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Suns at Grizz

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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#121 » by grumpysaddle » Mon Mar 7, 2016 4:42 am

oddity wrote:
batsmasher wrote:
DarkHawk wrote:What is different that is allowing Len to play so much better?
I'm starting to not regret having him over Noel anymore. A double double in the second quarter?

Ball touches + confidence.

His ball touches are finally giving him confidence in the post and his play is getting him more of the ball.


Not to mention his jumpshot is improving to the extent where he can take those face up-js without it being a negative. Defenders have to step up on him and that gives him the ability to fake/drive to the rim. I don't think Len's scoring w/ his back to the basket will ever be anything above average, but his faceup game is looking really promising!


Not to mention those 6 assists... Booker and Len look to be two of the Suns' best facilitators. A great skill for a SG and C.
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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#122 » by bwgood77 » Mon Mar 7, 2016 5:11 am

AtheJ415 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
saintEscaton wrote:Whiteside doesn't want to be the face of a losing franchise, he's ain't coming here even if we wanted him


What if we told him he doesn't have to be the face? Booker can be the face, and he can be in the background of the losing franchise?


I think he'll want to stay in Miami, but they won't be able to keep him without getting rid of guys they would rather have. We'll see. I don't particularly care if we get him. I do think he's the best available C and the only one that fits our age group (27, but not many miles at that age). But as far as our Miami picks go, I really hope he leaves to go somewhere. I feel like he's the type to go to a flashy city like LA or NY though. Maybe Houston (not flashy, but 4th biggest in the US and may be moving on from Dwightmare).

I have no doubt they would've traded him if they had his bird rights. He had no value without them.


I think, based on what I know, targeting him would make the most sense, except for the fact that we have untradable Chandler and I imagine courting Whiteside would leave us with another disgruntled untradable player, which I don't want.

I also know Miami played better without him earlier. Of course now that Bosh is out, he has put up some absolutely monster stats, and not just with blocks, but rebounding and occasionally a lot of points. It really seems for now, we are pretty set in the middle. I know Chandler doesn't fit our core, but we are likely stuck with him, and perhaps his presence has played a large part in Len's breakout, and perhaps Booker's too, to some extent, just to have that vet leader in the locker room, not allowing these guys to get down. I don't know, but I think the most important part of our off season is trying to nail our picks and grow organically. I'm not sure what is going to happen with Knight. I don't think Booker should be moved from starting even to start next year, so I don't know how Knight would feel coming off the bench or if that would create any problems, and I don't think he has much trade value. I do think that we SHOULD have a pretty good three guard rotation and if we play them all 32 minutes, maybe more if they are hot or Booker at the 3, AND if they all buy in on team ball movement, it could work.

I thought our glaring need was PF, and long term it is, but I'll have to see how Len plays at 4 for the rest of the season against better teams or teams that are not banged up.
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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#123 » by Jarlaxle0204 » Mon Mar 7, 2016 5:17 am

Love watching the offense go through Booker and Len. Gotta give Watson credit for making the team feature them more which is something Hornacek had ample opportunity to do and didn't. I really wish Warren wasn't hurt as I feel he'd be getting the opportunity he deserves as well. At this point in time I wouldn't mind signing Watson to a short 2 year deal and seeing what he could do with a full year and a healthy team.
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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#124 » by batsmasher » Mon Mar 7, 2016 5:30 am

oddity wrote:Not to mention his jumpshot is improving to the extent where he can take those face up-js without it being a negative. Defenders have to step up on him and that gives him the ability to fake/drive to the rim. I don't think Len's scoring w/ his back to the basket will ever be anything above average, but his faceup game is looking really promising!

Even that I think can be attributed to confidence. At least once a broadcast EJ talks about how Alex hesitated on his 15 footers. No more! His stroke has always looked the goods. I truly think he's just jumped a massive mental hurdle.
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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#125 » by Blackification » Mon Mar 7, 2016 5:36 am

Mulhollanddrive wrote:I saw him today as the main ball handler at the top of our half court sets. It would be good to help his all round game to have him get his passing game going, maybe he can become a 4-5 Assist type player.

All Star Potential:
- Booker (SG) 20 Points, 4 Assists, 3 Rebounds
- Len (C) 16 Points, 12 Rebounds, 2 Blocks
- Warren (SF) 20 Points, 5 Rebounds

If we set up the team next year as the 1,2,3 with the same focus Watson this year, they could push and come those numbers even as rookies.

Hard to see them having those numbers exactly but even around there would be awesome. Keep in mind we will get another 20 5 5 guy in bledsoe and a top 4 pick hopefully at the pf spot.


I dont include knight because i hope he wont be on the team
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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#126 » by Blackification » Mon Mar 7, 2016 5:40 am

Having warren next to booker would free up so much space for him. No one is worried about pj or any of our starters other than booker when it comes to offense. If booker keeps up his level of play and you throw in a healthy bledsoe with warren at the sf you have mismatches all day on offense. Our glaring hole is at PF where other than mirza who is perfect coming off the bench we dont have consistent production
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Suns at Grizz 

Post#127 » by nevetsov » Mon Mar 7, 2016 5:41 am

I really like the Brandon Roy comparison for Book. Playmaking, well rounded shooting guard.

And I love how he is showing how he and Len can run our half court sets. That's something we always struggled with having a Bled/Knight trying to facilitate.

The more Devin plays like this, the more I like his fit alongside Bled. Complete complements:

Bledsoe:
- Can rebound and defend
- Can push the ball in the open court
- Has improved 3pt shooting
- Needs to defer/share half court playmaking

Booker:
- Can shoot the ball
- Can play on or off ball in the half court
- Improving defender

Who knows, if Bogdan can develop into a multifaceted SF and we strike gold in the draft at PF, we could be looking at a very impressive young team.

Bledsoe, Price (has been playing like poor man's Bledsoe)
Booker, Goodwin (playmaking SGs)
Bogdan, Warren (like him in a Ceballos role off the bench)
DRAFT, Teletovic
Len, Chandler

And that's not even including future picks (I'd like to see us draft and stash/ develop PG and C replacements for Price and Chandler) or stuff we can get in trades (Knight etc.)
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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#128 » by AtheJ415 » Mon Mar 7, 2016 6:29 am

SC923 wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
batsmasher wrote:If only Tyson was 10 years younger. I'd love to see what this frontcourt could actually do.



If Phoenix intends to use Len at the 4 going forward, we should either draft a C to replace Tyson and trade him this offseason, or include him in a sign and trade for Whiteside, who is 27 and better, and who Miami doesn't seem to want to keep and likely can't due to their cap situation.


Jakob Poeltl


Poeltl is a Len clone. I'm not sure if their skill sets are an ideal match. I do like him though.
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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#129 » by RunDogGun » Mon Mar 7, 2016 6:38 am

Jarlaxle0204 wrote:Love watching the offense go through Booker and Len. Gotta give Watson credit for making the team feature them more which is something Hornacek had ample opportunity to do and didn't. I really wish Warren wasn't hurt as I feel he'd be getting the opportunity he deserves as well. At this point in time I wouldn't mind signing Watson to a short 2 year deal and seeing what he could do with a full year and a healthy team.

It's tough to claim that Jeff didn't give Len an opportunity, when he started 44 of his 69 games last year. Booker had received minutes under Jeff, a lot more than other rookies have. Also I think injuries had more to do with who Watson has to play.

Oh well, I'm glad they are showing some consistency.
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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#130 » by Damkac » Mon Mar 7, 2016 8:17 am

Len started last year because Plumlee played terrible. Everyone was mad that Hornacek continue to start Miles when Len was playing much better than him.

I'm happy with Booker and Len playing so well but I have no illusions, next bad game by Len and everyone here will call him bust again.
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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#131 » by RunDogGun » Mon Mar 7, 2016 8:30 am

Damkac wrote:Len started last year because Plumlee played terrible. Everyone was mad that Hornacek continue to start Miles when Len was playing much better than him.

I'm happy with Booker and Len playing so well but I have no illusions, next bad game by Len and everyone here will call him bust again.

I don't think he is a bust by any means, he is just inconsistent, as have been the case for almost all of our guys this season. Len was just as inconsistent when Miles was starting, not to mention he was often in foul trouble. Even Len himself said that the game was too fast for him his rookie season, so I wouldn't blame Jeff for starting Plumlee. I also felt that many hoped Bledsoe and Miles could reconnect and enjoy the success they had early the season before. It didn't turn out that way, and Len took over. But we can't say Jeff didn't give Len an opportunity to shine, when he started over half of the games he played, and often enjoyed starting this season under Jeff as well. As for touches, it just didn't seem like Len was comfortable with the ball and didn't shoot all to well. Sometimes, he would have monster games, but then appeared clueless the next night. With that type of up and down, it would be hard to feature anyone.

Watson isn't playing Leuer, and Morris just got traded. Our bench is quite depleted, so I'm not sure if Watson is giving the opportunity, or there just aren't many options. Either way, I'm just happy Len is having some success, and if he can be consistent, there is no reason he shouldn't be a starter, now and in the future. Same with Booker, who also got a bunch of burn under Jeff. Opportunity is on the rise this season, and guys should grab whatever they can.
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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#132 » by Christine-In-AZ » Mon Mar 7, 2016 8:32 am

Love watching Booker further confirm that he's going to be great. Love seeing Len stringing together great games. Love seeing the team play some darn good ball. Hate actually winning these games. Up until there was about 4 minutes to go in this one I was good with the game, from then on I wanted the Griz to get hot and balls to bounce their way...have them steal it in the end. A perfect game for me.

Looking at the schedule and putting it up against how the Suns are playing lately, they might win 8 or even 10 more games. Minnesota is "charging" downward fast.

Picking 5th or 6th in this draft would/will be such a bummer after having to endure such an awful season overall.

Just being honest- Love the all the shiny individual and improved overall play, but losses...nice close losses have far more chance to help the build than Ws.


season #47 and still waiting
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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#133 » by Frank Lee » Mon Mar 7, 2016 9:57 am

'0 and 47.... let us proceed'


Memphis doesn't match up well with us. Slow plodding post play, no Gasol. Bigs led by ZBo, Birdman, BWright, Ryan Hollins... no real 'small ball' capability. Perfect storm for Len and Chandler... 65 pts + 54 rebounds combined in the last two jousts :o
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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#134 » by Qwigglez » Mon Mar 7, 2016 12:50 pm

Whoever made the Booker to Roy comparison is spot on. I haven't seen a SG who has the three point game and mid-range game in a while. Booker has such poise playing with the ball, he's silky smooth like Roy was. Next season should be fun, and I can't wait to be in close games and see what Booker can do in the clutch.
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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#135 » by MathiasPW » Mon Mar 7, 2016 1:15 pm

AtheJ415 wrote:
blacksun wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:

If Phoenix intends to use Len at the 4 going forward, we should either draft a C to replace Tyson and trade him this offseason, or include him in a sign and trade for Whiteside, who is 27 and better, and who Miami doesn't seem to want to keep and likely can't due to their cap situation.


Whiteside is the exact opposite of Chandler mentally. No thanks to another headcase.



Sorry, but if you think Chandler is better for this team, you're out of your mind. I'm not sure I want Whiteside either, but if you have to choose between him and Whiteside, it isn't even close. One used to be a great defensive player and a middling offensive player. One is that today. Chandler's mentality has been here all year, and all he's done is rave about how mature and eager to learn everybody is, while watching us have the most disappointing team in franchise history which he was a huge part of. His underperformance is as big a reason as any for our season. Give me the great player who doesn't work hard over the awful player who busts his ass. If anything, it just shows the potential the guy who doesn't practice as hard has.


It's very hard to gauge the influence of bad characters on a team. It's not measurable or quantifiable, but it has a big impact for sure. The difference between the Suns pre-and-after Deadline is a small sample, but a highlight. I remember the Pistons rejoicing when Iverson left the team, for example - although that was their last playoff appearance.
Point is, the equation is not just talent over talent, like you seemed to mean when comparing Whiteside over Chandler.
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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#136 » by MathiasPW » Mon Mar 7, 2016 1:31 pm

batsmasher wrote:
DarkHawk wrote:What is different that is allowing Len to play so much better?
I'm starting to not regret having him over Noel anymore. A double double in the second quarter?

Ball touches + confidence.

His ball touches are finally giving him confidence in the post and his play is getting him more of the ball.


It's not just that. It's the circumstances in which he is playing. His post-game interview yesterday had a small piece where he said he and Chandler are allowing each other to exploit the smaller/weaker defender in the post. You can notice that by seeing Chandlers' numbers also rising. Len has been getting more minutes, though, and has a better jumper, so the impact is clearer.
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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#137 » by bigfoot » Mon Mar 7, 2016 2:21 pm

RunDogGun wrote:
Jarlaxle0204 wrote:Love watching the offense go through Booker and Len. Gotta give Watson credit for making the team feature them more which is something Hornacek had ample opportunity to do and didn't. I really wish Warren wasn't hurt as I feel he'd be getting the opportunity he deserves as well. At this point in time I wouldn't mind signing Watson to a short 2 year deal and seeing what he could do with a full year and a healthy team.

It's tough to claim that Jeff didn't give Len an opportunity, when he started 44 of his 69 games last year. Booker had received minutes under Jeff, a lot more than other rookies have. Also I think injuries had more to do with who Watson has to play.

Oh well, I'm glad they are showing some consistency.


I think big difference between Len playing for Horny versus Watson is Len is now the #1 option. Never was an option under Horny and we all complained about his lack of touches. When Watson started he made Kief the #1 option ... which really helped get that a-hole sent off to Washington. That opened the door for Len. Horny was a guard-centric coach and saw the points and assists coming from Bledsoe and Knight. NIce to see a guard-big man split on both points and assists under Watson with his Len and Booker 1-2 combo.
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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#138 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Mon Mar 7, 2016 2:53 pm

bigfoot wrote:
RunDogGun wrote:
Jarlaxle0204 wrote:Love watching the offense go through Booker and Len. Gotta give Watson credit for making the team feature them more which is something Hornacek had ample opportunity to do and didn't. I really wish Warren wasn't hurt as I feel he'd be getting the opportunity he deserves as well. At this point in time I wouldn't mind signing Watson to a short 2 year deal and seeing what he could do with a full year and a healthy team.

It's tough to claim that Jeff didn't give Len an opportunity, when he started 44 of his 69 games last year. Booker had received minutes under Jeff, a lot more than other rookies have. Also I think injuries had more to do with who Watson has to play.

Oh well, I'm glad they are showing some consistency.


I think big difference between Len playing for Horny versus Watson is Len is now the #1 option. Never was an option under Horny and we all complained about his lack of touches. When Watson started he made Kief the #1 option ... which really helped get that a-hole sent off to Washington. That opened the door for Len. Horny was a guard-centric coach and saw the points and assists coming from Bledsoe and Knight. NIce to see a guard-big man split on both points and assists under Watson with his Len and Booker 1-2 combo.


Horny wanted the guards to make all the decisions on the court. Surprise! They ended up calling #1 about 2/3 of the time. It was apparent that they were reluctant to give Len the ball - no matter who his defender, no matter how good his position. It was maddening. For the record, Dragic looked him off even more predictably than Bled and Knight.
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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#139 » by NavLDO » Mon Mar 7, 2016 2:53 pm

nevetsov wrote:I really like the Brandon Roy comparison for Book. Playmaking, well rounded shooting guard.

And I love how he is showing how he and Len can run our half court sets. That's something we always struggled with having a Bled/Knight trying to facilitate.

The more Devin plays like this, the more I like his fit alongside Bled. Complete complements:

Bledsoe:
- Can rebound and defend
- Can push the ball in the open court
- Has improved 3pt shooting
- Needs to defer/share half court playmaking

Booker:
- Can shoot the ball
- Can play on or off ball in the half court
- Improving defender

Who knows, if Bogdan can develop into a multifaceted SF and we strike gold in the draft at PF, we could be looking at a very impressive young team.

Bledsoe, Price (has been playing like poor man's Bledsoe)
Booker, Goodwin (playmaking SGs)
Bogdan, Warren (like him in a Ceballos role off the bench)
DRAFT, Teletovic
Len, Chandler

And that's not even including future picks (I'd like to see us draft and stash/ develop PG and C replacements for Price and Chandler) or stuff we can get in trades (Knight etc.)


I think you need to include Knight in your Depth Chart; I don't see him going anywhere, anytime soon. McD doesn't like selling low on players, and right now, thanks to injuries and mediocre play when Bledsoe was out, Knight isn't showing that he's worth his $14M per. I think that Knight ultimately is worth his contract; just saying that due to unfortunate circumstances, his value is lower than what it was in the first 20 games of the season.

Additionally, may as well put Len at the 4 as well. Regardless of who we draft, I think Len and Telly will have to share PF duties (if we can keep Telly, and if not, then Leuer), because I doubt we hand the reins over to a rookie at the PF position, EVEN IF we do draft Simmons. He'll need some time to adjust to the NBA.

Also, before Warren got hurt, he was seeing some time at the 4 as well. So maybe until we 'find' our PF of the future, maybe Watson (or whoever is hired if Watson isn't retained) will decide to play the PF position by committee (Len, Leuer, Telly, Warren, "Rookie"). Probably not a great plan, but possibly necessary if we don't bring in starter-level PF Vet in the Off-season.

I do like your overall point, however, and hope we see a similar Depth Chart to start off the season, with the modifications I noted above. Len, Booker, and Warren should be seeing no less than 25 MPG from here on out, when healthy. So I think our starting Lineup for next season should look as such, as I mentioned a few days ago, with our Guards played as Combo. And actually, like bwgood's suggestion of 30-32 MPG per Guard (rotating Bledsoe, Knight, Booker):

PG - Bledsoe/Knight with occasional Price minutes
SG - Booker/Goodwin
SF - Warren/Bogdanovic
PF - Len/(Warren, Telly, Leuer)
C - Chandler/Len

If we put that group on the floor--Bledsoe/Booker/Warren/Len/Chandler--to start? Well, to me, that looks like a Playoff squad, especially if we see the Booker and Len we've seen as of late, as more of the norm, rather than as the aberration.

And one last thing. Does anyone notice that this Game thread has had a MUCH higher level of enthusiasm than the games when we get slaughtered? Especially the last several pages? We all recognize the 'tank', yet when we lose, it's all glum and our whole team stinks, etc. But when we win, it's a much more enjoyable thread, and fans recognize that we have some nice young pieces going forward.
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Re: Suns at Grizz 

Post#140 » by Jarlaxle0204 » Mon Mar 7, 2016 2:58 pm

RunDogGun wrote:
Jarlaxle0204 wrote:Love watching the offense go through Booker and Len. Gotta give Watson credit for making the team feature them more which is something Hornacek had ample opportunity to do and didn't. I really wish Warren wasn't hurt as I feel he'd be getting the opportunity he deserves as well. At this point in time I wouldn't mind signing Watson to a short 2 year deal and seeing what he could do with a full year and a healthy team.

It's tough to claim that Jeff didn't give Len an opportunity, when he started 44 of his 69 games last year. Booker had received minutes under Jeff, a lot more than other rookies have. Also I think injuries had more to do with who Watson has to play.

Oh well, I'm glad they are showing some consistency.

I'm not saying Hornacek didn't give Len an opportunity or time. I'm saying that he should have put the offense through him more often especially in a half court set (which we were pretty terrible at the past couple of years). I understand he's still a work in progress and that big's take longer to develop but our two guards (Bledsoe and Knight) would constantly call for the screen which Len would accommodate but then they would roll right to the hoop or curl and take the shot. They rarely gave Len the ball in the post and let him go to work or passes off the pick. I believe Watson said something a couple of weeks ago about how they need to get Len more touches and more involved as a focal point. Since then, he has been playing the best basketball of his short career so far.

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