The One And Only Offseason Thread 4

[paulpressey25]

What do you think, trying to be fair from both sides (which is what I was trying to do above) is an offer you feel Phx should accept for a trade?

Hard to assess what is fair for PHX without knowing how Suns brass view Bledsoe signed to big contract. I think we all agree that Bledsoe signed to something like 3/$36 is huge value. But when you push that to 4/$63 all of a sudden his value as an asset takes a hit because of his injury history in relation to contract size.

That is the dilemma. The 4/$63 Bledsoe isn't worth as much to you guys OR the Bucks compared to what Bledsoe's talent and potential are on the court, if contracts weren't an issue. This is classic NBA overpay time that teams get crunched on.

Tim Thomas was a massive asset for us in 1999-2000 based on his talent and potential. But because he hit FA right after his half season breakout, we were forced to sign him to 6/$72 to keep him from the Heat and Bulls (TT was a FA and not an RFA). Tim Thomas on a 6/$72 contract is no longer a huge asset that teams would give up tons in trade for. The contract can increase or depress a players trade value. Until Bledose proves he can repeat his play of last year for 82 games, what teams are willing to give up won't be huge windfalls for the Suns.

[WeekapaugGroove]

First, we would likely need two unprotected firsts, and if not unprotected, at least low protection like top 3.
.

This is where some in the Suns fanbase are incongruent. Unprotected number ones coming from 15 win teams like the Bucks are for packages involving players like Kevin Love. And if that's the case, the Suns should have no problem offering Bledsoe 4/$63. If he's good enough for a great trade package, he's worth at least 4/$63. I think you guys need to up your minds, because Kyle Lowry (this board's analog for Bledsoe's contract) in trade doesn't bring back what you guys are asking for as it relates to Bledsoe.

You do hold all the cards in the sense that Bledsoe goes nowhere next year unless the Suns agree to it. That said, we've seen this movie too many times before in Milwaukee where a FA or RFA has one good season and then holds the team hostage for a huge contract. In the end, the player gets bitter, stops working out and then if the dispute is settled, rushes back and gets injured because they didn't work out all summer while the contract mess took place.

I'm not a fan of a CBA that allows one year wonders to get paid big, but unfortunately that is the system.

the thing is if Bledsoe has any brains he needs to be working extra hard right and now if he would truly consider taking the QO. If he goes that route he would need to come to camp with a good attitude and really ball out next season to try and get paid. A pouty out of shape Bledsoe loses playing time and money and probably loses his agent some clients for the bad advise.

Letting him play on the qo isn't good for the suns but it's still better than having a guy like ersans salary on the books next summer or having one cheap year of a guy like knight and having to pay him next summer. It's better to have the cheap yr of Bledsoe and if he kills it and proves he deserves a max deal they will have the advantage of being able to offer more money and a 5th yr next summer. If he doesn't than so be it and they move on with a ton of financial flexibility.

I'm not saying a s&t won't happen but it would need to make sense.

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[RRyder823]

Nash, Houston 1st, the top 5 protection removed from our 2015 pick. Let's get it on.

So in other words a pick in the 8-12 range at best and another pick in the 15-17 range....Ehh all a preference I guess and don't think that's all that bad value if the Suns get to the point where they're dead set on shipping him out but I still don't do it if I'm the Suns. Come to think of it just a bad deal both ways. Neither of those picks are likely going to be all that high. I still believe a healthy Mamba counts for more then a few wins. Also I don't think the Lakers touch that deal either. I like Bledsoe but I'm pretty sure they want as much cap room as they can get to make a push at the Westbrook and Durants of the world in a few years

[bwgood77]

What do you think, trying to be fair from both sides (which is what I was trying to do above) is an offer you feel Phx should accept for a trade?

Hard to assess what is fair for PHX without knowing how Suns brass view Bledsoe signed to big contract. I think we all agree that Bledsoe signed to something like 3/$36 is huge value. But when you push that to 4/$63 all of a sudden his value as an asset takes a hit because of his injury history in relation to contract size.

That is the dilemma. The 4/$63 Bledsoe isn't worth as much to you guys OR the Bucks compared to what Bledsoe's talent and potential are on the court, if contracts weren't an issue. This is classic NBA overpay time that teams get crunched on.

Tim Thomas was a massive asset for us in 1999-2000 based on his talent and potential. But because he hit FA right after his half season breakout, we were forced to sign him to 6/$72 to keep him from the Heat and Bulls (TT was a FA and not an RFA). Tim Thomas on a 6/$72 contract is no longer a huge asset that teams would give up tons in trade for. The contract can increase or depress a players trade value. Until Bledose proves he can repeat his play of last year for 82 games, what teams are willing to give up won't be huge windfalls for the Suns.

That's a good point. I forgot about Middleton. Maybe instead of two firsts, throw him in with the outlined deal above, nice size as a SG for us, and just the 2015 top 3 protected pick.

[bwgood77]

First, we would likely need two unprotected firsts, and if not unprotected, at least low protection like top 3.
.

This is where some in the Suns fanbase are incongruent. Unprotected number ones coming from 15 win teams like the Bucks are for packages involving players like Kevin Love. And if that's the case, the Suns should have no problem offering Bledsoe 4/$63. If he's good enough for a great trade package, he's worth at least 4/$63. I think you guys need to up your minds, because Kyle Lowry (this board's analog for Bledsoe's contract) in trade doesn't bring back what you guys are asking for as it relates to Bledsoe.

You do hold all the cards in the sense that Bledsoe goes nowhere next year unless the Suns agree to it. That said, we've seen this movie too many times before in Milwaukee where a FA or RFA has one good season and then holds the team hostage for a huge contract. In the end, the player gets bitter, stops working out and then if the dispute is settled, rushes back and gets injured because they didn't work out all summer while the contract mess took place.

I'm not a fan of a CBA that allows one year wonders to get paid big, but unfortunately that is the system.

the thing is if Bledsoe has any brains he needs to be working extra hard right and now if he would truly consider taking the QO. If he goes that route he would need to come to camp with a good attitude and really ball out next season to try and get paid. A pouty out of shape Bledsoe loses playing time and money and probably loses his agent some clients for the bad advise.

Letting him play on the qo isn't good for the suns but it's still better than having a guy like ersans salary on the books next summer or having one cheap year of a guy like knight and having to pay him next summer. It's better to have the cheap yr of Bledsoe and if he kills it and proves he deserves a max deal they will have the advantage of being able to offer more money and a 5th yr next summer. If he doesn't than so be it and they move on with a ton of financial flexibility.

I'm not saying a s&t won't happen but it would need to make sense.

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If you just plan on having Knight for a year and letting him go and can also get Middleton who is a great three pt shooter swing guy with upside, for the future, especially if Green leaves after getting a great offer, that might alleviate the Knight contract concern.

[Sunsdeuce]

So reading the bucks forum. They think we want every asset possible in a sign and trade deal. We want as fans something of worth. It's as simple as that. We don't want the bucks leftovers. Knight, ersan, and Henson are players that arent exactly "assets." Those are players the bucks would love to dump on someone but other teams don't see value in them.

To make a fair deal, there has to be some picks involved.


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[bwgood77]

Nash, Houston 1st, the top 5 protection removed from our 2015 pick. Let's get it on.

So in other words a pick in the 8-12 range at best and another pick in the 15-17 range....Ehh all a preference I guess and don't think that's all that bad value if the Suns get to the point where they're dead set on shipping him out but I still don't do it if I'm the Suns. Come to think of it just a bad deal both ways. Neither of those picks are likely going to be all that high. I still believe a healthy Mamba counts for more then a few wins. Also I don't think the Lakers touch that deal either. I like Bledsoe but I'm pretty sure they want as much cap room as they can get to make a push at the Westbrook and Durants of the world in a few years

You really think the Lakers are in the 8-12 range next year? I guess with Bledsoe they might be, but the west is so tough I don't know how many teams they are better than and they are full of injury prone players.

[RRyder823]

This is where some in the Suns fanbase are incongruent. Unprotected number ones coming from 15 win teams like the Bucks are for packages involving players like Kevin Love. And if that's the case, the Suns should have no problem offering Bledsoe 4/$63. If he's good enough for a great trade package, he's worth at least 4/$63. I think you guys need to up your minds, because Kyle Lowry (this board's analog for Bledsoe's contract) in trade doesn't bring back what you guys are asking for as it relates to Bledsoe.

You do hold all the cards in the sense that Bledsoe goes nowhere next year unless the Suns agree to it. That said, we've seen this movie too many times before in Milwaukee where a FA or RFA has one good season and then holds the team hostage for a huge contract. In the end, the player gets bitter, stops working out and then if the dispute is settled, rushes back and gets injured because they didn't work out all summer while the contract mess took place.

I'm not a fan of a CBA that allows one year wonders to get paid big, but unfortunately that is the system.

the thing is if Bledsoe has any brains he needs to be working extra hard right and now if he would truly consider taking the QO. If he goes that route he would need to come to camp with a good attitude and really ball out next season to try and get paid. A pouty out of shape Bledsoe loses playing time and money and probably loses his agent some clients for the bad advise.

Letting him play on the qo isn't good for the suns but it's still better than having a guy like ersans salary on the books next summer or having one cheap year of a guy like knight and having to pay him next summer. It's better to have the cheap yr of Bledsoe and if he kills it and proves he deserves a max deal they will have the advantage of being able to offer more money and a 5th yr next summer. If he doesn't than so be it and they move on with a ton of financial flexibility.

I'm not saying a s&t won't happen but it would need to make sense.

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If you just plan on having Knight for a year and letting him go and can also get Middleton who is a great three pt shooter swing guy with upside, for the future, especially if Green leaves after getting a great offer, that might alleviate the Knight contract concern.

So are u saying Knight, Middleton and a top 3 protected 1st would be enough in essence outside of any potential contract filler to make it work? Just trying to get a guage

[lilfishi22]

Nash, Houston 1st, the top 5 protection removed from our 2015 pick. Let's get it on.

So in other words a pick in the 8-12 range at best and another pick in the 15-17 range....Ehh all a preference I guess and don't think that's all that bad value if the Suns get to the point where they're dead set on shipping him out but I still don't do it if I'm the Suns. Come to think of it just a bad deal both ways. Neither of those picks are likely going to be all that high. I still believe a healthy Mamba counts for more then a few wins. Also I don't think the Lakers touch that deal either. I like Bledsoe but I'm pretty sure they want as much cap room as they can get to make a push at the Westbrook and Durants of the world in a few years

McD isn't in the business of getting fleeced. We're not going there and certainly not with the Lakers.

[Sunsdeuce]

Nash, Houston 1st, the top 5 protection removed from our 2015 pick, and Randell. Let's get it on.

Fixed.


Anyway, so your offer is basically a retired player and a late pick. Hope you were just joking.


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[RRyder823]

Nash, Houston 1st, the top 5 protection removed from our 2015 pick. Let's get it on.

So in other words a pick in the 8-12 range at best and another pick in the 15-17 range....Ehh all a preference I guess and don't think that's all that bad value if the Suns get to the point where they're dead set on shipping him out but I still don't do it if I'm the Suns. Come to think of it just a bad deal both ways. Neither of those picks are likely going to be all that high. I still believe a healthy Mamba counts for more then a few wins. Also I don't think the Lakers touch that deal either. I like Bledsoe but I'm pretty sure they want as much cap room as they can get to make a push at the Westbrook and Durants of the world in a few years

You really think the Lakers are in the 8-12 range next year? I guess with Bledsoe they might be, but the west is so tough I don't know how many teams they are better than and they are full of injury prone players.

They picked 7th this year with Kobe sitting out pretty much the entire time. Losing Gasol hurts no doubt but even Kobe in his current state can will the Lakers to a few more wins. I still got respect for the Mamba

[DRK]

Bledsoe can go ride a horse.

He and his agent obviously have no idea how the market works, and like a child, and crying about it.

Cry about it EB, you little bitch. It aint getting you nowhere

[WeekapaugGroove]

Middleton is also a rfa next year like knight. Henson has two yr on his rookie deal. I have my doubts he could play the 4 in the suns system but who knows if mcd likes him.

I'd do it for sure if the bucks threw in a first rounder with knight and Henson or Middleton but that seems pretty steep on their end.

Shoot who knows if the bucks are even willing to pay Bledsoe a max deal.

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[bwgood77]

So are u saying Knight, Middleton and a top 3 protected 1st would be enough in essence outside of any potential contract filler to make it work? Just trying to get a guage

I doubt that would be enough for most fans here or the Suns FO, but that wouldn't be a terrible deal. Earlier I was trying to match salaries (but I guess that wouldn't be necessary with two teams under the cap) and had Ersan and Zaza there.

Not sure if they'd want Zaza or not. We could use a nice big rebounding center for a year or two, even if he only played 10-15 minutes a game, but I don't know if they'd want that money on the books next year.

Ersan definitely fits if he is good, but definitely a net negative if he is the last year guy....so I don't know how that would be viewed either...that could be a net negative.

So I was thinking those four players and a pick, but actually that probably gives our team too many players. The deal you mentioned gives us a ton of cap space next summer, a decent third combo guard, and a good young swing man to replace Green/Knight if we want or if needed if those guys get better offers than we pay.

So imo, those guys and a pick, giving us max cap space next summer in the process, would really alleviate losing Bledsoe to some degree. I don't think the Suns would do it unless they just get really sick of this Bledsoe thing and value max cap space and the ability to give Dragic a max next summer if needed AND have max cap space next summer to pursue possibly Love, but also Aldridge, Gasol, Jordan if they want, etc.

[SunsFanSSOL]

All these SnT's other teams fans are proposing are absolute sh*t.

[RRyder823]

So are u saying Knight, Middleton and a top 3 protected 1st would be enough in essence outside of any potential contract filler to make it work? Just trying to get a guage

I doubt that would be enough for most fans here or the Suns FO, but that wouldn't be a terrible deal. Earlier I was trying to match salaries (but I guess that wouldn't be necessary with two teams under the cap) and had Ersan and Zaza there.

Not sure if they'd want Zaza or not. We could use a nice big rebounding center for a year or two, even if he only played 10-15 minutes a game, but I don't know if they'd want that money on the books next year.

Ersan definitely fits if he is good, but definitely a net negative if he is the last year guy....so I don't know how that would be viewed either...that could be a net negative.

So I was thinking those four players and a pick, but actually that probably gives our team too many players. The deal you mentioned gives us a ton of cap space next summer, a decent third combo guard, and a good young swing man to replace Green/Knight if we want or if needed if those guys get better offers than we pay.

So imo, those guys and a pick, giving us max cap space next summer in the process, would really alleviate losing Bledsoe to some degree. I don't think the Suns would do it unless they just get really sick of this Bledsoe thing and value max cap space and the ability to give Dragic a max next summer if needed AND have max cap space next summer to pursue possibly Love, but also Aldridge, Gasol, Jordan if they want, etc.

Agreed. Also I think your dead on in your last paragraph. It would boil down to if the suns felt they really wanted to move him and how much they value cap space when it comes to going after FA..... I will say this though. Pretty much any deal that happens there's going to be fans on both sides b!$%#ing and moaning about either giving up too much or not getting enough in return

[WeekapaugGroove]

^^ for sure. Bledsoes a polarizing figure around here no matter what the outcome to this situation there will be plenty of people bitching.

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[JDLAW]

All these SnT's other teams fans are proposing are absolute sh*t.

++ 1

Some of the S&Ts proposed by Suns fans are equally Sh*T.

If the Bucks are this interested, they can simply offer up assets (draft choices) to move a player to another team to obtain cap space to make the Max offer. We'll decide whether to match or not. Ask yourself why this has not happened if they have the pitched interest some Bucks fans think they have. Suns should not and will not take the bad players and contracts off that team.

[bwgood77]

All these SnT's other teams fans are proposing are absolute sh*t.

++ 1

Some of the S&Ts proposed by Suns fans are equally Sh*T.

If the Bucks are this interested, they can simply offer up assets (draft choices) to move a player to another team to obtain cap space to make the Max offer. We'll decide whether to match or not. Ask yourself why this has not happened if they have the pitched interest some Bucks fans think they have. Suns should not and will not take the bad players and contracts off that team.

Well in all fairness Knight and Middleton are not bad contracts at all (they both become RFAs next summer and you let Knight walk and keep Middleton if you want. Add a first rounder (likely to be top 10) and they are fed up with Bledsoe's agent and we are in late September (all conditions I outlined above) and something like this is not entirely unreasonable, because it gives the Suns max cap space next summer, the ability to max Dragic as well, a third combo guard for now, and a very good young SG/SF for insurance if Green leaves.

Would I make that deal now? Hell no, but in two months I probably would.

[JDLAW]

What do you think, trying to be fair from both sides (which is what I was trying to do above) is an offer you feel Phx should accept for a trade?

Hard to assess what is fair for PHX without knowing how Suns brass view Bledsoe signed to big contract. I think we all agree that Bledsoe signed to something like 3/$36 is huge value. But when you push that to 4/$63 all of a sudden his value as an asset takes a hit because of his injury history in relation to contract size.

That is the dilemma. The 4/$63 Bledsoe isn't worth as much to you guys OR the Bucks compared to what Bledsoe's talent and potential are on the court, if contracts weren't an issue. This is classic NBA overpay time that teams get crunched on.

Tim Thomas was a massive asset for us in 1999-2000 based on his talent and potential. But because he hit FA right after his half season breakout, we were forced to sign him to 6/$72 to keep him from the Heat and Bulls (TT was a FA and not an RFA). Tim Thomas on a 6/$72 contract is no longer a huge asset that teams would give up tons in trade for. The contract can increase or depress a players trade value. Until Bledose proves he can repeat his play of last year for 82 games, what teams are willing to give up won't be huge windfalls for the Suns.

That's a good point. I forgot about Middleton. Maybe instead of two firsts, throw him in with the outlined deal above, nice size as a SG for us, and just the 2015 top 3 protected pick.

I see you've been on the Milwaukee board talking to the crazy and irrational. Good luck with that because as you know they are in the driver's seat. They'll dictate terms to the Suns and give us bad contracts and players off their scintillating 15 win team for a potential star player.

They talk a big game but when it comes to taking the action to clear salary to give that max offer sheet, they do nothing but tell use they have not completed the Bayless deal. As if that makes a difference. They have just over $10M in cap space and need about $5M not counting Bayless. Why have they not moved Iliysova to get that cap space, I am sure it'll only cost them a minimally protected 1st. Maybe they can move Mayo, it'll cost them the same. What are they afraid of? Frankly they are getting tiresome.

Think a southern man, like Bledsoe, truly wants to be in the bitter cold of a Milwaukee winter? You have to be careful about using a team for leverage if you truly do not want to be there.