Trade Deadline Countdown....December 2015

[bwgood77]

Thibs doesn't like running. they had to switch over to Hoiberg to get that style of play going.

but to be honest, i think it's more likely Hornacek just doesn't want this job anymore. he's been yelled at by his players, they've thrown towels at him, they've thrown the towel in on him. he can't catch a break. if you're JH, are you sure you want to deal with this? the inconsistency, having a completely different rotation/roster every six months? i don't blame McD, because i think we are closer to winning than we were after Channing Frye left, but i do think JH could easily walk away from this. i've always thought that JH really wanted the Utah job more. the way he talks about Gordon Hayward makes me think he really wanted that group.

maybe Dan Majerle should get a shot. i know he was pissed we passed him over for Jeff. as long as we're not competitive (and we'll know when we are), it can't hurt hat much. i have no idea how good a coach Majerle would or wouldn't be, but, as with Byron Scott and the Lakers, it doesn't hurt to keep it in the Suns family.

I agree. I think Hornacek probably will be happy to leave but he got a really raw deal. He was such an up-n-coming coach and then the roster churned, players got disgruntled due to offseason moves by FO, etc. I can't excuse him completely but what can a guy really do when his roster is different every six months and he has a rebuilding team and an owner who demands the playoffs? He has probably been in the worst position of any coach in the league the last couple of years. I'm sure he will be happy to spend time at home next year instead of deal with this.

[Damkac]

I do not know why many people think McDonough wins all his trades. I judge trades based on individual success as well as team success.

The Bledsoe trade. Did the Suns really win it? Gonna most likely be three straight years without the playoffs and some people want Bledsoe off the team now (including me) because of his garbage attitude. The Clippers seem just fine without Bledsoe. Jared Dudley has been on a couple of playoff teams since the trade. Dudley is all heart and Bledsoe takes games off.

I know you don't like Bledsoe but seriously how can you not call that trade a win? Dudley is a great guy but him <<< Bledsoe.

Bledsoe and Knight get all that hate but without them this team would be on Philli level

[thamadkant]

I remember me and I think it was Kerrsed or DRK, that used to be really big Bismack Biyombo fans. I remember whenever I used to say Suns should trade for him, people would say "Oh he plays for the Bobcats and he can't get playing time there and their worst team so that means he sucks"...

Fast forward to now and he's DESTROYING THE GLASS. He just had a freaking 20 rebound game. I cant remember the last time a Suns player had 20 rebounds in a game. Has it even ever been done in our franchise history? Maybe Barkley I guess...

He's averaging 9 rebounds a game as a backup to Valaciunas and through a couple of spot starts.

I would probably take Biyombo over Chandler but again it's all about fit and getting the best out of your players. Dwayne Casey (former assistant of Rick Carslie) has done a fantastic job with Biyombo, the former Bobcats bust..

You can add me to the Bismack fan club.

I wanted him on the Suns....i knew with minutes he would be a beast.




Sometimes i just have this gut feeling who would explode as players given time and experience... And Bismack was just one of those players.
I feel something similar with Len, Warren and Goodwin. Booker in a couple of years.
Hence I dont hate McD as much as some here... I tend to agree with his picks.
Although Portis and Looney were 2 players ahead of Booker on my list.

[Qwigglez]

I know you don't like Bledsoe but seriously how can you not call that trade a win? Dudley is a great guy but him <<< Bledsoe.

Bledsoe and Knight get all that hate but without them this team would be on Philli level

I wasn't on the Bledsoe bandwagon initially either. I felt like his game was limited as I didn't think he had a great crossover and his jumper was suspect. Fast-forward to today and he still doesn't have a crossover he just knows how to get by opponents and his jumper has definitely improved. I wanted to trade him though for a draft pick because I didn't see him as a leader, and I still question his leadership ability, but he's definitely been border-line All-star material this season. Lately it looks like he hasn't been trying though and that makes me question his heart and effort.
I know Knight gets a lot of hate on this board, but I like him a lot because you can see his effort every game. Last couple of games where we been down double digits he is the guy that brings this team back into the game. He is improving his game every summer and he truly looks like he wants to be the best there is and I like that kind of attitude for our players.

[bwgood77]

There are always trade proposals that are ridiculous here, but we let them fly for entertainment for better or worse. Just try to make them reasonable if you head to the trade forum.

[thamadkant]

Portis must be showing glimpses during practice.
As one reason Bulls wants to trade some of their front court players like Gasol, Gibson and Noah is to slide Portis in with some minutes.


Itll be interesting if he turns up a star.

[AtheJ415]

I do not know why many people think McDonough wins all his trades. I judge trades based on individual success as well as team success.

The Bledsoe trade. Did the Suns really win it? Gonna most likely be three straight years without the playoffs and some people want Bledsoe off the team now (including me) because of his garbage attitude. The Clippers seem just fine without Bledsoe. Jared Dudley has been on a couple of playoff teams since the trade. Dudley is all heart and Bledsoe takes games off.

I know you don't like Bledsoe but seriously how can you not call that trade a win? Dudley is a great guy but him <<< Bledsoe.

Bledsoe and Knight get all that hate but without them this team would be on Philli level

This. I feel like some here are delusional enough to think that a team of Dudley, Gortat,and other "high IQ vets" like Scola would somehow drag this team to the playoffs. We are still a rebuilding team. That has always been true despite the hopefullness that we'd sneak into the playoffs this year.

We were a team with relatively unvaluable, aging vets 3 years ago set out to fully rebuild the entire roster. There wasn't a single guy who was young enough and good enough to be called anything other than a potential rotation player on a contender.

Then we had some early success and everyone screamed playoffs. Then, because we don't play the pass-first style of the past, everyone hates on the guards constantly. Their salaries are high, they are our best players, and they deserve blame for how this year has gone, but our future is regardless much brighter because we have them. I think some of the more old school fans with traditional PG mindsets, which only 3 starting PGs in the entire league still have today (Rubio, Paul, Rondo), just find our current guards so unlikeable that there is nearly nothing they could do to make them happy. When we win, it's "we can't win a title with these PGs" even though none of those pass first guys have won titles in awhile. When we lose, it's "look, we paid them all this money and we suck so I'm right. Let's get less talented team guys".

I really question how much NBA hoops some watch leaguewide given the exaggerated hot take comments that freuqently occur anytime one of these guys has a bad game. I bet it's mostly the Suns and the Warriors or Spurs. Everyone on basically every team in the league looks like they don't know what they're doing compared to those 2 teams right now, and I'd also point out that while the teams move the ball on both, their PGs are still scorers first. Steph makes his team better mostly because his shooting draws so much attention. He is never shy about shooting the rock, and will frequently take what many here would call bad shots (iso based shots, one on one dribbling to free up space, pullups from insane distances). He's just such a good shooter they go in. Parker has never been a pass first guy, but his team is so good overall that they make the right plays and are tough to defend.

The same happened with Atlanta. The same team of guys that was poor passers and "low IQ" according to their own fan base, brought in a new coach who demanded something different, changed the culture, added just a few guys and suddenly the entire team is "heady, smart players" and we see people here advocating for Jeff Teague, a guy who goes one on one as much as anybody in the league.

[AtheJ415]

Portis must be showing glimpses during practice.
As one reason Bulls wants to trade some of their front court players like Gasol, Gibson and Noah is to slide Portis in with some minutes.


Itll be interesting if he turns up a star.

I like Portis, although I personally don't believe he becomes a star. I think they're looking to deal those guys because they know Rose is done. If they're switching to building around Butler, having a bunch of old guys isn't the way to go, so they're going to dump the vets they have knowing this team can't win a title, and regroup around their young talent.

That said, I hope I'm wrong and that they still want to go for it, because they are one of the most likely Chandler destinations if that's the case imo, since Noah is a large expiring.

[letsgosuns]

Please do not skew what I said. I never said a team with Scola, Gortat, and Dudley would do anything. That team absolutely sucked. I prefaced my analysis of McDonough's trades by saying I judge trades based on individual success as well as team success.

Does Bledsoe have good statistics? Yes. Have the Suns made the playoffs with Bledsoe leading the team? No. Is Bledsoe doing a good job leading the team? No way. Is he a better player than Dudley? Yes. Does he have more heart than Dudley? Not even close. Dudley is a role player that plays about as hard as a player can. He gives it everything he can every game. Bledsoe lacks that quality.

So when I look back on the trade and ask did the Suns win the trade, player versus player they definitely win the trade statistically. But overall success wise, it is a wash. They were going nowhere with Dudley at the time and they are going nowhere with Bledsoe now. I even venture to say they are worse off with Bledsoe because they are locked into a big contract with him and Dudley made dramatically less per year. Sure Bledsoe has these great stats but the team sucks. They really suck. They were 39-43 last year and are 12-19 right now. Bad team. I recognize Bledsoe's qualities but he lacks the passion for the game that Dudley has. Bottom line is this: if I am starting a team from scratch, I do not want Bledsoe anywhere near it. Not as a first, second, or third option. I think he is a loser. Now if I already have my stars like Nash, Amare, and J-Rich on the team, then hell yeah I want Dudley as that role playing glue guy.

[AtheJ415]

Please do not skew what I said. I never said a team with Scola, Gortat, and Dudley would do anything. That team absolutely sucked. I prefaced my analysis of McDonough's trades by saying I judge trades based on individual success as well as team success.

Does Bledsoe have good statistics? Yes. Have the Suns made the playoffs with Bledsoe leading the team? No. Is Bledsoe doing a good job leading the team? No way. Is he a better player than Dudley? Yes. Does he have more heart than Dudley? Not even close. Dudley is a role player that plays about as hard as a player can. He gives it everything he can every game. Bledsoe lacks that quality.

So when I look back on the trade and ask did the Suns win the trade, player versus player they definitely win the trade statistically. But overall success wise, it is a wash. They were going nowhere with Dudley at the time and they are going nowhere with Bledsoe now. I even venture to say they are worse off with Bledsoe because they are locked into a big contract with him and Dudley made dramatically less per year. Sure Bledsoe has these great stats but the team sucks. They really suck. They were 39-43 last year and are 12-19 right now. Bad team. I recognize Bledsoe's qualities but he lacks the passion for the game that Dudley has. Bottom line is this: if I am starting a team from scratch, I do not want Bledsoe anywhere near it. Not as a first, second, or third option. I think he is a loser. Now if I already have my stars like Nash, Amare, and J-Rich on the team, then hell yeah I want Dudley as that role playing glue guy.

Just an fyi, I'm not reading your posts. I only see them when somebody responds. This is the first I've chosen to read in awhile. We just have too many disagreements so I'd rather not waste everyone's time bickering about things we won't agree on and that don't lead to worthwhile discussions.

But I wasn't referring to you with that point about Dudley, Scola, and Gortat. I was referring to a general pattern I see across many posts with people who have real issues with Bledsoe and Knight, and then the guys they advocate getting to replace them. His deal is not an impediment to trading him though, so I disagree on being worse off due to his salary. Look around the league and you'll see people his age who are worse are currently getting paid more. His contract actually will be a value if he keeps it up as soon as this offseason. And Jason Richardson's numbers are worse than Bledsoe's this year despite playing off of Nash. Only thing JRich did better was shoot the 3 and the quality of his dunks. So I guess we'll have to disagree there too.

And if you're prefacing your analysis based on team success, then you must evaluate the trade under what would've likely occurred with this team if it had Dudley instead of Bledsoe. You can't just say, "well this team sucks so we lost the trade or are no better off". This team with Dudley instead of Bledsoe is maybe not quite Philly bad, but definitely LAL territory. So I guess that would make Dudley a loser too. And you also can't preface it with, "if we had 3 stars including arguably the most efficient player of all time at the PG spot already I'd rather have Dudley". That ignores reality. We could not, under any circumstance have gotten 3 stars in these 3 years. And no ****, if you have Nash, Bledsoe, just like Chris Paul in such a scenario, has less value than almost any non-PG.

It's fairly easy to be all doom and gloom during a rebuild, because even if you're doing things right, the results probably won't show for a few years. Our future is tied to a 19 year old Booker, 22 year old Len and Warren, a 24 year old Knight, a 26 year old Bledsoe, a 23 year old Bogdan, and a bunch of picks we have stockpiled in the years to come. It's hard in the NBA to win with guys that young. Name me one team with that age group who is winning games such that you wouldn't call them "losers".

[asudevil]

This is the current problem with the suns: And its the same problem that is right here on this board....nobody is sure what the problem is.....and nobody is sure how to fix it.

a.) Hornasek - bad coaching
b.) Markieff/Goodwin - bad juju
c.) Bledsoe - bad leadership/turnovers
d.) Knight - bad shooting/passing
e.) Bledsoe/Knight - bad backcourt
f.) Chandler - signed up for something he now doesnt want
g.) McD - bad GM, thinks he knows what's up, but doesnt have a clue
h.) Sarver - bad owner

These are the things that are constantly brought up on this board. It's all true. IMO, there are solutions to the problem that dont involve fixing everything we perceive as wrong here.

I think there are 3 things that can remedy the problems that this team faces.

1.) trade markieff/goodwin.
2.) trade knight
3.) new coach

Markieff is the obvious salty spot on this team. With him gone a bunch of you will be satisfied. The problem arises in his value. He has a terribly low value right now. If we trade him for garbage half of you will be up in arms. If we hold off, the other half will be up in arms because he isnt gone yet. go figure

Bledsoe/Knight is working....and in fact a 2pg lineup, or in the case a lineup of a PG and undersized SG lineup, isnt working. We can argue back and forth as to which one should go and for what. go figure

Horny. Again....half this board thinks its the players around the coach. the other half thinks its the coach not being able to control the players. go figure again.

I posted a trade on the previous thread that i think works out for us well.

Suns trade:
Knight/Markieff/Goodwin
Suns get:
Favors/Burks/Brewer

Jazz trade:
Favors/Burks
Jazz get:
Knight/Jones

Rockets trade:
Jones/Brewer
Rockets get:
Markieff/Goodwin

Len/Chandler
Favors/Tele/Leuer
Warren/Tucker
Burks/Booker
Bledsoe/Price

Picks can be thrown around as needed. This gives us a much more balanced/conventional lineup...and allows for our youth to get playing time. After this season, we have 3 needs.....a backup PG/SF/PF. Tele or Leuer could be resigned...so we are talking about replacing tucker and price. that's it.

And in all honestly, with the youth we have, Horny just isnt the right guy. He's not mean enough to control what we have. He's the Ainge we had with Cassell/Horry right now....a good evaluater of talent, but cannot assertive enough. We need a Thibs. I jerk who can put people in their place.

[AtheJ415]

This is the current problem with the suns: And its the same problem that is right here on this board....nobody is sure what the problem is.....and nobody is sure how to fix it.

a.) Hornasek - bad coaching
b.) Markieff/Goodwin - bad juju
c.) Bledsoe - bad leadership/turnovers
d.) Knight - bad shooting/passing
e.) Bledsoe/Knight - bad backcourt
f.) Chandler - signed up for something he now doesnt want
g.) McD - bad GM, thinks he knows what's up, but doesnt have a clue
h.) Sarver - bad owner

These are the things that are constantly brought up on this board. It's all true. IMO, there are solutions to the problem that dont involve fixing everything we perceive as wrong here.

I think there are 3 things that can remedy the problems that this team faces.

1.) trade markieff/goodwin.
2.) trade knight
3.) new coach

Markieff is the obvious salty spot on this team. With him gone a bunch of you will be satisfied. The problem arises in his value. He has a terribly low value right now. If we trade him for garbage half of you will be up in arms. If we hold off, the other half will be up in arms because he isnt gone yet. go figure

Bledsoe/Knight is working....and in fact a 2pg lineup, or in the case a lineup of a PG and undersized SG lineup, isnt working. We can argue back and forth as to which one should go and for what. go figure

Horny. Again....half this board thinks its the players around the coach. the other half thinks its the coach not being able to control the players. go figure again.

I posted a trade on the previous thread that i think works out for us well.

Suns trade:
Knight/Markieff/Goodwin
Suns get:
Favors/Burks/Brewer

Jazz trade:
Favors/Burks
Jazz get:
Knight/Jones

Rockets trade:
Jones/Brewer
Rockets get:
Markieff/Goodwin

Len/Chandler
Favors/Tele/Leuer
Warren/Tucker
Burks/Booker
Bledsoe/Price

Picks can be thrown around as needed. This gives us a much more balanced/conventional lineup...and allows for our youth to get playing time. After this season, we have 3 needs.....a backup PG/SF/PF. Tele or Leuer could be resigned...so we are talking about replacing tucker and price. that's it.

And in all honestly, with the youth we have, Horny just isnt the right guy. He's not mean enough to control what we have. He's the Ainge we had with Cassell/Horry right now....a good evaluater of talent, but cannot assertive enough. We need a Thibs. I jerk who can put people in their place.

I'll say I disagree with a lot of this, particularly that we have a bad GM, when our drafts have been the thing we've done overwhelmingly right.

But why in the world would Utah ever trade Favors right now? I'm not sure they'd trade him for Cousins. I like both Knight and Jones, but I think Utah gets absolutely buried in that trade.

[AtheJ415]

So who all is cheering for tank/draft pick status at this point? I'm on that bandwagon. Go Pelicans.

[Saberestar]

Favors?
No way they trade Favors, I mean, I would love that trade but Utah is a team that historically makes few trades and they are consistent with their core players. They are not a great team yet but at least they have an identity and a good future.

[Saberestar]

I really want to see some changes because I lost a lot of hope for the next few games...the next one against Philadelphia can be horrible but even if we win that one the worst is coming.....Cavs, Oklahoma and Spurs. OMG.

[AtheJ415]

I really want to see some changes because I lost a lot of hope for the next few games...the next one against Philadelphia can be horrible but even if we win that one the worst is coming.....Cavs, Oklahoma and Spurs. OMG.

Yeah. I just don't see us making the playoffs. Because of that, I kind of hope we lose. Even to Philly.

[batsmasher]

Losing to Philly would be incredible. I want it just so I can enjoy this board.

Ish the dish swish Smith goes for a triple double on debut. Oh please happen.

[AtheJ415]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bledser01&y1=2016&p2=paulch01&y2=2016&p3=knighbr03&y3=2016&p4=derozde01&y4=2014&p5=bealbr01&y5=2016&p6=bryanko01&y6=2005

Found this interesting. For all those claiming our guys are inefficient scorers and our guards have no hope of being stars in the future, I ran individual season comparisons for certain players based on age.

I took Knight, who in reality is a 2 guard at age 24, and compared him to Kobe at 26, Bradley Beal today (at 22, since obviously he has no numbers at 24), and Demar Derozan at 24. Look at his effective field goal % in particular, since that adjusts for 3 point shots, as well as the win share /48 (total winshares are meaningless here because you're comparing partial seasons to full, so /48 is the proper metric).

I also did Bledsoe vs. Chris Paul this year. If you edit you can see him compared to Goran now or at 26. I also edited and saw him very favorable to kyle lowry at the same ag.

Point being that our gaurds' offense is not the problem. It's the defense. And I think it's way too soon to write them off as lost causes or losers.

[AtheJ415]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bledser01&y1=2016&y2=2013&p2=rondora01&p3=westbru01&y3=2015&p4=dragigo01&y4=2013&p5=teaguje01&y5=2015&p6=lowryky01&y6=2013

Let's look at this one with everyone at 26, comparing Bledsoe, Rondo, Westbrook, Goran, Jeff Teague, and Lowry.

Again, look at the effective FG%, and WS/48.

[AtheJ415]

Here's a different one for Knight:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2016&p1=wiggian01&p2=butleji01&y2=2014&p3=knighbr03&y3=2016&p4=derozde01&y4=2014&p5=bealbr01&y5=2016&p6=bryanko01&y6=2005