2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part II

[lilfishi22]

Good few weeks off work and detoxed from Suns misery. Right back into the fire

Good to see you back as well GOK from your extended break

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Ryan Dunn is just AWESOME!!!
He should be off the table in any trades and a definitive core piece going forward!!
# NEW TWINS!!

[Ghost of Kleine]

Good few weeks off work and detoxed from Suns misery. Right back into the fire

Good to see you back as well GOK from your extended break

Thanks! Life always provides adventures and challenges ...huh?...lol

[Steve Nashidis]

Many teams take advantage of mid-season opportunities to trade for players, shifting into championship mode. The Boston Celtics, for example, acquired Porzingis and Holiday for minimal cost or a weaker talent package.

I don't care if Pat Riley or Billy Donovan want more leverage in negotiations or they need to be on top of the table.

All I need is the total effort from our organization to win the first championship. Ishbia should capitalize on Jimmy Butler's situation, just as many other teams have done with other stars in bad teams. And Yes for the first time we should take more talent in some trades.

It’s worth noting that Apron 2 rules came into effect after Adam Silver’s favorite teams—like the Spurs, Heat, Lakers, and GSW—passed their prime. And that's unfair.
I’m thinking of various cap space strategies that could give us the edge in making a deep playoff run.

Richard isn’t the starting center we need, but he’s an excellent backup. However, we need a stronger solution at this critical position, especially considering the talent level of other Western Conference teams.

Jimmy Butler is the key to unlocking our full potential.

Now imagine a gritty five-man hustle lineup with Allen, Okogie, Butler, Dunn, and Plumlee chasing down the OKC squad trying to be the next "bad boys."

Greetings from Europe

[lilfishi22]

Read on Twitter

Ryan Dunn is just AWESOME!!!
He should be off the table in any trades and a definitive core piece going forward!!
# NEW TWINS!!

I know he isn't on a peasant salary like regular folk but he isn't generationally cashed up either so it's kinda cool to see he has a "regular" car

[Puff]

I wonder had we never made the Beal trade, and we were to offer Allen, Royce and Nurkic for Butler, maybe along with swaps we gave for Beal and a few 2nds, if that would get Butler.

We'd have little for depth, but I guess we would have

Jones
Booker
Butler
KD
Plumlee

Morris
Lee
Okogie
Dunn
Oso

This may be where we'd be at this point without the Beal trade and just let Paul/Shamet expire. We might have another MLE type player...some ok guy in the depth that could be here or in the trade.

Or maybe they would want Oso or Dunn and we could keep Royce or Allen.

That is why that everyone, but you did not want the Beal trade. Have you ever stopped saying that it was a great trade and the best we could have done at the time?

It may have been the worst trade we have made in history. While I am concerned about a Butler trade, he might fit in just fine with this unlikeable team we have to watch.

I would like to see Grant Williams in the trade with Charlotte even if we have to wait until next year to see him in uniform.

No, I won't change my opinion because you want me to. Why do you care that I liked the trade?

That I thought it was a great trade? Beal has been balling. He has off nights, but he has played well a lot...scoring a lot, shooting high %s most nights. He's been playing well, despite being overpaid.

No, I still think it was lopsided trade at the time. Wizards fans were made they got so little too. Could you imagine us getting that package for Book in a year?

My point was really that if we didn't have Beal we might have been able to offer a trade that could be more appealing, however, our depth would be horrible.

The KD was obviously the worst one. I mean that had to be one of the most lopsided trades of all time.

Beal may have what many consider the worst contract, but as I've mentioned many times, we didn't have any moves to make after trading half our team and all our picks for KD, because we had his contract and Book's, with the Book supermax kicking in and Paul/Shamet bad contracts with negative value that no one wanted. So either we let them expire and get nothing....add no talent and still have no cap space. I didn't think we'd get a talented player because Shamet and Paul's huge negative value. So I thought we had no way to add anyone. The fact we were able to add a player as talented as Beal for those guys was crazy to me.

But yeah, the only reason it was possible was because he had a really bad contract and that NTC no team wanted.

Anyway, you don't have to be so angry that's my opinion. I know many don't like the trade, and many casuals around the league think it was a terrible trade too (though most of them don't understand our cap predicament, thinking we'd otherwise have cap space).

I've posted many times we didn't have cap space, but sometimes still seem to post things like "we should have used that "money" on other players". Sure, that would be nice if it was possible.

I liked Paul probably even more than you did, and if you think we should have kept him, that's your opinion, but something visibly happened in the Mavs series that turned him into a guy that could score at will in the midrange and take over games, to a guy that couldn't do that anymore...couldn't move the right way...he said he had injured his hip. Then they attacked him on D.

Game 2 he was still great. But game 3 he suddenly turned into a different player with 7 turnovers, 4 assists, 4 fouls, and half his shots were 3s...he stopped going to his money midrange...he had just dominated from there in game 2.

Then in game 4 he was so visibly frustrated he fouled out. He took 4 total shots in 23 minutes, making 1 3 ptr and 1 2 pt basket.

Game 5, 7 pts, 4 turnovers, Game 6, 13 pts (3-5 from 3 but only made 1 of his midrange shots), 4 ast, 5 turnovers. Game 7 10pts, 4 assists.

Those were 5 games from a guy who was dominating as recently as game 2, being a master mid range guy, etc. Those are just his stats...Luka attacked on D knowing he was injured.

And he never got to be that mid range guy he could.

That clutch shooting to close out games.....the greatness we all watched was gone.

Sure he can still have 8-10 ast games, shoot some 3s at maybe a decent %, and is a great mentor/iq guy, but his on court tangible impact was pretty much gone.

If you hate Beal so much making that money. Do you really want Butler making $56 million a year at 36 and 37?

Damn - I forgot -you are never wrong about anything - it was a horrible move - CP3 assists to turn over ratio is better this year than Tyus Jones - He is not cooked. CP3 actually plays and played 4th quarters.

and no I do not want Butler - but I think Ish, Book and KD all want him -

Miami is one of the teams - the great Bradley Beal would go to in a trade.

Everything was wrong on the KD and Beal trades - but that is where we are and I will not be surprised if we somehow end up with Butler.

[lilfishi22]

Many teams take advantage of mid-season opportunities to trade for players, shifting into championship mode. The Boston Celtics, for example, acquired Porzingis and Holiday for minimal cost or a weaker talent package.

I don't care if Pat Riley or Billy Donovan want more leverage in negotiations or they need to be on top of the table.

All I need is the total effort from our organization to win the first championship. Ishbia should capitalize on Jimmy Butler's situation, just as many other teams have done with other stars in bad teams. And Yes for the first time we should take more talent in some trades.

It’s worth noting that Apron 2 rules came into effect after Adam Silver’s favorite teams—like the Spurs, Heat, Lakers, and GSW—passed their prime. And that's unfair.
I’m thinking of various cap space strategies that could give us the edge in making a deep playoff run.

Richard isn’t the starting center we need, but he’s an excellent backup. However, we need a stronger solution at this critical position, especially considering the talent level of other Western Conference teams.

Jimmy Butler is the key to unlocking our full potential.

Now imagine a gritty five-man hustle lineup with Allen, Okogie, Butler, Dunn, and Plumlee chasing down the OKC squad trying to be the next "bad boys."

Greetings from Europe

I think if we were in a better salary cap position, it would absolutely be wise to use our resources (ie Ishbia's willingness to spend) to get that disgruntled star but I just don't feel like we're necessarily a Jimmy Butler away from reaching the top tier of competition. If we were say, 2nd or 3rd in the West and the advance metrics support us being an elite team missing an edge, I'd take the gamble. But it's mid-Jan and we're under .500 and deep in the 2nd apron. This is a very different situation to when we got KD or even Beal.

I like Jimmy and have always liked the fire he brings to every team, especially in the playoffs. But we're not even a for sure playoff team right now and to me, Jimmy represents all the good and bad of chaos that he brings. I'm of the thinking that we need to get our own house in order first before we bring more chaos into the fold.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Terrible timing for their championship contention hopes! Luckily for them, We have a solution for their center/ frontcourt dilemma!
Since Hartenstein can play at the forward spot, Nurkic could help give them more size up front again and fill the gap in production they'll miss with Holmgren out for the next couple of months! This summer, Nurkic becomes a 19 million expiring they can flip for more assets too. The deal becomes:

Nurkic/ 2 2nds (from Tyus or Morris trade) for Joe/ Dieng.
- Taking Joe back shaves two years off what they'd be paying Joe (at 12.5 million. And for us, he'd replace Allens' shooting, allowing us to move him in a trade for anything else we need. Like maybe the Washington trade for Valuncias/ Davis. Or to Orlando for more draft assets (maybe Denver 25' 1st or multiple 2nds)??
- Taking Dieng back is for salary matching. But Dieng at 6'10 220 lbs long, mobile, lanky, and athletic would give us a giant wing option with solid defensive potential ala a young Nik Batum??

*** We could also just consider keeping Allen and flipping Joe to either:
1 -Washington for Valuncias/ filler.
2 -Portland for Thybulle?
3 -Atlanta for Nance Jr.
4 -Toronto for Boucher/ Mogbo??
5 -Orlando for Howard/Joseph/ Houston/ Denver 25' 1st (top 5 protected) or two 2nds??

[lilfishi22]

Read on Twitter

Terrible timing for their championship contention hopes! Luckily for them, We have a solution for their center/ frontcourt dilemma!
Since Hartenstein can play at the forward spot, Nurkic could help give them more size up front again and fill the gap in production they'll miss with Holmgren out for the next couple of months! This summer, Nurkic becomes a 19 million expiring they can flip for more assets too. The deal becomes:

Nurkic/ 2 2nds (from Tyus or Morris trade) for Joe/ Dieng.
- Taking Joe back shaves two years off what they'd be paying Joe (at 12.5 million. And for us, he'd replace Allens' shooting, allowing us to move him in a trade for anything else we need. Like maybe the Washington trade for Valuncias/ Davis. Or to Orlando for more draft assets (maybe Denver 25' 1st or multiple 2nds)??
- Taking Dieng back is for salary matching. But Dieng at 6'10 220 lbs long, mobile, lanky, and athletic would give us a giant wing option with solid defensive potential ala a young Nik Batum??

*** We could also just consider keeping Allen and flipping Joe to either:
1 -Washington for Valuncias/ filler.
2 -Portland for Thybulle?
3 -Atlanta for Nance Jr.
4 -Toronto for Boucher/ Mogbo??
5 -Orlando for Howard/Joseph/ Houston/ Denver 25' 1st (top 5 protected) or two 2nds??

It's not a new injury, it's the same one he had from near the start of the season. It's just saying now it's within the window for an update on his return from injury. They don't need Nurk

Holmgren (hip) joined the Thunder for their four-game road trip that began Wednesday and is beginning to increase his physical activity, Joel Lorenzi of The Oklahoman reports.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

Terrible timing for their championship contention hopes! Luckily for them, We have a solution for their center/ frontcourt dilemma!
Since Hartenstein can play at the forward spot, Nurkic could help give them more size up front again and fill the gap in production they'll miss with Holmgren out for the next couple of months! This summer, Nurkic becomes a 19 million expiring they can flip for more assets too. The deal becomes:

Nurkic/ 2 2nds (from Tyus or Morris trade) for Joe/ Dieng.
- Taking Joe back shaves two years off what they'd be paying Joe (at 12.5 million. And for us, he'd replace Allens' shooting, allowing us to move him in a trade for anything else we need. Like maybe the Washington trade for Valuncias/ Davis. Or to Orlando for more draft assets (maybe Denver 25' 1st or multiple 2nds)??
- Taking Dieng back is for salary matching. But Dieng at 6'10 220 lbs long, mobile, lanky, and athletic would give us a giant wing option with solid defensive potential ala a young Nik Batum??

*** We could also just consider keeping Allen and flipping Joe to either:
1 -Washington for Valuncias/ filler.
2 -Portland for Thybulle?
3 -Atlanta for Nance Jr.
4 -Toronto for Boucher/ Mogbo??
5 -Orlando for Howard/Joseph/ Houston/ Denver 25' 1st (top 5 protected) or two 2nds??

It's not a new injury, it's the same one he had from near the start of the season. It's just saying now it's within the window for an update on his return from injury. They don't need Nurk

Holmgren (hip) joined the Thunder for their four-game road trip that began Wednesday and is beginning to increase his physical activity, Joel Lorenzi of The Oklahoman reports.

My bad! read that wrong. I might be just a bit anxious to make something happen with Nurkic and a trade to try and shore up things or give us some assets to use.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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This would really suck for us if either Cali team landed Vucevic. BUT......................... It would distract them from pursuing Valuncias and maybe Richards, giving us a much better chance to land one or both hopefully. Again with my preference being:

** Trade Tyus Jones or Monte Morris for a late 1st. Trade some combination of Plumlee, Bol Bol, D Lee, etc for whatever 2nds you can get and attach those 2nds to Nurkic for this trade.

1- Charlotte. Okogie/ 2 2nds for Richards/ S Curry or Smith Jr.

2- Washington. Nurkic/ 2 2nds for Valuncias/ Davis.

Vet minimum signings (currently unsigned)

- Mike Muscala: Replaces Bol Bol.
- Olivier Sarr: Replaces Plumlee.
- Markelle Fultz: Replaces Jones or Morris?

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

That is why that everyone, but you did not want the Beal trade. Have you ever stopped saying that it was a great trade and the best we could have done at the time?

It may have been the worst trade we have made in history. While I am concerned about a Butler trade, he might fit in just fine with this unlikeable team we have to watch.

I would like to see Grant Williams in the trade with Charlotte even if we have to wait until next year to see him in uniform.

No, I won't change my opinion because you want me to. Why do you care that I liked the trade?

That I thought it was a great trade? Beal has been balling. He has off nights, but he has played well a lot...scoring a lot, shooting high %s most nights. He's been playing well, despite being overpaid.

No, I still think it was lopsided trade at the time. Wizards fans were made they got so little too. Could you imagine us getting that package for Book in a year?

My point was really that if we didn't have Beal we might have been able to offer a trade that could be more appealing, however, our depth would be horrible.

The KD was obviously the worst one. I mean that had to be one of the most lopsided trades of all time.

Beal may have what many consider the worst contract, but as I've mentioned many times, we didn't have any moves to make after trading half our team and all our picks for KD, because we had his contract and Book's, with the Book supermax kicking in and Paul/Shamet bad contracts with negative value that no one wanted. So either we let them expire and get nothing....add no talent and still have no cap space. I didn't think we'd get a talented player because Shamet and Paul's huge negative value. So I thought we had no way to add anyone. The fact we were able to add a player as talented as Beal for those guys was crazy to me.

But yeah, the only reason it was possible was because he had a really bad contract and that NTC no team wanted.

Anyway, you don't have to be so angry that's my opinion. I know many don't like the trade, and many casuals around the league think it was a terrible trade too (though most of them don't understand our cap predicament, thinking we'd otherwise have cap space).

I've posted many times we didn't have cap space, but sometimes still seem to post things like "we should have used that "money" on other players". Sure, that would be nice if it was possible.

I liked Paul probably even more than you did, and if you think we should have kept him, that's your opinion, but something visibly happened in the Mavs series that turned him into a guy that could score at will in the midrange and take over games, to a guy that couldn't do that anymore...couldn't move the right way...he said he had injured his hip. Then they attacked him on D.

Game 2 he was still great. But game 3 he suddenly turned into a different player with 7 turnovers, 4 assists, 4 fouls, and half his shots were 3s...he stopped going to his money midrange...he had just dominated from there in game 2.

Then in game 4 he was so visibly frustrated he fouled out. He took 4 total shots in 23 minutes, making 1 3 ptr and 1 2 pt basket.

Game 5, 7 pts, 4 turnovers, Game 6, 13 pts (3-5 from 3 but only made 1 of his midrange shots), 4 ast, 5 turnovers. Game 7 10pts, 4 assists.

Those were 5 games from a guy who was dominating as recently as game 2, being a master mid range guy, etc. Those are just his stats...Luka attacked on D knowing he was injured.

And he never got to be that mid range guy he could.

That clutch shooting to close out games.....the greatness we all watched was gone.

Sure he can still have 8-10 ast games, shoot some 3s at maybe a decent %, and is a great mentor/iq guy, but his on court tangible impact was pretty much gone.

If you hate Beal so much making that money. Do you really want Butler making $56 million a year at 36 and 37?

Damn - I forgot -you are never wrong about anything - it was a horrible move - CP3 assists to turn over ratio is better this year than Tyus Jones - He is not cooked. CP3 actually plays and played 4th quarters.

and no I do not want Butler - but I think Ish, Book and KD all want him -

Miami is one of the teams - the great Bradley Beal would go to in a trade.

Everything was wrong on the KD and Beal trades - but that is where we are and I will not be surprised if we somehow end up with Butler.

It's not a matter of right and wrong but a difference of opinions. I'm glad CP3 still has a good ast/to ratio since he can't do much else. He is a good

Beal is the player I thought he was. Not perfect, but a solid player. Overpaid. CP3 is a good leader but other players tend to get tired of him, and obviously KD and Book didn't want to play with him anymore and wanted Beal.

But who cares if I like Beal? I have always liked the way he plays. I do agree he is vastly overpaid but I feel that way about a lot of those guys.

You think Paul is still really good. I simply don't, and I loved Chris Paul as a player, but it was obvious that we needed to move on from him. But seriously, none of that really matters. Once the KD trade was made, the Beal trade is pretty much irrelevant. With or without it, it would not make much difference in where we are right now. I think if we simply didn't have Beal, that doesn't make us better.

We definitely don't beat Philly without him. We probably don't beat Atlanta without him. With Book often struggling shooting, it's nice to have Beal to step up. It's nice Book finally shot over 50% against Charlotte and then again vs Atlanta. He hadn't shot over 50% since before Thanksgiving, and and been in a big slump shooting.

I'm really glad he's stepped up his passing, although it does kind of render Tyus Jones irrelevant, particularly as a starter, since if you don't need him as a PG, it would be better to have more defense starting. He has been nice from 3 though. Jones may make better since off the bench as well, if Royce is back....start Royce and Dunn...or maybe Allen as a 2nd guard Have Jones play a bit more with more players who can't create for themselves.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[sunskerr]

In hindsight I would not make the Beal trade, whether or not we are in the second apron. I think it was a double down on what we now know is a bad trade. As someone who thinks we should blow it up, it's not good to have a contract like that on the books.

Plus with those bloody pick swaps we can't really tank in those even years 24, 26, 28 etc. We probably could have called the bluff, too, and not have had to give up anything to get the Wizards off that god awful Beal contract.

The pick swaps and seconds maybe could have been used to build a deeper roster by attaching them to other players in trades for upgrades at different positions.

Also Chris Paul clears Tyus Jones pretty handily..production per dollar he is also way better than Beal lol. I know 2nd apron blah blah it's just funny to look at. Like if we had been able to sign Tyus to start and Paul off the bench, it's probably a better position to be in (being able to actually upgrade positions) than right now if we still have those picks.

I'd also like to post that for whatever reason, Beal is not looking good in advanced stats. He has nice shooting numbers but it's not reflecting in EPM DARKO etc. weird but also I haven't been watching very many games this year because weve been awful, so Im not drawing any conclusions. It's just something to look at and say, well, there's a chance he actually hasn't been that good a player.

But Beal has performed pretty well off the bench so that's been nice to see.

Verdicts still out but I think the impact of the trade is either neutral, or neutral to negative. If Beal becomes a really great sixth man and we can upgrade maybe 2 positions I think it's probably neutral to very small positive. Just really don't want to trade that 31' first because we gotta be real at this point that there's basically nothing we can do to become contenders.

And yeah I just really hate the way Ishbia and Jones think about building a team. It's just gross and wrong.

[bwgood77]

In hindsight I would not make the Beal trade, whether or not we are in the second apron. I think it was a double down on what we now know is a bad trade. As someone who thinks we should blow it up, it's not good to have a contract like that on the books.

Plus with those bloody pick swaps we can't really tank in those even years 24, 26, 28 etc. We probably could have called the bluff, too, and not have had to give up anything to get the Wizards off that god awful Beal contract.

The pick swaps and seconds maybe could have been used to build a deeper roster by attaching them to other players in trades for upgrades at different positions.

Also Chris Paul clears Tyus Jones pretty handily..production per dollar he is also way better than Beal lol. I know 2nd apron blah blah it's just funny to look at. Like if we had been able to sign Tyus to start and Paul off the bench, it's probably a better position to be in (being able to actually upgrade positions) than right now if we still have those picks.

I'd also like to post that for whatever reason, Beal is not looking good in advanced stats. He has nice shooting numbers but it's not reflecting in EPM DARKO etc. weird but also I haven't been watching very many games this year because weve been awful, so Im not drawing any conclusions. It's just something to look at and say, well, there's a chance he actually hasn't been that good a player.

But Beal has performed pretty well off the bench so that's been nice to see.

Verdicts still out but I think the impact of the trade is either neutral, or neutral to negative. If Beal becomes a really great sixth man and we can upgrade maybe 2 positions I think it's probably neutral to very small positive. Just really don't want to trade that 31' first because we gotta be real at this point that there's basically nothing we can do to become contenders.

And yeah I just really hate the way Ishbia and Jones think about building a team. It's just gross and wrong.

I agree if we are blowing it up, in hindsight I wouldn't have done it. If we are not, then I don't think we would be in a different position anyway. I think at the time, given what we had already done, it was a no brainer.

I know some of the advanced stats don't like him because he doesn't get to the line a lot and doesn't rack up as many assists, which are two important things for advanced stats though. I think he could garner more assists, and probably would if the bigs could finish easy feeds he get them, but obviously that doesn't help. I appreciate his scoring playstyle more though because I really am not a fan of flopping, etc, fishing for fouls and trying to throw up a shot if you think you can draw a foul rather than simply make a shot. But given the way the NBA is, I suppose it's smart to do, so you get those free throws, and it's nice for those advanced stats. I just don't really enjoy watching people falling down often when they shoot a 3 or whatever if they get grazed on the arm and play soft like that. It's probably just from growing up watching tougher NBA players....Jordan or even Kobe, who I never liked, but these guys would never fall down on arm grazes on shots. They just wouldn't do it. They would find it absurd and ridiculous...makes me think of that "SOFT' gif from Kobe. It feels embarrassing. However, given what they call, it's smart, to maybe get those free throws. Just not something particularly fun to watch for me. I want them to just play.

But yeah, those fan created stats like LEBRON, for example, have looked at it. I've never thought those catch all metrics really gave too much insight. I like to look at various single advanced stats like efficiency, which the free throws kind of save Booker on, so that's good. But Harden kind of started that, and it never really matters if he can't shoot, if he can flop and draw fouls or figure out how to get them. I know (think) you were always a big Harden fan. I did like him a lot until his playstyle changed to just go for fouls. Anyway, I know that's the way to take advantage of the rules and it's smart, so it's not like I can really say it shouldn't be done, even if it makes the game a lot less fun to watch for me personally. Beal has simply been good at a lot of things, his activeness on D, getting steals, blocks, getting to the rim, shooting, etc, for the most part, but yeah, those catch all stats won't match eye test with a lot of players.

They also depend on who you play with, teams you have played with and against. But the good thing is I think it helps Book's value even if we know he was never really a big impact player without Paul.

The big plus and encouraging thing lately with Book though is the assists and really wanting to set up for others, to get more involved. I think if we stay the course that will help us. I think both things help...Beal's talents can help more from the bench given we have Book and KD. We can stagger even a bit better than we were. I do kind of wish we wouldn't have promised to start Jones though, because given Booker's passing acumen as of late, I'd put 2 of Royce/Allen/Dunn in the starting lineup...and sub in those other playmakers when people sub out.

I can certainly understand with hindsight not wanting the Beal trade, given how we are playing and what it looks like our futures are. But we also secondarily swapped those picks with Memphis, to obtain seconds. I don't know that Washington will be good enough to execute the swaps anyway, at least not all of them, but Memphis being able to (in addition to Brooklyn in 28), sucks. Even if we didn't trade Beal, had we still done the Memphis swaps, those are the ones that hurt, which had nothing to do with the Beal trade...and the 28 swap is with Brooklyn first. I have a feeling we end up with Memphis/Brooklyn picks in our swap years, not Washington. So Memphis being able to swap in 2026 and 2030 is the worst...not Washington. They could definitely be better by 2030, but I think the Brooklyn 28 swap, Memphis 26 swap and Memphis 30 swaps are the 3 worst parts of the swaps. So with Washington, it's mainly the 2nds that we traded, but those are crapshoots.

The contract doesn't really matter though (or production per dollar) since we were not operating under the cap, unless you are concerned with Ish saving money..except for trade value, but we knew it was a bad contract...we were not getting a good contract for what we traded out.

But obviously the KD trade was the killer. Once that happened, if we didn't win that championship in the next 1-2 years like many were expecting, it was obviously a bad trade. To think we are maybe tripling down to trade another pick, is ludicrous.

[lilfishi22]

If we're going by hindsight, we should've shipped DA off after the Finals when his value was the highest. Or better yet....not draft him. Or better yet, resign Joe Johnson. Or better yet....how far back should we go back with hindsight?

[AtheJ415]

If we're going by hindsight, we should've shipped DA off after the Finals when his value was the highest. Or better yet....not draft him. Or better yet, resign Joe Johnson. Or better yet....how far back should we go back with hindsight?

Draft Haliburton. Was the obvious move.

Haliburton
Booker
Bridges
Cam
Ayton

That team plays hard because Mikal and Cam do. We traded it for a lazy prima donna who is too cool to lead because he "shouldn't have to".

[AtheJ415]

This team plays, and has played, exactly how a team led by KD would play. We need leadership desperately. I do not care how KD pays,, if he isn't going to even lead by example and get on the glass o stop chucking the ball all over the court, then he can get off this team. They are so awful to watch. You cannot root for these pretentious dickheads

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[sunskerr]

If we're going by hindsight, we should've shipped DA off after the Finals when his value was the highest. Or better yet....not draft him. Or better yet, resign Joe Johnson. Or better yet....how far back should we go back with hindsight?

Everything we've done since the finals 2021 has been because we didn't take Doncic (to a lesser extent Haliburton). Doncic being the playmaker to share the load with Booker. And KD being a solution to not having that.

That causes us to trade literally everything from our assets to get a star next to Booker. Which resulted in having literally zero NBA level rotation players around the main 4 guys. In other words we needed another year/off-season to add more assets to be able to sustain a real rotation after trading for a star.

At some point you have to learn from your mistakes, so that's why hindsight is valuable. Otherwise you're just being a [redacted] and end up doubling down (like if we trade for Butler and use the rest of our picks).

And with respect to Butler (or without him, even), any scenario where we get Butler and don't win a championship, even if it improves the team and we make a conference finals or finals, is a total failure at this point.