Welcome Ryan Dunn

[sunsbg]

Haven't seen people so devided over a rookie since...nevermind. I'm fine with Dunn at #28, but would've preferred Kolek or another PG with the other pick.

[lilfishi22]

but his shooting/offense, is a huge red flag, not only the terrible 3pt shot, but the FT%, if good, usually gives hope that 3pt can be improved.

He also can't put the ball on the floor nor read the court, literally just a cone on offense

Again, you are aware that Dunn has elite spatial awareness, is an above-average cutter, and is an underrated playmaker too. Sure he didn't average hardly any assists in his limited role of 13 minutes in his freshman year as a play finisher and athletic dunkers' spot lob threat/rebounder per Tony Bennett. But he also didn't make many if any mistakes in his role either and DID SHOW FLASHES OF ADVANCED court vision and playmaking in the short roll too:
https://www.noceilingsnba.com/p/ryan-dunn-agent-of-chaos (this is a really good breakdown on Dunn you should read if you find some time man)
**Check out the short video breakdowns on Dunns' Awareness (1 and 2) as well as his patience and especially playmaking! I would paste them here, but it won't allow me to, unfortunately.

There have been minimal flashes when it comes to the playmaking from Ryan Dunn this year. He’s averaging just 1.2 assists per game to go with 0.4 turnovers. With his role currently with Virginia, it’s simply just not part of his game. Virginia puts Dunn all over the place on the offensive side of the ball.

You’ll see instances in which he’s the roll man in P&R actions. He’s just been asked to do a little bit of everything, going back to his limited minutes as a freshman. But there are some “teases” of Dunn having some feel on the offensive side of the floor. Personally, this is another area I want to focus on throughout the year. If Dunn can continue to showcase some instances of feel, that might be another aspect of his game that is waiting to be unlocked.

https://edemirnba.substack.com/p/ryan-dunn-scouting-report

Another value in his profile that improves a passer imminent is his composure. In the fourth play below, Dunn dribbles out of the double-team around the baseline to come up with the skip pass to elbow shooter. Answering on-ball pressure is the key element for ball handlers in creating advantages, and Dunn is showing flashes he can do it for a team in the long run.

Acknowledging that Dunn will mostly used as a ball-move early on, the last play below shows how he can thrive in that role as a does-it-all wing. After the side pass, Dunn sets a strong screen, following it up by going into offensive box-out mode to battle for a potential long rebound. Looking further than the lack of self-confidence at times, it should be hopeful for NBA decision-makers to see Dunn mastering all the must-haves to improve as an offensive piece in the NBA.

He doesn't make many mistakes because he doesn't have the ball longer than to dunk the damn thing to make a mistake. He had 26 assists all season long (with 28 TO's) and if he was underrated as a passer, I'd think he'd do a little better than that don't you? It's like trying to sell me on DA being underrated at getting to the rim despite his 1.4 FTA. I really don't know where you're extrapolating this advance court vision from? Like are thse passes so crazy that only he could see it and make that pass? I don't think so. Perhaps he just has decent court vision and has made a few fundamental passes but that doesn't mean he somehow has advance court vision. There's just far too little offensively to go on and with any consistency even at the college level to say he's anymore than a run and dunk guy or dunker spot guy. And most scouting reports can be summarised by that (while also giving the highest of praise to his elite defense).

I WANT to like this guy because he's a Phoenix Sun player now. I've been watching more and more tape/scouting videos/scouting reports trying to see if there's actually something I'm not seeing but the way you're selling him like he's all these things that he never showed with any consistency in college makes me feel like you're straight up selling snake oil.

He's coming in as one of the worst offensive players in a while (for your sake, I'll say incomplete) and that's just what it is. He can improve sure but don't make it sound like he's all these things that he was never allowed to show. I've said this so many times when it comes to talent, talent will shine through regardless of coaching, scheme or roster constructions. I can see the defensive talent, it's unreal we have a guy like that on the team but offensively, he sucks and may not play more than 20mpg because of that. And it's just what it is when you're picking dudes at the end of the 1st round. I believe and can see 100% of what you're saying defensively but offensively, even at my most optimistic, I can't even meet you 1/4 of the way.

[garrick]

He also can't put the ball on the floor nor read the court, literally just a cone on offense

Again, you are aware that Dunn has elite spatial awareness, is an above-average cutter, and is an underrated playmaker too. Sure he didn't average hardly any assists in his limited role of 13 minutes in his freshman year as a play finisher and athletic dunkers' spot lob threat/rebounder per Tony Bennett. But he also didn't make many if any mistakes in his role either and DID SHOW FLASHES OF ADVANCED court vision and playmaking in the short roll too:
https://www.noceilingsnba.com/p/ryan-dunn-agent-of-chaos (this is a really good breakdown on Dunn you should read if you find some time man)
**Check out the short video breakdowns on Dunns' Awareness (1 and 2) as well as his patience and especially playmaking! I would paste them here, but it won't allow me to, unfortunately.

There have been minimal flashes when it comes to the playmaking from Ryan Dunn this year. He’s averaging just 1.2 assists per game to go with 0.4 turnovers. With his role currently with Virginia, it’s simply just not part of his game. Virginia puts Dunn all over the place on the offensive side of the ball.

You’ll see instances in which he’s the roll man in P&R actions. He’s just been asked to do a little bit of everything, going back to his limited minutes as a freshman. But there are some “teases” of Dunn having some feel on the offensive side of the floor. Personally, this is another area I want to focus on throughout the year. If Dunn can continue to showcase some instances of feel, that might be another aspect of his game that is waiting to be unlocked.

https://edemirnba.substack.com/p/ryan-dunn-scouting-report

Another value in his profile that improves a passer imminent is his composure. In the fourth play below, Dunn dribbles out of the double-team around the baseline to come up with the skip pass to elbow shooter. Answering on-ball pressure is the key element for ball handlers in creating advantages, and Dunn is showing flashes he can do it for a team in the long run.

Acknowledging that Dunn will mostly used as a ball-move early on, the last play below shows how he can thrive in that role as a does-it-all wing. After the side pass, Dunn sets a strong screen, following it up by going into offensive box-out mode to battle for a potential long rebound. Looking further than the lack of self-confidence at times, it should be hopeful for NBA decision-makers to see Dunn mastering all the must-haves to improve as an offensive piece in the NBA.

He doesn't make many mistakes because he doesn't have the ball longer than to dunk the damn thing to make a mistake. He had 26 assists all season long (with 28 TO's) and if he was underrated as a passer, I'd think he'd do a little better than that don't you? It's like trying to sell me on DA being underrated at getting to the rim despite his 1.4 FTA. I really don't know where you're extrapolating this advance court vision from? Like are thse passes so crazy that only he could see it and make that pass? I don't think so. Perhaps he just has decent court vision and has made a few fundamental passes but that doesn't mean he somehow has advance court vision. There's just far too little offensively to go on and with any consistency even at the college level to say he's anymore than a run and dunk guy or dunker spot guy. And most scouting reports can be summarised by that (while also giving the highest of praise to his elite defense).

I WANT to like this guy because he's a Phoenix Sun player now. I've been watching more and more tape/scouting videos/scouting reports trying to see if there's actually something I'm not seeing but the way you're selling him like he's all these things that he never showed with any consistency in college makes me feel like you're straight up selling snake oil.

He's coming in as one of the worst offensive players in a while (for your sake, I'll say incomplete) and that's just what it is. He can improve sure but don't make it sound like he's all these things that he was never allowed to show. I've said this so many times when it comes to talent, talent will shine through regardless of coaching, scheme or roster constructions. I can see the defensive talent, it's unreal we have a guy like that on the team but offensively, he sucks and may not play more than 20mpg because of that. And it's just what it is when you're picking dudes at the end of the 1st round. I believe and can see 100% of what you're saying defensively but offensively, even at my most optimistic, I can't even meet you 1/4 of the way.

From watching the post draft videos it seems like Ishbia made a promise to Dunn that we would pick him no matter what which is pretty foolish because you never know when another player might be available by the time your turn comes to draft.

Like you I really am not sold on Dunn due to his severe offensive liabilities and while he might be able to improve it will likely take a few years which is a huge detriment when we need to really win now before KD's window closes. While I applaud getting more picks than we started out with I really just do not trust this front office's decision making and am convinced they've make a mistake trying to choose a high risk high reward prospect when the safer pick (Kolek, Holmes) would have been the more prudent choice.

[Slim Charless]

Again, you are aware that Dunn has elite spatial awareness, is an above-average cutter, and is an underrated playmaker too. Sure he didn't average hardly any assists in his limited role of 13 minutes in his freshman year as a play finisher and athletic dunkers' spot lob threat/rebounder per Tony Bennett. But he also didn't make many if any mistakes in his role either and DID SHOW FLASHES OF ADVANCED court vision and playmaking in the short roll too:
https://www.noceilingsnba.com/p/ryan-dunn-agent-of-chaos (this is a really good breakdown on Dunn you should read if you find some time man)
**Check out the short video breakdowns on Dunns' Awareness (1 and 2) as well as his patience and especially playmaking! I would paste them here, but it won't allow me to, unfortunately.


https://edemirnba.substack.com/p/ryan-dunn-scouting-report

He doesn't make many mistakes because he doesn't have the ball longer than to dunk the damn thing to make a mistake. He had 26 assists all season long (with 28 TO's) and if he was underrated as a passer, I'd think he'd do a little better than that don't you? It's like trying to sell me on DA being underrated at getting to the rim despite his 1.4 FTA. I really don't know where you're extrapolating this advance court vision from? Like are thse passes so crazy that only he could see it and make that pass? I don't think so. Perhaps he just has decent court vision and has made a few fundamental passes but that doesn't mean he somehow has advance court vision. There's just far too little offensively to go on and with any consistency even at the college level to say he's anymore than a run and dunk guy or dunker spot guy. And most scouting reports can be summarised by that (while also giving the highest of praise to his elite defense).

I WANT to like this guy because he's a Phoenix Sun player now. I've been watching more and more tape/scouting videos/scouting reports trying to see if there's actually something I'm not seeing but the way you're selling him like he's all these things that he never showed with any consistency in college makes me feel like you're straight up selling snake oil.

He's coming in as one of the worst offensive players in a while (for your sake, I'll say incomplete) and that's just what it is. He can improve sure but don't make it sound like he's all these things that he was never allowed to show. I've said this so many times when it comes to talent, talent will shine through regardless of coaching, scheme or roster constructions. I can see the defensive talent, it's unreal we have a guy like that on the team but offensively, he sucks and may not play more than 20mpg because of that. And it's just what it is when you're picking dudes at the end of the 1st round. I believe and can see 100% of what you're saying defensively but offensively, even at my most optimistic, I can't even meet you 1/4 of the way.

From watching the post draft videos it seems like Ishbia made a promise to Dunn that we would pick him no matter what which is pretty foolish because you never know when another player might be available by the time your turn comes to draft.

Like you I really am not sold on Dunn due to his severe offensive liabilities and while he might be able to improve it will likely take a few years which is a huge detriment when we need to really win now before KD's window closes. While I applaud getting more picks than we started out with I really just do not trust this front office's decision making and am convinced they've make a mistake trying to choose a high risk high reward prospect when the safer pick (Kolek, Holmes) would have been the more prudent choice.

He's probably the best defender on the team. Already. He's also gonna be great at getting us the effort turnovers and points.

We don't need another scorer. We have 3 guys that can got for 50 on any given night and will all be putting 20 shots a game-along with Grayson who wants his own shots.

[garrick]

He doesn't make many mistakes because he doesn't have the ball longer than to dunk the damn thing to make a mistake. He had 26 assists all season long (with 28 TO's) and if he was underrated as a passer, I'd think he'd do a little better than that don't you? It's like trying to sell me on DA being underrated at getting to the rim despite his 1.4 FTA. I really don't know where you're extrapolating this advance court vision from? Like are thse passes so crazy that only he could see it and make that pass? I don't think so. Perhaps he just has decent court vision and has made a few fundamental passes but that doesn't mean he somehow has advance court vision. There's just far too little offensively to go on and with any consistency even at the college level to say he's anymore than a run and dunk guy or dunker spot guy. And most scouting reports can be summarised by that (while also giving the highest of praise to his elite defense).

I WANT to like this guy because he's a Phoenix Sun player now. I've been watching more and more tape/scouting videos/scouting reports trying to see if there's actually something I'm not seeing but the way you're selling him like he's all these things that he never showed with any consistency in college makes me feel like you're straight up selling snake oil.

He's coming in as one of the worst offensive players in a while (for your sake, I'll say incomplete) and that's just what it is. He can improve sure but don't make it sound like he's all these things that he was never allowed to show. I've said this so many times when it comes to talent, talent will shine through regardless of coaching, scheme or roster constructions. I can see the defensive talent, it's unreal we have a guy like that on the team but offensively, he sucks and may not play more than 20mpg because of that. And it's just what it is when you're picking dudes at the end of the 1st round. I believe and can see 100% of what you're saying defensively but offensively, even at my most optimistic, I can't even meet you 1/4 of the way.

From watching the post draft videos it seems like Ishbia made a promise to Dunn that we would pick him no matter what which is pretty foolish because you never know when another player might be available by the time your turn comes to draft.

Like you I really am not sold on Dunn due to his severe offensive liabilities and while he might be able to improve it will likely take a few years which is a huge detriment when we need to really win now before KD's window closes. While I applaud getting more picks than we started out with I really just do not trust this front office's decision making and am convinced they've make a mistake trying to choose a high risk high reward prospect when the safer pick (Kolek, Holmes) would have been the more prudent choice.

He's probably the best defender on the team. Already. He's also gonna be great at getting us the effort turnovers and points.

We don't need another scorer. We have 3 guys that can got for 50 on any given night and will all be putting 20 shots a game-along with Grayson who wants his own shots.

That was the problem last season.

Teams can load up on the big 3 and there's no outlet because you got Nurk and whoever bricking shots and the defense is all too happy to let the bench or anyone besides the big 3 struggle to score.

He doesn't need to be a big time scorer but he does need to hit his free throws and be somewhat of a threat to hit a 3 otherwise he's a bigger version of Okogie who for all his offensive limitations at this point is still a better shooter than Dunn.

[Ghost of Kleine]

He also can't put the ball on the floor nor read the court, literally just a cone on offense

Again, you are aware that Dunn has elite spatial awareness, is an above-average cutter, and is an underrated playmaker too. Sure he didn't average hardly any assists in his limited role of 13 minutes in his freshman year as a play finisher and athletic dunkers' spot lob threat/rebounder per Tony Bennett. But he also didn't make many if any mistakes in his role either and DID SHOW FLASHES OF ADVANCED court vision and playmaking in the short roll too:
https://www.noceilingsnba.com/p/ryan-dunn-agent-of-chaos (this is a really good breakdown on Dunn you should read if you find some time man)
**Check out the short video breakdowns on Dunns' Awareness (1 and 2) as well as his patience and especially playmaking! I would paste them here, but it won't allow me to, unfortunately.

There have been minimal flashes when it comes to the playmaking from Ryan Dunn this year. He’s averaging just 1.2 assists per game to go with 0.4 turnovers. With his role currently with Virginia, it’s simply just not part of his game. Virginia puts Dunn all over the place on the offensive side of the ball.

You’ll see instances in which he’s the roll man in P&R actions. He’s just been asked to do a little bit of everything, going back to his limited minutes as a freshman. But there are some “teases” of Dunn having some feel on the offensive side of the floor. Personally, this is another area I want to focus on throughout the year. If Dunn can continue to showcase some instances of feel, that might be another aspect of his game that is waiting to be unlocked.

https://edemirnba.substack.com/p/ryan-dunn-scouting-report

Another value in his profile that improves a passer imminent is his composure. In the fourth play below, Dunn dribbles out of the double-team around the baseline to come up with the skip pass to elbow shooter. Answering on-ball pressure is the key element for ball handlers in creating advantages, and Dunn is showing flashes he can do it for a team in the long run.

Acknowledging that Dunn will mostly used as a ball-move early on, the last play below shows how he can thrive in that role as a does-it-all wing. After the side pass, Dunn sets a strong screen, following it up by going into offensive box-out mode to battle for a potential long rebound. Looking further than the lack of self-confidence at times, it should be hopeful for NBA decision-makers to see Dunn mastering all the must-haves to improve as an offensive piece in the NBA.

He doesn't make many mistakes because he doesn't have the ball longer than to dunk the damn thing to make a mistake. He had 26 assists all season long (with 28 TO's) and if he was underrated as a passer, I'd think he'd do a little better than that don't you? It's like trying to sell me on DA being underrated at getting to the rim despite his 1.4 FTA. I really don't know where you're extrapolating this advance court vision from? Like are thse passes so crazy that only he could see it and make that pass? I don't think so. Perhaps he just has decent court vision and has made a few fundamental passes but that doesn't mean he somehow has advance court vision. There's just far too little offensively to go on and with any consistency even at the college level to say he's anymore than a run and dunk guy or dunker spot guy. And most scouting reports can be summarised by that (while also giving the highest of praise to his elite defense).

I WANT to like this guy because he's a Phoenix Sun player now. I've been watching more and more tape/scouting videos/scouting reports trying to see if there's actually something I'm not seeing but the way you're selling him like he's all these things that he never showed with any consistency in college makes me feel like you're straight up selling snake oil.

He's coming in as one of the worst offensive players in a while (for your sake, I'll say incomplete) and that's just what it is. He can improve sure but don't make it sound like he's all these things that he was never allowed to show. I've said this so many times when it comes to talent, talent will shine through regardless of coaching, scheme, or roster constructions. I can see the defensive talent, it's unreal we have a guy like that on the team but offensively, he sucks and may not play more than 20mpg because of that. And it's just what it is when you're picking dudes at the end of the 1st round. I believe and can see 100% of what you're saying defensively but offensively, even at my most optimistic, I can't even meet you 1/4 of the way.

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He doesn't make many mistakes because he doesn't have the ball longer than to dunk the damn thing to make a mistake. He had 26 assists all season long (with 28 TO's) and if he was underrated as a passer, I'd think he'd do a little better than that don't you? It's like trying to sell me on DA being underrated at getting to the rim despite his 1.4 FTA. I really don't know where you're extrapolating this advance court vision from? Like are thse passes so crazy that only he could see it and make that pass? I don't think so. Perhaps he just has decent court vision and has made a few fundamental passes but that doesn't mean he somehow has advance court vision. There's just far too little offensively to go on and with any consistency even at the college level to say he's anymore than a run and dunk guy or dunker spot guy. And most scouting reports can be summarised by that (while also giving the highest of praise to his elite defense).

- He's only played around 11-13 minutes a game in his first season for them, and his specified role was not in any way as a primary playmaker for them at all, AND if you happened to read the articles that I've already shared, and the direct quotes too, some from Dunns' coach Tony Bennet himself, you'd see the context of Dunns' very limited role, minutes and available opportunities in Virginia. His own coach stated his role was specifically to be a play finisher, lob threat, and defensive specialist. And again in very limited minutes too, So it's not like he'd have much opportunity to have the ball often enough to make frequent plays dribbling, passing, or otherwise man. H was asked to play a very specific role by his coach, and he did that perfectly and unselfishly too. Maybe if he was given more time in an expanded role beyond just a play finisher, rebound, lob threat, and defensive specialist, you'd be seeing more examples of his playmaking, ball movement, and other attributes. The point is that this kid showed "flashes" of auxiliary skills, and playmaking potential despite being constrained to a very limited role and very limited playing time that didn't really allow for him to advance his personal development to other areas of his game per the instructed role by Tony Bennett himself. I get that Dunn in total only had 26 assists and two more turnovers than his total assists which still speaks to his potential as a playmaker despite those inhibiting factors he dealt with. If nothing else, it speaks to his selflessness and willingness to sacrifice for the betterment of the team over his personal growth and interests in promoting himself.

https://www.noceilingsnba.com/p/ryan-dunn-agent-of-chaos
Check this draft profile report on Dunn and look at a few things starting with the minutes in 2023 (his freshman season) and tell me how much improvement you'd reasonably expect a walk-on prospect to be showing while playing only around 12 minutes per game??? And in a very specific role wherein he spent the vast majority of those 12 minutes as a play finisher around the rim as a lob threat, rebounder, and defensive specialist as stated by his coach Tony Bennett himself who lauded Dunn for his willingness to sacrifice for the team BECAUSE they lacked size and athleticism on that roster. Yet even with very limited minutes, in a very limited contained role, and playing for one of the slowest-paced teams with one of the lowest possession rates per game, Dunn was still able to impact the game outside of his role as a supplemental playmaker that made quick reads "on the fly" and in the short roll while limiting errors despite his very limited experience in his first season, or any semblance of significant playing time. And really all you have to do man to see clear evidence of his playmaking ability and other attributes that I've promoted or (sold as value factors) is to look at the link I provided that has detailed information and even has short video breakdowns of these specific additional attributes I've spoke about. Also once you look at the variance in minutes, also notice his improvement in statistical production, FG%, and FT % at almost 70% when his minutes actually increased and he actually got to start (play in a more expanded role with more opportunities.


Also, even the best and most renowned playmakers/passers in the game have had stretches or periods of time in which they either struggled or for whatever reason registered more turnovers than assists but were still considered solid or great passers/playmakers possessing advanced court vision and/or underrated passing. Not all passes need to be flashy, fancy, or outlier crazy for a player to be considered to show instances of having advanced court vision man! Many of the best passers in the game also use fundamental or basic passes in their games too. Advanced court vision by definition and consensus understanding of the term is the ability to see the court and things developing on the court even if not in direct view. Now Dunn has indeed shown flashes of this with his being able to make quick decisive reads in motion while drawing the defenders and making effective passes without defenders anticipating the passes consistently. Your small sample season total assist/To example is not really an accurate correlative example of his playmaking ability or potential because it's cumulative and even really skilled players can have outlier bad games at certain aspects (passing or other metrics) but that doesn't always accurately represent their respective abilities nearly as much as per game because game dynamics can fluctuate and skew numbers too.


At worst, he's currently neutral as a very limited-usage playmaker playing a supplemental playmaking role in this context outside of his normal role yet still making quick reads, fundamental effective passes on the move and quickly moving the ball for a 12-minute-per-game first-year player! I'm not really sure what you're expecting beyond what he's showing considering those limitations man?? But maybe with an expanded role towards greater development of those other attributes, you'll see the growth you're looking for but not currently seeing. And while you're absolutely right when you say that "there's far too little offensively to go on with any consistency at the college level" " what you're saying that only further validates the context of my point around him getting very limited minutes, opportunities, etc to even reasonably have a chance to properly develop at Virginia and in there system and show the full range of what he's capable of. But then also saying that he's not likely anything more than a run-and-dunk guy or just a dunkers' spot guy is honestly incredibly dismissive and not at all objective considering all the reports, information, video clips, etc that we have to go off of already and also not equitably considering the clear inhibiting factors involved such as the very limited opportunities no longer present that potentially limited his growth, and development arch, and even the simple fact that really no 21 yr olds are finished products at that age!!

I WANT to like this guy because he's a Phoenix Sun player now. I've been watching more and more tape/scouting videos/scouting reports trying to see if there's actually something I'm not seeing but the way you're selling him like he's all these things that he never showed with any consistency in college makes me feel like you're straight up selling snake oil.

- I get that you and some others may not be able to see what I'm seeing, Or for that matter what many of the draft experts, professional scouts, lifelong NBA experts, and pundits or even some NBA front offices spoke to from his workouts. Ultimately people are too often limited by their opinions and unable to see beyond the obvious, or only able rally to see surface value in most things. It's just the way it is sometimes, but socially in basketball wherein values are highly scalable and often "eye of the beholder" situations. But to say that I'm selling him in a way that he's all of these things that he's never shown is honestly BS man and disingenuous. I've only promoted attributes that have already been documented either by professional scouts and college basketball experts who do this for a living and have much better resources, opportunities, and inside information/ knowledge than either you or I have at our disposal. The things that I've "sold" are cited directly from the articles that I've shared with BOTH you and BWGood in my previous posts regarding his draft profile assessments, with video clip breakdowns and really all the info you could apply to make an informed assessment. Beyond that, please tell me exactly what I've been selling about Dunn that is a factual impossibility for him to accomplish/ improve upon to achieve certain goals (outside of personal bias perspectives)?

You keep speaking to showing no consistency in college man while ignoring the pertinent context that I've shared relating to this very inconsistency that you speak of. Yet even by a small measure, I've shown evidence of measurable improvement (via the Tyler Rucker draft report linked above) that Dunn achieved statistically and in percentage for his FG% scoring metrics and FT % metrics as a direct result of simply getting more playing time and increased opportunities in a starting role. Is that not at all a relevant consideration towards my argument for his potential improvement? Please just go to the link above (Ryan Dunn - agent of Chaos) and briefly peruse the breakdown and empirical data shared as well as the very brief video clip breakdowns to hopefully see instances of "what I'm selling" And if you're still not convinced, then just tell me you're not buying my snake oil man! But please know that it has new wonderful ingredients in it though! like chalk, arsenic, bits of red flannel for whatever Ails you ...LOL

He's coming in as one of the worst offensive players in a while (for your sake, I'll say incomplete) and that's just what it is. He can improve sure but don't make it sound like he's all these things that he was never allowed to show. I've said this so many times when it comes to talent, talent will shine through regardless of coaching, scheme, or roster constructions. I can see the defensive talent, it's unreal we have a guy like that on the team but offensively, he sucks and may not play more than 20mpg because of that. And it's just what it is when you're picking dudes at the end of the 1st round. I believe and can see 100% of what you're saying defensively but offensively, even at my most optimistic, I can't even meet you 1/4 of the way.

- Well yeah man! I've already acknowledged his offensive/ shooting concerns as significant! And even agreed that he'd have significant work to put in in order to become much better on the offensive end. And honestly, you and others have made those concerns beyond well-known to the point of irrational obsession honestly LOL. I mean I'm not sure what the goal is here by constantly arguing the obvious over and over again. It's not going to somehow magically make Dunn disappear and replace him with some other prospect you preferred. It's also not going to somehow improve his weaknesses either by beating the topic into the ground over and over. We all get it man! He's a bad shooter and has a ton of improvement to make offensively, and you clearly don't think he'll be a positive player for us nor do you think he'll get better or be an impact player for us and you're assessment is that he'll be a net negative or at best a neutral factor offensively to where he'll be unplayable. Am I supposed to suddenly dislike him because of his faults/ weaknesses? Am I and the rest of us that actually like and endorse the pick supposed to crucify the kid for being a ready-made or finished product? At 21 freaking years old...LOL But really man! just answer me two quick things k:

1- Is our team weak offensively to where scoring/ shooting is somehow a critical issue for us even though we have 3 very elite HOF-level nuclear-scoring weapons in Beal, Booker, and Durant, And because of that, weren't we also known as an elite offensive team?

2- Did the Suns go into the draft targeting Dunn with the idea that he'd need to be some significant impactful offensive weapon for u??

............Or maybe just maybe do you think it's possible that they targeted him because they recognized that our roster lacked any LEGITIMATE lockdown defender aside from a 36-year-old KD? And they had an epiphany that it might be somewhat unreasonable to put that much pressure of being a defensive anchor on a 36-year-old Durant while simultaneously asking him to still close games for us too at an elite level! And maybe just maybe from that consideration, they chose to target two strong defensive prospects so they could free up Booker, Kd, and even Beal to not have to carry that much defensive pressure, which would allow them to focus more on being even more offensively elite without as much exhaustion from overexerting themselves on the defensive end also trying to operate as our shutdown defenders. It's in comprehending this that Dunns' significant value to us EVEN ASIDE FROM OFFENSIVE CONCERNS becomes more easily apparent. If his shooting somehow develops and he comes along offensively to decent levels, then we have a two-way lottery-level talent! But even if it somehow doesn't, then we'd still have a perennial all-defensive lockdown wing forward. Either way, at pick 28 in a mediocre and shallow draft, that's great value for us given our current circumstances man. You see man, I'm very aware of his concerns! The difference between us is that I'm pretty confident he can improve on those concerns well enough to become a significant two-way value to us. You on the other hand don't think it's at all possible, and that's your prerogative. I'm choosing to have faith and be hopeful for a change though and trust my gut on this one! I don't honestly require you to agree with my perspective any more than you need me to agree with yours either. I can still respect your opinions on Dunn even while vehemently disagreeing with your perspective on his outcome. It's easier for me perhaps because my value in Dunn is predicated on his defense he'll bring and anything on the offensive side to me at least is a bonus!

[bwgood77]

Where are my sunglasses?

[lilfishi22]

Again, you are aware that Dunn has elite spatial awareness, is an above-average cutter, and is an underrated playmaker too. Sure he didn't average hardly any assists in his limited role of 13 minutes in his freshman year as a play finisher and athletic dunkers' spot lob threat/rebounder per Tony Bennett. But he also didn't make many if any mistakes in his role either and DID SHOW FLASHES OF ADVANCED court vision and playmaking in the short roll too:
https://www.noceilingsnba.com/p/ryan-dunn-agent-of-chaos (this is a really good breakdown on Dunn you should read if you find some time man)
**Check out the short video breakdowns on Dunns' Awareness (1 and 2) as well as his patience and especially playmaking! I would paste them here, but it won't allow me to, unfortunately.


https://edemirnba.substack.com/p/ryan-dunn-scouting-report

He doesn't make many mistakes because he doesn't have the ball longer than to dunk the damn thing to make a mistake. He had 26 assists all season long (with 28 TO's) and if he was underrated as a passer, I'd think he'd do a little better than that don't you? It's like trying to sell me on DA being underrated at getting to the rim despite his 1.4 FTA. I really don't know where you're extrapolating this advance court vision from? Like are thse passes so crazy that only he could see it and make that pass? I don't think so. Perhaps he just has decent court vision and has made a few fundamental passes but that doesn't mean he somehow has advance court vision. There's just far too little offensively to go on and with any consistency even at the college level to say he's anymore than a run and dunk guy or dunker spot guy. And most scouting reports can be summarised by that (while also giving the highest of praise to his elite defense).

I WANT to like this guy because he's a Phoenix Sun player now. I've been watching more and more tape/scouting videos/scouting reports trying to see if there's actually something I'm not seeing but the way you're selling him like he's all these things that he never showed with any consistency in college makes me feel like you're straight up selling snake oil.

He's coming in as one of the worst offensive players in a while (for your sake, I'll say incomplete) and that's just what it is. He can improve sure but don't make it sound like he's all these things that he was never allowed to show. I've said this so many times when it comes to talent, talent will shine through regardless of coaching, scheme, or roster constructions. I can see the defensive talent, it's unreal we have a guy like that on the team but offensively, he sucks and may not play more than 20mpg because of that. And it's just what it is when you're picking dudes at the end of the 1st round. I believe and can see 100% of what you're saying defensively but offensively, even at my most optimistic, I can't even meet you 1/4 of the way.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He doesn't make many mistakes because he doesn't have the ball longer than to dunk the damn thing to make a mistake. He had 26 assists all season long (with 28 TO's) and if he was underrated as a passer, I'd think he'd do a little better than that don't you? It's like trying to sell me on DA being underrated at getting to the rim despite his 1.4 FTA. I really don't know where you're extrapolating this advance court vision from? Like are thse passes so crazy that only he could see it and make that pass? I don't think so. Perhaps he just has decent court vision and has made a few fundamental passes but that doesn't mean he somehow has advance court vision. There's just far too little offensively to go on and with any consistency even at the college level to say he's anymore than a run and dunk guy or dunker spot guy. And most scouting reports can be summarised by that (while also giving the highest of praise to his elite defense).

- He's only played around 11-13 minutes a game in his first season for them, and his specified role was not in any way as a primary playmaker for them at all, AND if you happened to read the articles that I've already shared, and the direct quotes too, some from Dunns' coach Tony Bennet himself, you'd see the context of Dunns' very limited role, minutes and available opportunities in Virginia. His own coach stated his role was specifically to be a play finisher, lob threat, and defensive specialist. And again in very limited minutes too, So it's not like he'd have much opportunity to have the ball often enough to make frequent plays dribbling, passing, or otherwise man. H was asked to play a very specific role by his coach, and he did that perfectly and unselfishly too. Maybe if he was given more time in an expanded role beyond just a play finisher, rebound, lob threat, and defensive specialist, you'd be seeing more examples of his playmaking, ball movement, and other attributes. The point is that this kid showed "flashes" of auxiliary skills, and playmaking potential despite being constrained to a very limited role and very limited playing time that didn't really allow for him to advance his personal development to other areas of his game per the instructed role by Tony Bennett himself. I get that Dunn in total only had 26 assists and two more turnovers than his total assists which still speaks to his potential as a playmaker despite those inhibiting factors he dealt with. If nothing else, it speaks to his selflessness and willingness to sacrifice for the betterment of the team over his personal growth and interests in promoting himself.

https://www.noceilingsnba.com/p/ryan-dunn-agent-of-chaos
Check this draft profile report on Dunn and look at a few things starting with the minutes in 2023 (his freshman season) and tell me how much improvement you'd reasonably expect a walk-on prospect to be showing while playing only around 12 minutes per game??? And in a very specific role wherein he spent the vast majority of those 12 minutes as a play finisher around the rim as a lob threat, rebounder, and defensive specialist as stated by his coach Tony Bennett himself who lauded Dunn for his willingness to sacrifice for the team BECAUSE they lacked size and athleticism on that roster. Yet even with very limited minutes, in a very limited contained role, and playing for one of the slowest-paced teams with one of the lowest possession rates per game, Dunn was still able to impact the game outside of his role as a supplemental playmaker that made quick reads "on the fly" and in the short roll while limiting errors despite his very limited experience in his first season, or any semblance of significant playing time. And really all you have to do man to see clear evidence of his playmaking ability and other attributes that I've promoted or (sold as value factors) is to look at the link I provided that has detailed information and even has short video breakdowns of these specific additional attributes I've spoke about. Also once you look at the variance in minutes, also notice his improvement in statistical production, FG%, and FT % at almost 70% when his minutes actually increased and he actually got to start (play in a more expanded role with more opportunities.


Also, even the best and most renowned playmakers/passers in the game have had stretches or periods of time in which they either struggled or for whatever reason registered more turnovers than assists but were still considered solid or great passers/playmakers possessing advanced court vision and/or underrated passing. Not all passes need to be flashy, fancy, or outlier crazy for a player to be considered to show instances of having advanced court vision man! Many of the best passers in the game also use fundamental or basic passes in their games too. Advanced court vision by definition and consensus understanding of the term is the ability to see the court and things developing on the court even if not in direct view. Now Dunn has indeed shown flashes of this with his being able to make quick decisive reads in motion while drawing the defenders and making effective passes without defenders anticipating the passes consistently. Your small sample season total assist/To example is not really an accurate correlative example of his playmaking ability or potential because it's cumulative and even really skilled players can have outlier bad games at certain aspects (passing or other metrics) but that doesn't always accurately represent their respective abilities nearly as much as per game because game dynamics can fluctuate and skew numbers too.


At worst, he's currently neutral as a very limited-usage playmaker playing a supplemental playmaking role in this context outside of his normal role yet still making quick reads, fundamental effective passes on the move and quickly moving the ball for a 12-minute-per-game first-year player! I'm not really sure what you're expecting beyond what he's showing considering those limitations man?? But maybe with an expanded role towards greater development of those other attributes, you'll see the growth you're looking for but not currently seeing. And while you're absolutely right when you say that "there's far too little offensively to go on with any consistency at the college level" " what you're saying that only further validates the context of my point around him getting very limited minutes, opportunities, etc to even reasonably have a chance to properly develop at Virginia and in there system and show the full range of what he's capable of. But then also saying that he's not likely anything more than a run-and-dunk guy or just a dunkers' spot guy is honestly incredibly dismissive and not at all objective considering all the reports, information, video clips, etc that we have to go off of already and also not equitably considering the clear inhibiting factors involved such as the very limited opportunities no longer present that potentially limited his growth, and development arch, and even the simple fact that really no 21 yr olds are finished products at that age!!

I WANT to like this guy because he's a Phoenix Sun player now. I've been watching more and more tape/scouting videos/scouting reports trying to see if there's actually something I'm not seeing but the way you're selling him like he's all these things that he never showed with any consistency in college makes me feel like you're straight up selling snake oil.

- I get that you and some others may not be able to see what I'm seeing, Or for that matter what many of the draft experts, professional scouts, lifelong NBA experts, and pundits or even some NBA front offices spoke to from his workouts. Ultimately people are too often limited by their opinions and unable to see beyond the obvious, or only able rally to see surface value in most things. It's just the way it is sometimes, but socially in basketball wherein values are highly scalable and often "eye of the beholder" situations. But to say that I'm selling him in a way that he's all of these things that he's never shown is honestly BS man and disingenuous. I've only promoted attributes that have already been documented either by professional scouts and college basketball experts who do this for a living and have much better resources, opportunities, and inside information/ knowledge than either you or I have at our disposal. The things that I've "sold" are cited directly from the articles that I've shared with BOTH you and BWGood in my previous posts regarding his draft profile assessments, with video clip breakdowns and really all the info you could apply to make an informed assessment. Beyond that, please tell me exactly what I've been selling about Dunn that is a factual impossibility for him to accomplish/ improve upon to achieve certain goals (outside of personal bias perspectives)?

You keep speaking to showing no consistency in college man while ignoring the pertinent context that I've shared relating to this very inconsistency that you speak of. Yet even by a small measure, I've shown evidence of measurable improvement (via the Tyler Rucker draft report linked above) that Dunn achieved statistically and in percentage for his FG% scoring metrics and FT % metrics as a direct result of simply getting more playing time and increased opportunities in a starting role. Is that not at all a relevant consideration towards my argument for his potential improvement? Please just go to the link above (Ryan Dunn - agent of Chaos) and briefly peruse the breakdown and empirical data shared as well as the very brief video clip breakdowns to hopefully see instances of "what I'm selling" And if you're still not convinced, then just tell me you're not buying my snake oil man! But please know that it has new wonderful ingredients in it though! like chalk, arsenic, bits of red flannel for whatever Ails you ...LOL

He's coming in as one of the worst offensive players in a while (for your sake, I'll say incomplete) and that's just what it is. He can improve sure but don't make it sound like he's all these things that he was never allowed to show. I've said this so many times when it comes to talent, talent will shine through regardless of coaching, scheme, or roster constructions. I can see the defensive talent, it's unreal we have a guy like that on the team but offensively, he sucks and may not play more than 20mpg because of that. And it's just what it is when you're picking dudes at the end of the 1st round. I believe and can see 100% of what you're saying defensively but offensively, even at my most optimistic, I can't even meet you 1/4 of the way.

- Well yeah man! I've already acknowledged his offensive/ shooting concerns as significant! And even agreed that he'd have significant work to put in in order to become much better on the offensive end. And honestly, you and others have made those concerns beyond well-known to the point of irrational obsession honestly LOL. I mean I'm not sure what the goal is here by constantly arguing the obvious over and over again. It's not going to somehow magically make Dunn disappear and replace him with some other prospect you preferred. It's also not going to somehow improve his weaknesses either by beating the topic into the ground over and over. We all get it man! He's a bad shooter and has a ton of improvement to make offensively, and you clearly don't think he'll be a positive player for us nor do you think he'll get better or be an impact player for us and you're assessment is that he'll be a net negative or at best a neutral factor offensively to where he'll be unplayable. Am I supposed to suddenly dislike him because of his faults/ weaknesses? Am I and the rest of us that actually like and endorse the pick supposed to crucify the kid for being a ready-made or finished product? At 21 freaking years old...LOL But really man! just answer me two quick things k:

1- Is our team weak offensively to where scoring/ shooting is somehow a critical issue for us even though we have 3 very elite HOF-level nuclear-scoring weapons in Beal, Booker, and Durant, And because of that, weren't we also known as an elite offensive team?

2- Did the Suns go into the draft targeting Dunn with the idea that he'd need to be some significant impactful offensive weapon for u??

............Or maybe just maybe do you think it's possible that they targeted him because they recognized that our roster lacked any LEGITIMATE lockdown defender aside from a 36-year-old KD? And they had an epiphany that it might be somewhat unreasonable to put that much pressure of being a defensive anchor on a 36-year-old Durant while simultaneously asking him to still close games for us too at an elite level! And maybe just maybe from that consideration, they chose to target two strong defensive prospects so they could free up Booker, Kd, and even Beal to not have to carry that much defensive pressure, which would allow them to focus more on being even more offensively elite without as much exhaustion from overexerting themselves on the defensive end also trying to operate as our shutdown defenders. It's in comprehending this that Dunns' significant value to us EVEN ASIDE FROM OFFENSIVE CONCERNS becomes more easily apparent. If his shooting somehow develops and he comes along offensively to decent levels, then we have a two-way lottery-level talent! But even if it somehow doesn't, then we'd still have a perennial all-defensive lockdown wing forward. Either way, at pick 28 in a mediocre and shallow draft, that's great value for us given our current circumstances man. You see man, I'm very aware of his concerns! The difference between us is that I'm pretty confident he can improve on those concerns well enough to become a significant two-way value to us. You on the other hand don't think it's at all possible, and that's your prerogative. I'm choosing to have faith and be hopeful for a change though and trust my gut on this one! I don't honestly require you to agree with my perspective any more than you need me to agree with yours either. I can still respect your opinions on Dunn even while vehemently disagreeing with your perspective on his outcome. It's easier for me perhaps because my value in Dunn is predicated on his defense he'll bring and anything on the offensive side to me at least is a bonus!

Making a nice pass or finding the open man a few times doesn't mean you have flashes of some advance skill, it means he read the play and made a nice pass, it's crazy to extrapolate that out to flashes of advance skill. Hitting 2 of 4 from 3 in one game doesn't mean he has flashes of 3PT shooting ability. It means he had a hot game where he hit 3s.

We're not going anywhere with this because I don't see what you're seeing and vice versa, so let's just leave it at this and hope Dunn is better than his draft position

[lilfishi22]

That was the problem last season.

Teams can load up on the big 3 and there's no outlet because you got Nurk and whoever bricking shots and the defense is all too happy to let the bench or anyone besides the big 3 struggle to score.

He doesn't need to be a big time scorer but he does need to hit his free throws and be somewhat of a threat to hit a 3 otherwise he's a bigger version of Okogie who for all his offensive limitations at this point is still a better shooter than Dunn.

I actually don't totally agree defense was THE problem. It was an issue yes but we were playing far better defense than we have any right to be playing considering the roster. Like we ended up at #13 (top half of the league) in defense with our best defender being 35yo KD. Our defense, for the most part, held up and was better than it should've been.

Our biggest problem was our mess of an offense. With the talent and shooting we had, we should've been at least top 5 but we never got it together. Now a lot of that is likely scheme related (wth was Vogel even running most nights?) and hopefully Bud can maximise the this roster but adding essentially two high level defenders with not much offense (if any) will obviously help with our defense but doesn't do a thing for our offense.

The team option on Roddy had already been picked up so he's back, we still have Little and it seems like Okogie may be coming back but we potentially have 4 wings (w/ Dunn) who can't shoot and effectively spread the floor. We're still missing a PG and I don't really think any vet min level PG is going to significantly move the needle (maybe Lowry?). We better hope Bridges can at least be a contributor from a shooting standpoint

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

Dunn already putting in the work which is good to see! He has a long way to go for sure, But a big part of it is effort, willingness to work at it and determination to get better! Love the relentless work ethic!

[Ghost of Kleine]

He doesn't make many mistakes because he doesn't have the ball longer than to dunk the damn thing to make a mistake. He had 26 assists all season long (with 28 TO's) and if he was underrated as a passer, I'd think he'd do a little better than that don't you? It's like trying to sell me on DA being underrated at getting to the rim despite his 1.4 FTA. I really don't know where you're extrapolating this advance court vision from? Like are thse passes so crazy that only he could see it and make that pass? I don't think so. Perhaps he just has decent court vision and has made a few fundamental passes but that doesn't mean he somehow has advance court vision. There's just far too little offensively to go on and with any consistency even at the college level to say he's anymore than a run and dunk guy or dunker spot guy. And most scouting reports can be summarised by that (while also giving the highest of praise to his elite defense).

I WANT to like this guy because he's a Phoenix Sun player now. I've been watching more and more tape/scouting videos/scouting reports trying to see if there's actually something I'm not seeing but the way you're selling him like he's all these things that he never showed with any consistency in college makes me feel like you're straight up selling snake oil.

He's coming in as one of the worst offensive players in a while (for your sake, I'll say incomplete) and that's just what it is. He can improve sure but don't make it sound like he's all these things that he was never allowed to show. I've said this so many times when it comes to talent, talent will shine through regardless of coaching, scheme, or roster constructions. I can see the defensive talent, it's unreal we have a guy like that on the team but offensively, he sucks and may not play more than 20mpg because of that. And it's just what it is when you're picking dudes at the end of the 1st round. I believe and can see 100% of what you're saying defensively but offensively, even at my most optimistic, I can't even meet you 1/4 of the way.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He doesn't make many mistakes because he doesn't have the ball longer than to dunk the damn thing to make a mistake. He had 26 assists all season long (with 28 TO's) and if he was underrated as a passer, I'd think he'd do a little better than that don't you? It's like trying to sell me on DA being underrated at getting to the rim despite his 1.4 FTA. I really don't know where you're extrapolating this advance court vision from? Like are thse passes so crazy that only he could see it and make that pass? I don't think so. Perhaps he just has decent court vision and has made a few fundamental passes but that doesn't mean he somehow has advance court vision. There's just far too little offensively to go on and with any consistency even at the college level to say he's anymore than a run and dunk guy or dunker spot guy. And most scouting reports can be summarised by that (while also giving the highest of praise to his elite defense).

- He's only played around 11-13 minutes a game in his first season for them, and his specified role was not in any way as a primary playmaker for them at all, AND if you happened to read the articles that I've already shared, and the direct quotes too, some from Dunns' coach Tony Bennet himself, you'd see the context of Dunns' very limited role, minutes and available opportunities in Virginia. His own coach stated his role was specifically to be a play finisher, lob threat, and defensive specialist. And again in very limited minutes too, So it's not like he'd have much opportunity to have the ball often enough to make frequent plays dribbling, passing, or otherwise man. H was asked to play a very specific role by his coach, and he did that perfectly and unselfishly too. Maybe if he was given more time in an expanded role beyond just a play finisher, rebound, lob threat, and defensive specialist, you'd be seeing more examples of his playmaking, ball movement, and other attributes. The point is that this kid showed "flashes" of auxiliary skills, and playmaking potential despite being constrained to a very limited role and very limited playing time that didn't really allow for him to advance his personal development to other areas of his game per the instructed role by Tony Bennett himself. I get that Dunn in total only had 26 assists and two more turnovers than his total assists which still speaks to his potential as a playmaker despite those inhibiting factors he dealt with. If nothing else, it speaks to his selflessness and willingness to sacrifice for the betterment of the team over his personal growth and interests in promoting himself.

https://www.noceilingsnba.com/p/ryan-dunn-agent-of-chaos
Check this draft profile report on Dunn and look at a few things starting with the minutes in 2023 (his freshman season) and tell me how much improvement you'd reasonably expect a walk-on prospect to be showing while playing only around 12 minutes per game??? And in a very specific role wherein he spent the vast majority of those 12 minutes as a play finisher around the rim as a lob threat, rebounder, and defensive specialist as stated by his coach Tony Bennett himself who lauded Dunn for his willingness to sacrifice for the team BECAUSE they lacked size and athleticism on that roster. Yet even with very limited minutes, in a very limited contained role, and playing for one of the slowest-paced teams with one of the lowest possession rates per game, Dunn was still able to impact the game outside of his role as a supplemental playmaker that made quick reads "on the fly" and in the short roll while limiting errors despite his very limited experience in his first season, or any semblance of significant playing time. And really all you have to do man to see clear evidence of his playmaking ability and other attributes that I've promoted or (sold as value factors) is to look at the link I provided that has detailed information and even has short video breakdowns of these specific additional attributes I've spoke about. Also once you look at the variance in minutes, also notice his improvement in statistical production, FG%, and FT % at almost 70% when his minutes actually increased and he actually got to start (play in a more expanded role with more opportunities.


Also, even the best and most renowned playmakers/passers in the game have had stretches or periods of time in which they either struggled or for whatever reason registered more turnovers than assists but were still considered solid or great passers/playmakers possessing advanced court vision and/or underrated passing. Not all passes need to be flashy, fancy, or outlier crazy for a player to be considered to show instances of having advanced court vision man! Many of the best passers in the game also use fundamental or basic passes in their games too. Advanced court vision by definition and consensus understanding of the term is the ability to see the court and things developing on the court even if not in direct view. Now Dunn has indeed shown flashes of this with his being able to make quick decisive reads in motion while drawing the defenders and making effective passes without defenders anticipating the passes consistently. Your small sample season total assist/To example is not really an accurate correlative example of his playmaking ability or potential because it's cumulative and even really skilled players can have outlier bad games at certain aspects (passing or other metrics) but that doesn't always accurately represent their respective abilities nearly as much as per game because game dynamics can fluctuate and skew numbers too.


At worst, he's currently neutral as a very limited-usage playmaker playing a supplemental playmaking role in this context outside of his normal role yet still making quick reads, fundamental effective passes on the move and quickly moving the ball for a 12-minute-per-game first-year player! I'm not really sure what you're expecting beyond what he's showing considering those limitations man?? But maybe with an expanded role towards greater development of those other attributes, you'll see the growth you're looking for but not currently seeing. And while you're absolutely right when you say that "there's far too little offensively to go on with any consistency at the college level" " what you're saying that only further validates the context of my point around him getting very limited minutes, opportunities, etc to even reasonably have a chance to properly develop at Virginia and in there system and show the full range of what he's capable of. But then also saying that he's not likely anything more than a run-and-dunk guy or just a dunkers' spot guy is honestly incredibly dismissive and not at all objective considering all the reports, information, video clips, etc that we have to go off of already and also not equitably considering the clear inhibiting factors involved such as the very limited opportunities no longer present that potentially limited his growth, and development arch, and even the simple fact that really no 21 yr olds are finished products at that age!!

I WANT to like this guy because he's a Phoenix Sun player now. I've been watching more and more tape/scouting videos/scouting reports trying to see if there's actually something I'm not seeing but the way you're selling him like he's all these things that he never showed with any consistency in college makes me feel like you're straight up selling snake oil.

- I get that you and some others may not be able to see what I'm seeing, Or for that matter what many of the draft experts, professional scouts, lifelong NBA experts, and pundits or even some NBA front offices spoke to from his workouts. Ultimately people are too often limited by their opinions and unable to see beyond the obvious, or only able rally to see surface value in most things. It's just the way it is sometimes, but socially in basketball wherein values are highly scalable and often "eye of the beholder" situations. But to say that I'm selling him in a way that he's all of these things that he's never shown is honestly BS man and disingenuous. I've only promoted attributes that have already been documented either by professional scouts and college basketball experts who do this for a living and have much better resources, opportunities, and inside information/ knowledge than either you or I have at our disposal. The things that I've "sold" are cited directly from the articles that I've shared with BOTH you and BWGood in my previous posts regarding his draft profile assessments, with video clip breakdowns and really all the info you could apply to make an informed assessment. Beyond that, please tell me exactly what I've been selling about Dunn that is a factual impossibility for him to accomplish/ improve upon to achieve certain goals (outside of personal bias perspectives)?

You keep speaking to showing no consistency in college man while ignoring the pertinent context that I've shared relating to this very inconsistency that you speak of. Yet even by a small measure, I've shown evidence of measurable improvement (via the Tyler Rucker draft report linked above) that Dunn achieved statistically and in percentage for his FG% scoring metrics and FT % metrics as a direct result of simply getting more playing time and increased opportunities in a starting role. Is that not at all a relevant consideration towards my argument for his potential improvement? Please just go to the link above (Ryan Dunn - agent of Chaos) and briefly peruse the breakdown and empirical data shared as well as the very brief video clip breakdowns to hopefully see instances of "what I'm selling" And if you're still not convinced, then just tell me you're not buying my snake oil man! But please know that it has new wonderful ingredients in it though! like chalk, arsenic, bits of red flannel for whatever Ails you ...LOL

He's coming in as one of the worst offensive players in a while (for your sake, I'll say incomplete) and that's just what it is. He can improve sure but don't make it sound like he's all these things that he was never allowed to show. I've said this so many times when it comes to talent, talent will shine through regardless of coaching, scheme, or roster constructions. I can see the defensive talent, it's unreal we have a guy like that on the team but offensively, he sucks and may not play more than 20mpg because of that. And it's just what it is when you're picking dudes at the end of the 1st round. I believe and can see 100% of what you're saying defensively but offensively, even at my most optimistic, I can't even meet you 1/4 of the way.

- Well yeah man! I've already acknowledged his offensive/ shooting concerns as significant! And even agreed that he'd have significant work to put in in order to become much better on the offensive end. And honestly, you and others have made those concerns beyond well-known to the point of irrational obsession honestly LOL. I mean I'm not sure what the goal is here by constantly arguing the obvious over and over again. It's not going to somehow magically make Dunn disappear and replace him with some other prospect you preferred. It's also not going to somehow improve his weaknesses either by beating the topic into the ground over and over. We all get it man! He's a bad shooter and has a ton of improvement to make offensively, and you clearly don't think he'll be a positive player for us nor do you think he'll get better or be an impact player for us and you're assessment is that he'll be a net negative or at best a neutral factor offensively to where he'll be unplayable. Am I supposed to suddenly dislike him because of his faults/ weaknesses? Am I and the rest of us that actually like and endorse the pick supposed to crucify the kid for being a ready-made or finished product? At 21 freaking years old...LOL But really man! just answer me two quick things k:

1- Is our team weak offensively to where scoring/ shooting is somehow a critical issue for us even though we have 3 very elite HOF-level nuclear-scoring weapons in Beal, Booker, and Durant, And because of that, weren't we also known as an elite offensive team?

2- Did the Suns go into the draft targeting Dunn with the idea that he'd need to be some significant impactful offensive weapon for u??

............Or maybe just maybe do you think it's possible that they targeted him because they recognized that our roster lacked any LEGITIMATE lockdown defender aside from a 36-year-old KD? And they had an epiphany that it might be somewhat unreasonable to put that much pressure of being a defensive anchor on a 36-year-old Durant while simultaneously asking him to still close games for us too at an elite level! And maybe just maybe from that consideration, they chose to target two strong defensive prospects so they could free up Booker, Kd, and even Beal to not have to carry that much defensive pressure, which would allow them to focus more on being even more offensively elite without as much exhaustion from overexerting themselves on the defensive end also trying to operate as our shutdown defenders. It's in comprehending this that Dunns' significant value to us EVEN ASIDE FROM OFFENSIVE CONCERNS becomes more easily apparent. If his shooting somehow develops and he comes along offensively to decent levels, then we have a two-way lottery-level talent! But even if it somehow doesn't, then we'd still have a perennial all-defensive lockdown wing forward. Either way, at pick 28 in a mediocre and shallow draft, that's great value for us given our current circumstances man. You see man, I'm very aware of his concerns! The difference between us is that I'm pretty confident he can improve on those concerns well enough to become a significant two-way value to us. You on the other hand don't think it's at all possible, and that's your prerogative. I'm choosing to have faith and be hopeful for a change though and trust my gut on this one! I don't honestly require you to agree with my perspective any more than you need me to agree with yours either. I can still respect your opinions on Dunn even while vehemently disagreeing with your perspective on his outcome. It's easier for me perhaps because my value in Dunn is predicated on his defense he'll bring and anything on the offensive side to me at least is a bonus!

Making a nice pass or finding the open man a few times doesn't mean you have flashes of some advance skill, it means he read the play and made a nice pass, it's crazy to extrapolate that out to flashes of advance skill. Hitting 2 of 4 from 3 in one game doesn't mean he has flashes of 3PT shooting ability. It means he had a hot game where he hit 3s.

We're not going anywhere with this because I don't see what you're seeing and vice versa, so let's just leave it at this and hope Dunn is better than his draft position

Finally something we can agree upon!

[lilfishi22]

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- He's only played around 11-13 minutes a game in his first season for them, and his specified role was not in any way as a primary playmaker for them at all, AND if you happened to read the articles that I've already shared, and the direct quotes too, some from Dunns' coach Tony Bennet himself, you'd see the context of Dunns' very limited role, minutes and available opportunities in Virginia. His own coach stated his role was specifically to be a play finisher, lob threat, and defensive specialist. And again in very limited minutes too, So it's not like he'd have much opportunity to have the ball often enough to make frequent plays dribbling, passing, or otherwise man. H was asked to play a very specific role by his coach, and he did that perfectly and unselfishly too. Maybe if he was given more time in an expanded role beyond just a play finisher, rebound, lob threat, and defensive specialist, you'd be seeing more examples of his playmaking, ball movement, and other attributes. The point is that this kid showed "flashes" of auxiliary skills, and playmaking potential despite being constrained to a very limited role and very limited playing time that didn't really allow for him to advance his personal development to other areas of his game per the instructed role by Tony Bennett himself. I get that Dunn in total only had 26 assists and two more turnovers than his total assists which still speaks to his potential as a playmaker despite those inhibiting factors he dealt with. If nothing else, it speaks to his selflessness and willingness to sacrifice for the betterment of the team over his personal growth and interests in promoting himself.

https://www.noceilingsnba.com/p/ryan-dunn-agent-of-chaos
Check this draft profile report on Dunn and look at a few things starting with the minutes in 2023 (his freshman season) and tell me how much improvement you'd reasonably expect a walk-on prospect to be showing while playing only around 12 minutes per game??? And in a very specific role wherein he spent the vast majority of those 12 minutes as a play finisher around the rim as a lob threat, rebounder, and defensive specialist as stated by his coach Tony Bennett himself who lauded Dunn for his willingness to sacrifice for the team BECAUSE they lacked size and athleticism on that roster. Yet even with very limited minutes, in a very limited contained role, and playing for one of the slowest-paced teams with one of the lowest possession rates per game, Dunn was still able to impact the game outside of his role as a supplemental playmaker that made quick reads "on the fly" and in the short roll while limiting errors despite his very limited experience in his first season, or any semblance of significant playing time. And really all you have to do man to see clear evidence of his playmaking ability and other attributes that I've promoted or (sold as value factors) is to look at the link I provided that has detailed information and even has short video breakdowns of these specific additional attributes I've spoke about. Also once you look at the variance in minutes, also notice his improvement in statistical production, FG%, and FT % at almost 70% when his minutes actually increased and he actually got to start (play in a more expanded role with more opportunities.


Also, even the best and most renowned playmakers/passers in the game have had stretches or periods of time in which they either struggled or for whatever reason registered more turnovers than assists but were still considered solid or great passers/playmakers possessing advanced court vision and/or underrated passing. Not all passes need to be flashy, fancy, or outlier crazy for a player to be considered to show instances of having advanced court vision man! Many of the best passers in the game also use fundamental or basic passes in their games too. Advanced court vision by definition and consensus understanding of the term is the ability to see the court and things developing on the court even if not in direct view. Now Dunn has indeed shown flashes of this with his being able to make quick decisive reads in motion while drawing the defenders and making effective passes without defenders anticipating the passes consistently. Your small sample season total assist/To example is not really an accurate correlative example of his playmaking ability or potential because it's cumulative and even really skilled players can have outlier bad games at certain aspects (passing or other metrics) but that doesn't always accurately represent their respective abilities nearly as much as per game because game dynamics can fluctuate and skew numbers too.


At worst, he's currently neutral as a very limited-usage playmaker playing a supplemental playmaking role in this context outside of his normal role yet still making quick reads, fundamental effective passes on the move and quickly moving the ball for a 12-minute-per-game first-year player! I'm not really sure what you're expecting beyond what he's showing considering those limitations man?? But maybe with an expanded role towards greater development of those other attributes, you'll see the growth you're looking for but not currently seeing. And while you're absolutely right when you say that "there's far too little offensively to go on with any consistency at the college level" " what you're saying that only further validates the context of my point around him getting very limited minutes, opportunities, etc to even reasonably have a chance to properly develop at Virginia and in there system and show the full range of what he's capable of. But then also saying that he's not likely anything more than a run-and-dunk guy or just a dunkers' spot guy is honestly incredibly dismissive and not at all objective considering all the reports, information, video clips, etc that we have to go off of already and also not equitably considering the clear inhibiting factors involved such as the very limited opportunities no longer present that potentially limited his growth, and development arch, and even the simple fact that really no 21 yr olds are finished products at that age!!



- I get that you and some others may not be able to see what I'm seeing, Or for that matter what many of the draft experts, professional scouts, lifelong NBA experts, and pundits or even some NBA front offices spoke to from his workouts. Ultimately people are too often limited by their opinions and unable to see beyond the obvious, or only able rally to see surface value in most things. It's just the way it is sometimes, but socially in basketball wherein values are highly scalable and often "eye of the beholder" situations. But to say that I'm selling him in a way that he's all of these things that he's never shown is honestly BS man and disingenuous. I've only promoted attributes that have already been documented either by professional scouts and college basketball experts who do this for a living and have much better resources, opportunities, and inside information/ knowledge than either you or I have at our disposal. The things that I've "sold" are cited directly from the articles that I've shared with BOTH you and BWGood in my previous posts regarding his draft profile assessments, with video clip breakdowns and really all the info you could apply to make an informed assessment. Beyond that, please tell me exactly what I've been selling about Dunn that is a factual impossibility for him to accomplish/ improve upon to achieve certain goals (outside of personal bias perspectives)?

You keep speaking to showing no consistency in college man while ignoring the pertinent context that I've shared relating to this very inconsistency that you speak of. Yet even by a small measure, I've shown evidence of measurable improvement (via the Tyler Rucker draft report linked above) that Dunn achieved statistically and in percentage for his FG% scoring metrics and FT % metrics as a direct result of simply getting more playing time and increased opportunities in a starting role. Is that not at all a relevant consideration towards my argument for his potential improvement? Please just go to the link above (Ryan Dunn - agent of Chaos) and briefly peruse the breakdown and empirical data shared as well as the very brief video clip breakdowns to hopefully see instances of "what I'm selling" And if you're still not convinced, then just tell me you're not buying my snake oil man! But please know that it has new wonderful ingredients in it though! like chalk, arsenic, bits of red flannel for whatever Ails you ...LOL




- Well yeah man! I've already acknowledged his offensive/ shooting concerns as significant! And even agreed that he'd have significant work to put in in order to become much better on the offensive end. And honestly, you and others have made those concerns beyond well-known to the point of irrational obsession honestly LOL. I mean I'm not sure what the goal is here by constantly arguing the obvious over and over again. It's not going to somehow magically make Dunn disappear and replace him with some other prospect you preferred. It's also not going to somehow improve his weaknesses either by beating the topic into the ground over and over. We all get it man! He's a bad shooter and has a ton of improvement to make offensively, and you clearly don't think he'll be a positive player for us nor do you think he'll get better or be an impact player for us and you're assessment is that he'll be a net negative or at best a neutral factor offensively to where he'll be unplayable. Am I supposed to suddenly dislike him because of his faults/ weaknesses? Am I and the rest of us that actually like and endorse the pick supposed to crucify the kid for being a ready-made or finished product? At 21 freaking years old...LOL But really man! just answer me two quick things k:

1- Is our team weak offensively to where scoring/ shooting is somehow a critical issue for us even though we have 3 very elite HOF-level nuclear-scoring weapons in Beal, Booker, and Durant, And because of that, weren't we also known as an elite offensive team?

2- Did the Suns go into the draft targeting Dunn with the idea that he'd need to be some significant impactful offensive weapon for u??

............Or maybe just maybe do you think it's possible that they targeted him because they recognized that our roster lacked any LEGITIMATE lockdown defender aside from a 36-year-old KD? And they had an epiphany that it might be somewhat unreasonable to put that much pressure of being a defensive anchor on a 36-year-old Durant while simultaneously asking him to still close games for us too at an elite level! And maybe just maybe from that consideration, they chose to target two strong defensive prospects so they could free up Booker, Kd, and even Beal to not have to carry that much defensive pressure, which would allow them to focus more on being even more offensively elite without as much exhaustion from overexerting themselves on the defensive end also trying to operate as our shutdown defenders. It's in comprehending this that Dunns' significant value to us EVEN ASIDE FROM OFFENSIVE CONCERNS becomes more easily apparent. If his shooting somehow develops and he comes along offensively to decent levels, then we have a two-way lottery-level talent! But even if it somehow doesn't, then we'd still have a perennial all-defensive lockdown wing forward. Either way, at pick 28 in a mediocre and shallow draft, that's great value for us given our current circumstances man. You see man, I'm very aware of his concerns! The difference between us is that I'm pretty confident he can improve on those concerns well enough to become a significant two-way value to us. You on the other hand don't think it's at all possible, and that's your prerogative. I'm choosing to have faith and be hopeful for a change though and trust my gut on this one! I don't honestly require you to agree with my perspective any more than you need me to agree with yours either. I can still respect your opinions on Dunn even while vehemently disagreeing with your perspective on his outcome. It's easier for me perhaps because my value in Dunn is predicated on his defense he'll bring and anything on the offensive side to me at least is a bonus!

Making a nice pass or finding the open man a few times doesn't mean you have flashes of some advance skill, it means he read the play and made a nice pass, it's crazy to extrapolate that out to flashes of advance skill. Hitting 2 of 4 from 3 in one game doesn't mean he has flashes of 3PT shooting ability. It means he had a hot game where he hit 3s.

We're not going anywhere with this because I don't see what you're seeing and vice versa, so let's just leave it at this and hope Dunn is better than his draft position

Finally something we can agree upon!

[Crives]

Obviously the offense is nowhere the same, but I wonder how good Dunns defense is compared to AD.. if we can get 80-90% of AD’s defense from Dunn… oh boy

[Saberestar]

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[Kyler Murray]

For what it's worth, his shot doesn't seem broken at all, and from what we're hearing the work ethic is there, so I'm optimistic.

[lilfishi22]

Obviously the offense is nowhere the same, but I wonder how good Dunns defense is compared to AD.. if we can get 80-90% of AD’s defense from Dunn… oh boy

Anthony Davis AD?

[Crives]

Obviously the offense is nowhere the same, but I wonder how good Dunns defense is compared to AD.. if we can get 80-90% of AD’s defense from Dunn… oh boy

Anthony Davis AD?

Yes.. listening to draft guys like Vecenie say things like Dunns the best defender they have evaluated, makes me wonder how he compares to some of the elite defensive players in college.

[lilfishi22]

Obviously the offense is nowhere the same, but I wonder how good Dunns defense is compared to AD.. if we can get 80-90% of AD’s defense from Dunn… oh boy

Anthony Davis AD?

Yes.. listening to draft guys like Vecenie say things like Dunns the best defender they have evaluated, makes me wonder how he compares to some of the elite defensive players in college.

AD is a true big man (even if a little skinny) and big men generally have an outsized impact on defense so it's probably not a good comp. Most DPOY level guys are generally big men historically with a few Kawhi, Smart and Artest thrown in there. AD's like legit 6-10, 6-11 with a 7-6 wingspan and averaged almost 5blks a game in college. By every defensive metric I've seen, he's a decent margin better than Dunn and I believe won pretty much every defensive (and a good number of overall) awards that could be won. AD is a truly generational defensive talent first and foremost. I wouldn't put those two names in the same sentence.

It's also really hard to have that kind of impact if you're not playing at least 30mpg and unless Dunn becomes a passable offensive player, it'll be hard to play him that many minutes.

[RedIndian]

AD is not a good comparison for Dunn at all. I think if you want to hope what his defense looks like, the right player comp is Jonathan Isaac. Isaac is slightly bigger, but I think Dunn is the better athlete. Isaac had a 15-20 min role in Orlando, and the Magic defense with him on the floor was absurdly good with Isaac being able to switch 1-5 on everyone except the true bigs. Didn't get to play more than that because his offense is limited, and of course, his injury history. But if Dunn can give us something like that, it'd be a big win.

[Saberestar]

Ryan Dunn has signed his rookie scale contract with the Suns, according to the NBA transactions log.

The 28th pick in last week’s draft, Dunn will make $2,530,800 in his first season, assuming the usual 120% of the rookie scale figure given out by most teams to first-rounders. He’s due to make $12,998,353 during his first four years in the NBA.

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