2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part II

[Saberestar]

Nick Richards is just a younger version of Plumlee no?

No, he isn't that good.

Plumlee at 27/28 years old would have been an amazing addition.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Deleted. What was the tweet?

The top part was just an image of Jimmy Butler.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Beal had Denver on his list of the 4 teams that he'd be willing to waive his trade clause for.
https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/report_reveals_three_teams_bradley_beal_would_waive_his_no_trade_clause_for/s1_127_41529908

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The real question would be the framework of that trade with Denver and Miami! Dunn and Oso better not be involved if it were to happen.

Let's hope not cause if those are his teams, he's staying put. Miami doesn't want him and Ish wouldn't trade inner division to LAL or to conf rival Denver.

Sigh, less than a month now. Come on, Feb 7th.

I think Gambo knows more stuff than he used to, but no one knows exactly who Beal would waive his no trade clause for because they haven't approached him. He would need to know a lot more about the exact situation he would going to, etc.

I didn't read the article, but if those were 3 he would have while he was with Washington, that makes sense then.

But my guess is if he does waive it, it won't be until the offseason.

That's true! But I think they're currently exploring and tiering all of their best options before actually approaching him. And they're likely confirming mutual interest and willingness to take Beal and value exchange to identify the best options out of the teams he's stated he'd be willing to accept. And then when they find a match, they'll likely approach him.

[dremill24]

Nobody is going to love the Nurkic money, so the best way to make something work (short of stupidly tossing in their 1st) is to take on bad money in return. To me, thats Williams. Hes already slightly overpaid as is but the value is depressed a lot by the long term injury. Probably still have to give up a 2nd or two but thats the plausible way to make it work with Nurk IMO. Otherwise you just make it easy and use Okogie as filler if you want Richards.

I think Mark Williams or Richards would be fine. They are pretty equal. I think Williams might be slightly better, and he's 4 years younger, but may be more injury prone. Their #s and even mpg the last few years are very similar.

Grant, not Mark

[dremill24]

It is worth noting that Richards isnt that good either lol

[bwgood77]

Nobody is going to love the Nurkic money, so the best way to make something work (short of stupidly tossing in their 1st) is to take on bad money in return. To me, thats Williams. Hes already slightly overpaid as is but the value is depressed a lot by the long term injury. Probably still have to give up a 2nd or two but thats the plausible way to make it work with Nurk IMO. Otherwise you just make it easy and use Okogie as filler if you want Richards.

I think Mark Williams or Richards would be fine. They are pretty equal. I think Williams might be slightly better, and he's 4 years younger, but may be more injury prone. Their #s and even mpg the last few years are very similar.

Grant, not Mark

Oh. Yeah, makes sense I guess.

Ultimately, all of this feels like reshuffling decks on the titanic.

How happy can we get about wins at home vs Atlanta without Jalen Johnson and a win against Utah, when we lose to Charlotte.

I don't think these players we talk about make much difference.

However, Royce I think helps a lot...it allows us to be not quite as small as often, and he was a solid defender and our best 3 pt shooter.

[Saberestar]

It is worth noting that Richards isnt that good either lol

Yeah, Richards is a fine backup C but I can't envision him as a good starting C in the league.

If we finally trade for him I hope we don't waste too many assets.

[TeamTragic]

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Deleted. What was the tweet?

The top part was just an image of Jimmy Butler.

What did it say? Butler/Richards?

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[bwgood77]

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Yeah, sometimes things just don't work out no matter how much you would like them to. I mean, I hate to say it, but I don't think Kate Beckinsale and I will ever end up together.

[bwgood77]

I wonder had we never made the Beal trade, and we were to offer Allen, Royce and Nurkic for Butler, maybe along with swaps we gave for Beal and a few 2nds, if that would get Butler.

We'd have little for depth, but I guess we would have

Jones
Booker
Butler
KD
Plumlee

Morris
Lee
Okogie
Dunn
Oso

This may be where we'd be at this point without the Beal trade and just let Paul/Shamet expire. We might have another MLE type player...some ok guy in the depth that could be here or in the trade.

Or maybe they would want Oso or Dunn and we could keep Royce or Allen.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Yeah, sometimes things just don't work out no matter how much you would like them to. I mean, I hate to say it, but I don't think Kate Beckinsale and I will ever end up together.

Seriously though, I'm much more leaning towards hoping that the Butler trade doesn't actually happen because if it does then it means:

1- We'll have likely given up the very last remaining assets and picks we'd have left for the next decade.
2- We'd also likely be giving up one or both of our only very promising rookies in Dunn and/or Ighodaro. And Butler simply isn't worth giving up all of this!
3- We'd have well over $100 million tied up in two aging 36-year-old players who are at/near the end of their careers in a massive overpay that wouldn't really result in anything more than maybe a 2nd round exit at best! with a monumental collapse imminent and unavoidable within 2 years.
4- We'll have sacrificed our entire future for the next decade just to pander/capitulate to KD's obsession with creating a max contract gentlemen's retirement club here at the expense of our franchise, future, and fanbases' interest.
5- We'll be stuck as a bottom 5 team for the next 10-15 years with absolutely no way to turn things around because our Kendall Roy wanted to treat our franchise like he's playing NBA 2K or something!!

I'd much rather just stick it out with Beal on the bench, fight to make the playoffs, and if KD won't give assurances of extending without Butler, then trade him this summer for the best deal we can get! and retool around Booker and maybe Beal if he stays???

[bwgood77]

Seriously though, I'm much more leaning towards hoping that the Butler trade doesn't actually happen because if it does then it means:

1- We'll have likely given up the very last remaining assets and picks we'd have left for the next decade.
2- We'd also likely be giving up one or both of our only very promising rookies in Dunn and/or Ighodaro. And Butler simply isn't worth giving up all of this!
3- We'd have well over $100 million tied up in two aging 36-year-old players who are at/near the end of their careers in a massive overpay that wouldn't really result in anything more than maybe a 2nd round exit at best! with a monumental collapse imminent and unavoidable within 2 years.
4- We'll have sacrificed our entire future for the next decade just to pander/capitulate to KD's obsession with creating a max contract gentlemen's retirement club here at the expense of our franchise, future, and fanbases' interest.
5- We'll be stuck as a bottom 5 team for the next 10-15 years with absolutely no way to turn things around because our Kendall Roy wanted to treat our franchise like he's playing NBA 2K or something!!

I'd much rather just stick it out with Beal on the bench, fight to make the playoffs, and if KD won't give assurances of extending without Butler, then trade him this summer for the best deal we can get! and retool around Booker and maybe Beal if he stays???

Yeah, the thing is, I think whether or not people want to keep Booker long term, I don't think it bodes well to get him. Because I think two years down the road when Butler is 38 and KD is 39, and they are both probably washed, Book is as good as gone...and the longer we hang onto him, the more his value declines (with fewer years left on his contract). Part of the reason KD got a huge return was he was locked up for 4 years. Booker is locked up for 3 more.

If we get Butler he will get 2 more. We will add one more to KD taking him to 2028, the same year and Book.

Now there could be a chance we gave it those 2 years, or 1 1/2 and at the trade deadline of Butler's last year, we start looking at trading Book at trade deadline 27 or that summer. Maybe KD too if he still has any value, when he is 38 about to turn 39.

But we will have likely given up a pick and will be fighting around the play in for playoffs 25, 26, 27, if we are lucky.

And in reality, fighting for a play in spot, meaning you are around 11th place like we are tied for now, means you are only better than 3-4 teams in your conference. The play ins may have helped tanking some, but it also gives teams a false sense of security. Making the play in (which is basically the postseason) and being 10th best in your conference is obviously not any short of achievement, but they are rewarding you for it with at least one postseason game.

[Puff]

I wonder had we never made the Beal trade, and we were to offer Allen, Royce and Nurkic for Butler, maybe along with swaps we gave for Beal and a few 2nds, if that would get Butler.

We'd have little for depth, but I guess we would have

Jones
Booker
Butler
KD
Plumlee

Morris
Lee
Okogie
Dunn
Oso

This may be where we'd be at this point without the Beal trade and just let Paul/Shamet expire. We might have another MLE type player...some ok guy in the depth that could be here or in the trade.

Or maybe they would want Oso or Dunn and we could keep Royce or Allen.

That is why that everyone, but you did not want the Beal trade. Have you ever stopped saying that it was a great trade and the best we could have done at the time?

It may have been the worst trade we have made in history. While I am concerned about a Butler trade, he might fit in just fine with this unlikeable team we have to watch.

I would like to see Grant Williams in the trade with Charlotte even if we have to wait until next year to see him in uniform.

[bwgood77]

I wonder had we never made the Beal trade, and we were to offer Allen, Royce and Nurkic for Butler, maybe along with swaps we gave for Beal and a few 2nds, if that would get Butler.

We'd have little for depth, but I guess we would have

Jones
Booker
Butler
KD
Plumlee

Morris
Lee
Okogie
Dunn
Oso

This may be where we'd be at this point without the Beal trade and just let Paul/Shamet expire. We might have another MLE type player...some ok guy in the depth that could be here or in the trade.

Or maybe they would want Oso or Dunn and we could keep Royce or Allen.

That is why that everyone, but you did not want the Beal trade. Have you ever stopped saying that it was a great trade and the best we could have done at the time?

It may have been the worst trade we have made in history. While I am concerned about a Butler trade, he might fit in just fine with this unlikeable team we have to watch.

I would like to see Grant Williams in the trade with Charlotte even if we have to wait until next year to see him in uniform.

No, I won't change my opinion because you want me to. Why do you care that I liked the trade?

That I thought it was a great trade? Beal has been balling. He has off nights, but he has played well a lot...scoring a lot, shooting high %s most nights. He's been playing well, despite being overpaid.

No, I still think it was lopsided trade at the time. Wizards fans were mad they got so little too. Could you imagine us getting that package for Book in a year?

My point was really that if we didn't have Beal we might have been able to offer a trade that could be more appealing, however, our depth would be horrible.

The KD was obviously the worst one. I mean that had to be one of the most lopsided trades of all time.

Beal may have what many consider the worst contract, but as I've mentioned many times, we didn't have any moves to make after trading half our team and all our picks for KD, because we had his contract and Book's, with the Book supermax kicking in and Paul/Shamet bad contracts with negative value that no one wanted. So either we let them expire and get nothing....add no talent and still have no cap space. I didn't think we'd get a talented player because Shamet and Paul's huge negative value. So I thought we had no way to add anyone. The fact we were able to add a player as talented as Beal for those guys was crazy to me.

But yeah, the only reason it was possible was because he had a really bad contract and that NTC no team wanted.

Anyway, you don't have to be so angry that's my opinion. I know many don't like the trade, and many casuals around the league think it was a terrible trade too (though most of them don't understand our cap predicament, thinking we'd otherwise have cap space).

I've posted many times we didn't have cap space, but sometimes still seem to post things like "we should have used that "money" on other players". Sure, that would be nice if it was possible.

I liked Paul probably even more than you did, and if you think we should have kept him, that's your opinion, but something visibly happened in the Mavs series that turned him into a guy that could score at will in the midrange and take over games, to a guy that couldn't do that anymore...couldn't move the right way...he said he had injured his hip. Then they attacked him on D.

Game 2 he was still great. But game 3 he suddenly turned into a different player with 7 turnovers, 4 assists, 4 fouls, and half his shots were 3s...he stopped going to his money midrange...he had just dominated from there in game 2.

Then in game 4 he was so visibly frustrated he fouled out. He took 4 total shots in 23 minutes, making 1 3 ptr and 1 2 pt basket.

Game 5, 7 pts, 4 turnovers, Game 6, 13 pts (3-5 from 3 but only made 1 of his midrange shots), 4 ast, 5 turnovers. Game 7 10pts, 4 assists.

Those were 5 games from a guy who was dominating as recently as game 2, being a master mid range guy, etc. Those are just his stats...Luka attacked on D knowing he was injured.

And he never got to be that mid range guy he could.

That clutch shooting to close out games.....the greatness we all watched was gone.

Sure he can still have 8-10 ast games, shoot some 3s at maybe a decent %, and is a great mentor/iq guy, but his on court tangible impact was pretty much gone.

If you hate Beal so much making that money. Do you really want Butler making $56 million a year at 36 and 37?

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Well clearly! That's what's being discussed here, man! BUT IF it's just not palatable enough to take back Grant William's multiyear salary, then you make it Okogie and two 2nds top get the deal done at all costs! Follow that up immediately by moving some combination of Jones, Morris for a Late or protected 1st. Then you look to flip any of Plumlee, Bol Bol, D Lee for 2nds. attach those 2nds in a trade to Nurkic in a trade to Washington for Valuncias/ Davis.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[lilfishi22]

Good few weeks off work and detoxed from Suns misery. Right back into the fire

[Ghost of Kleine]

Good few weeks off work and detoxed from Suns misery. Right back into the fire

[lilfishi22]

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Well clearly! That's what's being discussed here, man! BUT IF it's just not palatable enough to take back Grant William's multiyear salary, then you make it Okogie and two 2nds top get the deal done at all costs! Follow that up immediately by moving some combination of Jones, Morris for a Late or protected 1st. Then you look to flip any of Plumlee, Bol Bol, D Lee for 2nds. attach those 2nds in a trade to Nurkic in a trade to Washington for Valuncias/ Davis.

Absolutely HATE GWill

But if that's the cost to get off Nurk.....it is what it is