The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason

[letsgosuns]

On December 17, 2004, the Raptors traded a 28 year old Vince Carter to the Nets for the 16th pick of the 2005 draft, the 20th pick of the 2006 draft, Aaron Williams, Eric Williams, and a 34 year old Alonzo Mourning who never reported to the Raptors and was bought out of his contract. Carter was a five time all-star, former rookie of the year, former slam dunk champion, an Olympic gold medalist, and a two time all-NBA player at the time of the trade. He had some problems with management and wanted off the team and got his wish.

On February 18, 2016, the Suns traded a 26 year old Markieff Morris to the Wizards for their 2016 first round pick, top-9 protected, DeJuan Blair, and Kris Humphries. Blair was waived and Humphries was eventually waived as well. Markieff Morris had publicly demanded a trade during the Summer, insulted the fan base, tanked games, threw a towel at the coach, choked a teammate during a game, was/is awaiting possible trial on a felony assault case, and his one career accolade was winning player of the week one time.

One can argue that not only did the Suns get virtually the equivalent value for Markieff that the Raptors got for Carter, but the Suns actually got better value because they are slated to receive a lottery pick.

[saintEscaton]

I think the issue isn't so much "____ is what it takes to get a star" so much as the fact that Boston(with Ainge) can beat any offer we put together. IT has a lot more trade value than Knight. They have Brooklyn's pick this year, and another one coming up(with some pick swaps too). They have Crowder signed to a wonderful deal. They have Father Kelly and Smart.

The Kings, Clippers and Bulls will all call Ainge first if they choose to move their stars.

He can beat it, but WILL he beat it? Who would be willing to over pay more.

Ainge is smart enough to not big against himself, other teams can only drive up the asking price and play spoiler sport

[Damkac]

On December 17, 2004, the Raptors traded a 28 year old Vince Carter to the Nets for the 16th pick of the 2005 draft, the 20th pick of the 2006 draft, Aaron Williams, Eric Williams, and a 34 year old Alonzo Mourning who never reported to the Raptors and was bought out of his contract. Carter was a five time all-star, former rookie of the year, former slam dunk champion, an Olympic gold medalist, and a two time all-NBA player at the time of the trade. He had some problems with management and wanted off the team and got his wish.

On February 18, 2016, the Suns traded a 26 year old Markieff Morris to the Wizards for their 2016 first round pick, top-9 protected, DeJuan Blair, and Kris Humphries. Blair was waived and Humphries was eventually waived as well. Markieff Morris had publicly demanded a trade during the Summer, insulted the fan base, tanked games, threw a towel at the coach, choked a teammate during a game, was/is awaiting possible trial on a felony assault case, and his one career accolade was winning player of the week one time.

One can argue that not only did the Suns get virtually the equivalent value for Markieff that the Raptors got for Carter, but the Suns actually got better value because they are slated to receive a lottery pick.

Suns are a joke. Worst run team in the league, alongside Nets and maybe Kings. They fired great coach in Hornacek when it's their idiot gm who should be fired.
Random poster on General Board

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

Before I respond to the substance of your reply, I am going to say something. I do not need you to challenge me asking me if I have the balls to take my offer to the trade forum. That is insulting and actually offensive. I have never once even clicked on that forum or any other forums on this website besides team forums. I choose not to go there because I am not interested in partaking in generalized conversations about random trade proposals unless it on the Suns forum or a specific team forum. So for you to personally insult me like that is uncalled for and rude. I have taken a lot of flak on this website from many posters who have gone after me personally, yet I have never once insulted anyone personally or called anyone out or disregarded or looked down on their opinion. And I certainly do not need you or anyone else questioning whether I have the balls to talk about trade proposal on a basketball message board.

That being said, you did not disprove anything I said about Carter, Marbury, or Hardaway. You did not even mention the Vince Carter trade. Go back and look at what it involved. The Raptors traded him for practically nothing. He was a superstar in his prime at age 28. For Marbury, age 26 at the time of the trade, the Suns got just a couple of decent picks (one which they traded later on) and random players. So what if they did it for the cap space. It still represents an all-star in the prime of his career getting traded for very little. And the Magic traded Hardaway right after they finished the lockout shortened season tied for best record in the Eastern Conference at 33-17. Plus Idk why you think Hardaway was on the downside of his career. He was still the best player on the team that finished with the best record in the East. He was only 28 and still a great player when the Suns traded for him. He was awesome in the 2000 playoffs for the Suns. It was not until he hurt his knee that his career turned for the worse. And who is this Hill player you mentioned that looked done?

Here is another example. Ray Allen was traded when he was 31 for three mediocre players and a 2nd round pick. He was a top shooting guard in the league and had made the all-star team seven years straight at the time of the trade. He was still in his prime. Looking back on the trade, what did the Supersonics get for him? Almost nothing. When Allen Iverson was traded to the Nuggets in 2006 at age 31, still in his prime, the 76ers got two mediocre players and two late first round picks in 2007 for him. This was the city's beloved player and hall of famer and they got almost nothing in return for him. Get my point? When things are not working out and a team is not winning, owners/gms make changes to the roster. No one stays untouchable.

I know you don't want to put your idea out there on the trade forum to get unbiased ideas and believe you are 100% correct. As for insulting and offensive, I am not going after you or attacking you, but picking apart your opinions, just as you are picking apart mine.

Carter - After signing a $94 million contract, later in the 2001-02 season his team went 42-40, largely because he was out for the year, and then in the playoffs. Then, news came out that Carter had developed Sinding-Larsen-Johansson disease also known as "jumper's knee," which drew criticism and questions from local media outlets and fans about Carter's long term durability as a NBA scorer. In 2003-04 he was injured again and the team went 25-25 and was out of the playoffs.

Then, that summer, the GM and coaching staff were fired, frustrating Carter who then became upset with upper management. Rumors came out that he wanted to be traded and felt that the team would never make the playoffs with upper management.

He was then later traded for three players (one being Alonzo Mourning) and two draft picks. Because he had expressed his desire to get out, and his disgust with upper management, he was largely booed by fans when he returned for games.

Bill Simmons, who I imagine you haven't heard of, but he's a writer with a big following, often wrote about how Carter was a traitor to the Raptors.

So that situation is unique. Maybe Butler's is a fraction of what that was like, but my belief is that if they trade Butler they will definitely probably want a good young SG to replace him as well as a PG and Center in the deal, or a pick to be one of those. I doubt they would want Knight or Bledsoe and their contracts, and they already have a SF they recently drafted in McDermott. So I think it takes a pick where they can get a good PG or SG, or that player (our first pick or Booker) + Len. But I wouldn't want to make that trade anyway, because that would leave us with nothing but Chandler at center, and just either replace our SG or lose our pick.

Interesting that in your link to suggested trades that Bulls fans mentioned, the Suns were not listed.

Marbury - I wouldn't call him a superstar. He was an empty stats guy that never took the Nets team to the playoffs. This is a Nets team that with Kidd went to the finals. They had good players around him. Then he did take the Suns to the 8th seed I believe one year, but then a couple years later, Nash takes this same team to the WCF and has the 1 seed. D'Antoni couldn't stand him as a player, nor could Larry Brown. I honestly can't believe a Suns fan is calling Marbury a superstar.

Hardaway - After already losing Grant Hill for several years due to terrible injuries, in 97-98, Penny had a devastating left knee injury that forced him to miss much of the season. He ended up having 4 more injuries on that same left knee. He did well in the following strike shortened season, but that risk injury loomed

After having lost Hill and facing having another injury prone high priced player as a big risk, they cashed in to rebuild in 99 and acquired two first rounders.

They were later proven right in dealing him, because after one season with Phx (99-00), in which he played well but still missed 24 games, in the 2000-01 season he had two surgeries on his left knee and missed all but four games.

When he returned Hardaway entered the 2001-02 NBA season healthy and managed to play in 80 regular-season games. Kidd had been dealt to the New Jersey Nets for new point guard Stephon Marbury. Kidd's pass-first style was switched with Marbury's shoot-first style which led to Hardaway and Marbury butting heads. Hardaway managed to average 19.9 points, 5.4 rebounds, 4.6 assists, and 1.7 steals during the month of November. The team traded for guard Joe Johnson during the season which relegated Hardaway to the bench for the first time in his career. Despite this he averaged 12 points, 4.4 rebounds, 4.1 assists, and 1.5 steals during the regular season.

After that season he rarely played and never even averaged 10 points a game.

The point is, all of these guys were traded under circumstances that we don't see today. Carter wanted out and had an injury people were concerned about. Marbury was never a team player that capitalized on the talents of the rest of the team. He may have had assists, but for whatever reason, they rarely translated to wins, and he butted heads with players and coaches along the way.

And Hardaway had huge injury red flags, and the Magic proved right in trading them when he did.

Ray Allen was a unique situation because they had a chance to do a quick rebuild and had a new owner...the Sonics had peaked, he was on downside of the career, and they were going to go young under this new ownership and thought they'd add another young piece to Durant, that player being Jeff Green.

I've addressed the Butler and Griffin situations multiple times. The others I can't see traded.

"Bill Simmons, who I imagine you haven't heard of, but he's a writer with a big following, often wrote about how Carter was a traitor to the Raptors."

What is this a joke? You imagine I have not heard of him? Uhh that guy is a pretty famous and well known sports writer. And questioning whether I have balls or not to do something is attacking me. You can spin it all you want. Saying something like that has nothing to do with picking apart my opinion.

Anyway, you can justify reasons about why the players I mentioned were traded but the point is that it happened. Each situation was unique? Well each situation is always unique. That is what happens when all-stars get traded. There is always some underlying motivation when a player like that gets traded. Harden was traded to the Rockets the year before he was a free agent and the Thunder were coming off a finals appearance and Harden had won sixth man of the year. He was only 22 at the time. I thought he was going to be a superstar. I remember Gambo and his partner talking on the radio after Harden destroyed the Suns one game in Phoenix and both said can you imagine Harden in a Suns uniform. The Suns should go after him when he is a free agent. They were salivating over the thought of him playing for the Suns. So regardless of the circumstances, he was still a rising superstar getting traded at age 22.

You say Marbury never led the Nets to the playoffs but he did eventually lead the Suns to the playoffs. I was at game 4 of the series against the Spurs in 2003 when he got the stinger in his arm that changed the series. The Suns still won that game on Jake Voskuhl's shot at the end. He played like a true star in that series. However, you say he put up empty stats? Okay. I agree with that. But then what about DeMarcus Cousins. He must be the king of that. Because he puts up these amazing stats every year and the Kings are horrible. And I did not call Marbury a superstar. I specifically said he was an all-star, not a superstar. Re-read the part about Marbury.

I still do not know why you are bringing up Grant Hill. He did not join the Magic until August 2000 when Hardaway was already on the Suns. What are you bringing him up for?

At this point, Blake Griffin has multiple red flags. Paul George has a major red flag. Did George redeem himself this year? Probably. But so did Amare the year after his surgery. Nobody knows what will happen later on in people's careers. George might play the rest of his career injury free hopefully. Every player is a major risk. Chris Paul sadly is injury prone. He is a red flag. Would it still require a hefty package to trade for him? Most likely.

In addition, why is it interesting that the link I gave about Butler trade packages did not mention the Suns? I did not write the article. I was just showing that an article written by a Bulls fan site gave hypothetical trades that were far less than what some fans on here are saying it would take. Some fans on here said it would take nearly every young player the Suns have and every single draft pick the Suns own while Bulls fans themselves are saying it would not be anything close to that. I was just showing a viewpoint from the Bulls fans. That is all I was doing.

Like I said, stars get traded when they have a year (maybe a little more or less) on their contract (Harden), and we all know it was for cap reasons. With the cap now, something like that doesn't happen.

I think Cousins is better than Marbury, but we can just disagree with that. But I don't think Cousins is getting traded.

Oh yeah, my bad on Grant Hill.

There you go with Griffin again who I have addressed multiple times. But since you forgot I do think he might be traded, but if so for players to help them compete with Paul while his window is still open, not picks. And, once again, also because he has one year left on his contract and could leave, and he is probably not worth going after anyway since he likely wouldn't hang around in Phoenix. You say people say they may reset totally, but not unless Doc goes...he showed in Boston when he went to the Clips he didn't want to go through a rebuild....so that would have to come from the top, and Doc would likely be gone too, but the owner probably doesn't want to get rid of stars if he can help it.

About Butler, all we've said is Booker OR our pick plus a late lotto pick and Len. I didn't look at all of them, but WCS and #8 is not much off from Booker and # 5, but we were only saying one of those things, not both...that Sac trade is saying both. That's their prized rookie and top 8 pick...that's quite a bit. But some of your proposals load them up at positions they don't need and don't address they positions they do.

Paul George had a bone break. Is it still a red flag? Not that I can tell. Not like the knee problems that happened with Amare and Carter. It was a horrific bone break but he pretty much got back to form...it's not like his knee cartilage is damaged like Amare's was or the issue Carter had....or even what Hardaway had. Those were the types of injuries that limit your ability to jump and usually require subsequent surgeries, unlike bone breaks.

Don't see any reason George, Wall and Harden go anywhere...those are the players teams wait, sometimes for years to get on their teams, and once they have them they try to build around them, not start over.

[Frank Lee]

Chicago is at a crossroad, faced with losing both Noah and gasol... And the perpetually hobbled rose.

I'd think they'd listen on a booker/Len/ top pick for Butler. They could draft Dunn and have a nice little core themselves with Portis too.

I'm not sold on this core of Warren, Book , and Len being set in stone nor that effective.

I guess the question is really how good Butler is.....


A backcourt of Bled and Butler would be a tough match on both ends... And more appealing for other possible FAs. Heck.... Even go as far as signing Noah to make up for Len leaving.

Remember, it's Sarver's window we have to look through and there's not a goddam thing wrong with an eight seed

[bwgood77]

Booker is a better player. He's probably a top 30 player next season. There I said it.

Are you kidding me? This board is beyond delusional. It pains me to say it but lets be real, a sophomore Book is still a slight downgrade from Knight as a starter

Funny. It seems I disagree with you most of the time. However, on this one I totally agree. Board hype seems to be exaggerated in both directions. The players we love are not as good as we would like to think. And the players we love to hate are not nearly as bad as we would make it appear.

I am not sure Knight has a chance at all to get back into the good graces of Suns fans--no matter how much he improves. I am fine with trading him, just because of the logjam at the guard position, but I don't think he is the detriment that others do.

Knight has a chance with me. Lets see if he can embrace the way Watson wants him to play with more free flowing ball movement. If he can, he can become a valuable player. Not sure I can say I expect it though.

[bwgood77]

On December 17, 2004, the Raptors traded a 28 year old Vince Carter to the Nets for the 16th pick of the 2005 draft, the 20th pick of the 2006 draft, Aaron Williams, Eric Williams, and a 34 year old Alonzo Mourning who never reported to the Raptors and was bought out of his contract. Carter was a five time all-star, former rookie of the year, former slam dunk champion, an Olympic gold medalist, and a two time all-NBA player at the time of the trade. He had some problems with management and wanted off the team and got his wish.

On February 18, 2016, the Suns traded a 26 year old Markieff Morris to the Wizards for their 2016 first round pick, top-9 protected, DeJuan Blair, and Kris Humphries. Blair was waived and Humphries was eventually waived as well. Markieff Morris had publicly demanded a trade during the Summer, insulted the fan base, tanked games, threw a towel at the coach, choked a teammate during a game, was/is awaiting possible trial on a felony assault case, and his one career accolade was winning player of the week one time.

One can argue that not only did the Suns get virtually the equivalent value for Markieff that the Raptors got for Carter, but the Suns actually got better value because they are slated to receive a lottery pick.

I guess you missed what I said about Vince Carter, but not only his injuries, but his total mistrust with management, saying they would never win with that management and wanting out. It was like the combination of Dragic's demand to get out (and to a much great extent), Amare's knee injuries, and Markieff being a complete ass (though Markieff only made $8 million a year NOW) compared to Carter's $94 million contract 12 years ago.

About Markieff though....I've been meaning to mention him when you bring up Wall. So the team that trades a draft pick (likely a lotto that turned into a lotto pick), for Markieff, to add a vet to their core and help Wall more, being that they already have two young guys in Porter and Oubre (and some bad luck in previous drafts), but now you think they want to turn around and trade their 25 year old centerpiece they are building around for picks? Mmmmkay

[thamadkant]

Suns should only trade their stable of youth IF they are going for 2 all stars in return... As in trade for one and signing the other...

If suns trade their youth just for a single star.... Their wont be any much changes... Except suns get older and commit more salary with lower ceiling due to age and cap space.

[bwgood77]

Chicago is at a crossroad, faced with losing both Noah and gasol... And the perpetually hobbled rose.

I'd think they'd listen on a booker/Len/ top pick for Butler. They could draft Dunn and have a nice little core themselves with Portis too.

Yes, I definitely think they'd listen with that offer. That's the perfect offer for them. I'd pass though.

[letsgosuns]

Bwgood77,

"WCS and #8 is not much off from Booker and # 5." You do not seriously believe that do you? C'mon. Do a side by side comparison between Booker and Stein's rookie seasons. I find it shocking you would make a statement like that. Plus there is a massive difference between pick 5 and pick 8. Each slot the pick drops takes away value.

And after Carter was traded to the Nets, what did he do? He played four and a half seasons for them. When you combine the first part of 2004 with the Raptors with the subsequent years with the Nets, he averaged 23 ppg, 6 rbs, and 5 ast between 2004-09. He missed only 16 games over that five year period. Never missed more than six games in any of those seasons. He also made three all-star teams with the Nets. The Nets made the playoffs three times with him and his playoff averages were 26 ppg, 7 rbs, and 5 ast. The 2005-06 Nets team finished the season 49-33. The same record as the 2002-03 Nets team that made the finals.

Fast forward from 2004 to 2016 and Vince Carter is still playing today. He is still a contributor on teams making the playoffs. See how you can never tell what will happen to a player and why every player no matter who they are is a risk. Wasn't Steve Nash an enormous red flag in 2004 when the Suns signed him? Cuban said so himself multiple times that his team's doctors said do not sign him because his back will not hold up. Look how that worked out for the Suns. Jason Kidd had microfracture knee surgery in 2004. He played another ten years. Amare had it in 2005. Still playing today. Webber and Hardaway had it and it ruined their careers. Kobe was still an MVP caliber player in 2013 when an achilles injury destroyed his career. You never know with these things.

[letsgosuns]

On December 17, 2004, the Raptors traded a 28 year old Vince Carter to the Nets for the 16th pick of the 2005 draft, the 20th pick of the 2006 draft, Aaron Williams, Eric Williams, and a 34 year old Alonzo Mourning who never reported to the Raptors and was bought out of his contract. Carter was a five time all-star, former rookie of the year, former slam dunk champion, an Olympic gold medalist, and a two time all-NBA player at the time of the trade. He had some problems with management and wanted off the team and got his wish.

On February 18, 2016, the Suns traded a 26 year old Markieff Morris to the Wizards for their 2016 first round pick, top-9 protected, DeJuan Blair, and Kris Humphries. Blair was waived and Humphries was eventually waived as well. Markieff Morris had publicly demanded a trade during the Summer, insulted the fan base, tanked games, threw a towel at the coach, choked a teammate during a game, was/is awaiting possible trial on a felony assault case, and his one career accolade was winning player of the week one time.

One can argue that not only did the Suns get virtually the equivalent value for Markieff that the Raptors got for Carter, but the Suns actually got better value because they are slated to receive a lottery pick.

I guess you missed what I said about Vince Carter, but not only his injuries, but his total mistrust with management, saying they would never win with that management and wanting out. It was like the combination of Dragic's demand to get out (and to a much great extent), Amare's knee injuries, and Markieff being a complete ass (though Markieff only made $8 million a year NOW) compared to Carter's $94 million contract 12 years ago.

About Markieff though....I've been meaning to mention him when you bring up Wall. So the team that trades a draft pick (likely a lotto that turned into a lotto pick), for Markieff, to add a vet to their core and help Wall more, being that they already have two young guys in Porter and Oubre (and some bad luck in previous drafts), but now you think they want to turn around and trade their 25 year old centerpiece they are building around for picks? Mmmmkay

Markieff did the same type of stuff as Carter. And I do not remember Carter being accused of felony aggravated assault. And read what I just wrote about Carter and injuries in the league.

Also, I am going to say this for the 100th time. I never once said Wall, Harden, Griffin, George, or anyone else is actually available. These are just hypothetical situations. I have prefaced my ideas many times with something like these players might ask for a trade or management may decide to move in a different direction. When did I ever say they were actually available. I never did.

[bwgood77]

Bwgood77,

"WCS and #8 is not much off from Booker and # 5." You do not seriously believe that do you? C'mon. Do a side by side comparison between Booker and Stein's rookie seasons. I find it shocking you would make a statement like that. Plus there is a massive difference between pick 5 and pick 8. Each slot the pick drops takes away value.

And after Carter was traded to the Nets, what did he do? He played four and a half seasons for them. When you combine the first part of 2004 with the Raptors with the subsequent years with the Nets, he averaged 23 ppg, 6 rbs, and 5 ast between 2004-09. He missed only 16 games over that five year period. Never missed more than six games in any of those seasons. He also made three all-star teams with the Nets. The Nets made the playoffs three times with him and his playoff averages were 26 ppg, 7 rbs, and 5 ast. The 2005-06 Nets team finished the season 49-33. The same record as the 2002-03 Nets team that made the finals.

Fast forward from 2004 to 2016 and Vince Carter is still playing today. He is still a contributor on teams making the playoffs. See how you can never tell what will happen to a player and why every player no matter who they are is a risk. Wasn't Steve Nash an enormous red flag in 2004 when the Suns signed him? Cuban said so himself multiple times that his team's doctors said do not sign him because his back will not hold up. Look how that worked out for the Suns. Jason Kidd had microfracture knee surgery in 2004. He played another ten years. Amare had it in 2005. Still playing today. Webber and Hardaway had it and it ruined their careers. Kobe was still an MVP caliber player in 2013 when an achilles injury destroyed his career. You never know with these things.

I'd much rather have Booker than WCS. But Sacramento wanted that defensive presence next to Cousins, and a guy who could guard anyone. They serve a different purpose. Booker is the better player imo, but Sacramento drafted what they needed, so to them, WCS likely holds close to the value to them that Booker does to us.

But the point is, they are trading away their first round pick from a year ago, a guy taken 5 picks higher than our pick, and a pick likely 3 picks lower than us this year. And I said "not far off" mostly because I don't think the 5th pick this year is much better than the 8th. For sure I'd rather have Booker than WCS though.

But regardless of that, I never said I'd we'd have to trade Booker AND our first.....I said either/or....and Chicago is asking for both of them with Sacramento in that hypothetical. Personally I don't like WCS, but that doesn't mean a lot of others don't, particularly the management that drafted him and the fans that have watched him and pull for them.

Vince is still playing and playing pretty well. He is a guy that adapted fairly well to his limitations and although he has questionable effort sometimes, he has had a nice career. But he still had huge problems with management like Markieff and Dragic did, and asked to be traded like they did, and also made a boatload more money than they did.

So with him there were four things going on. Blaming management, asking for a trade, making a ton of money when there was a limited cap and they would soon have to pay TMAC, and injury concerns.

[letsgosuns]

Bwgood77,

"WCS and #8 is not much off from Booker and # 5." You do not seriously believe that do you? C'mon. Do a side by side comparison between Booker and Stein's rookie seasons. I find it shocking you would make a statement like that. Plus there is a massive difference between pick 5 and pick 8. Each slot the pick drops takes away value.

And after Carter was traded to the Nets, what did he do? He played four and a half seasons for them. When you combine the first part of 2004 with the Raptors with the subsequent years with the Nets, he averaged 23 ppg, 6 rbs, and 5 ast between 2004-09. He missed only 16 games over that five year period. Never missed more than six games in any of those seasons. He also made three all-star teams with the Nets. The Nets made the playoffs three times with him and his playoff averages were 26 ppg, 7 rbs, and 5 ast. The 2005-06 Nets team finished the season 49-33. The same record as the 2002-03 Nets team that made the finals.

Fast forward from 2004 to 2016 and Vince Carter is still playing today. He is still a contributor on teams making the playoffs. See how you can never tell what will happen to a player and why every player no matter who they are is a risk. Wasn't Steve Nash an enormous red flag in 2004 when the Suns signed him? Cuban said so himself multiple times that his team's doctors said do not sign him because his back will not hold up. Look how that worked out for the Suns. Jason Kidd had microfracture knee surgery in 2004. He played another ten years. Amare had it in 2005. Still playing today. Webber and Hardaway had it and it ruined their careers. Kobe was still an MVP caliber player in 2013 when an achilles injury destroyed his career. You never know with these things.

I'd much rather have Booker than WCS. But Sacramento wanted that defensive presence next to Cousins, and a guy who could guard anyone. They serve a different purpose. Booker is the better player imo, but Sacramento drafted what they needed, so to them, WCS likely holds close to the value to them that Booker does to us.

But the point is, they are trading away their first round pick from a year ago, a guy taken 5 picks higher than our pick, and a pick likely 3 picks lower than us this year. And I said "not far off" mostly because I don't think the 5th pick this year is much better than the 8th. For sure I'd rather have Booker than WCS though.

But regardless of that, I never said I'd we'd have to trade Booker AND our first.....I said either/or....and Chicago is asking for both of them with Sacramento in that hypothetical. Personally I don't like WCS, but that doesn't mean a lot of others don't, particularly the management that drafted him and the fans that have watched him and pull for them.

Vince is still playing and playing pretty well. He is a guy that adapted fairly well to his limitations and although he has questionable effort sometimes, he has had a nice career. But he still had huge problems with management like Markieff and Dragic did, and asked to be traded like they did, and also made a boatload more money than they did.

So with him there were four things going on. Blaming management, asking for a trade, making a ton of money when there was a limited cap and they would soon have to pay TMAC, and injury concerns.

Yes Carter had many issues going on between him and the organization. He also had some injury concerns. But ultimately he was still a superstar in his prime that got traded for virtually nothing compared to what he was worth. Markieff also had serious issues between himself and the organization. The difference between them is caliber of player. Carter was an all-NBA all-star and one of the most popular basketball players in the world while Markieff is a role playing, sixth man style player. They are not comparable. Yet the net result of what the Raptors and Suns got in return for them is basically the same.

Here is another trade where a superstar was traded still in the prime of his career for a package nowhere near what he was worth. Shaq was traded in 2004 (after a finals appearance) for Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Brian Grant, the 26th pick of 2006 draft, and the 50th pick of the 2007 draft. Lamar Odom was a good, young player but Butler and Grant never did anything for the Lakers. It took a few years after that trade for the Lakers to become great again and that is because they lucked out and got Pau Gasol. Meanwhile, the Heat won a championship with Shaq so obviously the traded worked out as well as possible for them.

[thamadkant]

I think the following FA activities will transpire.
- Conley to Spurs or Knicks
- P.Gasol to Spurs or Knicks depending on who lands Conley

- Durant stays at Thunder

- Thunder goes for a veteran SG like Courtney Lee and a veteran SF defender.

- Barnes stay at Warriors for near max.

- Celtics gets Cousins or Love or Horford

- Howard leaves Rockets and joins Mavericks or Hawks

[Krush32]

What I would like to see next season is a group of young, talented, hungry players that no one gives a chance of competing. I want to see them play with a chip on their shoulders that binds them together as a unit and I want to see them frustrate other teams.

It'll take humility. I think one of the biggest problems is that two guards have another kind of chip on their shoulder - they want to show that they, personally, are elite players in this league. TJ Warren, in my opinion, is the roster's most talented scorer. But passing him the ball or letting the offense flow won't necessarily help their Eric's and Brandon's personal ascension. And fighting on defense isn't a role I think Knight, especially, envisions for himself. I worry, in other words, that ego will get in the way of this squad coming together. If Bled were a truly selfless point guard, a lot of these issues would go away. For that reason, maybe Ulis or Valentine are guys we could look at in the draft.

I'm also hopeful that Watson can put an offense in place that is significantly better than the atrocious system Jeff trotted out this season. We need more player and ball movement. We have the depth to do it, but do we have the right attitudes and the right talent? Let's hope Earl can make these pieces fit together.

Agree with a few points here.

*TJ Warren is our most talented scorer and in my opinion can be a better player than Booker.
*Jeffs offense was horrible. We need motion with TJ and Booker coming off screens.
*Id like to see Valentine here to help be a glue guy and help with ball movement.

Earl was taking about being able to put players in the position to succeed so hopefully he will come up with a way to make it work. I dont like Knights game but maybe he can be sort of a CJ mccollum with Bled as our Lillard. Major key is letting TJ loose. I didnt like that TJ got benched for not diving on the floor in one of our games. That probably hurt his confidence for such a young player.

[thamadkant]

I think Suns need to field a starting 5 that are balanced players... Offensively and Defensively.... warriors and spurs style.


Booker looks like he will be a tremendous offensive player. But can he be that player that also negates his man defensively? Or will he score 25 points and let his man score 20 plus also?
He can definitely work if Suns have 4 good defenders around him... So thats a consideration Suns need to check.



Tucker needs to go... His defense is above average but him trying to overplay his role is affecting chemistry in my opinion. Len would get under 10 rebounds when Tucker is there inside fighting him for it... Or when Tucker is holding on the ball too long trying to create assists.

On a good team he will focus on his job which is defense and the corner 3.... But on a terrible team like the suns i feel that he is trying too much which affects the development or roles of others.
He needs to be traded to a playoff team which can use him and reward his hard work.


Again.. Depending on what suns do... I still feel that even if Suns try to get stars... Tucker's spot is the one the Suns need to upgrade from.


Warren has shown he can learn fast... He has developed a 3pt shot.. Which surprised even me
I think he needs to become a decent defender though.
Goodwin.. Everyone knows how I feel.. With time I think he can replace Bledsoe. But SUNS simply may not have enough minutes to develop him some more.


Len being forced to shoot mid range is giving me head aches.. He shot beloe 40 percent in the last 15 or so games as Watson tried to turn him to Pau Gasol as a mid range big man.... Not good.

Len should be developed like prime Hibbert... When Hibbert was actually good... Inside presense and a shot blocker.


Knight... Needs to be traded for other assets. McD needs to bite the bullet and let his ego aside.
He is detrimental to Booker... Who is a better shooter and passer.

Dont sell too low though... I think his ability to shoot the 3pt and score is useful to many teams...

Bledsoe... All about his health. Paying a PG 15 million a year to play 40 games a year from here on out is not good. Goodwin has put up similar numbers as Bledsoe at 1 million a year and at 21 years old...
If Bledsoe can improve a lot from age of 24 to 25... Why cant Goodwin improve a lot too from age 21 to 25.... Just better ceiling IMO.


Bogdanovic.. My second favorite suns prospect... Well.. Absolutelt want him to play.. But where are the minutes????



Kawhi Leonard is my absolute favourite player at the moment..humble and a great team player.
Suns need players like him.... Great team offensive players with a nose for defense.


At this time... I only see Bledsoe, Goodwin, Tucker and Chandler as the players who actually make a difference defensively... And 2 of them I want traded.

[jcsunsfan]

I think Suns need to field a starting 5 that are balanced players... Offensively and Defensively.... warriors and spurs style.


Booker looks like he will be a tremendous offensive player. But can he be that player that also negates his man defensively? Or will he score 25 points and let his man score 20 plus also?
He can definitely work if Suns have 4 good defenders around him... So thats a consideration Suns need to check.



Tucker needs to go... His defense is above average but him trying to overplay his role is affecting chemistry in my opinion. Len would get under 10 rebounds when Tucker is there inside fighting him for it... Or when Tucker is holding on the ball too long trying to create assists.

On a good team he will focus on his job which is defense and the corner 3.... But on a terrible team like the suns i feel that he is trying too much which affects the development or roles of others.
He needs to be traded to a playoff team which can use him and reward his hard work.


Again.. Depending on what suns do... I still feel that even if Suns try to get stars... Tucker's spot is the one the Suns need to upgrade from.


Warren has shown he can learn fast... He has developed a 3pt shot.. Which surprised even me
I think he needs to become a decent defender though.
Goodwin.. Everyone knows how I feel.. With time I think he can replace Bledsoe. But SUNS simply may not have enough minutes to develop him some more.


Len being forced to shoot mid range is giving me head aches.. He shot beloe 40 percent in the last 15 or so games as Watson tried to turn him to Pau Gasol as a mid range big man.... Not good.

Len should be developed like prime Hibbert... When Hibbert was actually good... Inside presense and a shot blocker.


Knight... Needs to be traded for other assets. McD needs to bite the bullet and let his ego aside.
He is detrimental to Booker... Who is a better shooter and passer.

Dont sell too low though... I think his ability to shoot the 3pt and score is useful to many teams...

Bledsoe... All about his health. Paying a PG 15 million a year to play 40 games a year from here on out is not good. Goodwin has put up similar numbers as Bledsoe at 1 million a year and at 21 years old...
If Bledsoe can improve a lot from age of 24 to 25... Why cant Goodwin improve a lot too from age 21 to 25.... Just better ceiling IMO.


Bogdanovic.. My second favorite suns prospect... Well.. Absolutelt want him to play.. But where are the minutes????



Kawhi Leonard is my absolute favourite player at the moment..humble and a great team player.
Suns need players like him.... Great team offensive players with a nose for defense.


At this time... I only see Bledsoe, Goodwin, Tucker and Chandler as the players who actually make a difference defensively... And 2 of them I want traded.

toward the end of the year, Len was hitting his mid range shots just fine. What he was missing was contested 0-5 foot shots.

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

Bwgood77,

"WCS and #8 is not much off from Booker and # 5." You do not seriously believe that do you? C'mon. Do a side by side comparison between Booker and Stein's rookie seasons. I find it shocking you would make a statement like that. Plus there is a massive difference between pick 5 and pick 8. Each slot the pick drops takes away value.

And after Carter was traded to the Nets, what did he do? He played four and a half seasons for them. When you combine the first part of 2004 with the Raptors with the subsequent years with the Nets, he averaged 23 ppg, 6 rbs, and 5 ast between 2004-09. He missed only 16 games over that five year period. Never missed more than six games in any of those seasons. He also made three all-star teams with the Nets. The Nets made the playoffs three times with him and his playoff averages were 26 ppg, 7 rbs, and 5 ast. The 2005-06 Nets team finished the season 49-33. The same record as the 2002-03 Nets team that made the finals.

Fast forward from 2004 to 2016 and Vince Carter is still playing today. He is still a contributor on teams making the playoffs. See how you can never tell what will happen to a player and why every player no matter who they are is a risk. Wasn't Steve Nash an enormous red flag in 2004 when the Suns signed him? Cuban said so himself multiple times that his team's doctors said do not sign him because his back will not hold up. Look how that worked out for the Suns. Jason Kidd had microfracture knee surgery in 2004. He played another ten years. Amare had it in 2005. Still playing today. Webber and Hardaway had it and it ruined their careers. Kobe was still an MVP caliber player in 2013 when an achilles injury destroyed his career. You never know with these things.

I'd much rather have Booker than WCS. But Sacramento wanted that defensive presence next to Cousins, and a guy who could guard anyone. They serve a different purpose. Booker is the better player imo, but Sacramento drafted what they needed, so to them, WCS likely holds close to the value to them that Booker does to us.

But the point is, they are trading away their first round pick from a year ago, a guy taken 5 picks higher than our pick, and a pick likely 3 picks lower than us this year. And I said "not far off" mostly because I don't think the 5th pick this year is much better than the 8th. For sure I'd rather have Booker than WCS though.

But regardless of that, I never said I'd we'd have to trade Booker AND our first.....I said either/or....and Chicago is asking for both of them with Sacramento in that hypothetical. Personally I don't like WCS, but that doesn't mean a lot of others don't, particularly the management that drafted him and the fans that have watched him and pull for them.

Vince is still playing and playing pretty well. He is a guy that adapted fairly well to his limitations and although he has questionable effort sometimes, he has had a nice career. But he still had huge problems with management like Markieff and Dragic did, and asked to be traded like they did, and also made a boatload more money than they did.

So with him there were four things going on. Blaming management, asking for a trade, making a ton of money when there was a limited cap and they would soon have to pay TMAC, and injury concerns.

Yes Carter had many issues going on between him and the organization. He also had some injury concerns. But ultimately he was still a superstar in his prime that got traded for virtually nothing compared to what he was worth. Markieff also had serious issues between himself and the organization. The difference between them is caliber of player. Carter was an all-NBA all-star and one of the most popular basketball players in the world while Markieff is a role playing, sixth man style player. They are not comparable. Yet the net result of what the Raptors and Suns got in return for them is basically the same.

Here is another trade where a superstar was traded still in the prime of his career for a package nowhere near what he was worth. Shaq was traded in 2004 (after a finals appearance) for Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Brian Grant, the 26th pick of 2006 draft, and the 50th pick of the 2007 draft. Lamar Odom was a good, young player but Butler and Grant never did anything for the Lakers. It took a few years after that trade for the Lakers to become great again and that is because they lucked out and got Pau Gasol. Meanwhile, the Heat won a championship with Shaq so obviously the traded worked out as well as possible for them.

Thought we had already discussed Shaq here. Lopsided yes, but Odom was a hell of a player, drafted 4th with oozing potential and Butler was a young promising guy (10th pick) on a rookie contract in between his 2nd and 3rd year, a guy who had played better than Booker as a rookie. http://bkref.com/tiny/167iG

But outside of all that, Kobe had pretty much demanded they had to make a choice or Kobe would leave in FA. So go with Kobe, Odom and Butler or stick with an aging Shaq? And not a bad return for them at all considering the circumstances.

[Qwigglez]

Booker is a better player. He's probably a top 30 player next season. There I said it.

Are you kidding me? This board is beyond delusional. It pains me to say it but lets be real, a sophomore Book is still a slight downgrade from Knight as a starter

Yes. Actually I was kidding you. So relax man. Its the off-season, lighten the mood a bit.

[Qwigglez]

I think the following FA activities will transpire.
- Conley to Spurs or Knicks
- P.Gasol to Spurs or Knicks depending on who lands Conley

- Durant stays at Thunder

- Thunder goes for a veteran SG like Courtney Lee and a veteran SF defender.

- Barnes stay at Warriors for near max.

- Celtics gets Cousins or Love or Horford

- Howard leaves Rockets and joins Mavericks or Hawks

Is TP retiring or are you just thinking that the Spurs is a likely destination because he would fit their system? I thought Conley was gonna demand huge money this offseason too. I could actually see Lin going to the Spurs.

Pau to Spurs is definitely happening. No way he goes to Knicks. Dude wants another ring, plus he won't have to play defense.

Celtics getting Cousins I agree with. I'm disappointed Love is playing well in the playoffs so I doubt he is traded. Horford is a wild card to me, I have no clue where he is going.

Howard goes to Dallas, and I hope Rockets suck for the next half decade. No free agent is gonna go there on a discount.

Not sure where Whiteside goes.