2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - the calm before the storm

[sunskerr]

We can trade Book to BKN to play with the twins for our picks in a few years when we have no options left. BKN is said to be holding out for a star to pair with Bridges.

[bwgood77]

To add to my last point about saying trading for KD was a hail mary for the Booker-era Suns. To say that with Booker's age (plus Mikal's and Cam's at about the same age)...

would be like saying LeBron's first year in Miami was the last hail mary in the LeBron era (he was the same age as Booker was when KD trade went down). Or for KD, his 2nd to last year in OKC was the beginning of the end for the KD era (same age too). Now of course it was for KD in OKC, but he still is in his 8th year after that and won a couple of titles. LeBron is in his 13th after that and won 4 titles since then.

Now of course they went to super teams after that...and Miami still had 2 more years, but Bosh was 26 and Wade 29 and then LeBron joined Kyrie who was 22 and Love who was 26. Then after 4 years in Cleveland and 1 year in LA, AD, who was 26, joined him.

KD obviously ended up going to super teams too....the first obviously the team that just came off having the best record in history, a team that had already won a title.

Now I guess you could argue the final hail mary of the Book era in Phx meant he would move on in a couple of years to super teams, like those guys did, I don't think so...I think those guys continue to improve, and we add a more experienced Beal (along with Allen) and swap Cs to compete for the now and use all our firsts each year to be ready for the future post Beal, when Book, Bridges and Cam are still all only around 30.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

To add to my last point about saying trading for KD was a hail mary for the Booker-era Suns. To say that with Booker's age (plus Mikal's and Cam's at about the same age)...

would be like saying LeBron's first year in Miami was the last hail mary in the LeBron era (he was the same age as Booker was when KD trade went down). Or for KD, his 2nd to last year in OKC was the beginning of the end for the KD era (same age too). Now of course it was for KD in OKC, but he still is in his 8th year after that and won a couple of titles. LeBron is in his 13th after that and won 4 titles since then.

Now of course they went to super teams after that...and Miami still had 2 more years, but Bosh was 26 and Wade 29 and then LeBron joined Kyrie who was 22 and Love who was 26. Then after 4 years in Cleveland and 1 year in LA, AD, who was 26, joined him.

KD obviously ended up going to super teams too....the first obviously the team that just came off having the best record in history, a team that had already won a title.

Now I guess you could argue the final hail mary of the Book era in Phx meant he would move on in a couple of years to super teams, like those guys did, I don't think so...I think those guys continue to improve, and we add a more experienced Beal (along with Allen) and swap Cs to compete for the now and use all our firsts each year to be ready for the future post Beal, when Book, Bridges and Cam are still all only around 30.

What would it even mean for the Lebron-era Cavs to have thrown a hail mary? He took that team to the Finals year after year. They started every season at first and goal.

I think trading KD but keeping Booker would be more analogous to Garnett's Wolves after they lost Gugliotta and traded Marbury and lost their picks in the Joe Smith fiasco, except KG was so young... Westbrook's post-KD Thunder? The Blazers with Lillard and McCollum (assuming Beal stays)? The KJ Suns post-Barkley?

I have a hard time believing Booker would want to stick around if we moved KD, so the alternative to blowing it up (I think) is keeping this band together for another set. I guess I admit, I like Nurk. But a few years ago we had potential and an all-time top 10 PG. Maybe you're right, in which case I sure hope we land Michael Finley in the draft this summer.

...... You know, if Bol Bol was getting 28 minutes a night, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I'd at least start watching the games. Oh, well. Let's see what Tankathon has to say about the 2024 Draft class.

[Calvin Klein]

I don't think there's was that much thought put into the KD trade. Ishbia just wanted to make a big move and he did it. Short sighted. He got what he wanted, except a contending team. But he got headlines, he got love from the fans, he got a lot of jersey, tickets, merch sales, etc.

[bwgood77]

To add to my last point about saying trading for KD was a hail mary for the Booker-era Suns. To say that with Booker's age (plus Mikal's and Cam's at about the same age)...

would be like saying LeBron's first year in Miami was the last hail mary in the LeBron era (he was the same age as Booker was when KD trade went down). Or for KD, his 2nd to last year in OKC was the beginning of the end for the KD era (same age too). Now of course it was for KD in OKC, but he still is in his 8th year after that and won a couple of titles. LeBron is in his 13th after that and won 4 titles since then.

Now of course they went to super teams after that...and Miami still had 2 more years, but Bosh was 26 and Wade 29 and then LeBron joined Kyrie who was 22 and Love who was 26. Then after 4 years in Cleveland and 1 year in LA, AD, who was 26, joined him.

KD obviously ended up going to super teams too....the first obviously the team that just came off having the best record in history, a team that had already won a title.

Now I guess you could argue the final hail mary of the Book era in Phx meant he would move on in a couple of years to super teams, like those guys did, I don't think so...I think those guys continue to improve, and we add a more experienced Beal (along with Allen) and swap Cs to compete for the now and use all our firsts each year to be ready for the future post Beal, when Book, Bridges and Cam are still all only around 30.

What would it even mean for the Lebron-era Cavs to have thrown a hail mary? He took that team to the Finals year after year. They started every season at first and goal.

I think trading KD but keeping Booker would be more analogous to Garnett's Wolves after they lost Gugliotta and traded Marbury and lost their picks in the Joe Smith fiasco, except KG was so young... Westbrook's post-KD Thunder? The Blazers with Lillard and McCollum (assuming Beal stays)? The KJ Suns post-Barkley?

I have a hard time believing Booker would want to stick around if we moved KD, so the alternative to blowing it up (I think) is keeping this band together for another set. I guess I admit, I like Nurk. But a few years ago we had potential and an all-time top 10 PG. Maybe you're right, in which case I sure hope we land Michael Finley in the draft this summer.

...... You know, if Bol Bol was getting 28 minutes a night, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I'd at least start watching the games. Oh, well. Let's see what Tankathon has to say about the 2024 Draft class.

I was just saying that the comment about throwing a hail mary for the "Booker era" makes it sound like he's old and we don't have much time with him, when he just signed him for a super max, so we didn't need to do some hail mary because he had a decade left and we had another player only 26 who was already solid but rapidly expanding his game and is highly coveted around the league in Bridges sharpshooter and great team player Cam, Jae as an asset to get someone like Grayson Allen, and Ayton to trade...AND all our picks.

The trade yes, may have made us a little bit better now (or maybe not) but our window with Booker is incredibly shortened because we not only did we trade away two other good young players and a player asset, but a bunch of unprotected picks through 2029....so we can't add to the arsenal...and draft picks are the best way to add to an over the cap team.

With trading Paul and Shamet for Beal we could have given us a second star to have alongside Book, Bridges, Cam, Allen and Nurkic (for Ayton) and someone else for Jae or trade Jae for Allen and get someone else.

I just think there was a way to keep us in the conversation now (though I knew the west would be brutal either way) and continue to build for the future with our young core once Beal and Nurk get too old, we will have made 4 first round draft picks.

The only mention regarding LeBron and KD was comparing what stage they were at in their career age wise compared to Book's age when we traded for 35 year old KD. At the time the average of 40 games a season too was worrisome but at least he's had his healthiest season in years.

But yeah, I agree, I don't see them trading KD and will run it back but I don't think KD will have too much trade value in a couple years when he will be 38 or a late 37.

If we did blow it up, I do think we could get a massive haul for Book though. I don't see us ever trading him though unless he asks out.

I agree. I want to see more Bol Bol. I'd completely remove all of Eubanks minutes and play Bol instead...and sometimes maybe play him at the 4.

[bwgood77]

I don't think there's was that much thought put into the KD trade. Ishbia just wanted to make a big move and he did it. Short sighted. He got what he wanted, except a contending team. But he got headlines, he got love from the fans, he got a lot of jersey, tickets, merch sales, etc.

Yeah, I do wonder how much he had watched the team the previous few years. I don't think James Jones wanted to even put Bridges in a deal, but I think Ish told him to after we had gone back and forth and they were about to do it, but then the Nets said they wanted Crowder also, and that's when Ish said no, probably for ego..we finally give in and they ask for more. But then at dinner with friends, he does give in. It's amazing Crowder held up the deal a bit.

What's amazing though is I was worried about injuries with KD and maybe a start to decline (though maybe not a decline until next year or the year after), but he has been very healthy and pretty much as good as ever, with insane shooting splits....and great defense.

So given that, yes, it's weird we are not a contending team as you say.

I'd like to think in my mind we are still a contending team though when we are clicking....I just don't want to give up hope now, given this is probably our best chance as we get older and the younger teams get better.

[Calvin Klein]

Isaiah Thomas. We're saved.

[Revived]

Lol after denying needing a PG since training camp they finally cave in to acquire…Isaiah Thomas?

Lmfao

[Hitachi77]

Everything would fall nicely into place if Beal or Booker came off the bench. Never will happen but I think it’s a non 0% chance if we flame out in the playoffs.

Why? Early offense would feature KD and Book. Allen and Royce would play off of them and get into a nice rhythm. Royce would defend the opposing teams best player. Then around the 4 minute mark Beal comes in for Book and immediately is the focus of the offense. KD plays off of him because he’s one of the few superstars who can, and it lets him get a breather. Teams would struggle to defend this, particularly with their second units in. KD sits for around 6 minutes if the 2nd, during which it’s Booker and Beal time. From that point, the rotations are nicely set, everyone playing in a natural position, and you can choose to play the big 3 together if appropriate.

But now we have a bit of an identity crisis in the beginning with the big 3. We don’t know who to feature, and Royce is underutilized by coming off the bench. If we started Royce, Allen might have trouble getting into rhythm with the 2nd unit. Not only that, but we end up with whack 2nd units as we try to rest 2 of the big 3, and teams capitalize on it.

If we flame out this year, hopefully they consider it next year.

[bwgood77]

Everything would fall nicely into place if Beal or Booker came off the bench. Never will happen but I think it’s a non 0% chance if we flame out in the playoffs.

Why? Early offense would feature KD and Book. Allen and Royce would play off of them and get into a nice rhythm. Royce would defend the opposing teams best player. Then around the 4 minute mark Beal comes in for Book and immediately is the focus of the offense. KD plays off of him because he’s one of the few superstars who can, and it lets him get a breather. Teams would struggle to defend this, particularly with their second units in. KD sits for around 6 minutes if the 2nd, during which it’s Booker and Beal time. From that point, the rotations are nicely set, everyone playing in a natural position, and you can choose to play the big 3 together if appropriate.

But now we have a bit of an identity crisis in the beginning with the big 3. We don’t know who to feature, and Royce is underutilized by coming off the bench. If we started Royce, Allen might have trouble getting into rhythm with the 2nd unit. Not only that, but we end up with whack 2nd units as we try to rest 2 of the big 3, and teams capitalize on it.

If we flame out this year, hopefully they consider it next year.

I think you want to maximize their time, so it's a bit dumb not to start them to get the more rest between playing times. These guys are used to their own substitution patterns too. Beal does check out pretty early, around the 6 minute mark, and then comes in to end the quarters. So he gets a mid quarter break and the break at the quarter. So he gets more shorter spurts, which rotates well with Book who plays the entire first quarter and sits out like half of the beginning of the second...and with KD in there, they really don't have a ton of overlaps with all 3 outside of like the first and last six minutes of the game.

[Hitachi77]

Everything would fall nicely into place if Beal or Booker came off the bench. Never will happen but I think it’s a non 0% chance if we flame out in the playoffs.

Why? Early offense would feature KD and Book. Allen and Royce would play off of them and get into a nice rhythm. Royce would defend the opposing teams best player. Then around the 4 minute mark Beal comes in for Book and immediately is the focus of the offense. KD plays off of him because he’s one of the few superstars who can, and it lets him get a breather. Teams would struggle to defend this, particularly with their second units in. KD sits for around 6 minutes if the 2nd, during which it’s Booker and Beal time. From that point, the rotations are nicely set, everyone playing in a natural position, and you can choose to play the big 3 together if appropriate.

But now we have a bit of an identity crisis in the beginning with the big 3. We don’t know who to feature, and Royce is underutilized by coming off the bench. If we started Royce, Allen might have trouble getting into rhythm with the 2nd unit. Not only that, but we end up with whack 2nd units as we try to rest 2 of the big 3, and teams capitalize on it.

If we flame out this year, hopefully they consider it next year.

I think you want to maximize their time, so it's a bit dumb not to start them to get the more rest between playing times. These guys are used to their own substitution patterns too. Beal does check out pretty early, around the 6 minute mark, and then comes in to end the quarters. So he gets a mid quarter break and the break at the quarter. So he gets more shorter spurts, which rotates well with Book who plays the entire first quarter and sits out like half of the beginning of the second...and with KD in there, they really don't have a ton of overlaps with all 3 outside of like the first and last six minutes of the game.

I’m just talking about what I think would work best both offensively and defensively. At our best, we looking really really good, but that’s the case whether we have 2 or 3 stars playing (not 1 obviously). Our best perimeter defender, other than KD who we don’t want to have to expend a lot of energy playing D, is Royce. Because of diminishing returns, we just might not be that much better offensively with 3 stars out there than 2, especially since Beal and Book don’t shoot as well as Allen. It might be a bigger drop off defensively too, since again, Booker and Beal don’t defend as well as Royce and are generally looking to focus on offense as well.

But in addition to that, the advantage we would have with the 2nd unit would be massive. Which now, even if we have 2 stars playing at that time, they are likely a tad gassed from the 1st quarter.

[sunskerr]

Great meme pickup lol not gonna lie. Had a chuckle when I saw the headline.

[Saberestar]

Lol after denying needing a PG since training camp they finally cave in to acquire…Isaiah Thomas?

Lmfao

The FO have denied the need of an starting PG but we needed a PG for the end of the rotation/bench.

We had Jordan Goodwin on that role but once he was traded at the deadline Saben Lee had his opportunity to show his value but he failed for his lack of shooting.

We have already on the roster a bunch of non shooters so Isaiah being a terrific 3p shooter and a solid distributor fits nicely on that 15th spot.

[Son of Ra]

Off topic to he current discussion but was it ever explained how it made sense hat 7&8 and 9&10 play each other in the play in? So from the get go a worse team is guaranteed a spot over a better one? Why not 7&10 and 8&9? Excuse my choice of words but that's absolutely idiotic.

9 and 10 are NOT guaranteed anything. They need to win two games to make the playoffs. 7 and 8 only need to win once.

What doesn’t make sense to me is not having a game difference limit on who makes it. Chicago and Atlanta are like 4 games behind the 8th seed. They should not have the chance to eliminate the 7 and 8 seed from the playoffs. It wouldn’t be just unfair but it would also make a much more terrible 1sr round matchup against the best team in the conference.

Thanks for clearing that up, ignorance on my part.

[handsome salary]

If they fail to make the playoffs or lose the play in game is Ishbia going to write the apology letter to the fans this season instead of Jones?

[Revived]

Lol after denying needing a PG since training camp they finally cave in to acquire…Isaiah Thomas?

Lmfao

The FO have denied the need of an starting PG but we needed a PG for the end of the rotation/bench.

We had Jordan Goodwin on that role but once he was traded at the deadline Saben Lee had his opportunity to show his value but he failed for his lack of shooting.

We have already on the roster a bunch of non shooters so Isaiah being a terrific 3p shooter and a solid distributor fits nicely on that 15th spot.

And there were better PGs that could’ve been acquired for end of rotation/bench like Tyus Jones for example. There were reports Washington would deal him for multiple 2nd rd picks.

https://www.bulletsforever.com/2024/2/2/24059666/washington-wizards-tyus-jones-nba-trade-rumors-second-round-draft-picks

And then you have Vogel spouting nonsense like this

Read on Twitter

[TeamTragic]

How does Vogel still have a job? The entire coaching staff has no clue to play basketball. The constant fourth quarter meltdowns and avoidable turnovers should be a clear sign.

You have KD/Booker/Beal on this team and Vogel still puts out these garbage lineups. This absolutely blows my mind on multiple levels and the entire league clearly takes advantage.

I don't trust this team during the regular season much less the playoffs. We better see a whole new coaching staff in the offseason.

[Revived]

Read on Twitter

[garrick]

Lol after denying needing a PG since training camp they finally cave in to acquire…Isaiah Thomas?

Lmfao

The FO have denied the need of an starting PG but we needed a PG for the end of the rotation/bench.

We had Jordan Goodwin on that role but once he was traded at the deadline Saben Lee had his opportunity to show his value but he failed for his lack of shooting.

We have already on the roster a bunch of non shooters so Isaiah being a terrific 3p shooter and a solid distributor fits nicely on that 15th spot.

And there were better PGs that could’ve been acquired for end of rotation/bench like Tyus Jones for example. There were reports Washington would deal him for multiple 2nd rd picks.

https://www.bulletsforever.com/2024/2/2/24059666/washington-wizards-tyus-jones-nba-trade-rumors-second-round-draft-picks

And then you have Vogel spouting nonsense like this

Read on Twitter

Yeah stubbornly clinging to the idea that this team doesn't need a point guard is just asinine but not getting a good point guard is something JJ has been consistent about after he signed CP3 and called it a day.

It makes the Payne trade extremely questionable since he was on a reasonable contract and was traded for essentially salary cap relief. He isn't a pure point guard but it's better than what we have right now which is Saben Lee.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Get a competent coach then we can judge our talent

140 points without Giannis