Game 46: The Goodwin & Booker Show

[bwgood77]

Apparently Jerami Grant is better. He needs to stay starting for the rest of the season. Knight needs to be shipped ASAP he is not the answer to this team that's for sure.

Grant only a little better most advanced stats favor him, such as WS/48 that AtheJ415 says is a good one, VORP...as far as BPM, about the same on offense (negative), and Grant a net positive on defense, where as Archie is a negative there, so Grant weighs out a -2.2 while Archie is a -4.4.

But they play different positions, so hard to compare, and minutes are different, so you might look at per 36 too..Grant gets more blocks, rebounds and better from 3, Archie slightly more pts, assists and steals.

If you'd like to study it for educational purposes, here is their comparison http://bkref.com/tiny/8xjbU

e
I don't think Grant is a bust or anything. Too soon to tell. But I'd rather have Archie personally. Archie still has a ways to go IQ-wise, but his 3 point shot is improving and if he ever adds a floater his offensive game will improve dramatically.

Yeah, he is coming along..never liked the low IQ, the whining, etc, but I'm always more vested into our own guys. Heck, with these recent games, maybe he pushes a nice trade over the top. Of course that would make a few livid here though even if we got a star or great piece/picks back.

[bwgood77]

You really think at best that's what Archie is? I'm not sure man, he's never been given much of a shot and at this point only really has because of our injury situation. He's 21 and these last 3 games especially he's flashed some pretty nice upside....definitely things to work on as all kids his age do but I think/hope he can become a key part of our core......any which way, he just needs to keep playing, because once he starts getting scouted more things will change a bit but we need have a definitive answer as to what we have here.......

It's definitely better than watching Brandon "I am a pure point" Knight jack up awful shots and not get others involved enough, that alone is impacting on the development of all our youngsters much less that of Goodwins himself.

Oh, I certainly enjoy watching him more than Knight except for those few games Knight was on fire. But part of the problem of him not playing is that McD keeps signing other guards in front of him. Since drafting him he traded for Bledsoe, IT, Knight, etc.

It's debatable whether when we were still in win now mode if Archie should have played over a guy like Price, but I'm happy he looks good now. He got in earlier in the season and looked awful.

I will always be vested in our own players to some extent, especially the ones we draft, but when comparing teams I try not to be too homerish and at least objective and try to see the other team's players from their fans point of view.

I think his upside is probably a Barbosa type of player.

[SSOL]

Hornacek is a genius. Bench Goodwin for 2+ years.

I don't know if he's a genius, but it looks like Goodwin worked hard enough for long enough under his tutelage to start to look pretty good once he finally earned the opportunity, so hats off to Jeff for that.

If you think that is all Jeff's decision, you are foolish.

[SSOL]

Hornacek is a genius. Bench Goodwin for 2+ years.

I don't know if he's a genius, but it looks like Goodwin worked hard enough for long enough under his tutelage to start to look pretty good once he finally earned the opportunity, so hats off to Jeff for that.

Are you serious? Goodwin could not even get off the bench before Ronnie Price. Look how little he played all season until Bledsoe, Price, and then Knight went down. He barely played. He never played his first two years. Suddenly Hornacek is forced to play him and he has three straight 20 point games because he is finally getting real playing time.

Hornacek is a moron.

Goodwin wasn't close to being capable of putting up this type of production two years ago. And as I said before, management has as much to do with the benching as Jeff.

[bwgood77]

I don't know if he's a genius, but it looks like Goodwin worked hard enough for long enough under his tutelage to start to look pretty good once he finally earned the opportunity, so hats off to Jeff for that.

Are you serious? Goodwin could not even get off the bench before Ronnie Price. Look how little he played all season until Bledsoe, Price, and then Knight went down. He barely played. He never played his first two years. Suddenly Hornacek is forced to play him and he has three straight 20 point games because he is finally getting real playing time.

Hornacek is a moron.

Goodwin wasn't close to being capable of putting up this type of production two years ago. And as I said before, management has as much to do with the benching as Jeff.

Curious, why do you say management had as much to do with that? Because they signed like 3 point guards last year and two the year prior and this year, or are you insinuating there is more to it than that?

[thamadkant]

Grant only a little better most advanced stats favor him, such as WS/48 that AtheJ415 says is a good one, VORP...as far as BPM, about the same on offense (negative), and Grant a net positive on defense, where as Archie is a negative there, so Grant weighs out a -2.2 while Archie is a -4.4.

But they play different positions, so hard to compare, and minutes are different, so you might look at per 36 too..Grant gets more blocks, rebounds and better from 3, Archie slightly more pts, assists and steals.

If you'd like to study it for educational purposes, here is their comparison http://bkref.com/tiny/8xjbU

e
I don't think Grant is a bust or anything. Too soon to tell. But I'd rather have Archie personally. Archie still has a ways to go IQ-wise, but his 3 point shot is improving and if he ever adds a floater his offensive game will improve dramatically.

Yeah, he is coming along..never liked the low IQ, the whining, etc, but I'm always more vested into our own guys. Heck, with these recent games, maybe he pushes a nice trade over the top. Of course that would make a few livid here though even if we got a star or great piece/picks back.

Not really.

Always stated that Goodwin ISNT a throw in, especially when you dont know what he is capable of.

But if the right deal comes along... heck most stars are available for the right price.

[thamadkant]

Jimmy Butler didnt show star potential until he was 24.... he was considered a late bloomer at 23, but good enough to ship Deng off to save cash.

A hard off-season workout and training propelled Butler to what he is today.

Goodwin has good work ethic from all accounts.

[letsgosuns]

I don't know if he's a genius, but it looks like Goodwin worked hard enough for long enough under his tutelage to start to look pretty good once he finally earned the opportunity, so hats off to Jeff for that.

Are you serious? Goodwin could not even get off the bench before Ronnie Price. Look how little he played all season until Bledsoe, Price, and then Knight went down. He barely played. He never played his first two years. Suddenly Hornacek is forced to play him and he has three straight 20 point games because he is finally getting real playing time.

Hornacek is a moron.

Are you just going to **** whine EVERY time you see something it, be it a positive or negative? Because frankly people are **** sick of hearing it. Archie has played well, and there are 100 ways to look at it. If he would have played as a starter in game 1 of his rookie season would he have played like he did tonight? No. When the proper time is to give guys big minutes is unknown. Many guys are deemed busts.....would they have been with more development time? Maybe, maybe not. Many guys are great out of the gate, but many are not.

Archie was a terrible disappointment at Kentucky, a team that is always a final four team....(not only could he not get them EVEN IN the 68 team tourney, but as a 1 seed in the NIT against Robert Morris, they lost against the overall lowest seed.) and slid down from being a top prospect to barely getting drafted in the first round. Calipari said he can't coach him at one time. He flat out SUCKED coming out of college and has flat out SUCKED almost every time he has played until maybe once last year and recently. All of our young guys have come along nicely. Hornacek is known as a development coach. I'd rather see more of these guys sooner and I don't mind losing for a better draft pick but I don't want our young guys to be thrown to the wolves either.

People are sick of hearing it?

First off, I do not even post that much. And you know what, as long as Hornacek IS GOING TO KEEP ON PLAYING MARKIEFF, then I will continue to say whatever I want about him. Markieff should never play.

And my point is valid. Other people agree. Plus I can say whatever I want. This is a message board about the Phoenix Suns. I am talking about the Suns head coach. If that is not allowed and you think I am breaking some kind of forum rules or whatever, then just ban me. It is not like I am making a thread everyday saying fire Hornacek. Tonight Hornacek did more stupid rotations and I pointed it out. I also pointed out a fact that Hornacek never played Goodwin. Not to mention but this is the worst Suns team in franchise history other than their first year so if you expect posters to post happy posts constantly you are kidding yourself.

And Hornacek is a development coach? What? Idk about that.

I also do not care about what Goodwin did in college. I care about playing him at the NBA level. If you want to see the one game he got at least 30 minutes in his rookie year then look at this:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZrVU-mmhVQ[/youtube]

Goodwin did the same type of stuff in his first year that he is doing now. A player cannot develop just in practice. It is impossible.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Bad players don't score 18 points in a quarter when they're 21.

[bwgood77]

People are sick of hearing it?

Yes, many people are. I hear about it all the time.

First off, I do not even post that much. And you know what, as long as Hornacek IS GOING TO KEEP ON PLAYING MARKIEFF, then I will continue to say whatever I want about him. Markieff should never play.

If it is strictly Jeff, and there is no front office discussion saying "lets play him just to see if he has a good game to improve trade value" I would agree. But I'm guessing there is some of the conversation about how best to showcase trade value. But I don't know, don't want to make assumptions, so I won't.

And my point is valid. Other people agree. Plus I can say whatever I want. This is a message board about the Phoenix Suns. I am talking about the Suns head coach. If that is not allowed and you think I am breaking some kind of forum rules or whatever, then just ban me. It is not like I am making a thread everyday saying fire Hornacek. Tonight Hornacek did more stupid rotations and I pointed it out. I also pointed out a fact that Hornacek never played Goodwin. Not to mention but this is the worst Suns team in franchise history other than their first year so if you expect posters to post happy posts constantly you are kidding yourself.

The reason this is the worst team in franchise history is a combination of many factors, multiple objectives, trying to rebuild and somehow contend, sign guys to big money put in front of our young guys, so part of Archie playing is not only he is behind Bledsoe and Dragic, and then 3 guys for part of last year, and then know Bledsoe and Knight, and then Booker is certainly better than him, so he got minutes first.

And Hornacek is a development coach? What? Idk about that.

OK

I also do not care about what Goodwin did in college. I care about playing him at the NBA level.

That's why I think your post about getting to play really early when Sarver wanted the playoffs is shortsighted.

If you want to see the one game he got at least 30 minutes in his rookie year then look at this:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZrVU-mmhVQ[/youtube]

Goodwin did the same type of stuff in his first year that he is doing now. A player cannot develop just in practice. It is impossible.

Yeah, I was thinking that game was last year, which was the good game in a previous year I was referring to. But I could probably post videos about the other 51 games he got minutes that year....no, actually probably not, because no one would have taken the time to make a video of that crap.

[jcsunsfan]

Are you serious? Goodwin could not even get off the bench before Ronnie Price. Look how little he played all season until Bledsoe, Price, and then Knight went down. He barely played. He never played his first two years. Suddenly Hornacek is forced to play him and he has three straight 20 point games because he is finally getting real playing time.

Hornacek is a moron.

Are you just going to **** whine EVERY time you see something it, be it a positive or negative? Because frankly people are **** sick of hearing it. Archie has played well, and there are 100 ways to look at it. If he would have played as a starter in game 1 of his rookie season would he have played like he did tonight? No. When the proper time is to give guys big minutes is unknown. Many guys are deemed busts.....would they have been with more development time? Maybe, maybe not. Many guys are great out of the gate, but many are not.

Archie was a terrible disappointment at Kentucky, a team that is always a final four team....(not only could he not get them EVEN IN the 68 team tourney, but as a 1 seed in the NIT against Robert Morris, they lost against the overall lowest seed.) and slid down from being a top prospect to barely getting drafted in the first round. Calipari said he can't coach him at one time. He flat out SUCKED coming out of college and has flat out SUCKED almost every time he has played until maybe once last year and recently. All of our young guys have come along nicely. Hornacek is known as a development coach. I'd rather see more of these guys sooner and I don't mind losing for a better draft pick but I don't want our young guys to be thrown to the wolves either.

People are sick of hearing it?

First off, I do not even post that much. And you know what, as long as Hornacek IS GOING TO KEEP ON PLAYING MARKIEFF, then I will continue to say whatever I want about him. Markieff should never play.

And my point is valid. Other people agree. Plus I can say whatever I want. This is a message board about the Phoenix Suns. I am talking about the Suns head coach. If that is not allowed and you think I am breaking some kind of forum rules or whatever, then just ban me. It is not like I am making a thread everyday saying fire Hornacek. Tonight Hornacek did more stupid rotations and I pointed it out. I also pointed out a fact that Hornacek never played Goodwin. Not to mention but this is the worst Suns team in franchise history other than their first year so if you expect posters to post happy posts constantly you are kidding yourself.

And Hornacek is a development coach? What? Idk about that.

I also do not care about what Goodwin did in college. I care about playing him at the NBA level. If you want to see the one game he got at least 30 minutes in his rookie year then look at this:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZrVU-mmhVQ[/youtube]

Goodwin did the same type of stuff in his first year that he is doing now. A player cannot develop just in practice. It is impossible.

But every post says almost exactly the same thing. OK. We get it. You think Hornacek is a moron.

BTW. Archie is not as good as this game either. I am glad he got some burn, but he is a Gerald Green type. You watch. Great games that make you think that something is there and then he loses his brain altogether. They have just been waiting for his brain to catch up with his talent.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Best thing we can do for the rest of season is convince Sarver these 4 guys are going to be the core of the next great Suns team, as Ryan McDonough calls it.

Then he might be willing to let them get game time over the next couple of years and we can ship out some players in the way.

[bwgood77]

e
I don't think Grant is a bust or anything. Too soon to tell. But I'd rather have Archie personally. Archie still has a ways to go IQ-wise, but his 3 point shot is improving and if he ever adds a floater his offensive game will improve dramatically.

Yeah, he is coming along..never liked the low IQ, the whining, etc, but I'm always more vested into our own guys. Heck, with these recent games, maybe he pushes a nice trade over the top. Of course that would make a few livid here though even if we got a star or great piece/picks back.

Not really.

Always stated that Goodwin ISNT a throw in, especially when you dont know what he is capable of.

But if the right deal comes along... heck most stars are available for the right price.

Curious, would you trade Goodwin to the Sixers to get the Lakers protected pick back?

[Puff]

Hornacek is a genius. Bench Goodwin for 2+ years.

I don't know if he's a genius, but it looks like Goodwin worked hard enough for long enough under his tutelage to start to look pretty good once he finally earned the opportunity, so hats off to Jeff for that.

Come on stop it. The protection for Hornacek is without any substance.

Surely some of us may be over the top on wanting Hornacek gone but he really is not worth a crap. Reggie and the great genius Barkley did not like MDA when he was coaching the Suns to the WCF and winning 58 games per year with exciting basketball but protect the stuff a Hornacek coached team runs on a nightly basis. Yeah I am going to really give credence to anything they have to say.

The only reason Goodwin is getting off the freaking bench is because of injuries. If he had earned his time why did it take BOTH Bledsoe and Knight getting hurt to give him minutes?

I also highly doubt that Hornacek has anything to do with Goodwin's progression other than Jeff participating in the daily 3 point shooting fests. I expect all the other development stuff is delegated to one of his assistant coaches and Archies work ethic, which is supposed to be very good.

MDA 2 - Hornacek 0

Who would win tonight's game if MDA was coaching our offense and Ish Smith was our point guard?

Since MDA arrived on the scene in Philadelphia he has had a big part in turning a 1 and 30 record setting Philadelphia squad into a 500 club, but most folks here treat him like a cold turd while thinking Hornacek a genius.

Gimme a break

[bwgood77]

Hornacek is a genius. Bench Goodwin for 2+ years.

I don't know if he's a genius, but it looks like Goodwin worked hard enough for long enough under his tutelage to start to look pretty good once he finally earned the opportunity, so hats off to Jeff for that.

Come on stop it. The protection for Hornacek is without any substance.

Surely some of us may be over the top on wanting Hornacek gone but he really is not worth a crap. Reggie and the great genius Barkley did not like MDA when he was coaching the Suns to the WCF and winning 58 games per year with exciting basketball but protect the stuff a Hornacek coached team runs on a nightly basis. Yeah I am going to really give credence to anything they have to say.

The only reason Goodwin is getting off the freaking bench is because of injuries. If he had earned his time why did it take BOTH Bledsoe and Knight getting hurt to give him minutes?

I also highly doubt that Hornacek has anything to do with Goodwin's progression other than Jeff participating in the daily 3 point shooting fests. I expect all the other development stuff is delegated to one of his assistant coaches and Archies work ethic, which is supposed to be very good.

MDA 2 - Hornacek 0

Who would win tonight's game if MDA was coaching our offense and Ish Smith was our point guard?

Since MDA arrived on the scene in Philadelphia he has had a big part in turning a 1 and 30 record setting Philadelphia squad into a 500 club, but most folks here treat him like a cold turd while thinking Hornacek a genius.

Gimme a break

I think they are both good coaches overall. Both have been bad in bad situations as well and many fans throw all blame on coach. Ask many fans in NY or LA about D'Antoni and they feel just like you and others do about Hornacek now. Our entire situation is a complete mess.

If we had a stable team for more than a few months, I could properly judge him. I don't like some rotations, but I don't even know the current objectives from management and ownership.

Players like Reggie and Barkley do know how tough it is for a team to be successful when you have constant roster turnover, disgruntled players because of management, the dynamics of a locker room, etc. While I think they can make quick judgements, I think their opinions are as valid as yours or mine.

[thamadkant]

Yeah, he is coming along..never liked the low IQ, the whining, etc, but I'm always more vested into our own guys. Heck, with these recent games, maybe he pushes a nice trade over the top. Of course that would make a few livid here though even if we got a star or great piece/picks back.

Not really.

Always stated that Goodwin ISNT a throw in, especially when you dont know what he is capable of.

But if the right deal comes along... heck most stars are available for the right price.

Curious, would you trade Goodwin to the Sixers to get the Lakers protected pick back?

Unprotected next year.... Lakers still terrible... so top 10 pick possibly top 5. why not. Plus Goodwin probably gets more burn over there rather than rot on the bench in Phoenix.

But 76ers will never do it.


But Bledsoe they might.... also saves Suns 14 million whilst rebuilding.

[bwgood77]

Not really.

Always stated that Goodwin ISNT a throw in, especially when you dont know what he is capable of.

But if the right deal comes along... heck most stars are available for the right price.

Curious, would you trade Goodwin to the Sixers to get the Lakers protected pick back?

Unprotected next year.... Lakers still terrible... so top 10 pick possibly top 5. why not. Plus Goodwin probably gets more burn over there rather than rot on the bench in Phoenix.

But 76ers will never do it.


But Bledsoe they might.... also saves Suns 14 million whilst rebuilding.

It's still actually top 3 protected next year I think, and I know Philly wouldn't do it, but I was just wondering how highly some value Archie right now.

[jeff2020]

I must say I've watched all 3 games since Knight has been out and it's refreshing to watch this team finally just play hard. With Knight running the show everyone Just stands around on offense because nobody really expects him to pass them the ball even if they make a good cut or are open. Now at least players are moving off the ball and hustling. When everyone is involved and feels like a part of the team they play hard.

[thamadkant]

Since the youth started getting good minutes the score board doesnt even matter to me anymore.

The team is fun and interesting. And gives me hope.

[SSOL]

Are you serious? Goodwin could not even get off the bench before Ronnie Price. Look how little he played all season until Bledsoe, Price, and then Knight went down. He barely played. He never played his first two years. Suddenly Hornacek is forced to play him and he has three straight 20 point games because he is finally getting real playing time.

Hornacek is a moron.

Are you just going to **** whine EVERY time you see something it, be it a positive or negative? Because frankly people are **** sick of hearing it. Archie has played well, and there are 100 ways to look at it. If he would have played as a starter in game 1 of his rookie season would he have played like he did tonight? No. When the proper time is to give guys big minutes is unknown. Many guys are deemed busts.....would they have been with more development time? Maybe, maybe not. Many guys are great out of the gate, but many are not.

Archie was a terrible disappointment at Kentucky, a team that is always a final four team....(not only could he not get them EVEN IN the 68 team tourney, but as a 1 seed in the NIT against Robert Morris, they lost against the overall lowest seed.) and slid down from being a top prospect to barely getting drafted in the first round. Calipari said he can't coach him at one time. He flat out SUCKED coming out of college and has flat out SUCKED almost every time he has played until maybe once last year and recently. All of our young guys have come along nicely. Hornacek is known as a development coach. I'd rather see more of these guys sooner and I don't mind losing for a better draft pick but I don't want our young guys to be thrown to the wolves either.

People are sick of hearing it?

First off, I do not even post that much. And you know what, as long as Hornacek IS GOING TO KEEP ON PLAYING MARKIEFF, then I will continue to say whatever I want about him. Markieff should never play.

And my point is valid. Other people agree. Plus I can say whatever I want. This is a message board about the Phoenix Suns. I am talking about the Suns head coach. If that is not allowed and you think I am breaking some kind of forum rules or whatever, then just ban me. It is not like I am making a thread everyday saying fire Hornacek. Tonight Hornacek did more stupid rotations and I pointed it out. I also pointed out a fact that Hornacek never played Goodwin. Not to mention but this is the worst Suns team in franchise history other than their first year so if you expect posters to post happy posts constantly you are kidding yourself.

And Hornacek is a development coach? What? Idk about that.

I also do not care about what Goodwin did in college. I care about playing him at the NBA level. If you want to see the one game he got at least 30 minutes in his rookie year then look at this:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZrVU-mmhVQ[/youtube]

Goodwin did the same type of stuff in his first year that he is doing now. A player cannot develop just in practice. It is impossible.

A player can develop in practice. And more than that, they can develop in the...wait for it...Development League where he spent a great deal of time.