Moderators: bwgood77, lilfishi22, Qwigglez
Jstock12 wrote:Funny how people are writing off a 20 year old 7-footer with range. I'm obviously in the minority, but I think Bender can still become a very solid starter in this league in his prime. Something like 16ppg/8rpg/2apg with 46/38/80 shooting splits + above average defense.
lilfishi22 wrote:5.38% of the cap doesn't sound like much but $6m is a significant factor in a near max contract. It's 20-25% of a $25-30m a year contract
bwgood77 wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:5.38% of the cap doesn't sound like much but $6m is a significant factor in a near max contract. It's 20-25% of a $25-30m a year contract
They already can have 23-35 million in space (the higher # if they waive/stretch Anderson).
lilfishi22 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:5.38% of the cap doesn't sound like much but $6m is a significant factor in a near max contract. It's 20-25% of a $25-30m a year contract
They already can have 23-35 million in space (the higher # if they waive/stretch Anderson).
Are you saying $6m which accounts for 17% of a $35m deal isn't significant? Especially when that 17% hasn't consistently proven to be an NBA player as yet
bwgood77 wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:
They already can have 23-35 million in space (the higher # if they waive/stretch Anderson).
Are you saying $6m which accounts for 17% of a $35m deal isn't significant? Especially when that 17% hasn't consistently proven to be an NBA player as yet
If I thought we needed $29-$41 million I'd consider it a factor. I don't think he'd be particularly hard to trade if we needed either. Just think it's completely dumb to cut a guy you draft knowing he's likely a 3-4 year project guy who is still 20 who has already had two coaches, barely played as a rookie, in part due to injury, had no training camp last year and then had to try and learn a new system mid season but really didn't get much more responsibility than shooting 3s which he did well at...and we desperately need it.
Now he has a real coach to work with him and utilize him in a real system and we have limited depth and defense at the 4/5 positions...Ariza, Anderson, Holmes and Chandler are all likely gone next year, with the lone exception maybe being Anderson who cannot play full time, particularly with our defensive problems. I think he deserves a chance as our young PF on the roster who we can control for like 5-7 more years if we wanted and all the others are expiring or Anderson, who has really declined and is overpaid and should probably be waived.
We will have enough for a max guy, and we may have a hard time getting one. Cap space shouldn't be a problem. It's too early to give up on him. People give up on him. I almost always give rookies, especially ones with possibly decent to high upside, their rookie contract to prove themself, especially if they are younger and you took the guy going in knowing it might take a while, and then add on top of that, 3 coaches, one of them being Watson, who never did anything with him, because he "loved" Chriss and told him so, and because he had to transition to a new coach during his first real year playing.
A lot of players don't really improve until year 3, and this effectively is really his second year where he will play.
lilfishi22 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:Are you saying $6m which accounts for 17% of a $35m deal isn't significant? Especially when that 17% hasn't consistently proven to be an NBA player as yet
If I thought we needed $29-$41 million I'd consider it a factor. I don't think he'd be particularly hard to trade if we needed either. Just think it's completely dumb to cut a guy you draft knowing he's likely a 3-4 year project guy who is still 20 who has already had two coaches, barely played as a rookie, in part due to injury, had no training camp last year and then had to try and learn a new system mid season but really didn't get much more responsibility than shooting 3s which he did well at...and we desperately need it.
Now he has a real coach to work with him and utilize him in a real system and we have limited depth and defense at the 4/5 positions...Ariza, Anderson, Holmes and Chandler are all likely gone next year, with the lone exception maybe being Anderson who cannot play full time, particularly with our defensive problems. I think he deserves a chance as our young PF on the roster who we can control for like 5-7 more years if we wanted and all the others are expiring or Anderson, who has really declined and is overpaid and should probably be waived.
We will have enough for a max guy, and we may have a hard time getting one. Cap space shouldn't be a problem. It's too early to give up on him. People give up on him. I almost always give rookies, especially ones with possibly decent to high upside, their rookie contract to prove themself, especially if they are younger and you took the guy going in knowing it might take a while, and then add on top of that, 3 coaches, one of them being Watson, who never did anything with him, because he "loved" Chriss and told him so, and because he had to transition to a new coach during his first real year playing.
A lot of players don't really improve until year 3, and this effectively is really his second year where he will play.
I just don't have anymore excuses I can give to the guy anymore. He's either an NBA player or he isn't. We can't keep every prospect we draft and when they aren't exactly cheap.
Not saying he should be cut now but perhaps he isn't worth $6m in his 4th year.
bwgood77 wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:
If I thought we needed $29-$41 million I'd consider it a factor. I don't think he'd be particularly hard to trade if we needed either. Just think it's completely dumb to cut a guy you draft knowing he's likely a 3-4 year project guy who is still 20 who has already had two coaches, barely played as a rookie, in part due to injury, had no training camp last year and then had to try and learn a new system mid season but really didn't get much more responsibility than shooting 3s which he did well at...and we desperately need it.
Now he has a real coach to work with him and utilize him in a real system and we have limited depth and defense at the 4/5 positions...Ariza, Anderson, Holmes and Chandler are all likely gone next year, with the lone exception maybe being Anderson who cannot play full time, particularly with our defensive problems. I think he deserves a chance as our young PF on the roster who we can control for like 5-7 more years if we wanted and all the others are expiring or Anderson, who has really declined and is overpaid and should probably be waived.
We will have enough for a max guy, and we may have a hard time getting one. Cap space shouldn't be a problem. It's too early to give up on him. People give up on him. I almost always give rookies, especially ones with possibly decent to high upside, their rookie contract to prove themself, especially if they are younger and you took the guy going in knowing it might take a while, and then add on top of that, 3 coaches, one of them being Watson, who never did anything with him, because he "loved" Chriss and told him so, and because he had to transition to a new coach during his first real year playing.
A lot of players don't really improve until year 3, and this effectively is really his second year where he will play.
I just don't have anymore excuses I can give to the guy anymore. He's either an NBA player or he isn't. We can't keep every prospect we draft and when they aren't exactly cheap.
Not saying he should be cut now but perhaps he isn't worth $6m in his 4th year.
You haven't seen his 3rd year or even really a 2nd year year yet. Everyone said we shouldn't try and develop 2 young PFS even though Chris got much more opportunity and now we traded one.
lilfishi22 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:I just don't have anymore excuses I can give to the guy anymore. He's either an NBA player or he isn't. We can't keep every prospect we draft and when they aren't exactly cheap.
Not saying he should be cut now but perhaps he isn't worth $6m in his 4th year.
You haven't seen his 3rd year or even really a 2nd year year yet. Everyone said we shouldn't try and develop 2 young PFS even though Chris got much more opportunity and now we traded one.
You're talking about his rookie year like it was a Ben Simmons redshirt rookie season. He still played 43 games and averaged 13mpg before he went out with ankle surgery. He showed nothing, not because he didn't play but because he wasn't very good. Then his 2nd year rolled around, I had a bit more hope that he would be healthy (he was) and that he would be productive (he wasn't). Looking all of last season season, his only positives were his league average 3PT%. This is his 3rd season and he needs to impress.
I like Bender's potential player profile and he was the one I wanted to keep between him and Chriss. But he's just not very good. I'm happy to give him this year to prove himself as an NBA caliber player under Igor but I'm not gonna give him anymore excuses. I'm not going to adjust his timeline based on 'not playing much' or the coaching changes. You're either an NBA player who can adjust and adapt to changes or you're not an NBA player because every player has to deal with things like this. And let's not kid ourselves, he's been deadweight from a money perspective and the only reason no one talks about it is because we've been carrying a positive salary cap balance and we haven't needed every cent of that cap space as yet. There's little value in his contract and he's still on his rookie deal. The last time I thought someone was overpaid on their rookie contract, he was selected #1 overall in 2013.
lilfishi22 wrote:I'm just saying Simmons actually didn't play his (redshirt) rookie season because he was injured all year. Bender actually played and wasn't very good. Not actually comparing them as prospects. Jackson wasn't very good from an impact perspective in his rookie year but he showed he can produce. 19/6/2.5 post-ASB is a legit line even if it wasn't very efficient. So for him, it's not a matter of production, it's a matter of figuring out when to turn it on, when to slow things down and picking shots.
To me, Bender hasn't shown enough to warrant picking up his 4th year option.
bwgood77 wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:I'm just saying Simmons actually didn't play his (redshirt) rookie season because he was injured all year. Bender actually played and wasn't very good. Not actually comparing them as prospects. Jackson wasn't very good from an impact perspective in his rookie year but he showed he can produce. 19/6/2.5 post-ASB is a legit line even if it wasn't very efficient. So for him, it's not a matter of production, it's a matter of figuring out when to turn it on, when to slow things down and picking shots.
To me, Bender hasn't shown enough to warrant picking up his 4th year option.
Scoring points on putrid efficiency isn't legit. It hurts the team immensely.
lilfishi22 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:I'm just saying Simmons actually didn't play his (redshirt) rookie season because he was injured all year. Bender actually played and wasn't very good. Not actually comparing them as prospects. Jackson wasn't very good from an impact perspective in his rookie year but he showed he can produce. 19/6/2.5 post-ASB is a legit line even if it wasn't very efficient. So for him, it's not a matter of production, it's a matter of figuring out when to turn it on, when to slow things down and picking shots.
To me, Bender hasn't shown enough to warrant picking up his 4th year option.
Scoring points on putrid efficiency isn't legit. It hurts the team immensely.
I said it wasn't very good from an impact perspective but he showed he can produce and that's what you hope to get from rookies. With rookies you want to see them be able to do things which were considered a strength coming from college. JJ showed everything from a strength perspective and everything from a weakness perspective. So his next step is to work on being more efficient, making better decisions working on his skills/weakness; all of which are things that generally come with time and experience. At the very least, JJ has shown he can score, rebound, pass and defend.
Bender has only shown he can shoot from the 3, he has so much catching up to do and he'll be 21 in a month's time. JJ was already 20 when last season season began so he's more experienced going into his rookie season whereas Bender is going into his 3rd season at 21 in mid-Nov so to me, it's a serious cause for concern if he's unable to show he's more than just the shooter he was in year 1 and 2.
lilfishi22 wrote:Bender is the perfect guy next to Ayton (and Doncic too really). There's a reason why he still has value despite his weak attitude and overall lack of aggressiveness. I think he can start next to Ayton, giving the Suns two 7 footers who can move like a guard, switch defensively,spread the floor (Ayton too hopefully), has great passing skills (Bender has ran a couple PnR's), have complementary games and if these two build chemistry, they would be near unstoppable. Bender would open up the lane so much for Ayton to feast in the lane.
lilfishi22 wrote:I'm a fan of Bender. I've been pro-Bender over Chriss since day 1 and even though I wans't excited about the pick, I could see where he could be valuable.lilfishi22 wrote:Bender is the perfect guy next to Ayton (and Doncic too really). There's a reason why he still has value despite his weak attitude and overall lack of aggressiveness. I think he can start next to Ayton, giving the Suns two 7 footers who can move like a guard, switch defensively,spread the floor (Ayton too hopefully), has great passing skills (Bender has ran a couple PnR's), have complementary games and if these two build chemistry, they would be near unstoppable. Bender would open up the lane so much for Ayton to feast in the lane.
I want him to succeed and show something real this season because I really do believe he's the perfect big next to a dominant C like Ayton. But given how little he's shown so far, how little he's seemed to have improved over summer, how much he cost and how much of his game is still 'potential', it doesn't matter how much of a fan I am of him, he has to show objectively he's an NBA player for me to support keeping him on the roster.
bwgood77 wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:I'm a fan of Bender. I've been pro-Bender over Chriss since day 1 and even though I wans't excited about the pick, I could see where he could be valuable.lilfishi22 wrote:Bender is the perfect guy next to Ayton (and Doncic too really). There's a reason why he still has value despite his weak attitude and overall lack of aggressiveness. I think he can start next to Ayton, giving the Suns two 7 footers who can move like a guard, switch defensively,spread the floor (Ayton too hopefully), has great passing skills (Bender has ran a couple PnR's), have complementary games and if these two build chemistry, they would be near unstoppable. Bender would open up the lane so much for Ayton to feast in the lane.
I want him to succeed and show something real this season because I really do believe he's the perfect big next to a dominant C like Ayton. But given how little he's shown so far, how little he's seemed to have improved over summer, how much he cost and how much of his game is still 'potential', it doesn't matter how much of a fan I am of him, he has to show objectively he's an NBA player for me to support keeping him on the roster.
Strange you wrote that in the offseason and after a few games trying to learn Koko's system playing with mostly players trying to just make the roster outside of Ayton, you want to not pick up his option.
lilfishi22 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:I'm a fan of Bender. I've been pro-Bender over Chriss since day 1 and even though I wans't excited about the pick, I could see where he could be valuable.
I want him to succeed and show something real this season because I really do believe he's the perfect big next to a dominant C like Ayton. But given how little he's shown so far, how little he's seemed to have improved over summer, how much he cost and how much of his game is still 'potential', it doesn't matter how much of a fan I am of him, he has to show objectively he's an NBA player for me to support keeping him on the roster.
Strange you wrote that in the offseason and after a few games trying to learn Koko's system playing with mostly players trying to just make the roster outside of Ayton, you want to not pick up his option.
It's not strange at all, I didn't think picking up the 4th year option was something we should necessarily do even then. I like Bender but after being invisible in his 3rd SL and after doing damn near nothing in the preseason, I'd rather not pick up his option and work out another way retain him for cheaper