 33% there is no reason to think TJ can't at least get to that level.

[Qwigglez]

I really have no interest in adding Butlers volatility to this team. Cousins is one thing because he can be flat out dominant, but Butler just wouldnt be worth the hassle and the assets IMO. I'd rather stay the course. Especially with this years 1st rounder.

I'd rather go for Butler to be completely honest. A couple of reasons why...
1.) His contract. He's locked in for 3 more season after this one. Though his final contract season in 2019/20 is a player option. Still though, if we traded for him, it would give us the opportunity to land a top free agent this offseason. We could worry about his contract later.
2.) He's a dynamic two way player. Him and Bledsoe guarding the perimeter is a dream. Imagine getting Ibaka, who can launch threes but can also guard the interior. He can catch and shoot, which gives us the option of spreading the floor when Bledsoe or Booker handle the ball. Clutch shooter too, I don't particularly like his shooting mechanics, but he can shoot lights out.
3.) Not as much of a headcase as Cousins. I think a lot of what is happening with Butler is Chicago's front offices fault. I'm sure you've heard the rumors about them spying on players and what not, so I'll just leave it there.

[King4Day]

I think Warren being overrated has more to do with the start he had to the season. He was so good. Once he got hurt, he's never been the same.

[carey]

Giving up on Warren is a little shortsighted to me, but I understand where you're all coming from. This situation seems a little bit like the one we had with Isiah Thomas. IT2 didn't look great in our system. He was pounding the ball and disrupting our offense. He went somewhere that developed a system that emphasized his strengths and now you have a perennial All-Star. Warren is a slasher and finisher who would flourish in an offense that moves the ball consistently. He isn't the SF you want in a drive and kick/ISO offense so he looks unimpressive at times here. If we stick with this awful offense he probably will be traded for another 3&D PJ Tucker type since that's what they seem to prefer at that position. I firmly believe that if TJ goes to the right team you'll see a guy that puts up 20 points every night and plays solid, if unspectacular, defense.

(Please note that I'm not comparing Warren to IT as players before you start typing out the "You're stupid" responses.)

[Mulhollanddrive]

My guess is that we'll probably move just the one player for a top 16 protected future first or something like that.

50/50 chance between Tucker or Knight.

[darealjuice]

Giving up on Warren is a little shortsighted to me, but I understand where you're all coming from. This situation seems a little bit like the one we had with Isiah Thomas. IT2 didn't look great in our system. He was pounding the ball and disrupting our offense. He went somewhere that developed a system that emphasized his strengths and now you have a perennial All-Star. Warren is a slasher and finisher who would flourish in an offense that moves the ball consistently. He isn't the SF you want in a drive and kick/ISO offense so he looks unimpressive at times here. If we stick with this awful offense he probably will be traded for another 3&D PJ Tucker type since that's what they seem to prefer at that position. I firmly believe that if TJ goes to the right team you'll see a guy that puts up 20 points every night and plays solid, if unspectacular, defense.

(Please note that I'm not comparing Warren to IT as players before you start typing out the "You're stupid" responses.)

This offensive scheme is "awful" because of the players we have right now, not the scheme. We run the same basic scheme as almost the entire league, every team has a few small wrinkles thrown in that differentiate them from others and we're no different. Pace-and-space is just how basketball is played now, and TJ can and did thrive in it. The problem is we're playing pace-and-no-space right now because we cut our only floor spacer (Dudley) out of the rotation in favor of 2 rookies that are not good enough shooters for defenses to worry about yet. Naturally, when defenses don't have to worry about shooters they pack-in more, making it difficult for mid-range oriented players like TJ to operate.

The kicker is that TJ is part of the reason we have no spacing anymore because he actively avoids shooting open 3s in favor of attacking closeouts to the point where it's predictable that he won't shoot even if you give him the space to. This works for him when shooters are on the floor because the defense can't leave shooters open to collapse on TJ when he attacks, but when he's on the floor with guys like PJ, Chriss, and Bender that don't have the respect from the defense and are frequently left open, he draws their defenders too and has to take tougher shots or pass the ball out to the players that are not good shooters, which obviously hurts his impact. He's still had games where he's been able to find the basket, but everything has become a lot more difficult for him since he came back to the new rotation.

On the bright side, Bender and Chriss both project to develop into versatile players on offense that are able to space the floor out and make it easier for TJ to operate if he's here in the future, so I'm optimistic that he'll still be able to succeed playing his game despite it not matching up with the current trend.

[bwgood77]

Giving up on Warren is a little shortsighted to me, but I understand where you're all coming from. This situation seems a little bit like the one we had with Isiah Thomas. IT2 didn't look great in our system. He was pounding the ball and disrupting our offense. He went somewhere that developed a system that emphasized his strengths and now you have a perennial All-Star. Warren is a slasher and finisher who would flourish in an offense that moves the ball consistently. He isn't the SF you want in a drive and kick/ISO offense so he looks unimpressive at times here. If we stick with this awful offense he probably will be traded for another 3&D PJ Tucker type since that's what they seem to prefer at that position. I firmly believe that if TJ goes to the right team you'll see a guy that puts up 20 points every night and plays solid, if unspectacular, defense.

(Please note that I'm not comparing Warren to IT as players before you start typing out the "You're stupid" responses.)

This offensive scheme is "awful" because of the players we have right now, not the scheme. We run the same basic scheme as almost the entire league, every team has a few small wrinkles thrown in that differentiate them from others and we're no different. Pace-and-space is just how basketball is played now, and TJ can and did thrive in it. The problem is we're playing pace-and-no-space right now because we cut our only floor spacer (Dudley) out of the rotation in favor of 2 rookies that are not good enough shooters for defenses to worry about yet. Naturally, when defenses don't have to worry about shooters they pack-in more, making it difficult for mid-range oriented players like TJ to operate.

The kicker is that TJ is part of the reason we have no spacing anymore because he actively avoids shooting open 3s in favor of attacking closeouts to the point where it's predictable that he won't shoot even if you give him the space to. This works for him when shooters are on the floor because the defense can't leave shooters open to collapse on TJ when he attacks, but when he's on the floor with guys like PJ, Chriss, and Bender that don't have the respect from the defense and are frequently left open, he draws their defenders too and has to take tougher shots or pass the ball out to the players that are not good shooters, which obviously hurts his impact. He's still had games where he's been able to find the basket, but everything has become a lot more difficult for him since he came back to the new rotation.

On the bright side, Bender and Chriss both project to develop into versatile players on offense that are able to space the floor out and make it easier for TJ to operate if he's here in the future, so I'm optimistic that he'll still be able to succeed playing his game despite it not matching up with the current trend.

Great point. His effectiveness definitely coincided with Dudley starting.

[sunsbum]

No way I trade Chriss or Bender in a deal for Butler. Too old for our core ontop of us being on track for #1 pick. I got long term goals and the 4th seed in the West ain't in it!

[Mulhollanddrive]

Warren's shooting over 50% from 2 in his past 20 games, so that's still going well.

Main difference seems to be the regression of improvement he showed in the first month - Defensive Rating, Rebounds, Steals, Usage, 3 Point Shooting.

I'm still optimistic it's the health issue that halted his progress he showed and he can get it back next season.

[TOO]

I really have no interest in adding Butlers volatility to this team. Cousins is one thing because he can be flat out dominant, but Butler just wouldnt be worth the hassle and the assets IMO. I'd rather stay the course. Especially with this years 1st rounder.

I'd rather go for Butler to be completely honest. A couple of reasons why...
1.) His contract. He's locked in for 3 more season after this one. Though his final contract season in 2019/20 is a player option. Still though, if we traded for him, it would give us the opportunity to land a top free agent this offseason. We could worry about his contract later.
2.) He's a dynamic two way player. Him and Bledsoe guarding the perimeter is a dream. Imagine getting Ibaka, who can launch threes but can also guard the interior. He can catch and shoot, which gives us the option of spreading the floor when Bledsoe or Booker handle the ball. Clutch shooter too, I don't particularly like his shooting mechanics, but he can shoot lights out.
3.) Not as much of a headcase as Cousins. I think a lot of what is happening with Butler is Chicago's front offices fault. I'm sure you've heard the rumors about them spying on players and what not, so I'll just leave it there.

Butler isnt the type to come here to take a complimentary role. He thinks he's an alpha, Booker thinks he's an alpha. We've seen what happens when you alienate or minimize a player here. Butler will not make Phoenix a FA destination, hell the new CBA literally penalizes you for leaving your team as a FA, Butler certainly doesnt offer up that much of an increase in your title chances to leave millions on the table as a FA. Now add all that to the fact that is gonna cost a lot of assets to get him, which further hurts the teams growth and development for a slight potential win now upgrade and to me, it just doesnt make sense. Say you give up Chriss, TJ, and Lonzo Ball for Jimmy Butler. Thats a downright awful trade for this team considering its record, age, and direction. Its just bad.

[NTB]

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[King4Day]

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Anything of note discussed?

[carey]

Sprained knee for Parker

Torn ACL

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[ATTL]

That's rough.
What is bledsoes value if(when?) he gets hurt again? What is it now or this summer?