Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continues

[RunDogGun]

i'd say they're comparable but in the same sense that Disneyland is comparable to Universal Studios.

I mean, they are similar to each other and they probably cost similar amounts but one is worth more than the other and it's an easy choice for me.

I put up their stats, and if you didn't look at the name, there isn't much difference between the two. Now your opinion, because you know what one of the players can do on your team, might be bias, but it is more like Disneyland vs Disneyworld. I'll let you choose who is who.

as Hurricane pointed out, Bledsoe's greatest strength is his defense, which is elite. i don't think that shows up as prominently in statistics as offensive contributions, where lowry and bledsoe are admittedly similar.

the stats also don't express the difference in potential.

if you think it's a toss-up between Lowry and Bledsoe, then that's reasonable and I won't try to persuade you. but i think Bledsoe is a markedly better player/prospect and so if Lowry's contract set the market, then I would expect Bledsoe to receive more.

I didn't watch a lot of Lowry, to make a choice, and it wasn't implying one was better or worse, so there isn't a need to sway me to a side. All I've said is that the stats are very similar, and there is no stat that I've seen that would make one player hands down "chasm" difference. Maybe a step difference, but they both have that in different areas.

Lowry's contract seemed to set the market value, coupled with the ability to stay healthy throughout that contract. But it is what it is. Now if Bledsoe played the entire season, without the same knee blowing out that went out just two years ago, I could see he would be worth more. But that isn't the case here.

As for Lowry's attitude towards his previous coach, I would love to see how Bledsoe would have reacted if when he came back from injury, we decided to finish the season with him coming off the bench.

[bwgood77]

i'd say they're comparable but in the same sense that Disneyland is comparable to Universal Studios.

I mean, they are similar to each other and they probably cost similar amounts but one is worth more than the other and it's an easy choice for me.

I put up their stats, and if you didn't look at the name, there isn't much difference between the two. Now your opinion, because you know what one of the players can do on your team, might be bias, but it is more like Disneyland vs Disneyworld. I'll let you choose who is who.

as Hurricane pointed out, Bledsoe's greatest strength is his defense, which is elite. i don't think that shows up as prominently in statistics as offensive contributions, where lowry and bledsoe are admittedly similar.

the stats also don't express the difference in potential.

if you think it's a toss-up between Lowry and Bledsoe, then that's reasonable and I won't try to persuade you. but i think Bledsoe is a markedly better player/prospect and so if Lowry's contract set the market, then I would expect Bledsoe to receive more.

There is also the fact that Lowry has demonstrated he can be the sole ballhandler on the floor and lead a team. Bledsoe hasn't been tested in that way yet. That's kind of a big question mark. Are you confident he would be a better team leader and sole pg running a team than Lowry?

Obviously that doesn't matter to the Suns if they keep Dragic and IT, but to other teams it could be a valid concern that could impact his market value. Also injury risk can impact market value too (eg, Stephen Curry)

[RunDogGun]

i'd say they're comparable but in the same sense that Disneyland is comparable to Universal Studios.

I mean, they are similar to each other and they probably cost similar amounts but one is worth more than the other and it's an easy choice for me.

I put up their stats, and if you didn't look at the name, there isn't much difference between the two. Now your opinion, because you know what one of the players can do on your team, might be bias, but it is more like Disneyland vs Disneyworld. I'll let you choose who is who.

If there is no difference between the stats you are looking at the wrong stats.

Got it, you don't want to read what I wrote, but instead assume what I was thinking when I wrote it. read what I wrote again, you even quoted me, so it shouldn't be too hard, there "isn't much" difference is not the same thing as there is "no" difference.

I posted the stats. But I do love how I can't even say that they are similar in stats, but you can say that they are not even comparable, and a chasm of difference between the two, yet I'm the one that is looking at the wrong stats?

[aIvin adams]

i would be curious if anyone outside of toronto would choose Lowry over Bledsoe at the same contract price.

if everyone would choose Bledsoe at the same price, then he's prolly worth more.

Lowry is good, but i think Bledsoe is better. I hope the Suns and Bledsoe can work something out.

[Jarlaxle0204]

Can someone create a GIF for us... with LeBron as a JackAssian Centaur, with all of his cleveland minions jumping into his asscheeks..(Bledsoe included as the last one struggling to get in) then have James, with a strained bowel passing expression, expel Chris Bosh and Pat Riley.

lol Quite an imagination you have there Frank.

[HurricaneKid]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lowryky01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ser01.html

There are their stats, and very comparable. Although Lowry had almost two more assists per game. Looking at their advance stats, I didn't think I would see them so close, the way you described them (Bledsoe 110/106, Lowry 118/106 for off/def).

It was a fair offer extended to Eric, considering it is unknown whether he can handle starter minutes for an entire season, without his knee blowing out.

DRTG is entirely worthless. Its just the points allowed/100 poss while you are on the floor.

If you look at the +/- and don't even do any adjusting, the Suns with Bledsoe on the floor are 5.5 points/100 poss better defensively when he is on the floor. For Lowry, its a -.6. When Bledsoe was out opponents eFG% went up 2.4%.

Again, the question is health. And if there was ever an organization who I would have complete faith in it would be the Suns training staff.

Got it, so drtg is useless, but saying an opponent's efg% is better? Wouldn't that depend on who is also on the floor? Does that stat also show that we had to start Green half the season, and that those stats might be altered by the quality of players from the other team.

Again, the stats are very very similar. No huge outlier sats that clearly sets them apart. Bledsoe's ability to stay healthy for an entire season playing starter minutes is what set his market value. Sure there might be a couple teams that would jump at the chance to pay him more, but more than likely, those teams don't care if they go over the cap, and have the ease to just say it, without having to actually do it. No team has made an offer to Eric, and no team is willing to give up much to get him.

Sure to some degree, and the adjusted numbers actually benefit Bledsoe more. But at least you are comparing when he is playing vs when he isn't. So if Suns McJumphigh plays for the 04 Pistons and when he is in the game the Pistons allow 106 points/100 possessions his DRTG is 106. Meanwhile, his brother Eric McJumphigh plays for the 14 Sixers. His DRTG is 106 as well. This does not mean they are the same defensively. If you apply what the defense does without him you are adding a constant. Maybe for the Pistons its 96 and for the Sixers its 116. So one guy is -10 points and the other guy is +10 and they are anything but equal defensively. Which in the case you brought up is exactly the case (6.1 points different/100 possessions between the two is > LeBron James last year).

[HurricaneKid]

Got it, you don't want to read what I wrote, but instead assume what I was thinking when I wrote it. read what I wrote again, you even quoted me, so it shouldn't be too hard, there "isn't much" difference is not the same thing as there is "no" difference.

I posted the stats. But I do love how I can't even say that they are similar in stats, but you can say that they are not even comparable, and a chasm of difference between the two, yet I'm the one that is looking at the wrong stats?

You linked their offensive contributions. Which don't show any meaningful difference either way (and I would actually grant that Lowry, for now anyways, is probably a little better offensively). Then I showed you that they are ~6 points/100 poss different defensively. That 6 points defensively was pretty close to the complete contribution of LeBron last year. THATS A CHASM.

You need to look at statistics differently.

[RunDogGun]

Got it, so drtg is useless, but saying an opponent's efg% is better? Wouldn't that depend on who is also on the floor? Does that stat also show that we had to start Green half the season, and that those stats might be altered by the quality of players from the other team.

Again, the stats are very very similar. No huge outlier sats that clearly sets them apart. Bledsoe's ability to stay healthy for an entire season playing starter minutes is what set his market value. Sure there might be a couple teams that would jump at the chance to pay him more, but more than likely, those teams don't care if they go over the cap, and have the ease to just say it, without having to actually do it. No team has made an offer to Eric, and no team is willing to give up much to get him.

Sure to some degree, and the adjusted numbers actually benefit Bledsoe more. But at least you are comparing when he is playing vs when he isn't. So if Suns McJumphigh plays for the 04 Pistons and when he is in the game the Pistons allow 106 points/100 possessions his DRTG is 106. Meanwhile, his brother Eric McJumphigh plays for the 14 Sixers. His DRTG is 106 as well. This does not mean they are the same defensively. If you apply what the defense does without him you are adding a constant. Maybe for the Pistons its 96 and for the Sixers its 116. So one guy is -10 points and the other guy is +10 and they are anything but equal defensively. Which in the case you brought up is exactly the case (6.1 points different/100 possessions between the two is > LeBron James last year).

I didn't use those stats in any way to make a point as who was better or worse. I simply said I was surprised some of the stats were so close, because you used the term "chasm", and said that the two weren't even comparable. Maybe it just comes down to you not understanding what that word means. And maybe you don't know how to compare two things.

Again, the stats are very similar. I'm not making a judgement of who is better, both have slight edges in different areas.

[Saberestar]

Cleveland Cavaliers big man Tristan Thompson is seeking upwards of $11 million per season on his next contract, according to the Akron Beacon Journal's Jason Lloyd. He's eligible for an extension before Oct. 31, and he'll be a restricted free agent next summer.

He will ask for the type of money previously given to Derrick Favors (four years, $49 million) and Larry Sanders (four years, $44 million). What will hurt Thompson's case, however, is the Greg Monroe saga. Monroe, by all accounts a better player than Thompson, was forced to sign a one-year qualifying offer with the Pistons after failing to reach agreement on a long-term contract with anyone this summer. He will now be an unrestricted free agent next summer.

Another Paul's client

[DBoys]

Cleveland Cavaliers big man Tristan Thompson is seeking upwards of $11 million per season on his next contract, according to the Akron Beacon Journal's Jason Lloyd. He's eligible for an extension before Oct. 31, and he'll be a restricted free agent next summer.

He will ask for the type of money previously given to Derrick Favors (four years, $49 million) and Larry Sanders (four years, $44 million). What will hurt Thompson's case, however, is the Greg Monroe saga. Monroe, by all accounts a better player than Thompson, was forced to sign a one-year qualifying offer with the Pistons after failing to reach agreement on a long-term contract with anyone this summer. He will now be an unrestricted free agent next summer.

Another Paul's client

Hey, don't be bagging on R Paul. He miraculously got that Lebron kid a max deal for a couple seasons, so he clearly has the art of agent-ing mastered. You just tell 'em what you want, and they'll give it to you.

[RunDogGun]

Got it, you don't want to read what I wrote, but instead assume what I was thinking when I wrote it. read what I wrote again, you even quoted me, so it shouldn't be too hard, there "isn't much" difference is not the same thing as there is "no" difference.

I posted the stats. But I do love how I can't even say that they are similar in stats, but you can say that they are not even comparable, and a chasm of difference between the two, yet I'm the one that is looking at the wrong stats?

You linked their offensive contributions. Which don't show any meaningful difference either way (and I would actually grant that Lowry, for now anyways, is probably a little better offensively). Then I showed you that they are ~6 points/100 poss different defensively. That 6 points defensively was pretty close to the complete contribution of LeBron last year. THATS A CHASM.

You need to look at statistics differently.

No I linked ALL of their stats, and commented on one of them. So again, your stat has absolutely nothing to do with the team, and solely to do with the player you are talking about? For example, whoever replaced Eric could be marginally worse on defense, and Lowry's could be better or no difference at all. And there is no chasm in this. You need to learn what that word means. If my team lost by six points, I would never say there was a "chasm" difference between the scores.

Dude, let it go, you now trying to compare them off one stat, yet earlier saying they weren't comparable, seems like a joke to me.

I got it, you think Eric deserves so much more than Lowry, and I think the offer of 4/$48 is a fair deal considering it is still unknown if a Eric can get through a full season playing starter minutes. We dodged a bullet two seasons ago with Eric Gordon. Moreover, our team has been open to negotiations, and Bledsoe's camp hasn't even shown any desire to come to the table. Our team has gone through this quite professionally, and I think Rich Paul has done the opposite.

[Saberestar]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/AlexKennedyNBA/status/514488259695489025[/tweet]

[Zelaznyrules]

Got it, you don't want to read what I wrote, but instead assume what I was thinking when I wrote it. read what I wrote again, you even quoted me, so it shouldn't be too hard, there "isn't much" difference is not the same thing as there is "no" difference.

I posted the stats. But I do love how I can't even say that they are similar in stats, but you can say that they are not even comparable, and a chasm of difference between the two, yet I'm the one that is looking at the wrong stats?

You linked their offensive contributions. Which don't show any meaningful difference either way (and I would actually grant that Lowry, for now anyways, is probably a little better offensively). Then I showed you that they are ~6 points/100 poss different defensively. That 6 points defensively was pretty close to the complete contribution of LeBron last year. THATS A CHASM.

You need to look at statistics differently.

No I linked ALL of their stats, and commented on one of them. So again, your stat has absolutely nothing to do with the team, and solely to do with the player you are talking about? For example, whoever replaced Eric could be marginally worse on defense, and Lowry's could be better or no difference at all. And there is no chasm in this. You need to learn what that word means. If my team lost by six points, I would never say there was a "chasm" difference between the scores.

Dude, let it go, you now trying to compare them off one stat, yet earlier saying they weren't comparable, seems like a joke to me.

I got it, you think Eric deserves so much more than Lowry, and I think the offer of 4/$48 is a fair deal considering it is still unknown if a Eric can get through a full season playing starter minutes. We dodged a bullet two seasons ago with Eric Gordon. Moreover, our team has been open to negotiations, and Bledsoe's camp hasn't even shown any desire to come to the table. Our team has gone through this quite professionally, and I think Rich Paul has done the opposite.

I don't think it's a fair deal. IMO, healthy, he is right there just below the very best in the game and they get paid more than 12 per and that's without considering the upcoming cap hike. But I do think the 4/48 we offered was a fair starting point. The problem is, the agent didn't take the next step (from what he've heard). We wanted to keep him and we were willing to pay market value. Paul needed to do the work to establish his market value, all the while working with us. He didn't do his job and now it's likely we're screwed. We're going to wave goodbye to a very good player that may yet become a great player, barring injury of course.

[King4Day]

Thanks guys.

I think Curry got the amount he did thanks to his injuries. He was hurt every year so to see an offer that high, you have to take it.

I believe we would have already paid Bledsoe had he not had these injuries.

When he returned last season through the end of the year, he just never looked the same and certainly didn't look like a max player. If this was a one dimensional player, I wouldn't really care. But the guy plays D on a team with not too many great defenders.

Losing him does scare me a bit as we'd then have to rely on the development of our youth.

[RunDogGun]

I don't think it's a fair deal. IMO, healthy, he is right there just below the very best in the game and they get paid more than 12 per and that's without considering the upcoming cap hike. But I do think the 4/48 we offered was a fair starting point. The problem is, the agent didn't take the next step (from what he've heard). We wanted to keep him and we were willing to pay market value. Paul needed to do the work to establish his market value, all the while working with us. He didn't do his job and now it's likely we're screwed. We're going to wave goodbye to a very good player that may yet become a great player, barring injury of course.

But that is the hitch, the health part. He has been in the league for four years and in two of those years he wasn't able to play more than 42 games. And it isn't like he fully repaired the knee that has kept him out.

I'm going to go with the judgement of our FO, and possibly the med staff. I still think it's a fair offer, for he has not shown he is able to finish an entire season with starter minutes, and it is still unknown whether his knee will need further surgeries.

Our team has said they are willing to negotiate, so I don't see the hangup on Bledsoe's side. If you don't like the 4/$48, come to the table and talk, or take the QO. Neither has been done by Bledsoe's side.

[RunDogGun]

Thanks guys.

I think Curry got the amount he did thanks to his injuries. He was hurt every year so to see an offer that high, you have to take it.

I believe we would have already paid Bledsoe had he not had these injuries.

When he returned last season through the end of the year, he just never looked the same and certainly didn't look like a max player. If this was a one dimensional player, I wouldn't really care. But the guy plays D on a team with not too many great defenders.

Losing him does scare me a bit as we'd then have to rely on the development of our youth.

I don't want to lose him either, but we are beyond that point now, and I would rather focus on the guys we have.

Alright, way too much dedicated to Bledsoe. Any news on our guys reporting for voluntary workouts?

[RunDogGun]

PG 72 54 34.7 6.9 15.2 .453 1.8 5.1 .349 5.1 10.2 .504 4.8 5.7 .850 0.7 2.3 2.9 6.3 1.3 0.1 3.0 2.6 20.3

Do stats like that deserve a max deal? This guy can score(20.3), does an alright job assisting(6.3), not too bad on steals (1.3), and is clutch from the free throw line 85%.


Oh and when he started, he averaged 21.3/3.1/6.8 (pts, rbds, ast)

[Christine-In-AZ]

Wish he'd take a page out of Goran Dragic's playbook. Guy got traded, comes back for less money because he loves it here and he recognizes what Phoenix means to him in his life, and then goes out there and dominates, and then says he'll opt out and quickly resign.

THAT'S the type of dedication and love I want from players playing in Phoenix. I don't want that mercenary, soulless, boring, predictable, manufactured, inmates-run-the-asylum garbage with cancerous, primadonna bull I see with teams and players all around the league. Sorry if that doesn't fit your vision.

I wonder how your example of Goran Dragic strategy looks to a Rocket fan?

When this Bledsoe FA began he had been a member of the Phoenix Suns less than a year, far less time than Goran was a Rocket. Why can't you at least accept the possibility that Eric might want to go where he feels the strongest desire to play, ala Goran Dragic in July '12? That Eric isn't trying to "run from", that he might be trying to "run to" ?

Something tells me had the Rockets thrown big dollars at Goran...promised him a starting role, Goran Dragic would be a Rocket right now and his love to play in Phoenix would have to wait.

Gogi didn't have to face the Rockets using the RFA rules against him, but probably just as Bledsoe stated calmly, Dragic would probably have echoed- "The Rockets are using the restricted free agency rules against me, but I understand that"

Look. I am not the biggest Bledsoe fan. There are red flags with his obvious knee issues and even moreso in the way he plays...dangerous. I don't think he deserves anything close to what his agent isn't asking for. I'm pretty much in the "4/48 or die" club, though I'd budge to a small bump and or a shorter slightly sweeter deal. If he chooses to take the QO, it won't make me happy, but I also don't think it's nearly as "nuclear" as so many are feeling. Bledsoe in effect did it (rolled the dice) last year when he didn't sign an extension with the Suns. It could have...and nearly did blow up in his face (see:knee). What bugs me is all this assumption or out n' out fabrication about Bledsoe's mind set. I guess if you are one of those that accepts word from one of our "insiders" that Bledsoe is "butthurt"..."butthurt"...and did I say "butthurt"? (really need to find a new word) then I guess? You have some proof that Bledsoe is pissed. I'm not accepting that, especially since the insider is only getting info from one or two press connections, not the FO itself. Follow his tracks from the beginning in '09. Maybe something changed when the Lebron stuff started flying in early July, but the 3 year sudden return of inside info after a total hiatus as insider, didn't come with a status update. Many and large are my "grains of salt".

Yes! Of course speculation is part of a vibrant forum such as this...and certainly some counter-speculation or strong push back. And I will admit I do gravitate to the role as contrarian more often than not...a want to play devil's advocate.

I'm ready to get blasted once again by one of the best. I mean that with respect BH. Your Suns passion is unmatched.

[Damkac]

If Bledsoe is worth more than 4/48 then why nobody besides the Suns offer him anything?

[RunDogGun]

We didn't use anything against Eric. He is a RFA, and those rules apply to any player in that position. It's not our fault his agent is late to the party, and refuses to come to the table.

Goran got a call from Sarver, and he signed right after that. Saver seems open to negotiate with Bledsoe, but Eric has decided to let his agent handle this, and has yet to talk to the Suns.

Big differences there.

If Eric wants out, and that is what he has wanted all along, cool, sign the QO, and get his arse to AZ, and move on from there. But this victim crap is ridiculous.