The 2016 Offseason Thread

[bwgood77]

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[saintEscaton]

I think some need to lower rookie expectations for Ullis, he still needs to bulk enough to crack a rotation and prove that his frame can hold up. The talent differential between SL and NBA at guard is the most drastic, and Ullis might have a hard time creating separation/turning the corner

[bigfoot]

This board just needs to calm their collective tits regarding Archie Goodwin. He looks like a typical young NBA prospect, no more no less. He's proven time and time again that he, at the very least, belongs in the NBA. He might never be more than an end of the bench player, but the guy is only 21 years old. The Suns aren't exactly in a situation where jettisoning a young prospect for basically no return makes a lot of sense. Just be patient with the kid.

It seems to be a trend with Suns fans. You guys give up on young players so fast, just relax. Remember what happened with guys like Robin Lopez. Sometimes it just takes a guy a while to get it.

It's OK if he doesn't get a ton of minutes this year. Next year he'll still only be 22 years old.

A typical young prospect is 18-19 year old just drafted with 1-year of college under their belts. Archie is equivalent to a player that spent four years in college (22-year old). When teams draft 22 year old players the thought is they are mature enough and know the game well enough they can contribute right away. They are typically less athletic but are fundamental sound and have a high basketball IQ. That's certainly not the case with Archie. We have seen him flounder for three years in the NBA and he is by far and by the numbers the worst two guard in the league. As Frank mentioned, if the front office had any faith in Archie then Barbosa wouldn't have been signed. Really Jenkins over Archie make much more sense.

You just compared a 4yr college player to a 3 year NBA player.

Yep ... I would expect a 3-year NBA player to dominate a 4-year college player (drafted in the first round). I don't believe Archie, in a team setting and playing the shooting guard position, would be able to do that. He can't shoot 3's, he turns the ball over, he can't make free throws, he can't play defense, his basketball IQ is very low, and he really hasn't shown himself to be a team player.

Really

.232 for 3 point percentage
.674 for free throw percentage
1.8 turnovers in 19 minutes of play

I would expect a third year NBA bench level shooting guard to be shooting at least .333 for threes and .750 for free throws. Archie is what he is ... an athletic specimen without the BBIQ and skills to play in the NBA.

[bwgood77]

I think some need to lower rookie expectations for Ullis, he still needs to bulk enough to crack a rotation and prove that his frame can hold up. The talent differential between SL and NBA at guard is the most drastic, and Ullis might have a hard time creating separation/turning the corner

He probably won't play much unless we have injuries or trades, especially if Barbosa plays 10-15 minutes like someone here suggested. Probably just garbage minutes.

[Frank Lee]

Ullis will get 20-30 mins per night....



in nice cool prescott.


This roster is unbalanced, and ragtaggy collegiate type line ups loom in the future.
To swallow it as anything other, you need a pitcher of koolaid. Can Watson and his Gandalfian ways conjure up 30 wins out of this bunch?

[darealjuice]

The only thing unbalanced about this roster is having 3 guards capable of being starters and getting big minutes. I also would be more than willing to bet that if we stay healthy this year we win more than 30 games.

[bigfoot]

Ullis will get 20-30 mins per night....



in nice cool prescott.


This roster is unbalanced, and ragtaggy collegiate type line ups loom in the future.
To swallow it as anything other, you need a pitcher of koolaid. Can Watson and his Gandalfian ways conjure up 30 wins out of this bunch?

Earl coached last years crew to a 9-24 record or .273 winning percentage. That translates to 22 wins. However there are some big differences to consider

1) Watson took over mid-season ... no training camp to teach and train his system
2) Watson had to integrate new players after the Kief trade
3) Bledsoe was injured
4) Warren was injured
5) Knight was injured
6) Chandler was in and out with injuries

I expect that Bledsoe alone will add more wins. Before he went down the Suns were 12-19 which projects to 32 wins. That was with both Horny and Kief still feuding and Kief playing the worst of his career. I think 30 wins is more than likely and the real question is can Watson conjure 40+ wins?

[Damkac]

Without any big injuries I think Suns should get 30 wins without problem. Biggest weakness is pf position.

[saintEscaton]

I'm praying for another midseason implosion, don't want to miss out on another crown jewel again just to be on the outside looking in

[bwgood77]

The only thing unbalanced about this roster is having 3 guards capable of being starters and getting big minutes. I also would be more than willing to bet that if we stay healthy this year we win more than 30 games.

Well we don't really have a legit vet starting PF on the roster. While I'm fine with what the team is doing we will pretty much ALWAYS be playing small ball. I think Dudley, PJ and TJ will all be fine starting PFs in certain lineups and on occasion, but full time it will always be a challenge. We are going to be outsized extremely often, unless we go with the two center lineup which is certainly not ideal.

I really am glad we didn't blow big money on an avg PF though and that we are going to bring along the young guys. I think we will be competitive on many nights, but I really can't believe some think we will be seriously challenging for a playoff spot. I think the only way that happens is either some crazy trade (possibly short sighted) trade OR we stay 100% healthy and multiple legit playoff contenders in the west are dealt major blows with injuries.

Having said all that, I do think we could potentially win more than 30 games IF everything goes smoothly, but think the playoffs are a bit far fetched.

[bwgood77]

I'm praying for another midseason implosion, don't want to miss out on another crown jewel again just to be on the outside looking in

How many crown jewel can't miss prospects do you see in this draft? No matter how bad we are, it would still require some luck in the lottery to end up with a top tier surefire difference maker, not only with the lotto balls but not taking one of the guys that bust. While those top tier prospects are intriguing, no one is guaranteed and maybe the best prospect has dealt with major injuries in the past.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I'm praying for another midseason implosion, don't want to miss out on another crown jewel again just to be on the outside looking in

How many crown jewel can't miss prospects do you see in this draft? No matter how bad we are, it would still require some luck in the lottery to end up with a top tier surefire difference maker, not only with the lotto balls but not taking one of the guys that bust. While those top tier prospects are intriguing, no one is guaranteed and maybe the best prospect has dealt with major injuries in the past.

I think the 2017 draft is much deeper than it is top heavy.

I'm excited by Chriss and Bender as prospects. I think getting those guys 20 minutes combined is possible. I think Chriss is more likely to get minutes first, because he's more capable inside, where we're weaker. Whoever gets those minutes will be the weakest part of our rotation, but that's okay - each is likely to be better than whomever we draft next year.

If TJ breaks out, we could make the playoffs. I don't think it's likely, but it's possible. I could see TJ and Devin getting most of the minutes at the 3, given our depth in the backcourt, with all of Bledsoe/Booker/Knight/Barbosa/Jenkins/Ulis. I'm also hoping that Len gets about 10 more minutes per game than Chandler. Don't know about Tucker's place on this squad. Hoping he and Archie are moved before the season begins.

All that is to say - I hope we make the playoffs. We got a ton of young talent and the MIA picks still ahead of us. No reason not to attempt ascension. Can't wait for next season!!!

[MrMiyagi]

I'm praying for another midseason implosion, don't want to miss out on another crown jewel again just to be on the outside looking in

How many crown jewel can't miss prospects do you see in this draft? No matter how bad we are, it would still require some luck in the lottery to end up with a top tier surefire difference maker, not only with the lotto balls but not taking one of the guys that bust. While those top tier prospects are intriguing, no one is guaranteed and maybe the best prospect has dealt with major injuries in the past.

What, you haven't seen their YouTube highlights? Take the number of picks before ours in next year's draft, and that's how many.

[bwgood77]

I'm praying for another midseason implosion, don't want to miss out on another crown jewel again just to be on the outside looking in

How many crown jewel can't miss prospects do you see in this draft? No matter how bad we are, it would still require some luck in the lottery to end up with a top tier surefire difference maker, not only with the lotto balls but not taking one of the guys that bust. While those top tier prospects are intriguing, no one is guaranteed and maybe the best prospect has dealt with major injuries in the past.

I think the 2017 draft is much deeper than it is top heavy.

I'm excited by Chriss and Bender as prospects. I think getting those guys 20 minutes combined is possible. I think Chriss is more likely to get minutes first, because he's more capable inside, where we're weaker. Whoever gets those minutes will be the weakest part of our rotation, but that's okay - each is likely to be better than whomever we draft next year.

If TJ breaks out, we could make the playoffs. I don't think it's likely, but it's possible. I could see TJ and Devin getting most of the minutes at the 3, given our depth in the backcourt, with all of Bledsoe/Booker/Knight/Barbosa/Jenkins/Ulis. I'm also hoping that Len gets about 10 more minutes per game than Chandler. Don't know about Tucker's place on this squad. Hoping he and Archie are moved before the season begins.

All that is to say - I hope we make the playoffs. We got a ton of young talent and the MIA picks still ahead of us. No reason not to attempt ascension. Can't wait for next season!!!

It would be great if the rooks get minutes, but the more they get, the less likely it is we are in the playoff hunt. But the reason we won't make the playoffs won't be for lack of trying. It's a good goal for these guys to have right now though.

[lilfishi22]

Yep ... I would expect a 3-year NBA player to dominate a 4-year college player (drafted in the first round). I don't believe Archie, in a team setting and playing the shooting guard position, would be able to do that. He can't shoot 3's, he turns the ball over, he can't make free throws, he can't play defense, his basketball IQ is very low, and he really hasn't shown himself to be a team player.

Really

.232 for 3 point percentage
.674 for free throw percentage
1.8 turnovers in 19 minutes of play

I would expect a third year NBA bench level shooting guard to be shooting at least .333 for threes and .750 for free throws. Archie is what he is ... an athletic specimen without the BBIQ and skills to play in the NBA.

I think some people find this hard to comprehend because of his rare flashes of promise. In the NBA, flashes and promise doesn't get you playing time, consistency does. We've given him 3 years of NBA level development to work on his broken jump shot and unfortunately, the one requisite skill required for an NBA guard is one he has made no improvement in. Fans need to acknowledge that we took a chance on him because he had the physical tools and seemingly had the right attitude to succeed. We banked on these two qualities for him to develop into a capable NBA player. It was a gamble, an experiment and thus far it's been a gamble that just hasn't paid off. Some see him as a potential diamond in the rough, I see him as fool's gold.

[letsgosuns]

I want Bender and Chriss to each get at least 20 minutes a game. I do not care how raw or unprepared people claim they are. Who cares. Just play them. People said the same stuff about Booker like all he can do is shoot and nothing else and look what happened. I want the new Suns rookies to compete for ROY. I would absolutely play them over a guy like Tucker who I have no idea why is still on the team anyway. Is this season about wins and losses? It is time to go all in and hand this team to the young players. Let's see what they got.

[letsgosuns]

I changed my mind about Amare. I was disappointed the Suns did not let him ride off into the sunset as a Suns player and that he retired as a Knick. But now that he signed a contract to play in Israel, you really see that all he cares about is attention. He is obsessed with it. He wants to be the toast of the town somewhere and does not care about much else. I believe he loves the game like he says but when you retire, you are supposed to retire. Signing to play outside the country immediately after you retire is not really retiring. He should not have retired in the first place and just left to play somewhere else. The whole situation is ridiculous.

[lilfishi22]

I want Bender and Chriss to each get at least 20 minutes a game. I do not care how raw or unprepared people claim they are. Who cares. Just play them. People said the same stuff about Booker like all he can do is shoot and nothing else and look what happened. I want the new Suns rookies to compete for ROY. I would absolutely play them over a guy like Tucker who I have no idea why is still on the team anyway. Is this season about wins and losses? It is time to go all in and hand this team to the young players. Let's see what they got.

I don't think either players are ready for 20mpg. In order for others on the court to play well, you need players who are ready to contribute to also be playing. 20mpg to Bender and Chriss, if neither are ready to contribute more than spot minutes will mean the other 4 players on the court will suffer. If they can come in early in the season and demonstrate some skill that keeps them on the floor, stays within the flow of the game and contribute then they'll get 10-15mpg. If they come in and is saddled with foul trouble, turnovers, playing bad defense or offers nothing on offense etc then I'd rather Dudley and PJ take more minutes and stick with spot minutes for the rookies. It makes no sense for a black hole on defense or offense to be on the floor for half the game if there's a guy on the bench that can contribute within the flow of the system.

You can't just say, this is a rebuild so we'll just hand the young and unproven players the keys to the team. I think that's neither good for team morale or, more importantly, positive for the development of our young players. Booker is an exception and not the rule.

[lilfishi22]

I changed my mind about Amare. I was disappointed the Suns did not let him ride off into the sunset as a Suns player and that he retired as a Knick. But now that he signed a contract to play in Israel, you really see that all he cares about is attention. He is obsessed with it. He wants to be the toast of the town somewhere and does not care about much else. I believe he loves the game like he says but when you retire, you are supposed to retire. Signing to play outside the country immediately after you retire is not really retiring. He should not have retired in the first place and just left to play somewhere else. The whole situation is ridiculous.

Totally disagree with this notion. Are you saying ex-players aren't allowed to play pick up or celebrity games or some regional league as well? Amare retired from the NBA, he didn't retire from basketball. If a player can no longer play at the highest level (NBA) whether due to injuries, age or whatever reason and retire from the highest level, why can't they play in China, Australia or in Amare's case, Israel?

Amare has done enough to choose to retire from the NBA when he's no longer getting offers from teams he wants to play for and instead play for a team he actually has a vested interest in. I see absolutely no issue with that.

[letsgosuns]

I changed my mind about Amare. I was disappointed the Suns did not let him ride off into the sunset as a Suns player and that he retired as a Knick. But now that he signed a contract to play in Israel, you really see that all he cares about is attention. He is obsessed with it. He wants to be the toast of the town somewhere and does not care about much else. I believe he loves the game like he says but when you retire, you are supposed to retire. Signing to play outside the country immediately after you retire is not really retiring. He should not have retired in the first place and just left to play somewhere else. The whole situation is ridiculous.

Totally disagree with this notion. Are you saying ex-players aren't allowed to play pick up or celebrity games or some regional league as well? Amare retired from the NBA, he didn't retire from basketball. If a player can no longer play at the highest level (NBA) whether due to injuries, age or whatever reason and retire from the highest level, why can't they play in China, Australia or in Amare's case, Israel?

Amare has done enough to choose to retire from the NBA when he's no longer getting offers from teams he wants to play for and instead play for a team he actually has a vested interest in. I see absolutely no issue with that.

I am not saying anything about pickup games, celebrity games, or anything of that nature, or even a player making a comeback after retiring. I am saying how Amare handled his retirement is weird. He makes a big deal out of retiring, signs a one day contract with the Knicks, and says I am done playing the NBA. Days later, he signs to play in another country. Why didn't he just not retire and leave the NBA without making a big deal out of it.

Didn't Carlos Boozer just sign to play in China? That guy did not even play in the NBA last season and I do not recall him signing a one day contract with some team, say I am retiring from the NBA, and then days later immediately sign to play in China. He just did not say anything and signed to play in China. Amare should not have acted like his career was over and retire only to immediately sign to play in another professional league days after retiring. In my mind, if you are playing professionally somewhere in the world, you are not really retired.