2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part IV

[Ghost of Kleine]

Over on the Magic board they're talking alot about the pros and cons of keeping the Franz/Paolo combo together. Suggs is needed for his defense so he'll probably stay either way.

Those guys all love Franz and think that Paolo would be the 1 to move. I'd do Paolo, picks and whatever filler is needed for that i think.


I'd also call on Ausar, I mean they're twins so athletically they can do the same stuff. Maybe we flip Jalen there for Ausar, Ivey and more picks? Bring out a teams of

Ivey
Dunn
Ausar
Paolo
Jabari

Tons of youth, athleticism and defense, not much shooting but then that's what we target in the drafts. Plus we still have Greyson and Beal off the bench.

There is zero chance Magic trade Pablo for Booker. Pablo will surpass Booker in a couple of years time and he's 6'9 and so young. Booker is only valued really highl by some Suns fans. He's not a two way player and isn't an elite athlete that would make up for bad shooting nights by getting to the rim or free throw line. I can see Ja Morant being traded for Pablo or something similar.... Booker ain't it.

Hence I'm OK with getting Rockets deal of youth, Suns picks back and salary. I think Jalen Green can be a 2nd option star in his prime... just need to get him to play more disciplined both ways.

Who's Pablo? .........................Escobar?......................Chiccone'????



All kidding aside, Although I might agree with you that it's unlikely the Magic would trade Paolo for Booker (especially with still being on his rookie deal as opposed to Bookeers' supermax. Slim is right that you have to at least explore these possibilities as to not do so would be negligence. Especially when you look at how bizarre the value exchanges have been in the last few years.

Overall though, I'm leaning more towards the Houston deal IF and only if (for Booker) they're surrendering a package of J Green/ J Smith or Eason or Whitmore/Landale/ picks (ALL 3 OF OUR 1STS BACK)!! Then I might look to........................................

1- Trade our 25' PHX 1st (top 6-8 range) to Brooklyn for their 19th, 24th and 27th picks.

1- Trade KD to Detroit for Harris/ Thompson/ Fontecchio/ 2 DET 1sts package.
2- Then flip Harris/ Fontecchio ( combined $35 million in expirings) and the two DET 1sts to Denver for MPJr.
3- Then trade Allen/ Richards to Orlando for Bidatze/ Harris/ Josephs/ DEN 25' 1st (25th pick).
** Waive/ stretch Harris and Josephs, and decline Martin and Milicic. Creating around $ 27 million in additional cap flexibility.

Free agency
- Sign Adams or Capela for around 10-12 million per.
- Brogdon for around 10-12 million.
- G Trent Jr on Vet minimum.
** We now have picks 19, 24, 25, 27, 29 and 54. We package O'neale and the 29th pick to San Antonio for ATL 26' 1st (swap rights).

Draft
19- Rasheer Fleming.
24- Sergio de Larrea.
25- Carter Bryant.
27- Jo'an Beringer. (draft 'n' stash G League).
54- Kobe Brea (draft 'n' stash G League).
Post-draft/free agency roster going into training camp

Beal/ J Green / Thompson/ Porter Jr/ Adams.

Brogdan/Trent Jr/ Dunn/ Smith Jr/ Bidatze.

Larrea/ Whitmore/ Bryant/ Fleming/ Landale.
** Ighodaro in G league for development.

[lilfishi22]

I look at it this way in a slightly positive beneficial slant in a potential Booker trade because If it's true that they're not high on him (like they are with Amen who's clearly untouchable) then his value will be lower causing them to add more in the exchange in order to meet the necessary value thresholds. Now I don't want Van Vleet despite his huge expiring because he represents just another aging undersized guard that if included would at up most of the salary matching in the deal resulting in Houston having to surrender a much smaller package of young players for him. I mean sure he's a solid vet, but if we're trading Booker, then we're rebuilding. And we could just as easily get far enough under the cap line and aprons by virtue of taking back 2-3 of their young cost-controlled talents and then trading KD as well because it'd make no sense to trade Booker and just try to compete around a 37 yr old KD and oft-injured Beal. I'd much rather take back J Green/ Eason or Whitmore and our 1sts back than Van Vleet ( huge salary Dump) and maybe only 1 young prospect/ picks. Because in taking back a lower salary than Van Vleet, it becomes more necessary for Houston to add multiple salaries to get closer to matching.

I get that some here don't value Jalen Green as highly as I might. But his value/upside going forward far outweighs the one-time cap reduction Van Vleet would offer to us. Sure he hasn't yet put it all together yet, but he's still only 23 years old and that'll come with age and more experience, and his ceiling is very high! I mean he's already averaging 21/4/4, and really just needs to improve his shot selection, timing, and situational nuance to take that next big leap!

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But it likely won't matter what people think of Green, as any Booker trade with Houston, would absolutely be sending Green back to us rather than to keep both and have close to 80 million tied up in only one position. Only our front office is dumb enough to do that!....LOL. But if it's actually a KD to Houston trade we're talking about, AND we're taking Van Vleet back to get all of our 3 1st back (25,27, and 29 1sts). Then I'm cool with that package of KD for Van Vleet/ Smith Jr/ PHX 25' 1st, PHX 27' 1st, PHX 29' 1st. I can be down with that. Then sign a bunch of free agent depth pieces around Booker and Beal, and draft athletic, young talent to be our core for the future!

To be clear, I'm not talking about a Booker trade. This would be for KD

And the way I see Green is that he's good but he's not great. Book was also good but not great until he figured out how to not only be a playmaker but also be an efficient scorer, two things Green hasn't quite worked out yet. Pulling out nice 5 game sample over like a 3 year period doesn't move the needle for me. Even Josh Jackson has a couple of good 5 game samples.

Well I again do agree with you about the KD package premise as I previously mentioned. if it's indeed a KD package, then I agree that the package you suggested would be perfectly good value in my opinion.

Although I might push hard for another small inclusionary piece like Whitmore at least initially when starting negotiations as it's just customary to start high and work your way down to mutually amenable value.

But ultimately I'd be cool settling on your package of KD for Van Vleet/ Jabari Smith Jr/ our 3 1sts back. Because maybe if in the 8-10 range It'd be highly beneficial for us to consider trading that pick back down in the draft to another team with multiple 1sts. Brooklyn or else maybe Orlando in an Allen for Bidatze and their 16th, 25th, and44th picks?

To eventually end up with 2-3 1sts and maybe a 2nd or two ( G league stash) AND if our pick is premium enough, target a pick in 26 or 28 from either Brooklyn or Orlando as well.

Ultimately, something like say the 6th or 8th pick for Brooklyn's 19th, 24th, and 36th picks. That would give us 3 cost controlled (4 yrs) young athletic talents to build out our core at key positions with, and having a great mix of both vet experience and young athletic, high energy talent to push for maybe (if done correctly) a 6-8 seeding in the playoffs??

And for J Green, you're absolutely right that currently he's really good but not yet great. But as you yourself pointed out with Book, it becomes a matter of " figuring it out" as is the case with most young players as they garner more experience (situationally) and through acquired in game development. Now I don't see JGreen at all being as efficient as Booker.

But I do think he can become a potent 2nd option type scoring weapon ala maybe a Clyde Drexler or a Dwayne Wade archetype player IF everything breaks right for him to reach his ceiling. Now sometimes for young players, the biggest aspect (aside from cumulative "in game "experience) that could be inhibiting a more rapid development arch would be the environment itself and how that player might be utilized, the game schemes or even roster construction not meshing ideally?

But nevertheless in terms of value, high end talent is value that you look to exchange for a player such as Booker. Even if it's not yet fully realized ceiling value in its current condition. It's the investment that you buy low on to get a bargain while looking towards a maximum payout later.

Getting Green right now serves to purposes. 1st, it fills the hole left by Booker at that position for the long term future with an equitably high upside value talent with Star potential.

And 2nd, because his value currently is not at it's apec or percieved highly in this current situation ( to Houston) because of his struggles, we'd be getting him at a significant discount as a salary filler.

But ALSO, in taking him back at a lower salary than Van Vleet in this exchange, it allows us to demand additional value inclusions up to matching KDs' salary. Squeezing more value out of the deal cumulatively.

And the point of the tweets I shared was to illustrate multiple instances of 5 more stretches of games putting up star level production, and on elite efficiency at only 23 yrs old. This indicates his clear star potential as a top 2-3 option ( franchise cornerstone piece) with a very high value ceiling outcome.

Josh Jackson never was the shooter, scorer that JGreen is. He's never scored with that level of efficiency from all over the court. Really the only stark similarities between them would be their athleticism and propensity for driving to the rim, and maybe their irrational confidence.

Green has always given me a bit of a high end Jordan Clarkson vibes. Green is more talented but they do a lot of the same things and also have similar weaknesses.

Similar ORTG/DRTG, similar Assist to Turnover ratio, similar 3PT%, similar efficiency, almost identical usage. Green is better at getting to the line, he has fewer turnovers but also fewer assists and he is far more athletic and younger so he has potential to be much better but as of right now, he's basically what Book was before he figured it out, which is a not that efficient volume scorer with a clear defensive weakness and not much of a passing game.

If he doesn't figure it out, then he could peak as high end Jordan Clarkson who'll be more expensive, if he does maybe he could be Book. Don't get me wrong, he's obviously a gifted scorer, it's why he was drafted so high but he's not a prospect anymore, he's been in the NBA for 4 years and we should be judging him for what he's produced in these 4 years as opposed to projecting him to the moon based on pre-draft scouting reports. What sets Book apart from volume scorers like Clarkson and Green is that he figured out how to score with elite efficiency, he figured out how to be a pretty damn good playmaker at his position and he figured out how he could play passable defense.

I don't really care to discuss Book trades right now because I don't think we're going to move him

As for Jackson, it wasn't a direct comparison to Green as a player. More just highlighting 5 game highlight samples across a 2-3 year period doesn't really prove anything. If there were a couple of 10-15 game samples per season then that might be different.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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This makes more sense obviously.

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Sign me up for a KD for Tobias Harris/ Ausar Thompson / Fontecchio/ 2 1sts trade. Then trade Harris and Fontecchios' 35+ million in expirings + the 2 DET firsts to Denver for MPJr.
( MPJr will expire the same time as Beal too giving us close to 90 million in expirings to use for trades for big name players/ depth pieces.

[lilfishi22]

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Philly must be pissed lol

The irony of the Sixers "poaching" and then overpaying two former LA Clippers is just hilarious.

They just came from 5 years of Tobias Harris overpay, then for his $40m to finally come off the books to now overpaying once again for an older and even less effective Paul George and he's in the books with a player option until 2028

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Philly must be pissed lol

The irony of the Sixers "poaching" and then overpaying two former LA Clippers is just hilarious.

They just came from 5 years of Tobias Harris overpay, then for his $40m to finally come off the books to now overpaying once again for an older and even less effective Paul George and he's in the books with a player option until 2028

Definitely! They're just in a really bad position. Possibly even worse than us if they didn't have all those draft assets and young players like Maxey and McCain. Yabusele is a free agent too this summer. I wonder if they make moves to try and resign him at a higher amount while still being over the 2nd apron? This CBA has really, really complicated things.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[lilfishi22]

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Philly must be pissed lol

The irony of the Sixers "poaching" and then overpaying two former LA Clippers is just hilarious.

They just came from 5 years of Tobias Harris overpay, then for his $40m to finally come off the books to now overpaying once again for an older and even less effective Paul George and he's in the books with a player option until 2028

Definitely! They're just in a really bad position. Possibly even worse than us if they didn't have all those draft assets and young players like Maxey and McCain. Yabusele is a free agent too this summer. I wonder if they make moves to try and resign him at a higher amount while still being over the 2nd apron? This CBA has really, really complicated things.

Poor management hitching their wagon to Harris instead of Jimmy was their first big mistake. That same Jimmy took the Heat to the Finals the season after while the Sixers got swept in the 1st round.

Always thought Harris got a bad rap simply because of the actions of Philly (overpaying and choosing him over Jimmy) but the guy basically came in and did his job. He was a solid 3rd banana averaging 18/7/3 during his time in Philly. Like, it's not his fault for accepting the payday of a lifetime. It's not too different to how I feel about Beal. Fans give him crap but it's not his fault he earned his NTC in Washington, the SUns traded for him and hyped him up as part of the Big 3. He's been a perfectly fine 3rd banana, overpaid but perfectly fine.

[thamadkant]

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Philly must be pissed lol

The irony of the Sixers "poaching" and then overpaying two former LA Clippers is just hilarious.

They just came from 5 years of Tobias Harris overpay, then for his $40m to finally come off the books to now overpaying once again for an older and even less effective Paul George and he's in the books with a player option until 2028

Paul George contract and quiet quitting is one reason why I understand some ownership are risk averse with super duper max to players.... 50M for PG13 who is focusing on his Podcast career.

[bwgood77]

Over on the Magic board they're talking alot about the pros and cons of keeping the Franz/Paolo combo together. Suggs is needed for his defense so he'll probably stay either way.

Those guys all love Franz and think that Paolo would be the 1 to move. I'd do Paolo, picks and whatever filler is needed for that i think.


I'd also call on Ausar, I mean they're twins so athletically they can do the same stuff. Maybe we flip Jalen there for Ausar, Ivey and more picks? Bring out a teams of

Ivey
Dunn
Ausar
Paolo
Jabari

Tons of youth, athleticism and defense, not much shooting but then that's what we target in the drafts. Plus we still have Greyson and Beal off the bench.

There is zero chance Magic trade Pablo for Booker. Pablo will surpass Booker in a couple of years time and he's 6'9 and so young. Booker is only valued really highl by some Suns fans. He's not a two way player and isn't an elite athlete that would make up for bad shooting nights by getting to the rim or free throw line. I can see Ja Morant being traded for Pablo or something similar.... Booker ain't it.

Hence I'm OK with getting Rockets deal of youth, Suns picks back and salary. I think Jalen Green can be a 2nd option star in his prime... just need to get him to play more disciplined both ways.

That's funny to read and I'm being completely serious here when i said I've read Magic fans complain on their board about Paolo's defense and how much his efficiency stinks. Also on the trade board you should see what ppl having Ja go for lol.

None of which matters as we all value things differently. I think Orlando will be primed to make a move come summer. Will it be Booker? Who knows. I know that all the dudes on that boars are furious that they haven't made a big time move for an elite scorer.

It would be interesting to see if they would entertain it. Bill Simmons had Paolo at #8 on his trade value list and Book at 16.

https://nbarankings.theringer.com/trade-value

[bwgood77]

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Philly must be pissed lol

The irony of the Sixers "poaching" and then overpaying two former LA Clippers is just hilarious.

They just came from 5 years of Tobias Harris overpay, then for his $40m to finally come off the books to now overpaying once again for an older and even less effective Paul George and he's in the books with a player option until 2028

Paul George contract and quiet quitting is one reason why I understand some ownership are risk averse with super duper max to players.... 50M for PG13 who is focusing on his Podcast career.

The Sixers could be in a very bad situation if Embiid and George keep going the way they are going. Their salaries for 3 guys going forward:

[lilfishi22]

Philly must be pissed lol

The irony of the Sixers "poaching" and then overpaying two former LA Clippers is just hilarious.

They just came from 5 years of Tobias Harris overpay, then for his $40m to finally come off the books to now overpaying once again for an older and even less effective Paul George and he's in the books with a player option until 2028

Paul George contract and quiet quitting is one reason why I understand some ownership are risk averse with super duper max to players.... 50M for PG13 who is focusing on his Podcast career.

The Sixers could be in a very bad situation if Embiid and George keep going the way they are going. Their salaries for 3 guys going forward:

Exactly why I thought regardless of MVP talent, Embiid just isn't worth it. He can't stay healthy, when he's playing he's probably playing hurt and has never been out of the 2nd round of the playoffs. I mean, has he ever had a post-season where he wasn't playing injured? His contract just puts a cap on it. I can't even imagine paying Embiid $51m now, let alone 35 year old Embiid $67m a few years down the track

[Slim Charless]

There is zero chance Magic trade Pablo for Booker. Pablo will surpass Booker in a couple of years time and he's 6'9 and so young. Booker is only valued really highl by some Suns fans. He's not a two way player and isn't an elite athlete that would make up for bad shooting nights by getting to the rim or free throw line. I can see Ja Morant being traded for Pablo or something similar.... Booker ain't it.

Hence I'm OK with getting Rockets deal of youth, Suns picks back and salary. I think Jalen Green can be a 2nd option star in his prime... just need to get him to play more disciplined both ways.

That's funny to read and I'm being completely serious here when i said I've read Magic fans complain on their board about Paolo's defense and how much his efficiency stinks. Also on the trade board you should see what ppl having Ja go for lol.

None of which matters as we all value things differently. I think Orlando will be primed to make a move come summer. Will it be Booker? Who knows. I know that all the dudes on that boars are furious that they haven't made a big time move for an elite scorer.

It would be interesting to see if they would entertain it. Bill Simmons had Paolo at #8 on his trade value list and Book at 16.

https://nbarankings.theringer.com/trade-value

That's fair. For the record, if I was them, I'd say no to that trade and keep Paolo. However, on the Magic forum, the posters seem to value Franz higher. I disagree and I would send him out for a Booker trade. I think Franz is #29 or so on that Simmons list.

Booker for Franz/2025 FRP/2026 FRP and whatever filler (tho i also think we should be able to get WCJ or Goga) seems like a good deal to me. They have Tristan De Silva at the 3 to take over. He's obviously no Franz, but he's played great when given the opportunity and isnt making 39m a year either.

[Slim Charless]

Paul George contract and quiet quitting is one reason why I understand some ownership are risk averse with super duper max to players.... 50M for PG13 who is focusing on his Podcast career.

The Sixers could be in a very bad situation if Embiid and George keep going the way they are going. Their salaries for 3 guys going forward:

Exactly why I thought regardless of MVP talent, Embiid just isn't worth it. He can't stay healthy, when he's playing he's probably playing hurt and has never been out of the 2nd round of the playoffs. I mean, has he ever had a post-season where he wasn't playing injured? His contract just puts a cap on it. I can't even imagine paying Embiid $51m now, let alone 35 year old Embiid $67m a few years down the track

I got a little crazy earlier in the season when I suggested Booker for Embiid.

I'm ready to admit, thats probably a bad call by me.

[Fo-Real]

We really ain't looking to sign a C In biyout/free agents?

[lilfishi22]

There is zero chance Magic trade Pablo for Booker. Pablo will surpass Booker in a couple of years time and he's 6'9 and so young. Booker is only valued really highl by some Suns fans. He's not a two way player and isn't an elite athlete that would make up for bad shooting nights by getting to the rim or free throw line. I can see Ja Morant being traded for Pablo or something similar.... Booker ain't it.

Hence I'm OK with getting Rockets deal of youth, Suns picks back and salary. I think Jalen Green can be a 2nd option star in his prime... just need to get him to play more disciplined both ways.

That's funny to read and I'm being completely serious here when i said I've read Magic fans complain on their board about Paolo's defense and how much his efficiency stinks. Also on the trade board you should see what ppl having Ja go for lol.

None of which matters as we all value things differently. I think Orlando will be primed to make a move come summer. Will it be Booker? Who knows. I know that all the dudes on that boars are furious that they haven't made a big time move for an elite scorer.

It would be interesting to see if they would entertain it. Bill Simmons had Paolo at #8 on his trade value list and Book at 16.

https://nbarankings.theringer.com/trade-value

Interesting seeing Book in the untouchables category, which I agree with. I guess I'm probably not in the minority

[lilfishi22]

The Sixers could be in a very bad situation if Embiid and George keep going the way they are going. Their salaries for 3 guys going forward:

Exactly why I thought regardless of MVP talent, Embiid just isn't worth it. He can't stay healthy, when he's playing he's probably playing hurt and has never been out of the 2nd round of the playoffs. I mean, has he ever had a post-season where he wasn't playing injured? His contract just puts a cap on it. I can't even imagine paying Embiid $51m now, let alone 35 year old Embiid $67m a few years down the track

I got a little crazy earlier in the season when I suggested Booker for Embiid.

I'm ready to admit, thats probably a bad call by me.

Won't be the last hill you'll die on. We've all been there

[Saberestar]

We really ain't looking to sign a C In biyout/free agents?

Not for now. We will see what happens in the next 10 days.

A player must agree to a buyout and be waived by March 1 if they want to be eligible to play for a new team in the postseason. The player has the option to sign with any team at any time, but veterans eyeing playoff contenders must keep the March 1 deadline in mind.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Philly must be pissed lol

The irony of the Sixers "poaching" and then overpaying two former LA Clippers is just hilarious.

They just came from 5 years of Tobias Harris overpay, then for his $40m to finally come off the books to now overpaying once again for an older and even less effective Paul George and he's in the books with a player option until 2028

Paul George contract and quiet quitting is one reason why I understand some ownership are risk averse with super duper max to players.... 50M for PG13 who is focusing on his Podcast career.

The Sixers could be in a very bad situation if Embiid and George keep going the way they are going. Their salaries for 3 guys going forward:

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Glad to hear that someone else (an actual NBA expert trainer) sees the same ideas around the best way to utilize Simmons in a Draymond Green type of role at the 4. I'm just glad that other people are also recognizing this potential, but it is too bad it took so many others so long to try this with him.