2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part IV

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Glad to hear that someone else (an actual NBA expert trainer) sees the same ideas around the best way to utilize Simmons in a Draymond Green type of role at the 4. I'm just glad that other people are also recognizing this potential, but it is too bad it took so many others so long to try this with him.

[lilfishi22]

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Glad to hear that someone else (an actual NBA expert trainer) sees the same ideas around the best way to utilize Simmons in a Draymond Green type of role at the 4. I'm just glad that other people are also recognizing this potential, but it is too bad it took so many others so long to try this with him.

The major difference between Draymond and Simmons is 3 things:

- The system they played in were vastly differently. One focused heavily on ball movement, off ball movement and a lot of shooting. The other needed a lot of self creation (via Embiid) and didn't take a lot of 3's to spread the floor.

- The complementary players they each played with. Draymond had the great fortune (basically winning the lottery) of playing and winning alongside two of the best shooters in NBA history and for a coach who emphasised an ultra high tempo offense which negated a lot of Dray's lack of individual offense. Simmons didn't have any of that and even from the beginning there were questions as to whether the fit with Embiid was going to work because both needed to play near the basket to be effective.

- Leadership, the biggest individual difference between the two is one is the leader and heart and soul of the team while the other isn't a leader while also playing on a team without a leader.

So all the stuff Hanlen is talking about, he was already doing a lot of that in Philly. It wasn't like a secret that Draymond was a pretty damn good blueprint to "unlocking" Simmons, it's that it just wouldn't work in Philly. He was very often the primary defender on whoever is the opposing team's best scorer, whether it's a guard of a big. He already did a ton of dribble hand offs, setting screens and of course, rebound and push the ball.

The problem is that the system and the players were not conducive to Simmons having a Draymond level impact despite being a better playmaker and being pretty similar defensively.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Glad to hear that someone else (an actual NBA expert trainer) sees the same ideas around the best way to utilize Simmons in a Draymond Green type of role at the 4. I'm just glad that other people are also recognizing this potential, but it is too bad it took so many others so long to try this with him.

The major difference between Draymond and Simmons is 3 things:

- The system they played in were vastly differently. One focused heavily on ball movement, off ball movement and a lot of shooting. The other needed a lot of self creation (via Embiid) and didn't take a lot of 3's to spread the floor.

- The complementary players they each played with. Draymond had the great fortune (basically winning the lottery) of playing and winning alongside two of the best shooters in NBA history and for a coach who emphasised an ultra high tempo offense which negated a lot of Dray's lack of individual offense. Simmons didn't have any of that and even from the beginning there were questions as to whether the fit with Embiid was going to work because both needed to play near the basket to be effective.

- Leadership, the biggest individual difference between the two is one is the leader and heart and soul of the team while the other isn't a leader while also playing on a team without a leader.

So all the stuff Hanlen is talking about, he was already doing a lot of that in Philly. It wasn't like a secret that Draymond was a pretty damn good blueprint to "unlocking" Simmons, it's that it just wouldn't work in Philly. He was very often the primary defender on whoever is the opposing team's best scorer, whether it's a guard of a big. He already did a ton of dribble hand offs, setting screens and of course, rebound and push the ball.

The problem is that the system and the players were not conducive to Simmons having a Draymond level impact despite being a better playmaker and being pretty similar defensively.

All great points of course man. But honestly, none of that really applies to what I was suggesting with Simmons a year or two ago as he struggled in Philly and had negative value. What you're saying about the system in Philly was right. But what I was suggesting back then was that we would trade for him and utilize him at the 3 or 4 in a Draymond Green type of role due to him playing that role wouldn't require him shooting, and would rather have accentuated his natural talents as a 6'11 playmaker and high-end defender. And in having him play to his natural talents, hopefully, it would mitigate his lack of confidence rooted in his shooting issues. And funny enough that it wasn't some big secret that the "Draymond blueprint" was the key to unlocking him, but no on really utilized that correctly until recently with the Clippers. Even Philly and Brooklyn tried to still have him taking shots and focusing on driving to the rim trying to make him an offensive weapon, and both fanbases' fans ridiculed him mercilessly over it so badly to the point of the whole mental breakdown debacle.


When all they really had to do was to fully utilize him in a defensive / playmaking role. And during his 2017-2018 season there, they had plenty of shooters they surrounded him and Embiid with like Bayless, Covington, Ilyasova, Korkmaz, and Stauskus. But again, they tried to make him a scoring/ shooting threat alongside his playmaking. And they should have just focused on his lockdown defensive (ALL NBA) level value and playmaking and completely ignored the premise of him becoming a shooting threat. But for us, we would have been a perfect fit for him back when I first suggested it because we had plenty of players that could hit the 3 and space the floor. I remember suggesting it when we were discussing Paul replacements right before the Beal trade happened, and then again when Devin Booker was first exploring the whole point Book premise after Paul was moved and I suggested trading for him so Booker could stay at the 2, or else play Simmons at the 3/4 in a Draymond defensive/ playmaking role to take pressure off of Booker resulting from double teams, etc.

But instead, we decided to move Ayton for Nurkic and have him pass out of the post. My point is that I suggested it could work for us back then, and only just now are actual NBA trainers, and professionals considering the beneficial possibility. It's a bizarre dynamic in that it's frustrating and a relief to see it finally gain some focus and discussion as to it's relevance.

[garrick]

Wasn't happy we threw him into that deal

Toumani is the player we wish Dunn could become!

Dunn is a lot smaller than Camara and gambles way too much for fouls by reaching in or having his hands down too often, now this could be fixed in his second season and he could maybe fill out a bit more but it's unrealized potential at this point and I do not consider Dunn untradeable.

Camara is that missing piece for us and it's maddening how JJ and Ishbia were so stupid to give him away for the corpse of Nurkic and Grayson.

I'm sorry man! I've got mad respect for you always! But I just don't understand all the Dunn slander from you. I mean you should understand that the gap you're promoting here just isn't as big as you're making it seem.
https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=ryan-dunn--toumani-camara
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?player_id2=camarto01&player_id1=dunnry01&request=1&utm_source=bbr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=dunnry01&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison

I mean apart from the free throw % disparity, the statistical differences are incremental at best. But then it's also only fair to take the minutes disparity and total of games played (applied for experience and in-game development) to discern that Camaras' situation has been much more favorable in comparison to Dunns, and yet again, the disparity is minimal by a few percentage points at best. I get the frustration over giving up Camara and seeing him blossom with greater opportunities afforded him on that younger team. And yes! It was really stupid for Jones to trade him away just to dump Ayton in that deal too.

This is yet another glaring indictment of Jones as a terrible GM always losing the value equation in trades. But c'mon man, none of this is Dunns' fault in any way. He's been nothing short of everything we've needed towards being an energizing player, exceptional defender, and an all-around great character kid for us in his first frakin' season.

Now yes! I agree that I'd love to have Camara back to possibly create an elite suffocating defensive duo between the two of them. But just like everything else, our front office royally screwed up what could have been a great thing for us. Dunn is just a causal reactionary result of them trying to fix their egregious screw-up! My point in all this is that maybe your anger and frustration are being misdirected at the wrong target when it shouldn't be Dunn at all, but rather our clown show front office instead.


Dunn is just out there always putting his full effort and leaving everything out there on the floor trying to fill the gap that Ishbia and Jones created! And obviously doing pretty well in a poor situation that he did nothing to create. We should be sending all our vitriol to the ones at fault that prevented us from actually having an ELITE DEFENSIVE DUO of Camara and Dunn because they wanted to dump Ayton at all costs and for Nurkic of all players whom they also dumped not long after. It really sucks brother, but it's all on Ishbia and Jones................Our very own front office version of Dumb and Dumber!

The stats may seem similar but the eye test tells me Camara is the superior player in terms of both offense and defense but yes who knows if he might be the same as Camara next season. Time will tell.

[Saberestar]

Toumani is the player we wish Dunn could become!

Dunn is a lot smaller than Camara and gambles way too much for fouls by reaching in or having his hands down too often, now this could be fixed in his second season and he could maybe fill out a bit more but it's unrealized potential at this point and I do not consider Dunn untradeable.

Camara is that missing piece for us and it's maddening how JJ and Ishbia were so stupid to give him away for the corpse of Nurkic and Grayson.

I'm sorry man! I've got mad respect for you always! But I just don't understand all the Dunn slander from you. I mean you should understand that the gap you're promoting here just isn't as big as you're making it seem.
https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=ryan-dunn--toumani-camara
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?player_id2=camarto01&player_id1=dunnry01&request=1&utm_source=bbr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=dunnry01&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison

I mean apart from the free throw % disparity, the statistical differences are incremental at best. But then it's also only fair to take the minutes disparity and total of games played (applied for experience and in-game development) to discern that Camaras' situation has been much more favorable in comparison to Dunns, and yet again, the disparity is minimal by a few percentage points at best. I get the frustration over giving up Camara and seeing him blossom with greater opportunities afforded him on that younger team. And yes! It was really stupid for Jones to trade him away just to dump Ayton in that deal too.

This is yet another glaring indictment of Jones as a terrible GM always losing the value equation in trades. But c'mon man, none of this is Dunns' fault in any way. He's been nothing short of everything we've needed towards being an energizing player, exceptional defender, and an all-around great character kid for us in his first frakin' season.

Now yes! I agree that I'd love to have Camara back to possibly create an elite suffocating defensive duo between the two of them. But just like everything else, our front office royally screwed up what could have been a great thing for us. Dunn is just a causal reactionary result of them trying to fix their egregious screw-up! My point in all this is that maybe your anger and frustration are being misdirected at the wrong target when it shouldn't be Dunn at all, but rather our clown show front office instead.


Dunn is just out there always putting his full effort and leaving everything out there on the floor trying to fill the gap that Ishbia and Jones created! And obviously doing pretty well in a poor situation that he did nothing to create. We should be sending all our vitriol to the ones at fault that prevented us from actually having an ELITE DEFENSIVE DUO of Camara and Dunn because they wanted to dump Ayton at all costs and for Nurkic of all players whom they also dumped not long after. It really sucks brother, but it's all on Ishbia and Jones................Our very own front office version of Dumb and Dumber!

The stats may seem similar but the eye test tells me Camara is the superior player in terms of both offense and defense but yes who knows if he might be the same as Camara next season. Time will tell.

You have to take into consideration that Camara is much older than Dunn.

Camara will be 25 years old in May. He is almost 3 years older than Dunn.

Dunn has a higher upside and is more dynamic than Camara.

Regarding their sizes...again, you can imagine Dunn's body in 2-3 years, he is gonna get stronger and he will be smarter avoiding some ticky tack fouls.

CAMARA (23 yo):
6'7” barefoot
220.4 lbs
7'0.5” wingspan
8'11” standing reach
28.5 standing vertical
33 max vertical

DUNN (21 yo):
6′ 6.25” barefoot
213.6 lbs
7′ 1.50” wingspan
8′ 7.00” standing reach
32 standing vert
38.5 max vert

[Saberestar]

Wow, the Lakers with Doncic and LeBron lost at home against the Hornets. I love it lol.

[sunsbg]

As I said after the trade Luka and 40yo Lebron are even worse fit than Booker and Beal. No D, no off ball movement, etc. Watching LA fail will be entertaining.

[Saberestar]

As I said after the trade Luka and 40yo Lebron are even worse fit than Booker and Beal. No D, no off ball movement, etc. Watching LA fail will be entertaining.

They are extremely thin at C.

Jaxon Hayes, Alex Len and Koloko (Two-way) are their only true Cs on the roster. After them they have Markieff Morris and Maxi Kleber who are past their prime PFs.

Markieff is done but MAYBE Kleber can be healthy at some point and he could give them a decent option being 6'9/6'10 and an OK 3p shooter...but doubt it.

At this point they would kill for Nick Richards lol.

[sunsbg]

As I said after the trade Luka and 40yo Lebron are even worse fit than Booker and Beal. No D, no off ball movement, etc. Watching LA fail will be entertaining.

They are extremely thin at C.

Jaxon Hayes, Alex Len and Koloko (Two-way) are their only true Cs on the roster. After them they have Markieff Morris and Maxi Kleber who are past their prime PFs.

Markieff is done but MAYBE Kleber can be healthy at some point and he could give them a decent option being 6'9/6'10 and an OK 3p shooter...but doubt it.

At this point they would kill for Nick Richards lol.

Yes, Luka must be ecstatic to have worse bigs now than he had on Mavs before Lively and Gafford. But even if they had one of these I doubt they win anything.

[Fo-Real]

As I said after the trade Luka and 40yo Lebron are even worse fit than Booker and Beal. No D, no off ball movement, etc. Watching LA fail will be entertaining.

He is hurt all the time, but AD provided a ton of interior defense.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Toumani is the player we wish Dunn could become!

Dunn is a lot smaller than Camara and gambles way too much for fouls by reaching in or having his hands down too often, now this could be fixed in his second season and he could maybe fill out a bit more but it's unrealized potential at this point and I do not consider Dunn untradeable.

Camara is that missing piece for us and it's maddening how JJ and Ishbia were so stupid to give him away for the corpse of Nurkic and Grayson.

I'm sorry man! I've got mad respect for you always! But I just don't understand all the Dunn slander from you. I mean you should understand that the gap you're promoting here just isn't as big as you're making it seem.
https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=ryan-dunn--toumani-camara
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?player_id2=camarto01&player_id1=dunnry01&request=1&utm_source=bbr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=dunnry01&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison

I mean apart from the free throw % disparity, the statistical differences are incremental at best. But then it's also only fair to take the minutes disparity and total of games played (applied for experience and in-game development) to discern that Camaras' situation has been much more favorable in comparison to Dunns, and yet again, the disparity is minimal by a few percentage points at best. I get the frustration over giving up Camara and seeing him blossom with greater opportunities afforded him on that younger team. And yes! It was really stupid for Jones to trade him away just to dump Ayton in that deal too.

This is yet another glaring indictment of Jones as a terrible GM always losing the value equation in trades. But c'mon man, none of this is Dunns' fault in any way. He's been nothing short of everything we've needed towards being an energizing player, exceptional defender, and an all-around great character kid for us in his first frakin' season.

Now yes! I agree that I'd love to have Camara back to possibly create an elite suffocating defensive duo between the two of them. But just like everything else, our front office royally screwed up what could have been a great thing for us. Dunn is just a causal reactionary result of them trying to fix their egregious screw-up! My point in all this is that maybe your anger and frustration are being misdirected at the wrong target when it shouldn't be Dunn at all, but rather our clown show front office instead.


Dunn is just out there always putting his full effort and leaving everything out there on the floor trying to fill the gap that Ishbia and Jones created! And obviously doing pretty well in a poor situation that he did nothing to create. We should be sending all our vitriol to the ones at fault that prevented us from actually having an ELITE DEFENSIVE DUO of Camara and Dunn because they wanted to dump Ayton at all costs and for Nurkic of all players whom they also dumped not long after. It really sucks brother, but it's all on Ishbia and Jones................Our very own front office version of Dumb and Dumber!

The stats may seem similar but the eye test tells me Camara is the superior player in terms of both offense and defense but yes who knows if he might be the same as Camara next season. Time will tell.

Not saying you're wrong at all brother because Toumani surely is currently better and further along. But I believe that situational context is important in comparisons too. For starters, the clear difference between the two players in that Toumani has the benefit of having had a full season more of playing time (123 games to Dunns' 49) and is in an obviously much better situation conducive to his success getting playing time and more "in-game" opportunities to develop. While here despite good showings, Dunn plays only between 5-15 minutes compared to Camaras' 36.8 minutes. They're both solid players with tremendous defensive upside, just on different developmental timelines is all! And I agree with you that time will tell.

[bwgood77]

Just saw Wemby is out for the season. So we probably get another win to give our FO false confidence and the Spurs will probably end up winning the lottery and getting Cooper Flagg.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Just another reason why I think Milwaukee is another legitimate alternative KD option for KD due to their desperation to show Giannis they're still viable and a competitive contender. The things around the framework of a KD trade that I love for this premise would be:

- Kuzma in a scoring role at the 4 for us.
- Portis as a back 4/5 that we've needed for so long. Also on a $13 million expiring.
- Connaughton as a solid vet backup 2 guard option. Also on a $9 million expiring.
- Kevin Porter Jr A solid young combo guard who's cost-controlled and has tremendous upside potential with a per36 of: 14 points/ 10 rebounds/ 8 assists! Near triple-double production.
- Andre Jackson. A young explosively athletic wing/ playmaker with great shooting efficiency and elite defensive potential on a cost-controlled deal. Think of a slightly bigger, more athletic much better shooting version of Okogie.
- Tyler Smith. A really young (20 yrs old) 6'11 power forward with a very smooth game and incredibly high upside on a cost-controlled contract that would be an excellent alternative to Jabari Smith Jr IF Houston were to play hardball over including Smith Jr in a KD trade Package.
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?player_id2=smithja05&player_id1=smithty02&request=1&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=smithty02&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr

Their PER 36 numbers:
Tyler Smith Jr
21 points/ 9 rebounds/ 2 assists/ 1 block/ 1 steal.

Jabari Smith Jr
15 points/ 8.5 rebounds/ 1.6 assists/ 1 block/ 0.7 steals.
- MIL 2031 1st

I have these as my top KD options: (Of course depending upon the value of the package and picks coming back)!!!

1- Houston
KD for Brooks/Landale/Smith Jr/ Sheppard/ PHX 25' 1st/ PHX or DAL 29' 1st (most favorable swap).

2- San Antonio
KD for Vassell/ Barnes/ Sochan/ SAS 25' 1st (10th pick)/ ATL 25' 1st (15th pick).

3- Detroit
KD for Harris/ Thompson/ Fontcchio/ 2 DET 1sts.

4- OKC
KD for Hartenstein/ Wiggins/Dieng/Topic/ LAC 25' 1st/ PHI 25' 1st/ DAL 25' 1st.

5- Minnesota
KD for Randle/ Reid/ Dillingham/ DET 25' 1st (17th pick)/ 32' MIN 1st.

6- Milwaukee
KD for Kuzma/ Portis/ Connaughton/ KPJr/ Jackson/ Smith Jr/ MIL 32' 1st.

7- Miami
KD for Rozier/ Robinson/ Ware/ MIA 29' 1st.
OR
Wiggins/ Robinson/ Jovic/ Larson/ GS 25' 1st/ MIA 29' 1st.

8- Lakers
KD for Hachimura/ Finney Smith/ Reeves/ Knecht/ Reddish/ LAL 31' 1st.

9- New York
KD for Anunoby/ Robinson/ MEM 25' 2nd (56th pick).
OR
Bridges/Robinson/Achiuwa/McBride/ Dadiet/ Huktpori.

10- Dallas
KD for Thompson/ Washington/ Gafford/ Exum/ DAL 25' 1st (18th pick).

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[Ghost of Kleine]

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[Fo-Real]

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Just another reason why I think Milwaukee is another legitimate alternative KD option for KD due to their desperation to show Giannis they're still viable and a competitive contender. The things around the framework of a KD trade that I love for this premise would be:

- Kuzma in a scoring role at the 4 for us.
- Portis as a back 4/5 that we've needed for so long. Also on a $13 million expiring.
- Connaughton as a solid vet backup 2 guard option. Also on a $9 million expiring.
- Kevin Porter Jr A solid young combo guard who's cost-controlled and has tremendous upside potential with a per36 of: 14 points/ 10 rebounds/ 8 assists! Near triple-double production.
- Andre Jackson. A young explosively athletic wing/ playmaker with great shooting efficiency and elite defensive potential on a cost-controlled deal. Think of a slightly bigger, more athletic much better shooting version of Okogie.
- Tyler Smith. A really young (20 yrs old) 6'11 power forward with a very smooth game and incredibly high upside on a cost-controlled contract that would be an excellent alternative to Jabari Smith Jr IF Houston were to play hardball over including Smith Jr in a KD trade Package.
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?player_id2=smithja05&player_id1=smithty02&request=1&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=smithty02&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=bbr

Their PER 36 numbers:
Tyler Smith Jr
21 points/ 9 rebounds/ 2 assists/ 1 block/ 1 steal.

Jabari Smith Jr
15 points/ 8.5 rebounds/ 1.6 assists/ 1 block/ 0.7 steals.
- MIL 2031 1st

I have these as my top KD options: (Of course depending upon the value of the package and picks coming back)!!!

1- Houston
KD for Brooks/Landale/Smith Jr/ Sheppard/ PHX 25' 1st/ PHX or DAL 29' 1st (most favorable swap).

2- San Antonio
KD for Vassell/ Barnes/ Sochan/ SAS 25' 1st (10th pick)/ ATL 25' 1st (15th pick).

3- Detroit
KD for Harris/ Thompson/ Fontcchio/ 2 DET 1sts.

4- OKC
KD for Hartenstein/ Wiggins/Dieng/Topic/ LAC 25' 1st/ PHI 25' 1st/ DAL 25' 1st.

5- Minnesota
KD for Randle/ Reid/ Dillingham/ DET 25' 1st (17th pick)/ 32' MIN 1st.

6- Milwaukee
KD for Kuzma/ Portis/ Connaughton/ KPJr/ Jackson/ Smith Jr/ MIL 32' 1st.

7- Miami
KD for Rozier/ Robinson/ Ware/ MIA 29' 1st.
OR
Wiggins/ Robinson/ Jovic/ Larson/ GS 25' 1st/ MIA 29' 1st.

8- Lakers
KD for Hachimura/ Finney Smith/ Reeves/ Knecht/ Reddish/ LAL 31' 1st.

9- New York
KD for Anunoby/ Robinson/ MEM 25' 2nd (56th pick).
OR
Bridges/Robinson/Achiuwa/McBride/ Dadiet/ Huktpori.

10- Dallas
KD for Thompson/ Washington/ Gafford/ Exum/ DAL 25' 1st (18th pick).

NY.... BRING MIKAL BACK!

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[Ghost of Kleine]

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[Ghost of Kleine]

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Shady azz corrupt franchise that bend or operate outside of the rules because they're thee NBA's darling flagship franchise and no one holds them accountable.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Man! Would I love it if Doncic just chose a 1 and 1 deal opting to become an unrestricted free agent in 2026? And then just went elsewhere just to spurn Harrison and Pelinka for trading him! Makes a potential KD trade to LA all the more enticing if we could pull all of their depth, young talent, and last remaining pick for 2031