2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued

[Barkley6]

Yeah, not trading Warren for Dinwiddie. That's terrible value for him. Warren is a 20 and 5 guy. Dinwiddie is serviceable, but TJ has more value than that. TJ is also younger.

I think people forget that TJ is only 24. He's improved every year he's been in the league (upped his scoring by an average of 4.5ppg each season). If he could add a semi-reliable 3pt shot, he could easily score 24ppg, especially with defenses focusing on Booker and Ayton.

Unless it's part of a package for a star player or a significant upgrade at the PG spot, I think TJ gets another season in Phoenix.

For reference, at the same age:

Joe Johnson - 17/5/3 on 46/48/75 shooting splits.
TJ Warren - 19/5/1 on 50/22/76 shooting splits.

Not DRAMATICALLY different. Obviously the 3pt percentage stands out, but TJ has never had a Nash like PG to set him up (The season previous, without Nash, JJ shot 30% from 3 EDIT: The following season, without Nash, JJ's 3pt% went back down to 36%).

I just don't think you give up on TJ yet.

Well, I am not sure how many minutes Warren will get as there is a glut of forwards so trying to create an opportunity to improve the guard rotation. Also, would open 10m of cap space next summer. If that is a goal for McD.

I see the skill set TJ has on the offensive end. Good mid-range game. Three point shooting still needs to get better as does defense. He might be best used as a super sixth man to get points. If his three ball percentage improved - even the corner, would help his game.

Trading away Warren, a proven player who is an efficient scorer, and then assuming a non-shooting Jackson is going to fill his role is asinine. These Jackson bandwagon fans are crazy to even think he will be a starter. People love his highlight blocks but somebody out to create a follies tape of Jackson with all his bricks and defensive lapses. Right now Bender and Jackson look like third string players.

Agree that people penciling Jackson ahead of Warren at this point is a little premature. I think having those two in camp competing for the starting job is the best possible scenario for both players and the team. Neither one should just be handed a starting job. At this point the only locked on starters should be Booker for obvious reasons, and Ayton because there really isn't anyone to compete with him. The rest is up for grabs.

We are a better team with Warren than without him. I'm not opposed to dealing him for the right player, but I don't want to trade him just for the sake of it.

Literally, last season Warren had almost IDENTICAL numbers to KLAY THOMPSON, and did it without a 3pt shot, and without KD and Curry drawing the oppositions best perimeter defenders.

Thompson: 34mpg 20/3.8/2.5 on 48/44/84 shooting
Warren: 33mpg 19.6/5.1/1.3 on 50/22/76 shooting

Why does everyone think TJ is such a bad player? I'm BAFFLED.

EDIT: I had to add more, HE DID ALL THIS WITHOUT A PG TO SET HIM UP AND IN A TERRIBLE OFFENSE. Kokoskov's system should help a player like Warren thrive.

[oddity]

Just saying, I'm not all for trading TJ right now. I'm also not saying right now, at this moment, JJ is a better player. Obviously dude has a lot of work to do. But based off of what he's shown so far, and what he is capable of, he clearly is a much more versatile and well rounded prospect. He has far better potential than Warren as an offensive player provided he improves his shot to even Warren levels. On D he is already a league above TJ. And can we not get hysterical over summer league. Dennis Smith is likewise struggling and I doubt any of us are radically changing our perception of him.

[bigfoot]

Well, I am not sure how many minutes Warren will get as there is a glut of forwards so trying to create an opportunity to improve the guard rotation. Also, would open 10m of cap space next summer. If that is a goal for McD.

I see the skill set TJ has on the offensive end. Good mid-range game. Three point shooting still needs to get better as does defense. He might be best used as a super sixth man to get points. If his three ball percentage improved - even the corner, would help his game.

Trading away Warren, a proven player who is an efficient scorer, and then assuming a non-shooting Jackson is going to fill his role is asinine. These Jackson bandwagon fans are crazy to even think he will be a starter. People love his highlight blocks but somebody out to create a follies tape of Jackson with all his bricks and defensive lapses. Right now Bender and Jackson look like third string players.

What exactly does Warren do that Jackson doesn't? Jackson is a better athlete, a better ball handler, a better defender, better passer, better BBIQ, more vocal leader, younger, and the list goes on. They both struggle shooting its not like TJ has an advantage over JJ here. JJ clearly has the potential to everything TJ does and more. And if you wanna talk about fans watching JJ's blocks and not his defensive follies; unlike TJ, at least JJ HAS BLOCKS TO WATCH!!!

True Shooting - TJ .542 JJ .480
Free Throw - TJ .757 JJ .634

Right there is enough to show JJ's offensive game is atrocious. A .480 true shooting and its not improving at all during summer league against lesser opponents. Summer league shooting stats

.250 on 7-28 shooting
.111 on 1-9 three pointers
.636 on 7-11 free throws

People ragging on Bender rightfully but Jackson deserve even more because he's older than Bender. If fans think we should trade Warren to make room for Jackson that's a big mistake. Anybody who has Jackson in their starting lineup is a fool too. He was benched for a reason last season. He was also gifted minutes last year when Warren and Booker were sat down for the Ayton tank.

[bigfoot]

Just saying, I'm not all for trading TJ right now. I'm also not saying right now, at this moment, JJ is a better player. Obviously dude has a lot of work to do. But based off of what he's shown so far, and what he is capable of, he clearly is a much more versatile and well rounded prospect. He has far better potential than Warren as an offensive player provided he improves his shot to even Warren levels. On D he is already a league above TJ. And can we not get hysterical over summer league. Dennis Smith is likewise struggling and I doubt any of us are radically changing our perception of him.

He is not a league above TJ on defense. People want to see it but it just isn't so. Again flashy chase down blocks means his guy got by him. You don't see the layups he gives away in those highlight reels or him sagging too much and giving away three point shots. His advanced stats show he was second worse on the team in box +/- per 100 possession only slightly better than Tyler Ulis. Gifting JJ, Chriss, and Bender minutes was a mistake. Sure it got us Ayton but they are not better than Warren, Dudley, or Chandler.

[TeamTragic]

Warren won't be traded unless we get a nice package. He is a valuable player on a great contract.

[oddity]

Just saying, I'm not all for trading TJ right now. I'm also not saying right now, at this moment, JJ is a better player. Obviously dude has a lot of work to do. But based off of what he's shown so far, and what he is capable of, he clearly is a much more versatile and well rounded prospect. He has far better potential than Warren as an offensive player provided he improves his shot to even Warren levels. On D he is already a league above TJ. And can we not get hysterical over summer league. Dennis Smith is likewise struggling and I doubt any of us are radically changing our perception of him.

He is not a league above TJ on defense. People want to see it but it just isn't so. Again flashy chase down blocks means his guy got by him. You don't see the layups he gives away in those highlight reels or him sagging too much and giving away three point shots. His advanced stats show he was second worse on the team in box +/- per 100 possession only slightly better than Tyler Ulis. Gifting JJ, Chriss, and Bender minutes was a mistake. Sure it got us Ayton but they are not better than Warren, Dudley, or Chandler.

Or it could mean a fastbreak.............
He's also defending point guards. When was the last time you saw TJ guard Dennis Smith?
As for +/-, it's difficult to judge bc the performance of the team reflects on each individual's stats. For instance, Curry put up really solid defensive advanced stats for the past few years, but that's bc of the team's defensive effort, not the individual's. I remember PJ Tucker not looking good in defensive stats when he was playing for us bc he would always guard the other team's best player. JJ is doing the same thing now. I'm not getting this from highlight reels, I watched him D guys up all of last season and he was almost always the best defender on the floor. Obviously no one is perfect and he made some rookie mistakes from time to time but the lateral movement, the motor, the aggression, the length is all there.

[kennydorglas]

5M/yr for Bertans seems like a highway robbery.
Weird market values so far in the FA.

[JMac1]

Trading away Warren, a proven player who is an efficient scorer, and then assuming a non-shooting Jackson is going to fill his role is asinine. These Jackson bandwagon fans are crazy to even think he will be a starter. People love his highlight blocks but somebody out to create a follies tape of Jackson with all his bricks and defensive lapses. Right now Bender and Jackson look like third string players.

What exactly does Warren do that Jackson doesn't? Jackson is a better athlete, a better ball handler, a better defender, better passer, better BBIQ, more vocal leader, younger, and the list goes on. They both struggle shooting its not like TJ has an advantage over JJ here. JJ clearly has the potential to everything TJ does and more. And if you wanna talk about fans watching JJ's blocks and not his defensive follies; unlike TJ, at least JJ HAS BLOCKS TO WATCH!!!

True Shooting - TJ .542 JJ .480
Free Throw - TJ .757 JJ .634

Right there is enough to show JJ's offensive game is atrocious. A .480 true shooting and its not improving at all during summer league against lesser opponents. Summer league shooting stats

.250 on 7-28 shooting
.111 on 1-9 three pointers
.636 on 7-11 free throws

People ragging on Bender rightfully but Jackson deserve even more because he's older than Bender. If fans think we should trade Warren to make room for Jackson that's a big mistake. Anybody who has Jackson in their starting lineup is a fool too. He was benched for a reason last season. He was also gifted minutes last year when Warren and Booker were sat down for the Ayton tank.

Because he is older? No. Bender has been in the NBA longer than JJ. Better coaching, training, diet information, peer study, experience, all the time in the world to work on his game. This is JJ's first off-season. It's not just about age, its the experience you have received while growing, Bender has more professional experience and knowledge. The critique isn't about their physical maturity.

TJ can't shoot or play defense.... If anyone should start, it will be Bridges, however, JJ has had two poor summer league games shooting the ball, sans free throws, which looks good so far. We will see what he looks like as far as his shooting goes in the fall and preseason, then we can make that judgement. Bender is a much bigger issue than JJ.

[JMac1]

TJ Warren will have a three point shot before Josh Jackson ever manages to hit .750 from the free throw line.

How long has Warren been in the league

[LukasBMW]

If TJ comes back with a corner 3, he will average 20+ a game.

If TJ comes back with full 3 point range, he and Booker will both be allstars.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE that we have them both locked up on long term deals.

TJ is really going to flourish in this new offense with all the screens and cuts. Not to mention that we have a center who can finally pass out of the post.

[bwgood77]

What exactly does Warren do that Jackson doesn't? Jackson is a better athlete, a better ball handler, a better defender, better passer, better BBIQ, more vocal leader, younger, and the list goes on. They both struggle shooting its not like TJ has an advantage over JJ here. JJ clearly has the potential to everything TJ does and more. And if you wanna talk about fans watching JJ's blocks and not his defensive follies; unlike TJ, at least JJ HAS BLOCKS TO WATCH!!!

True Shooting - TJ .542 JJ .480
Free Throw - TJ .757 JJ .634

Right there is enough to show JJ's offensive game is atrocious. A .480 true shooting and its not improving at all during summer league against lesser opponents. Summer league shooting stats

.250 on 7-28 shooting
.111 on 1-9 three pointers
.636 on 7-11 free throws

People ragging on Bender rightfully but Jackson deserve even more because he's older than Bender. If fans think we should trade Warren to make room for Jackson that's a big mistake. Anybody who has Jackson in their starting lineup is a fool too. He was benched for a reason last season. He was also gifted minutes last year when Warren and Booker were sat down for the Ayton tank.

Because he is older? No. Bender has been in the NBA longer than JJ. Better coaching, training, diet information, peer study, experience, all the time in the world to work on his game. This is JJ's first off-season. It's not just about age, its the experience you have received while growing, Bender has more professional experience and knowledge. The critique isn't about their physical maturity.

In my opinion, Bill Self is a better coach than Earl Watson. Also, Bender was injured half of his first season...and didn't play much prior to injury. I don't know about Bender's experience. He was on a Maccabi team that didn't play him because their team was desperate to win with vets to not get relegated, then he went to the NBA under Watson who wanted to play him as a 3, and then he got injured right when they were going with young guys and was out half the season.

His first full year under a decent coach was last year and he shot fairly well and defended pretty well.....higher ranked than JJ in DRPM, DBPM, DRAPM, etc...

Obviously JJ has FAR more upside but he didn't shoot as well or defend as well last year in each of their first full years in the league.

[AtheJ415]

My issue with TJ is that he's just needed the 3 point jumper for a few years now and his release isn't broken so I don't understand the lack of improvement. I know his D isn't good either but nobody's on this team is and we had a yoga instructor coach so truthfully this will be the first year we really get a good look on what we have on that end imo.

[AtheJ415]

Trading away Warren, a proven player who is an efficient scorer, and then assuming a non-shooting Jackson is going to fill his role is asinine. These Jackson bandwagon fans are crazy to even think he will be a starter. People love his highlight blocks but somebody out to create a follies tape of Jackson with all his bricks and defensive lapses. Right now Bender and Jackson look like third string players.

What exactly does Warren do that Jackson doesn't? Jackson is a better athlete, a better ball handler, a better defender, better passer, better BBIQ, more vocal leader, younger, and the list goes on. They both struggle shooting its not like TJ has an advantage over JJ here. JJ clearly has the potential to everything TJ does and more. And if you wanna talk about fans watching JJ's blocks and not his defensive follies; unlike TJ, at least JJ HAS BLOCKS TO WATCH!!!

True Shooting - TJ .542 JJ .480
Free Throw - TJ .757 JJ .634

Right there is enough to show JJ's offensive game is atrocious. A .480 true shooting and its not improving at all during summer league against lesser opponents. Summer league shooting stats

.250 on 7-28 shooting
.111 on 1-9 three pointers
.636 on 7-11 free throws

People ragging on Bender rightfully but Jackson deserve even more because he's older than Bender. If fans think we should trade Warren to make room for Jackson that's a big mistake. Anybody who has Jackson in their starting lineup is a fool too. He was benched for a reason last season. He was also gifted minutes last year when Warren and Booker were sat down for the Ayton tank.

Summer League has been absolutely meaningless in its history. Horrible players have looked like future stars. Future stars have looked horrible. It happens every year, and while I understand that it is still better to do well in summer league than to do badly, judging shot improvement by such a small sample size is pointless. The regular season will be the real benchmark, and just looking at him his form is at least better, which is an improvement even if the numbers don't show it yet. I don't think he'll have a good jumper for another couple seasons. It takes time, and his hitch requires a lot of reps to remove and feel comfortable with the new release. The new hair also requires some getting used to since he was probably a little further forward when he had the fro.

[Kjdills13]

PLEASE READ

Don't want to burst bubbles , but people who think a COACH is going to make a player a better shooter is delusional , all of these players have been getting coached by competent coaches for many years now. The value is in the scheme and system (fit) a coach brings very little fundamental improvements.

It is very rare at this stage in a players career "unless that player works his butt off on his own" that a player BECOMES a good shooter. Just like it's rare for a QB to become "more accurate"

[BobbieL]

PLEASE READ

Don't want to burst bubbles , but people who think a COACH is going to make a player a better shooter is delusional , all of these players have been getting coached by competent coaches for many years now. The value is in the scheme and system (fit) a coach brings very little fundamental improvements.

It is very rare at this stage in a players career "unless that player works his butt off on his own" that a player BECOMES a good shooter. Just like it's rare for a QB to become "more accurate"

google Chip Engelland.

[AtheJ415]

PLEASE READ

Don't want to burst bubbles , but people who think a COACH is going to make a player a better shooter is delusional , all of these players have been getting coached by competent coaches for many years now. The value is in the scheme and system (fit) a coach brings very little fundamental improvements.

It is very rare at this stage in a players career "unless that player works his butt off on his own" that a player BECOMES a good shooter. Just like it's rare for a QB to become "more accurate"

You must have missed the Watson years.

[Barkley6]

PLEASE READ

Don't want to burst bubbles , but people who think a COACH is going to make a player a better shooter is delusional , all of these players have been getting coached by competent coaches for many years now. The value is in the scheme and system (fit) a coach brings very little fundamental improvements.

It is very rare at this stage in a players career "unless that player works his butt off on his own" that a player BECOMES a good shooter. Just like it's rare for a QB to become "more accurate"

Sorry, that's just not true. Maybe a head coach isn't going to be working with his players on this, but almost every staff employs a shooting coach for this very reason, to correct people's shot mechanics, help them speed up their release, etc., yes it requires a player to work hard, but to say that coaching can't improve shooting is one of the dumbest things I've heard on this board.

Also, scheme and system can also improve shooting % by putting players in positions to take shots they are comfortable with and in good rhythm.

Sounds like you're the one who is delusional.

[oddity]

PLEASE READ

Don't want to burst bubbles , but people who think a COACH is going to make a player a better shooter is delusional , all of these players have been getting coached by competent coaches for many years now. The value is in the scheme and system (fit) a coach brings not the fundamental improvements.

It is very rare at this stage in a players career "unless that player works his butt off on his own" that a player BECOMES a good shooter. Just like it's rare for a QB to become "more accurate"

I mean, the Lakers are somehow allowing Lonzo to play on with that atrocious so-called jumpshot of his. Philly mismanaged the Fultz situation. Paul George had some shooting woes a few seasons back when he tried to change his jumper - where was the coaching staff then? It obviously depends on the management, and looooots of teams' management is incompetent. As for us, we have a coach who just worked Ricky Rubio, Joe Ingles, and Rudy Gobert (FTs), into the best shooting years of their careers. I'm cautious of course, but I'm hopeful.

[BobbieL]

Gambo is saying that the Suns are trying to create aspot on the roster with a trade
(I don't get why they need to create a roster spot - the trade would bring back a a player but oh well..)

Gambo is saying Chriss was told to stay away from summer league as he was not in shape

Gambo thinks they need a true PF.

[NTB]

Gambo is saying Chriss was told to stay away from summer league as he was not in shape

Again?